Official v7.0.0 Patch Discussion Thread

shrooby

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GRimer
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shrooby
#1
More swords!

Here is the patch notes thread;
https://smashboards.com/threads/v7-0-0-patch-notes.498869/

We will hand out large warnings and/or temporary bans to those who stifle this process of patch exploration
Some examples include
1. Posting false changes, good intentions or not.
2. Asking if anything has changed when the patch notes are there for you to read.
3. Immature behavior and complaining over the patch changes.

When checking changes, remember that Ultimate has many different damage multipliers.


  • Percent values taken from proper matches (non-training mode) have scaling adjustments based on it's current freshness; a 1% difference seen in a match may not be a real patch change and should be double checked before being posted.
  • For aerials remember that aerials performed during a short hop have a x0.85 damage multiplier.
  • Moves deal more damage (x1.2) in 1v1s matches than in matches with more than two players. This multiplier also applies to Training Mode.
~~~~~~~~~

What Nintendo's official patch notes terms mean:

  • "Attack speed" - Startup
  • "Power" / "Attack power" - Damage
  • "Attack range" - Hitbox size
  • "Launch distance" - Base knockback (BKB) and/or Knockback growth (KBG)*
  • "Launch angle" - Knockback angle
  • "Undamaged launch distance" - Base knockback (BKB)
  • "Vulnerability" - Endlag / First active frame (FAF)
  • "Vulnerability when Landing" - Landing lag
  • "Landing time" - Aerial auto-cancel window
  • "Time until launched opponents can move" - Hitstun
  • "Hitstun time" - Hitlag
  • "Hitstun Shuffle Distance" - SDI multiplier
  • "Super armor" - Damage-based armor or knockback-based armor
  • "invincibility" - invulnerability frames
  • "Hit detection" - Active frames
  • "Easier to hit multiple times" - Made hits of a multi-hit move link more reliably

*: Nintendo does not always specify if both BKB and KBG have been changed or just one of them when using the term "launch distance."
 
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Kokiden

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#3
Bayonetta got increased shield size. That's it. She's still bad sigh I'll just accept she's always going to be a pain in the ass to play.

Joker got reduced Arsene time when he gets hit with Arsene out, and range for down gun is reduced. He got nerfed.

Not impressed with this balance patch and I doubt I will for future ones.
 

godogod

Smash Ace
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Messages
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#4
The patch notes can be summarized as, "The size of the shield has been increased." Lool

Sigh not many significant buffs if any.
 

NinfanNanz

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#5
I wouldn't jump the gun yet guys. We don't have any actual frame data or anything on these changes. We just have a poorly translated version of it hahah. let's wait to give our thoughts till after we finish logging every change.
 

Sinister Slush

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#8
Sad there wasn't Banjo fixes or buffs, the increased shield is also indirect nerfs to some characters that tried to shield poke with multihits moves like pit nair Jr. dair or Yoshi dair as a couple of examples.

Slight nerfs to joker and palu is welcomed but now Peach is probably the best character in the game due too the small kicks the other two got to the shin.
 

Anomilus

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#9
Yep, 7.0.0 is the "Less Shield Stabbing" patch. What happened with ESAM vs. MKLeo during Genesis 7 is less likely to happen, among other interactions. (MKLeo shielded ESAM's FAir yet got hit on the very last hit and lost the game. Either he dropped shield at the last second or Pikachu's multi-hit attack stabbed through his shield)
 

Kokiden

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#10
I wouldn't jump the gun yet guys. We don't have any actual frame data or anything on these changes. We just have a poorly translated version of it hahah. let's wait to give our thoughts till after we finish logging every change.
You can try it now. Down gun range is ass. You have to be REALLY close for the guns to hit.

Arsene is gone in the blink of an eye if he gets comboed.

I really despise this whole nerfing business. There's more to come down the line of course *rolls eyes*
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
#12
You can try it now. Down gun range is ass. You have to be REALLY close for the guns to hit.

Arsene is gone in the blink of an eye if he gets comboed.

I really despise this whole nerfing business. There's more to come down the line of course *rolls eyes*
You could always go back to previous games if you don't like nerf patches. No more updates.
 

Kokiden

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#13
You could always go back to previous games if you don't like nerf patches. No more updates.
I'm going to be taking another break from Ultimate. Won't be playing for a long while.

It's the only smash game where I just can't seem to enjoy 100%, and it's the only one where I've had to take multiple breaks from. There's always annoyance tinged in with the experience. I'll just be lurking here.
 
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Axioms

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#16
Samus& Dark Samus:
Dash attack: Base power 7.0/10.0/6.0 > 10.0/10.0/6.0
Zair: Base power 1.5/? > 2.5/4.0
Zair: active on F-8-15/16-17 > F-8-15/16-17-18-19

Sheik:
Down Smash: active on F-11-12/18-19 > F-8-9/15-16
Needle Storm full charge: landing lag F-16 > F-12, FAF-13
Burst Grenade Grounded: FAF-75-104 > FAF-70-99
Burst Grenade Aerial: ? > FAF-79-159

Zelda:
F-tilt: Base power 10.0/12.0 > 11.5/15.0
Nair: landing lag F-15 > F-12, FAF-13
Uair: Base power Sourspot ? < 12.0
Phantom Slash: Base power 4.7/14.1 > 5.9/17.7

Dr.Mario:
F-tilt: Base power 8.2 > 10.5
D-tilt: F-1 is F-1 of D-tilt, on Young Link@0.0%, no DI; YL's FAF-36
Late Nair: Base power 9.4 > 11.7

Young Link:
Jab1: active on F-6 > F-4
Zair: active on F-11 > F-9

Toon Link:
Dash attack: FAF-31 > FAF-29
Bair: active on F-7 > F-6
Late Dair: Base power 12.0 > 14.0

Palutena:
U-tilt Final: Base power 2.5 > 4.5

Ryu:
Early Tatsu Grounded: Base power 9.0 > 11.0
Late Tatsu Grounded: Base power 11.0 > 13.0
Early True Tatsu Grounded: Base power 10.4 > 12.7
Late True Tatsu Grounded: Base power 12.7 > 15.0
Early Tatsu Aerial: Base power 8.0 > 11.0
Late Tatsu Aerial: Base power 10.0 > 12.0
(too many hit boxes with front and back hits, skipping)

Cloud:
Up-smash: active on F-15 > F-12
Climhazzard: grabs ledge on F-24 of Climhazzard

I think I'm done, others can do the rest.
 
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Arrei

Smash Lord
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#17
Hmm... some characters seemed to be omitted from that whole "Increased shield size" party. The Mario Bros, Peach, Fox, FE characters minus Corrin, Isabelle, Incineroar, perhaps a few others. I wonder why that is?
 
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#20
You can try it now. Down gun range is ass. You have to be REALLY close for the guns to hit.

Arsene is gone in the blink of an eye if he gets comboed.

I really despise this whole nerfing business. There's more to come down the line of course *rolls eyes*
These nerfs are more than 100% justified.

Down Gun was one of the only genuine problems with base Joker's kit, as his disadvantage state due to it was almost nonexistent, and it was just a free offstage gimp against characters with weaker recoveries. While Arsene is overdone and needed a nerf in some fashion (and losing him quicker if you lose neutral and get comboed while he's out is completely fair, given how absurdly strong Arsene makes Joker.)

This patch is overall solid, and frankly the only nerfs to top tiers were pretty damn justified. Like yeah I wish Bayo saw some love, but I'm not going to be all butthurt because my main didn't get buffed when a number of other characters got nice improvements.
 
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#22
shrooby shrooby
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus:
  • Dash attack early hit damage 7.0 - > 10.0
  • Z-air damage 1.5/3.0 -> 2.5/4.0
    • Active hit frames 8-17 -> 8-19

:ultsheik:
  • D-Smash startup 11/18 -> 8/15
    • Total frames 51 -> 48
  • Side B (ground) total frames 75-104 -> 69-98
  • Side B (air) total frames 84-154 -> 78-148
  • Side B explosion has two more active hit frames. Frame 50-51 -> 50-53 (from release)
:ultzelda:
  • F-tilt damage 10.0/12.0 -> 11.5/15.0
  • N-air landing lag 15 -> 12
  • U-air active hit frames 14-16 -> 14-19
    • New late hit on frames 17-19 dealing 12.0 damage
  • Side B explosion active frames (on release) are frame 14-17 -> 14-19
  • Down B damage depending on charge level 4.7 - 14.1 -> 5.9-17.7
:ultdoc:
  • F-Tilt damage 8.2 -> 10.5
  • N-air late hit damage 9.4 -> 11.7
  • D-air active hit frames 16-17 -> 16-19
:ultyounglink:
  • Jab 1 startup 6 -> 4
    • total frames 19 -> 17
    • transitions to jab 2 on frame 7 -> 9
  • Z-air active hit frames 11-18 -> 9-17
:ulttoonlink:
  • Dash attack total frames 30 -> 28
  • B-air startup 7 -> 6
    • Total frames unchanged
  • D-air late hit damage 12.0 -> 14.0
  • Z-air active hit frames 11-18 -> 11-20
:ultpalutena:
  • U-Tilt final hit damage 2.5 -> 4.5
:ultryu:
  • neutral B shieldstun 3-3 -> 8-8
    • True hadoken shieldstun 4-4 ->10-10
  • Grounded Side B damage 9.0-11.0 -> 11.0 - 13.0
    • True tatsumaki damage 10.4 - 12.7-> 12.7 - 15.0
  • Aerial Side B damage 8.0-10.0 -> 10.0 - 12.0
    • True tatsumaki damage 9.2-11.6 -> 11.6 - 13.9
:ultcloud:
  • U-Smash startup 15-> 12
    • Total frames is 48 -> 45
  • Up B grabs ledges as early as frame 28 -> 24
 
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Kokiden

Smash Journeyman
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#23
These nerfs are more than 100% justified.

Down Gun was one of the only genuine problems with base Joker's kit, as his disadvantage state due to it was almost nonexistent, and it was just a free offstage gimp against characters with weaker recoveries. While Arsene is overdone and needed a nerf in some fashion (and losing him quicker if you lose neutral and get comboed while he's out is completely fair, given how absurdly strong Arsene makes Joker.)

This patch is overall solid, and frankly the only nerfs to top tiers were pretty damn justified. Like yeah I wish Bayo saw some love, but I'm not going to be all butthurt because my main didn't get buffed when a number of other characters got nice improvements.
I'm annoyed about it. So what? Not everyone is going to always be giddy with whatever the Smash team put out, and they're not wrong if they don't agree.

Other characters getting buffed doesn't affect my experience with the game, especially if I don't even use them.

I've stuck with Bayo for a year and it was always pure frustration every time I picked up the game. I'm just going to drop her now, since there's just no point in sticking with a character that angers you even if you like them. The people who wanted Bayo completely gutted won, since I'm sure that's exactly what they wanted: for her to be terrible and for people to stop using her so she fades out of existence. I'm sure a lot of people out there are happy about that knowing what this fanbase is like.

It's what I loathe about this community sometimes, people are always asking for nerfs, and the devs always oblige. I would not be surprised if Joker gets slowly worse overtime.

It's bad luck on my end for maining characters that people want nerfed I guess. That can't be helped.
 
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Idon

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#25
Joker got away with a slap on the wrist, so I'm pretty sure Leo and Zackray are gonna stick to them. At least gun down makes sense in that it actually shoots straight down now and isn't maybe the best landing move in the game this side of pikachu quick attack. Getting hit while Arsene was one nerf I didn't expect, but somehow nerfing that mode was at least one thing most people saw coming.

Samuses getting a slew buffs on one hand is great as she's such a poorly represented character, but on another hand laggy wifi Samuses will be even more plentiful and annoying on top of that.

Kid Links didn't really need it, but I'm glad they got stuff. Cloud I was hoping for but didn't think they'd actually do, so that's nice. Shotos continually inexplicably getting stronger as well but nobody used them.

Sheik, Zelda, Dr. Mario, all needed those buffs but honestly they've more or less been replaced with better versions of themselves amd this won't change that.

Overall, pretty decent patch, albeit not one that's going to exactly... affect the meta much.
Sad to say I still want some Marth and Ike buffs, they're not exactly played by anyone in this current meta.
 
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#26
This is pure madness lol.

Shotobuffs.png






You can also special cancel the down smash mid charge, it basically creates a whole new layer of mind games/mix-ups (edit: tho the timing is extremely strict). This is also a pretty unconventional buff, giving the 'special cancelable' property to a move is kind of a big change compare to something like adjusted knockback/damage/range etc. Without the reduced dmg on shield nerf on the down smash it would be broken probably.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
#27
I'm going to be taking another break from Ultimate. Won't be playing for a long while.

It's the only smash game where I just can't seem to enjoy 100%, and it's the only one where I've had to take multiple breaks from. There's always annoyance tinged in with the experience. I'll just be lurking here.
Yeah I agree on you with that, I haven't enjoyed this game like previous entries, doesn't help that my friends aren't into it.
 

xzx

Smash Lord
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#28
Immature Behavior
I'm annoyed about it. So what? Not everyone is going to always be giddy with whatever the Smash team put out, and they're not wrong if they don't agree.

Other characters getting buffed doesn't affect my experience with the game, especially if I don't even use them.

I've stuck with Bayo for a year and it was always pure frustration every time I picked up the game. I'm just going to drop her now, since there's just no point in sticking with a character that angers you even if you like them. The people who wanted Bayo completely gutted won, since I'm sure that's exactly what they wanted: for her to be terrible and for people to stop using her so she fades out of existence. I'm sure a lot of people out there are happy about that knowing what this fanbase is like.

It's what I loathe about this community sometimes, people are always asking for nerfs, and the devs always oblige. I would not be surprised if Joker gets slowly worse overtime.

It's bad luck on my end for maining characters that people want nerfed I guess. That can't be helped.
"Help! I can't get carried by Bayonetta anymore like in Smash 4, and will be less carried by Joker now!"

Joker is still going to be top tier, what are you talking about. It's funny how you call out the devs's nerfs when every top tier that got nerfed (in updates) are still top tier. I want to see more nerfs to Joker and other top tiers so please Sakurai keep 'em coming.

OnTopic: Anyone know if any major bugs was addressed? There's always some.
 

Kokiden

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
440
#30
Flaming
"Help! I can't get carried by Bayonetta anymore like in Smash 4, and will be less carried by Joker now!"

Joker is still going to be top tier, what are you talking about. It's funny how you call out the devs's nerfs when every top tier that got nerfed (in updates) are still top tier. I want to see more nerfs to Joker and other top tiers so please Sakurai keep 'em coming.

OnTopic: Anyone know if any major bugs was addressed? There's always some.
You are the prime example of the type of people I absolutely hate in this community.

It's not about "being carried" or "top tier."

I've had assholes say that **** to me because of my mains and I'm not going to put up with it here.

It's about whether nerfs are truly necessary, and whether a character is actually functional.

I just don't like how people are overly reliant on nerfs and the balance team are aware of that. People just want to see the characters they hate gutted out of spite. You are the prime example of that.

Thing is, I know they're going to oblige types like you anyway.

As for Bayo, I'm not asking her to be top tier so **** off with the carried nonsense. I just want her to work properly.
 

NinfanNanz

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#32
You are the prime example of the type of people I absolutely hate in this community.

It's not about "being carried" or "top tier."

I've had assholes say that **** to me because of my mains and I'm not going to put up with it here.

It's about whether nerfs are truly necessary, and whether a character is actually functional.

I just don't like how people are overly reliant on nerfs and the balance team are aware of that. People just want to see the characters they hate gutted out of spite. You are the prime example of that.

Thing is, I know they're going to oblige types like you anyway.

As for Bayo, I'm not asking her to be top tier so **** off with the carried nonsense. I just want her to work properly.
First off, let's be civil about this. There's no need for this.

Second, Joker just got nerfed, and very slightly. Lucina barely got nerfed when she was super strong. People have been crying for joker nerfs for a while, and they just got the like, way later.

3rd, I think people would rather see their own characters buffed rather than characters be nerfed. Making characters better is a lot more fun than making them worse.
 
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#33
It's about whether nerfs are truly necessary, and whether a character is actually functional.
Then what’s all the drama about? The nerfs were definitely necessary and Joker is still functional.

if you mean nerfs in general being necessary, the answer to that is a loud, resounding “of course they are.” Anybody with the slightest concept of game balance will tell you that.
 

Phoenix_is_OK

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
103
#34
If I can butt in for the Bayonetta thing, she really needs buffs and that is certain. But eh I'm used to it at this point and I won't cry, but if she appears on a patch in the future I will be popping off.

Joker nerf is nothing, down gun was his most "Jesus Christ why is this character legal" move and aside from Tetrakarn I see Joker as a both a top tier character and fair. Down gun NEEDED a nerf and as much as you are entitled to complain I don't think anything is going to change for the character, unlike Palu who's down throw nerf may decimate her at times.

Cloud buff feels nice. I'd say the limit charge helps him more than anything. Full limit charge used to be (iirc) 11 seconds, but it is only 7 now. Point is if you are offstage chances are you can just charge limit into limit up B now, which is pretty insane (half limit to up B is a 3.5 second charge away!). Up smash being a potential OoS option is pretty sweet since I won't have to stale the **** outta Up B anymore.

The Ken buff feels both "why did they do this" and "neat I'm going to use this". Probably won't change anything but hot DAMN is that cool or what?

Sheik may have the biggest jump here. She's already been potentially one of the most buffed and this puts her over the top. Needle kills look free, Dsmash is 3 frames slower for some reason which is sick, side B has less endlag so now you can true combo side b into bouncing fish for some God forsaken reason. I think she's finally in a position where I, massive Sheik pessimist and Smash 4 enthusiast, would call her viable.
 
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#36
I’m wondering what the point of canceling Ryu and Ken’s down smash is. Is that actually going to be useful or is it just there cause it’s cool?
 
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#37
I’m wondering what the point of canceling Ryu and Ken’s down smash is. Is that actually going to be useful or is it just there cause it’s cool?
Because it's cool is a good reason for a lot of things, but there is actual value in canceling it into things.
It's essentially free pressure off a relatively fast attack (5 frames to hit) as you can instantly move from hitting with the smash (Or charging as a fake out) into a number of moves (Hadoken/Shakunetsu Hadoken/Tatsumaki Senpukyaku/Shoryuken). Street Fighter is all about hit confirms and they just gave Ryu/Ken another good one.
 

Broom

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#39
Ryu and Ken could special cancel sweeps in SF2. Makes sense they should do it here since they're primarily based off of those versions of themselves. Now we just need super meters.
 
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Joined
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Messages
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#40
I’m wondering what the point of canceling Ryu and Ken’s down smash is. Is that actually going to be useful or is it just there cause it’s cool?
Because it's cool is a good reason for a lot of things, but there is actual value in canceling it into things.
It's essentially free pressure off a relatively fast attack (5 frames to hit) as you can instantly move from hitting with the smash (Or charging as a fake out) into a number of moves (Hadoken/Shakunetsu Hadoken/Tatsumaki Senpukyaku/Shoryuken). Street Fighter is all about hit confirms and they just gave Ryu/Ken another good one.
It also makes down smash the most powerful 'special cancelable' move right now, just a tiny bit stronger than back-air but, arguably, way more reliable. Ryu's uncharged down smash deals roughly 20%, canceled into a true Shoryu it's a quick ~40% in two hits (btw fully charged down smash into true shoryu does ~48% lol, of course no one is going to get hit by that but still this is nuts).

Edit: ...and it'll create new possibilities of shield break set ups like this one:

(b-air > d-smash > true Shoryu)
 
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