Official v6.0.0 Patch Discussion Thread

shrooby

Let me know when I'm supposed to laugh, okay?
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GRimer
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shrooby
#1
We are OK!

Here is the Patch Notes thread:
https://smashboards.com/threads/v6-0-0-patch-notes.492129/

We will hand out large infractions and/or temporary bans to those who stifle this process of patch exploration
Some examples include
1. Posting false changes, good intentions or not.
2. Asking if anything has changed when the patch notes are there for you to read.
3. Immature behavior and complaining over the patch changes.

When checking changes, remember that Ultimate has many different damage multipliers.

  • Percent values taken from proper matches (non-training mode) have scaling adjustments based on it's current freshness; a 1% difference seen in a match may not be a real patch change and should be double checked before being posted.
  • For aerials remember that aerials performed during a short hop have a x0.85 damage multiplier.
  • Moves deal more damage (x1.2) in 1v1s matches than in matches with more than two players. This multiplier also applies to Training Mode.
~~~~~~~~~

What Nintendo's official patch notes terms mean:
  • "Attack speed" - Startup
  • "Power" / "Attack power" - Damage
  • "Attack range" - Hitbox size
  • "Launch distance" - Base knockback (BKB) and/or Knockback growth (KBG)*
  • "Launch angle" - Knockback angle
  • "Undamaged launch distance" - Base knockback (BKB)
  • "Vulnerability" - Endlag / First active frame (FAF)
  • "Vulnerability when Landing" - Landing lag
  • "Landing time" - Aerial auto-cancel window
  • "Time until launched opponents can move" - Hitstun
  • "Hitstun time" - Hitlag
  • "Hitstun Shuffle Distance" - SDI multiplier
  • "Super armor" - Damage-based armor or knockback-based armor
  • "invincibility" - invulnerability frames
  • "Hit detection" - Active frames
  • "Easier to hit multiple times" - Made hits of a multi-hit move link more reliably

*: Nintendo does not always specify if both BKB and KBG have been changed or just one of them when using the term "launch distance."
 
Last edited:
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MrGameguycolor
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#2
HELL YEAH, K. ROOL BUFFS!

Nair's landing lag is much more smoother and has better combos out of the late hit.
Fair actually feels like a move on a heavy.
Blunderbuss come out way faster and the normal shot kannon ball actually kills below 180%!

God bless Sakurai! (I know he doesn't do all the balance changes, but still)
 
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,675
Location
Santa Ana, CA
#3
Who hands out patches at 5 AM?

:ultdk:
  • N-air early hit damage now 12.0 from 11.0
    • Nair late hit damage now 9.0 from 8.0
  • Neutral B takes 121 frames to reach max charge from 131 (counting the +4 frames to automatically exit charge state)
  • Up B (ground) super armor activates on frame 5-17 from 8-17
  • Down B startup now 12/23 from 15/26. In other words startup reduced by 3
    • Total frames now 46 from 57. In other words endlag reduced by 8
    • Extended mashing is still 26 additional frames per rep
:ultkirby:
  • Jab 1 startup now 2 from 3
    • Jab 1 total frames now 14 from 15
  • N-air startup now 8 from 10
    • N-air total frames now 52 from 54
  • U-air startup now 8 from 10
    • U-air total frames now 35 from 37
    • U-air damage now 10.0 from 9.0
  • Neutral B begins inhaling people and objects on frame 10 from 14
:ultjigglypuff:
  • Neutral Air Dodge now 63 total frames from 74
    • Dir. Air Dodge Down now 85 from 102
    • Dir. Air Dodge diagonally down now 96 from 113
    • Dir. Air Dodge left/right now 106 from 122
    • Dir. Air Dodge diagonally up now 132 from 152
    • Dir. Air Dodge up now 158 from 174
  • D-air landing lag now 12 from 15
    • Now autocancels on frame 42 onward from 45 onward
      • ^allowing it to shorthop autocancel
  • Neutral B minimal charge state reached when releasing charge on frame 30 from 33
    • Neutral B full charge state reached when releasing charge on frame 51 from 60
  • Side B shieldstun now 15 from 10, making it 5 frames safer on block.
:ultrobin:
  • N-air startup now 7/20 from 9/22
    • N-air total frames now 47 from 49
  • Neutral B reaches Elthunder charge on frame 33 from 38
    • Archthunder charge on frame 73 from 88
    • Thoron charge on frame 137 from 152 (counting the +4 frames to automatically exit charge state)
  • Side B projectile travels an additional 15 frames, now dissipating on frame 77 from 62. This also Increases its potential reach about half the length of a battlefield platform.
:ultkrool:
  • N-air landing lag now 9 from 13
  • F-air early far hitbox damage now 15.5 from 14.0
    • F-air early close hitbox damage now 13.5 from 12.0
    • F-air early hitboxes last until frame 14 from 13. Late hitbox Damages unchanged
  • U-air late hitbox now lasts until frame 19 from 16
  • Neutral B initial shot startup now 25 from 30
    • Neutral B initial shot total frames now 64 from 69
    • Neutral B transitions to vacuum as early as frame 45 from 50.
  • Neutral B second shot startup now 27 from 36. Throw damage dealt to vacuumed victim on frame 26 from 35
    • Neutral B second shot total frames now 46 from 55
  • Neutral B second shot upward startup now 27 from 35. Throw damage dealt to vacuumed victim on frame 26 from 34
    • Neutral B second shot upward total frames now 53 from 61.
  • Neutral B second shot backward startup now 33 from 41. Throw damage dealt to vacuumed victim on frame 32 from 40.
    • Neutral B second shot backward total frames now 59 from 67
  • Down B reflect window now 5-31 from 5-28
    • counter window for non projectiles unchanged.
    • Counterattack total frames now 37 from 41 (not counting counter freeze frames or counterattack hitlag)
:ultincineroar:
  • Jab 3 damage now 6.7 from 4.7
  • F-air now has a late hitbox lasting on frames 11-14.
    • The damage of this new hitbox is 9.0 for the close hit and 9.6 for the far hit.
  • Neutral B earliest hit damage now 17.0 from 16.0
  • Down B Counter window now 3-27 from 3-22
  • Down B total frames now 53 from 56
  • Down B Counterattack total frames now 25 from 28 (not counting counter freeze frames or counterattack hitlag)
Not a bad patch. Wish more characters were addressed in general but the characters that were are meaningfully different which is seldom the case with these updates. For Kirby I just wish they'd reduce the length of his eating animation for non explosive projectiles. It leaves him wide open and it'd be cool if he could use inhale as a more genuine answer to projectiles. I'm glad they noticed N-air's startup is atrocious but they should have gone as far as 6 if they want it to compete with B-air's applications.
 
Last edited:

NinfanNanz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
482
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#4
Who hands out patches at 5 AM?

:ultdk:
  • N-air early hit damage now 12.0 from 11.0
    • Nair late hit damage now 9.0 from 8.0
  • Neutral B takes 121 frames to reach max charge from 131 (counting the +4 frames to automatically exit charge state)
  • Up B (ground) super armor activates on frame 5-17 from 8-17
  • Down B startup now 12/23 from 15/26. In other words startup reduced by 3
    • Total frames now 46 from 57. In other words endlag reduced by 8
    • Extended mashing is still 26 additional frames per rep
:ultkirby:
  • Jab 1 startup now 2 from 3
    • Jab 1 total frames now 14 from 15
  • N-air startup now 8 from 10
    • N-air total frames now 52 from 54
  • U-air startup now 8 from 10
    • U-air total frames now 35 from 37
    • U-air damage now 10.0 from 9.0
  • Neutral B begins inhaling people and objects on frame 10 from 14
:ultjigglypuff:
  • Neutral Air Dodge now 63 total frames from 74
    • Dir. Air Dodge Down now 85 from 102
    • Dir. Air Dodge diagonally down now 96 from 113
    • Dir. Air Dodge left/right now 106 from 122
    • Dir. Air Dodge diagonally up now 132 from 152
    • Dir. Air Dodge up now 158 from 174
  • D-air landing lag now 12 from 15
    • Now autocancels on frame 42 onward from 45 onward
      • ^allowing it to shorthop autocancel
  • Neutral B minimal charge state reached when releasing charge on frame 30 from 33
    • Neutral B full charge state reached when releasing charge on frame 51 from 60
  • Side B shieldstun now 15 from 10, making it 5 frames safer on block.
:ultrobin:
  • N-air startup now 7/20 from 9/22
    • N-air total frames now 47 from 49
  • Neutral B reaches Elthunder charge on frame 33 from 38
    • Archthunder charge on frame 73 from 88
    • Thoron charge on frame 137 from 152 (counting the +4 frames to automatically exit charge state)
  • Side B projectile travels an additional 15 frames, now dissipating on frame 77 from 62. This also Increases its potential reach about half the length of a battlefield platform.
:ultkrool:
  • N-air landing lag now 9 from 13
  • F-air early far hitbox damage now 15.5 from 14.0
    • F-air early close hitbox damage now 13.5 from 12.0
    • F-air early hitboxes last until frame 14 from 13. Late hitbox Damages unchanged
  • U-air late hitbox now lasts until frame 19 from 16
  • Neutral B initial shot startup now 25 from 30
    • Neutral B initial shot total frames now 64 from 69
    • Neutral B transitions to vacuum as early as frame 45 from 50.
  • Neutral B second shot startup now 27 from 36. Throw damage dealt to vacuumed victim on frame 26 from 35
    • Neutral B second shot total frames now 46 from 55
  • Neutral B second shot upward startup now 27 from 35. Throw damage dealt to vacuumed victim on frame 26 from 34
    • Neutral B second shot upward total frames now 53 from 61.
  • Neutral B second shot backward startup now 33 from 41. Throw damage dealt to vacuumed victim on frame 32 from 40.
    • Neutral B second shot backward total frames now 59 from 67
  • Down B reflect window now 5-31 from 5-28
    • counter window for non projectiles unchanged.
    • Counterattack total frames now 37 from 41 (not counting counter freeze frames or counterattack hitlag)
:ultincineroar:
  • Jab 3 damage now 6.7 from 4.7
  • F-air now has a late hitbox lasting on frames 11-14.
    • The damage of this new hitbox is 9.0 for the close hit and 9.6 for the far hit.
  • Neutral B earliest hit damage now 17.0 from 16.0
  • Down B Counter window now 3-27 from 3-22
  • Down B total frames now 53 from 56
  • Down B Counterattack total frames now 25 from 28 (not counting counter freeze frames or counterattack hitlag)
Not a bad patch. Wish more characters were addressed in general but the characters that were are meaningfully different which is seldom the case with these updates. For Kirby I just wish they'd reduce the length of his eating animation for non explosive projectiles. It leaves him wide open and it'd be cool if he could use inhale as a more genuine answer to projectiles. I'm glad they noticed N-air's startup is atrocious but they should have gone as far as 6 if they want it to compete with B-air's applications.

I agree. I hope they do a balance update soon as well, but most of these characters that were addressed were considered really bad if not meh, so I am glad they got amped up. They wanted to probably get these two characters outta the way, so I hope between now and February (when we are supposedly getting the last character), we get a balance update that buffs everyone.
No one really needs to be nerfed. Id rather characters have dumb stuff, than no one having dumb stuff. Arsene needs a slight nerf, but thats all I feel.
 

S_B

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#5
Who hands out patches at 5 AM?

:ultdk:
  • N-air early hit damage now 12.0 from 11.0
    • Nair late hit damage now 9.0 from 8.0
  • Neutral B takes 121 frames to reach max charge from 131 (counting the +4 frames to automatically exit charge state)
  • Up B (ground) super armor activates on frame 5-17 from 8-17
  • Down B startup now 12/23 from 15/26. In other words startup reduced by 3
    • Total frames now 46 from 57. In other words endlag reduced by 8
    • Extended mashing is still 26 additional frames per rep
:ultkirby:
  • Jab 1 startup now 2 from 3
    • Jab 1 total frames now 14 from 15
  • N-air startup now 8 from 10
    • N-air total frames now 52 from 54
  • U-air startup now 8 from 10
    • U-air total frames now 35 from 37
    • U-air damage now 10.0 from 9.0
  • Neutral B begins inhaling people and objects on frame 10 from 14
:ultjigglypuff:
  • Neutral Air Dodge now 63 total frames from 74
    • Dir. Air Dodge Down now 85 from 102
    • Dir. Air Dodge diagonally down now 96 from 113
    • Dir. Air Dodge left/right now 106 from 122
    • Dir. Air Dodge diagonally up now 132 from 152
    • Dir. Air Dodge up now 158 from 174
  • D-air landing lag now 12 from 15
    • Now autocancels on frame 42 onward from 45 onward
      • ^allowing it to shorthop autocancel
  • Neutral B minimal charge state reached when releasing charge on frame 30 from 33
    • Neutral B full charge state reached when releasing charge on frame 51 from 60
  • Side B shieldstun now 15 from 10, making it 5 frames safer on block.
:ultrobin:
  • N-air startup now 7/20 from 9/22
    • N-air total frames now 47 from 49
  • Neutral B reaches Elthunder charge on frame 33 from 38
    • Archthunder charge on frame 73 from 88
    • Thoron charge on frame 137 from 152 (counting the +4 frames to automatically exit charge state)
  • Side B projectile travels an additional 15 frames, now dissipating on frame 77 from 62. This also Increases its potential reach about half the length of a battlefield platform.
:ultkrool:
  • N-air landing lag now 9 from 13
  • F-air early far hitbox damage now 15.5 from 14.0
    • F-air early close hitbox damage now 13.5 from 12.0
    • F-air early hitboxes last until frame 14 from 13. Late hitbox Damages unchanged
  • U-air late hitbox now lasts until frame 19 from 16
  • Neutral B initial shot startup now 25 from 30
    • Neutral B initial shot total frames now 64 from 69
    • Neutral B transitions to vacuum as early as frame 45 from 50.
  • Neutral B second shot startup now 27 from 36. Throw damage dealt to vacuumed victim on frame 26 from 35
    • Neutral B second shot total frames now 46 from 55
  • Neutral B second shot upward startup now 27 from 35. Throw damage dealt to vacuumed victim on frame 26 from 34
    • Neutral B second shot upward total frames now 53 from 61.
  • Neutral B second shot backward startup now 33 from 41. Throw damage dealt to vacuumed victim on frame 32 from 40.
    • Neutral B second shot backward total frames now 59 from 67
  • Down B reflect window now 5-31 from 5-28
    • counter window for non projectiles unchanged.
    • Counterattack total frames now 37 from 41 (not counting counter freeze frames or counterattack hitlag)
:ultincineroar:
  • Jab 3 damage now 6.7 from 4.7
  • F-air now has a late hitbox lasting on frames 11-14.
    • The damage of this new hitbox is 9.0 for the close hit and 9.6 for the far hit.
  • Neutral B earliest hit damage now 17.0 from 16.0
  • Down B Counter window now 3-27 from 3-22
  • Down B total frames now 53 from 56
  • Down B Counterattack total frames now 25 from 28 (not counting counter freeze frames or counterattack hitlag)
Not a bad patch. Wish more characters were addressed in general but the characters that were are meaningfully different which is seldom the case with these updates. For Kirby I just wish they'd reduce the length of his eating animation for non explosive projectiles. It leaves him wide open and it'd be cool if he could use inhale as a more genuine answer to projectiles. I'm glad they noticed N-air's startup is atrocious but they should have gone as far as 6 if they want it to compete with B-air's applications.
I apologize if I'm missing it in there, but did you get the increased KBG on the kannonball as well?
 

Big O

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#6
6.0 DK changes are detailed below

Punch - Charges 10F faster (120 -> 110).
Fully Charged Punch - KB adjusted (78 KBG, 20 BKB -> 73 KBG, 35 BKB)
Fully Charged Air Punch - KB adjusted (78 KBG, 25 BKB -> 72 KBG, 40 BKB)

Down B - 3F less startup (15 -> 12), 8F less endlag (30 -> 22), and 1F less cooldown in between pairs of slaps (27 -> 26). Hits on frames 12-13, 23-24 with a total duration of 46 frames if you stop at 2 slaps for example.

Nair - Damage increased (11/8 -> 12/9). Hitbox sizes increased (4.5/4.5/5 - > 5/5/5.7). A new frame 10 hitbox (size = 5) was also created that only lasts 1F lol.

Ftilt - KBG increased (55 -> 78)

Grounded Up B - SA window increased (8-17 -> 5-17)
Grounded Up B First Hit - Hitboxes created with 366 launch angle (autolink angle) that only hits airborne
Grounded Up B Final Hit - KB adjusted (170 KBG, 40 BKB - > 157 KBG, 60 BKB)
 

SapphSabre777

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
367
3DS FC
4742-5094-9684
#8
I'm glad they noticed N-air's startup is atrocious but they should have gone as far as 6 if they want it to compete with B-air's applications.
It really doesn't need to at this moment. One change not included above is that its knockback, along with U-Airs, have been buffed absurdly.

N-Air went from 100 KBG to a whopping 117 KBG and U-Air similarly, from 108 KBG to 115 KBG, and now does 10% as opposed to 9%. To put into comparison, the Kirbycord have surmised that N-Air actually manages to do more knockback than B-Air, while also being -2/-3 on shield. U-Air now patches (not fixes, but greatly patches) his vertical can't-do-anything issue by giving him a real U-Air that can juggle and catch opponents in the air. It being faster makes it better as a FF aerial as well, being -3.

With air speed buffs out of the table, the dev team thought of the next best thing: boost his reward at all ranges, and all of it meshes incredibly well for what his gameplan is. I think he'll always struggle with stuff based on it being the archetype assigned, but he is much more fun and rewarding thanks to all these changes. Only time will tell what new combos Kirby has in store with these changes. Until then, watch out for ledgetrap N-Air. Please.

Edit: For source, I used https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Diff/5.0.0 - 6.0.0/Character btw.
 
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S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
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#9
Also, has anyone calculated Terry's weight yet? Wondering where he weighs in , especially compared to Ryu and Ken.
 

Arthur97

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
2,171
#10
Also, has anyone calculated Terry's weight yet? Wondering where he weighs in , especially compared to Ryu and Ken.
I think he is 108 compared to Ryu and Ken being 103. How is he heavier than Ridley and Banjo & Kazooie?
 
Last edited:

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
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#11
I think he is 108 compared to Ryu and Ken being 103. How is he heavier than Ridley and Banjo & Kazooie?
He's going to be an interesting one because his recovery doesn't snap (ala Cloud) so he's going to fall under the same heading of "Incredible neutral but damn near crap in disadvantage state".

I've been watching tournaments where folks picked him up early and players either do pretty well with him or get pushed off the ledge and die horribly.
 
Last edited:

BitBitio

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
64
#12
His recovery though, he can mix it up in a lotta ways. I’ve seen power dunks, power wave stalls, both side specials, and up b to get back. Add to air dodge, quick and strong airs, and decent air speed, and he does fine offstage.
 

Arthur97

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
2,171
#13
Yeah, he has mixups, but I can see him having trouble if forced to go low. His vertical recovery just isn't as impressive as his horizontal.
 

BitBitio

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
64
#14
Fair point. He kinda feels like Banjo in that he has plenty of mixups, but is slow and easy to edgeguard. They both even have an invincible recovery move
 

Arthur97

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,171
#15
I still think Banjo and Kazooie's might be more practical though considering Terry is pretty much stuck to the horizontal.
 
Joined
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MrGameguycolor
Switch FC
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#17
One last K. Rool change:


Gut Check seems to be a slightly better landing option, along with ledge-trapping.
It shouldn't randomly lose to Aether and other moves of that nature when edge-guarding anymore.


Also there's a few other undocumented changes:

-Fox's aerial damaged animation slightly raises his head. (Source)

-ZSS's Flip Kick no longer has a bury hitbox when she lands. (Source)

-A glitch with Snake's C4 where it would keep it's explosion hitbox on the opponent was fixed. (Source)

-A certain hitbox on the first hit of Charizard's Up-Smash that dealt 0% now deals 5% like the rest of the hitboxes. (Source)

-Mii Brawler's Counter Throw has a smaller grabbox, no longer grabbing behind them. (Source)
Wow, they really don't want this move to be good. Then again, most Brawler mains just use Feint Jump. (AKA Flip Kick's brother-in-law)

-Joker F-Smash hurtbox was altered so more moves won't whiff against it. (Source)
 
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