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V 6.0 Buff Discussion

HenryXLII

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At long last our tactician has received some buffs, and some pretty decent ones at that. I would like to discussion as to how this affects Robin overall, and what people think so far.

Nair is faster
-This move comes out almost on frame 7 now. Suffice to say, this increase in speed is very noticeable and is the biggest change Robin got. With this move Robin now has a very strong "get off me" option, and when combined with Up Smash, Robin can actually stop approaches with much more ease now. The move is also significantly better off stage, even in bronze sword form, buffing edge guarding. Lastly, the faster speed means certain combos/follow ups are easier now, such as down throw into nair.

Faster thunder charge speed
-
Robin's thunder projectiles have always been pretty good, but between their low durability and long charge time, they often times never felt very fair when up against other projectiles. While the low durability remains, the faster charge time enables Robin to keep chucking out Elthunder and Arch Thunder with much more ease, improving the match up against zoners (Robin's worst match ups IMO), Less time charging also means more time for set ups, so all and all this is a giant buff.

Forward tilt has more knockback
-Robin's forward tilt was generally used as an option to stop approaches, but it was not very good at it. While it is still not that great at it's job, should you actually land the move your opponent will be put into a tech situation at low percents, or will be knocked off stage at a somewhat awkward angle. I don't see this buff doing wonders for Robin, but it's a nice quality of life change.

Arcfire has better duration
-I am not quite sure what this buff fully means, but I would imagine it means that Arcfire won't just randomly miss the opponent anymore. More consistency on the move is a help seeing as it is a risky move to throw out in neutral. Still, Arcfire keeps missing at point blank for some reason, the change does not seem very clear.

Bronze Sword speeds up Levin cooldown?
-Was this always a thing? I never knew this was a thing, and upon testing it I still am unsure if it is a thing. If it is, it is not very useful as bronze sword smash attacks should never be used in any situation.

Robin is actually pretty good at keep away now thanks to being able to throw thunder based moves around more often, and might actually be able to compete with other projectile characters now. The character still has many faults, but it feels like the original idea of an incredibly powerful zoner who relies on balancing resources is more realized now. I don't think this will bump Robin too far up the tier list, but only time will tell.

Please share your thoughts regarding these buffs and how they have affected you!
 
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I think the arcfire change might be that it travels farther in the air now before disappearing. If that's true, it could have better use offstage.
 

Altais

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Nice to see Robin actually getting attention now. The buff to his neutral special & aerial, in mine opinion, is the best change; since Smash 4, I've always felt that move should have higher startup speed.

Although, it would have been nice for the Levin Sword to finally be available at the start of the match. Also wish they would make his broken tomes more powerful. [EDIT] I also still think Arcthunder needs more hitboxes, for the sake of follow-ups.

Overall, since Smash 4, I have always felt giving Robin's attacks a little more speed would do him wonders--and so far, I think they're moving in the right direction. Hope he gets more buffs in the future.
 
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Nah

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We have confirmed numbers now: https://smashboards.com/threads/v6-0-0-patch-notes.492129/

  • Increased recharging effect smash attacks have on Levin Sword
  • Forward Tilt: Increased knockback
  • Neutral Air:
    • Decreased startup of both hits: 9/22F -> 7/20F
    • Decreased total frames: 49F -> 47F
  • Neutral Special: Shortened charge time for each stage
    • Elthunder: 38F -> 33F
    • Arcthunder: 78F -> 73F
    • Thoron: 152F -> 137F (Counting +4 frames to exit charging state)
  • Side Special: Extended the duration of the initial fireball: 62F -> 77F
Well, except for Ftilt knockback buff, but they'll probably have that eventually and it hardly matters what exactly the number is for that one anyway.

Need to see how it works out in practice, but I doubt that it's going to cause some drastic change in viability. At least it wasn't a slew of useless changes like I was expecting though.

Bronze Sword speeds up Levin cooldown?
-Was this always a thing? I never knew this was a thing, and upon testing it I still am unsure if it is a thing. If it is, it is not very useful as bronze sword smash attacks should never be used in any situation.
It's always been a thing yeah. Bronze sword smash attacks have since Smash 4 accelerated Levin Sword respawn time, but it's easy to not know that since it never provided a big boost, nor do people use bronze smashes much. The buff is probably not going to do much either.
 
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turtle roll

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Had to dust off my account to comment, but I was labing around last night and the buff to arcfire seems great. It pretty much goes about 3/4 FD before disappearing, and can confirm into thoron. Obviously the opponent will have time to react, but it's basically a free kill at 50%+ if you catch someone sleeping on the ledge. From across the stage. Like... we could do that before, sure, but now we can do it from over theeeeeeeeere, with much less strict timing and spacing.

The extra charge speed boost is great as well, and the speed boost to nair is another excellent defensive addition. f-tilt and levin recharge speed are just gravy.
 

HenryXLII

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Between the new range of arcfire, and thunder charging faster, I feel Robin can actually defend themselves against campers. I went against a Simon and didn’t feel totally irrelevant. Dare I say, the matchup might be closer to even now.

Another example was when I was fighting a defensive Terry. Robin can legit charge tier one thunder and throw it at the same speed Terry can throw power waves.

It feels like Robin is at roughly the same strength as before, but the character feels sooooo much better to play. It feels like I am playing a complete character with genuine ups and downs.
 
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Zareidriel

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I'm loving these buffs for our girl so much. Flinging Arcfires halfway across the stage, out over the ledge offstage, or back onto the stage - is tremendously fun and useful. The charge times on Thunder are just glorious.

If anyone's curious I did some testing on the time it takes to recover Levin with consecutive bronze up smashes:

wait - 10s
v4.0 - 7.5s
v6.0 - 6.5s

The difference is really infinitesimal (and approximate) but that's not gonna stop me from throwing in a few extra bronze up smashes here and there.
 

Yonder

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I'm loving these buffs for our girl so much. Flinging Arcfires halfway across the stage, out over the ledge offstage, or back onto the stage - is tremendously fun and useful. The charge times on Thunder are just glorious.

If anyone's curious I did some testing on the time it takes to recover Levin with consecutive bronze up smashes:

wait - 10s
v4.0 - 7.5s
v6.0 - 6.5s

The difference is really infinitesimal (and approximate) but that's not gonna stop me from throwing in a few extra bronze up smashes here and there.
Question, do the bronze sword up smashes have to hit? So when your opponent gets star koed, if you want levin sword quicker, just spam upsmashes in the air?

This patch made me come back to using robin again. Personally all i want back now is c stick levin sword but I'm getting mostly used to a+b levin sword.
 

Zareidriel

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Question, do the bronze sword up smashes have to hit? So when your opponent gets star koed, if you want levin sword quicker, just spam upsmashes in the air?

This patch made me come back to using robin again. Personally all i want back now is c stick levin sword but I'm getting mostly used to a+b levin sword.
Exactly, you don't have to hit anything. It's really a significant enough thing that there are definitely times when it's the optimal action, but it's something that I never see done. Granted it is a difficult thing to integrate into one's play. The only caveat is that it's probably usually a better idea to charge some Thunder, but if your tome is fully charged or perhaps you don't have the time to charge from Arcthunder->Thoron, or if projectiles are less useful or mostly obsolete versus the matchup you're against, throwing in a couple of bronze up smashes might get you Levin that second or two earlier that could make a difference.

Why can't you use c-stick Levin sword? I've always played Robin with my c-stick set to Smash for always-on Levin attacks. Of course you still have to do A+B for those smashed Nairs but otherwise I say go for it.

Personally, all I really want as of now is a longer-duration Arcthunder, deadlier broken tomes, and Levin Sword at the start of the match.
Levin at the start of the match is one QoL change I think would be pretty basic, it was really kind of a dumb design choice I feel like Sakurai put in just to make a "change" to Robin from Smash 4.
 

Nah

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Being able to do Levin aerials with tilt stick again is something that would be nice to see return, although I've gotten used to using smash stick (fortunately Robin's tilts are not a major part of her gameplay, unlike, say Marcina, and smash stick no longer does that thing to your aerial movement like it did in 4).

What I really want though is so some easy way to do Levin Nair. I can't do AB smash worth a **** so.... :c
 

HenryXLII

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I think if I were to buff Robin more I would play it safe and not go too ham. Levin at the start of the game would be nice,

I would make Up-Tilt come out a few frames faster. It’s a really solid anti air that can scoop people behind you, it’s just too slow to be used on a regular basis.

The other change would be to greatly increase the distance of angled elwind. It’s a nice recovery mix up on paper, but the distance it sends you is so minimal you won’t actually get to dodge much of anything. It can also mess up your recovery in general so I never go for it.

(Edit: Another interesting change could be make Elwind now longer put you into free fall. This would let Robin defend themselves while recovering, and could give a solid burst of movement in neutral.)

Lastly I would reduce the endlag on Arcthunder or slightly increase Robin’s speed so that follow ups are actually doable.

I think if Robin became too fast or if the projectiles became too durable after the current set of buffs it would make the character much more campy rather than the mid range fighter they were designed to be.
 
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BlackInk

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I hope Robin becomes more viable with these buffs. They are a pretty interesting character and they stand out from the rest of the cast. Also, why haven’t the smash team start Robin with the Levin sword? It’s a really easy change.
 

Nah

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Also, why haven’t the smash team start Robin with the Levin sword? It’s a really easy change.
It's not really a matter of how easy or hard it is to implement, but rather that they just don't want to do it. Robin would start with the Levin sword in Smash 4, so it not being that way in Ultimate then means that it was a deliberate choice on their part. I don't know why they felt like making this change though, I don't see any particularly good reason for it.
 

BlackInk

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It's not really a matter of how easy or hard it is to implement, but rather that they just don't want to do it. Robin would start with the Levin sword in Smash 4, so it not being that way in Ultimate then means that it was a deliberate choice on their part. I don't know why they felt like making this change though, I don't see any particularly good reason for it.
Smash Ultimate’s design philosophy is absolute ass.
 

Zareidriel

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There are things I like and don't like about the design. Most of the fighting game design choices I honestly love besides that dumb starting bronze. But some of the meta/menu stuff, lack of break the targets, and the whole thing with the Spirits, etc, not a huge fan of.

What I really want though is so some easy way to do Levin Nair. I can't do AB smash worth a **** so.... :c
Yeah I can't AB smash for **** either. Avokha's technique certainly makes this easier, something I'm going to try to practice once I get my B-reverses and such more solid.
 
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