Utility: Thunder VS Elthunder VS Arcthunder VS Thoron ???

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#1
Although I'm fairly new to smash, I've played enough to realize that the various thunder charges that Robin has are integral to their kit. That being said, I don't fully understand the utility of each of the different thunder charges; how do you use each of the different charge levels?

My current understanding (which may be wrong which is probably wrong):

Thunder:
A long range poke that can be used to make openings or obstruct approaches. I think that it is an important neutral tool?​
Elthunder
Tbh I'm not sure how exactly this is supposed to be used. I know it's good—really good—but I don't know how what it's actually meant to do. Right now I mostly use it for sniping people in the air or people trying to recover.​

Arcthunder:
It can be used as a combo tool in some niche situations, and it eats up shields.​

Thoron:
I really only use this exclusively for killing, or if I'm low on tome uses.​
I'd appreciate any opinions or experience you can and want to share about the different thunder charge levels, even if it's just a reiteration of what someone else has said, or a confirmation of something that has been said. The thing that I'm most interested in is learning about when to actually use each of these moves (what situations are they used for, whether it be as generic as neutral or advantage state, or as specific a a particular position relative to your opponent). Anything that these can be used to condition for would also be cool . . . really just anything about them actually, I guess . . . even if it's just which one has the nicest colour in your opinion :ohwell:
 
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YaraNooki

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#2
Thunder: Used for stuffing approaches and forcing approaches. Combos into dash attack at short to mid range. Good against opponents who don’t know how Robin works and just run in. If you can’t afford to wait for Elthunder, throw this out.

Elthunder: Your bread and butter. If you don’t know what kind of charge you need, charge up to this because it’s useful in every match up. Offstage sniping is its obvious use, but it’s also an essential part of your melee game plan. Specifically, Robin often doesn’t have the speed to keep up with opponents who dash, drift, or roll away from her, but Elthunder almost always does. Opponent tries to back roll out of Arcfire? Elthunder. Opponent ate a dash attack/nair and missed their tech? Elthunder covers regular get-up, get-up attack and roll away. Opponent air dodges through your aerial and DI’s away from you? Elthunder to the face (or back). Elthunder is Charge Shot’s little sister and can be used in a similar fashion, or you can just throw it out there because why not.

It’s worth noting that Elthunder is the preferred charge level against opponent’s with reflectors, as Arcthunder and Thoron are often too slow and/or too commital.

Arcthunder: Used for prepping a shield for shield poke (such as with Arcfire), poking through a damaged shield, and setting up a follow-up grab. Best in situations where you are cornering/ledge trapping your opponent (consequently reducing the distance between you and minimizing their available maneuvering space) and for when YOU are being cornered/ledge trapped. Somewhat good defensively against rushdown characters as it forces them into shield and can buy you a few seconds while they wait for their shield to recover.

Thoron: Laggy and committal, but has incredible range and kill power. You can cheese people out with back throw + Thoron and forward throw + Thoron at low percents for free kills (not true combos, ofc, but will kill them if they’re sleeping). Can hit-confirm into it with Arcfire. Thoron beats out or passes through all other projectiles, which helps you secure kills against other zoners. Most importantly, it also outlasts air dodges; if your opponent has no double jump and they’re at medium % offstage, they’re dead and just don’t know it yet.

It’s safe only at mid-long range. If you’re fighting an equal or superior rushdown opponent and don’t think that you’ll have that kind of space, use Elthunder or Arcthunder instead. Holding Thoron effectively removes your other charge abilities until you fire it, which can be a death sentence in aggressive match ups. The only time that Thoron should be charged in these situations is when you’re fighting an extremely small rushdown opponent :ultpichu::ultpikachu: who simply can’t be hit by the other three charges. If this is your only option, you’re in my prayers.

I hope this helps.
 
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#3
Thunder: Used for stuffing approaches and forcing approaches. Combos into dash attack at short to mid range. Good against opponents who don’t know how Robin works and just run in. If you can’t afford to wait for Elthunder, throw this out.

Elthunder: Your bread and butter. If you don’t know what kind of charge you need, charge up to this because it’s useful in every match up. Offstage sniping is its obvious use, but it’s also an essential part of your melee game plan. Specifically, Robin often doesn’t have the speed to keep up with opponents who dash, drift, or roll away from her, but Elthunder almost always does. Opponent tries to back roll out of Arcfire? Elthunder. Opponent ate a dash attack/nair and missed their tech? Elthunder covers regular get-up, get-up attack and roll away. Opponent air dodges through your aerial and DI’s away from you? Elthunder to the face (or back). Elthunder is Charge Shot’s little sister and can be used in a similar fashion, or you can just throw it out there because why not.

It’s worth noting that Elthunder is the preferred charge level against opponent’s with reflectors, as Arcthunder and Thoron are often too slow and/or too commital.

Arcthunder: Used for prepping a shield for shield poke (such as with Arcfire), poking through a damaged shield, and setting up a follow-up grab. Best in situations where you are cornering/ledge trapping your opponent (consequently reducing the distance between you and minimizing their available maneuvering space) and for when YOU are being cornered/ledge trapped. Somewhat good defensively against rushdown characters as it forces them into shield and can buy you a few seconds while they wait for their shield to recover.

Thoron: Laggy and committal, but has incredible range and kill power. You can cheese people out with back throw + Thoron and forward throw + Thoron at low percents for free kills (not true combos, ofc, but will kill them if they’re sleeping). Can hit-confirm into it with Arcfire. Thoron beats out or passes through all other projectiles, which helps you secure kills against other zoners. Most importantly, it also outlasts air dodges; if your opponent has no double jump and they’re at medium % offstage, they’re dead and just don’t know it yet.

It’s safe only at mid-long range. If you’re fighting an equal or superior rushdown opponent and don’t think that you’ll have that kind of space, use Elthunder or Arcthunder instead. Holding Thoron effectively removes your other charge abilities until you fire it, which can be a death sentence in aggressive match ups. The only time that Thoron should be charged in these situations is when you’re fighting an extremely small rushdown opponent :ultpichu::ultpikachu: who simply can’t be hit by the other three charges. If this is your only option, you’re in my prayers.

I hope this helps.
I wasn't expecting so much detail; Thank you so much! :)

I feel like I intuitively used the charges like that, but I didn't have an understanding of why I was doing what I was doing before. Having explanations for each of the different utilities that the charges has makes stuff a lot clearer; I hope that I'll be able to improve my projectile gameplay a bit
 

KatKit

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#4
I don't think the mind games of Thoron have been stressed enough. I charge and hold on to it to make opponents more cautious when their damage is high, then bait their shielding with Nosferatu or a grab. I rarely intentionally use it to kill, but it's a good punishing tool that can also be used as a follow-up to F-air, F-throw, and Arcfire.

Though more often than not, my go-to charges are probably Thunder and Arcthunder.
 
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Nah

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#5
So does Arcthunder combo into stuff? I've heard people say that it does, that it doesn't, and everything in-between.

I can't get anything off an Arcthunder myself, but I want to make sure what the answer is in case it's just me
 
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#6
So does Arcthunder combo into stuff? I've heard people say that it does, that it doesn't, and everything in-between.

I can't get anything off an Arcthunder myself, but I want to make sure what the answer is in case it's just me
It can combo most effectively at mid-range, and sometimes long-range, but it can't combo from close-range distances. This is because arcthunder combos take advantage of the low initial velocity that the projectile has (it starts off slow, then begins to quickly accelerate forward), which means that it must be in the air for a while before a follow-up becomes possible (a way to bipass this is through the exploitation of aerial momentum prior to casting arcthunder. For instance, if you short hop toward your opponent and cast while in the air, you will be able to decrease the minimum distance at which an arcthunder combo is possible—ironically I think this may also increase the maximum distance at which follow-ups are possible. B-reverses are extremely useful for setting up these combos).

For personal reference, I've found that most follow-ups are easiest to do at distances within 400 and 800 units in the training room. It will probably be easiest to practice them around 500 units first, or the blue 5.

The arcthunder combos that I have found to be the most practical:
  • Arcthunder>nosferatu
    • about 400 to 600 units, very character dependent
  • Arcthunder>roll cancelled grab
    • about 300 to 800 units away
  • Arcthunder>fair
    • about 300 to 500
  • Arcthunder>short hop thunder>fair
    • Can be done from 300 to 730, but this is extremely character dependent

^These distances are really rough, as I didn't really lab them out much—they are just the ones that I am most comfortable with. It's worth noting that all arcthunder combos are possible at any percent (for Arcthunder>thunder follow-ups you will need to change how much you dellay the thunder cast, sometimes increases in percent make the combos easier). The distances were done under the assumption that you have no aerial momentum at the time of arcthunder's casting.

Video by MadIceKing about arcthunder combos:
 
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Nah

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#7
Oooooh I see. I was trying to combo off it like in Smash 4, didn't realize that you have to do things from a bit further away now. Thanks!
 

Zareidriel

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#9
I would like to add, I think Thoron is the best of the four in this game, even including the charge time. Thunder and Elthunder are both pretty great for consistent pressure and damage, and are effectively the same move, barring Elthunder's snipe kills off stage and the other numerical differences. Arcthunder does a hefty 26% when you land it; it might have more potential for combos at certain cast ranges (RAR'd S-bair maybe?) but it is indeed difficult to land against much of the cast. Thoron does a very reliable 18%ish (actually not sure in this game) damage that is much easier to land than Arcthunder, in addition to its insane kill power growth at higher percents and off-stage. I've found it tactically beneficial to focus on Thoron charge in many matchups.

Also I'd like to disagree with this:
It’s worth noting that Elthunder is the preferred charge level against opponent’s with reflectors, as Arcthunder and Thoron are often too slow and/or too commital.
only because reflected Elthunders are super dangerous and will kill you early. Against reflectors I'll usually go with Arcthunder since a reflected one is less likely to kill you, or Thoron to try to catch rolls, getups, ledge and air dodges. A reflected Thoron will kill you as hard as Elthunder so be careful with that one too.
 
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#10
I would like to add, I think Thoron is the best of the four in this game, even including the charge time. Thunder and Elthunder are both pretty great for consistent pressure and damage, and are effectively the same move, barring Elthunder's snipe kills off stage and the other numerical differences. Arcthunder does a hefty 26% when you land it; it might have more potential for combos at certain cast ranges (RAR'd S-bair maybe?) but it is indeed difficult to land against much of the cast. Thoron does a very reliable 18%ish (actually not sure in this game) damage that is much easier to land than Arcthunder, in addition to its insane kill power growth at higher percents and off-stage. I've found it tactically beneficial to focus on Thoron charge in many matchups.

Also I'd like to disagree with this:
only because reflected Elthunders are super dangerous and will kill you early. Against reflectors I'll usually go with Arcthunder since a reflected one is less likely to kill you, or Thoron to try to catch rolls, getups, ledge and air dodges. A reflected Thoron will kill you as hard as Elthunder so be careful with that one too.
I think you're the first person I've met that thinks thoron is the best of the charges. I'd be really interested in seeing how you play; you probably have a very different playstyle from me. I like having the added mobility of charge storage cancelling, but at the same time, while it limits your own movment, I can see how having thoron available also limits your opponents movement a lot
 
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Zareidriel

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#11
Mhm, I bet it's a bit different if you don't use Thoron very often - but unfortunately my desire to use Thoron is usually not met by my ability to charge it, except for late in the enemy's stock. I'd say I still use a pretty good mix of all four, leaning toward the easier to charge ones.

And you're right about limiting the opponent's movement, especially at kill percent, they'll often be forced to play more defensively lest you trap them with all them active killin' frames. I'm still not that great at landing Thoron (especially mid-air) but with practice, I'm seeing there are tons of openings that are pretty hard/impossible for enemies to avoid, and early kills to be gotten.
 
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