*Updated 12/08/09*|YLink's Official Stage Ban and Counter Pick Guide!

rhan

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#1
I was looking under the Samus character discussion thread and thought it would be a good idea to discuss stage bans and counter picks for a Young Link player.

What stages would you ban and counter pick aginst each character?


Top Ban and Counter Picks

Fox - B/Yoshi's Story, CP/Kongo Jungle (64)

Marth - B/Yoshi's Story, CP/Pokemon Stadium?

Sheik - B/Final Destination, CP/Pokemon Stadium?

Falco - B/Final Destination, CP/Brinstar

Peach - B/?, CP/Yoshi's Story

Falcon - B/Final Destination, CP/Dreamland (64)?

Jiggs - B/Dream Land (64), CP/Yoshi's Story?

Ice Climbers - B/Final Destination, CP/Yoshi's Story?

Samus - B/Dream Land (64) , CP/Fountain of Dreams

Dr. Mario - B/Yoshi's Story?, CP/Battlefield?

Ganon - B/Yoshi's Story, CP/Dreamland?

Luigi - B/Final Destination?, CP/Fountian of Dreams?

Donkey Kong - B/Yoshi's Story?, CP/Pokemon Stadium?

Mario - B/Yoshi's Story?, CP/Battlefield?

Link - B/?, CP/Battle Field

Pikachu - B/Yoshi's Story?, CP/Dreamland?

Young Link - B/Your Hated Stage, CP/Your Favorite Stage

Roy - B/Yoshi's Story?, CP/Final Destination?

Zelda - B/Fountain of Dreams? , CP/Final Destination?

G&W - B/Final Destination?, CP/?

Ness - B/?, CP/Fountain of Dreams?

Yoshi - B/?, CP/Pokemon Stadium?

Bowser - B/Yoshi's Story?, CP/Final Destination?

Mewtwo - B/?, CP/Yoshi's Story?

Kirby - B/Dream Land (64)?, CP/Yoshi's Story?

Pichu - B/Dream Land (64), CP/Anywhere?

Edit1 :Added all characters to keep this thread going and for more disscussion
Edit2: New Legal Stage list. Thus causing most stages become banned anyway. Let's get to re-discussing!


I'll be updating this list until all characters have been discussed to the fullest.

If you disagree or think that a stage should be put up there for a certain character discuss it. Bring up point and reasons why the stage should be banned/counterpicked for that character. Get to discussing. :)

Key

B = Ban

CP = Counter Pick

? = Not Discussed
 

ChivalRuse

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#2
Against Jiggs CP Corneria for sure. Low ceiling for vertical kills, and plenty of room for projectile camping.

Against Samus I'd ban Poke Stadium because of her platform missile game and the annoying ledges for hookshot.

Against Peach CP Yoshi's story because it minimizes her recovery effectiveness and has a low ceiling for the obvious dair/uair KOs.

I'd counterpick Sheik to FD, because without platforms she can't utilize most of her broken-*** needle techs. If not there then Rainbow Cruise because it seems like a Sheik would hate it.

Against Ganon I'd go Green Greens possibly for camping. He doesn't seem to VKO well either, thus the low ceiling isn't a bad thing.

And I pretty much agree with what you already have down.
 

rhan

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#3
I see.

I think with the Sheik counterpick Rainbow Cruise would be better then FD. I think the movement of that stage could throw off an average Sheik player. On FD Young Link could use projectiles better but Sheik can capitalize on mistakes of poor projectile usage.

Also I'm rethinking my ban for Fox. Yoshi's Story seems better insted of Green greens. On Yoshi's it's less space for projectiles and the ceiling is extremly low. Also Fox could have an easier time recovering. Unlike Green Greens, the side death zones are farther from the stage.
 

rhan

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#5
Wow...I made a mistake. Thank you for pointing that out.

I ment Yoshi's Story not Island. Sorry for the error. I'll change it now.
 

rhan

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#7
Bump ;D

Come on now. There has to be other Young Link players who would like to share thier bans and counterpicks with others. :(
 

GI Josh

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#8
against gaondorf you definetly want to counter Poke Floats because there is plenty of room to space yourself with projectiles, and places to escape ffrom his most powerful attacks
 

rhan

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#9
GI Josh said:
against gaondorf you definetly want to counter Poke Floats because there is plenty of room to space yourself with projectiles, and places to escape ffrom his most powerful attacks
I personally hate poke' floats, but sometimes if it's for the best you have to choose it. I'll be sure to keep that in mind. Thanks.
 

GI Josh

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#10
kongo jungle 64 is also a good CP against fox since it is so hard for fox to kill upwards on that stage, and sometimes his illusion sweetspoting gets screwed up cause he could go through the stage
 

Laijin

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#13
I counter pick all characters on Pokemon Stadium. That stage is too good for Young Link and gives him the advatange in most cases. Low ceiling + close walls + big stage + platforms <3

I ban FD against spacies and Dreamland against Peach and Jiggs.
 

GI Josh

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#14
Ban Dreamland against Samus because she has absolutley ridiculous recovery options, and she can escape from your bombs and boomerangs easily
 

rhan

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#15
True that is her best stage after all. High top and the wide side zones. It's obviously a good place to ban.

P.S. : I'm thinking of turning this thread into a "Offically stage ban and counter pick disscussion thread"

I think it'll be a good idea to discuss the stages thoroughly and why they should be banned for that character. And I'm going to add the rest of the characters to discuss also.
 

D20

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#16
I counter pick all characters on Pokemon Stadium. That stage is too good for Young Link and gives him the advatange in most cases. Low ceiling + close walls + big stage + platforms <3

I ban FD against spacies and Dreamland against Peach and Jiggs.
Pokemon Stadium is a fairly safe stage to counter pick. I would avoid doing it against Fox and Falco though. Brinstar might be your best bet against those two.

If you know the other player doesn't have a Fox, Green Greens is excellent against Peach.
 

Devilution

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#17
I love YS with Young Link, but they usually ban that against me because I also play Ganon and Falcon.

POKEFLOATS IS MY ULTIMATE COUNTERPICK. I know it way to well and that boomerang is crazy on that stage. Not to mention if you hit them up above Onyx right away thats an easy...easy +60% damage. It's probably my most comfortable stage.
 

Jonneh

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#18
Uhh i think a good CP against common foxes would be Kirby Dreamland (64) cause, it has a very high ceiling, which=more resistant to u-airs, and you can be safe if you land on the top plat from an uair. Fox isn't so great @ horizontal kills, and he has an extremely sucky spike(non shine)
 

rhan

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#20
Luigi: Best counter picks would be places with low ceilings due to him being light. But for banning...FD because of how he can wavedash all over the place doing hit and runs just to rack the up the percents then get you with easy kills.

DK: I dont play DK's but I have seen some matches on him. I say CP pokemon stadium. I have no clue on a ban.

G&W: CP Pokefloats just for the heck of it....He's kinda bad when it come to keeping up and mobility. Just beat him with pojectiles then come in for a kill.
 

Laijin

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#21
Pokemon Stadium is a fairly safe stage to counter pick. I would avoid doing it against Fox and Falco though. Brinstar might be your best bet against those two.

If you know the other player doesn't have a Fox, Green Greens is excellent against Peach.
I always counter pick PK Stadium against spacies and I tend to do the best on that stage against them.

If your wondering about DK, then ban Yoshi Story since he that donkey punch is kinda strong >__>
 

rhan

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#24
No problem. But some of the character haven't been discussed. If you have any stages that should be banned/counterpicked against any of the characters please feel free to discuss. :)
 

jehonaker

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#25
I have experience with Mewtwo, and here's my perception of what you should ban/counterpick:

Good counterpicks include Final Destination, (higher ceiling, so his upwards throw doesn't kill as well; his poor approach lets you go to town), Jungle Japes (high ceiling negates his best killer) and maybe Fountain of Dreams (same here).

Ban Rainbow Cruise and Poké Floats, with precedence to the latter. Why? Mewtwo has a lot of room to dodge and evade, and both levels have a rather low ceiling.
Corneria is also ban-worthy...very, very low ceiling.


Moral of the story: high ceilings are good counterpicks against Mewtwo.
 

rhan

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#27
I agree somewhat with your perception with the Mewtwo counter pick. But I think it'll be rather easier to go to a low ceiling then choosing somewhere like Japes or FD. Reason is because Young Link's Dairs and Uairs can also get easy kills at stages like that. Like counter picking Green Greens or FoD can possibly be great for a Young Link. About 3 - 5 Uairs can take Mewtwo out pretty easy on Green Greens. But on the down side Mewtwo's upthrow can easily take out the avarage Young Link also. I agree with banning stages like Rainbow Cruise and Pokefloats because on those stages Mewtwo can stall and get some grab kills (Like back throw from Slowpoke etc.).

But really to counterpick against Mewtwo is all depends on what kind of Mewtwo you're playing against. LIke if it's just some random Mewtwo player. Take him to Greens and have fun with him. But if it's like Taj Mewtwo...Japes would probably be the best choice? I don't even know how Young Link could fair against that kind of Mewtwo... :/
 

Zjiin

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#28
I agree somewhat with your perception with the Mewtwo counter pick. But I think it'll be rather easier to go to a low ceiling then choosing somewhere like Japes or FD. Reason is because Young Link's Dairs and Uairs can also get easy kills at stages like that. Like counter picking Green Greens or FoD can possibly be great for a Young Link. About 3 - 5 Uairs can take Mewtwo out pretty easy on Green Greens. But on the down side Mewtwo's upthrow can easily take out the avarage Young Link also. I agree with banning stages like Rainbow Cruise and Pokefloats because on those stages Mewtwo can stall and get some grab kills (Like back throw from Slowpoke etc.).

But really to counterpick against Mewtwo is all depends on what kind of Mewtwo you're playing against. LIke if it's just some random Mewtwo player. Take him to Greens and have fun with him. But if it's like Taj Mewtwo...Japes would probably be the best choice? I don't even know how Young Link could fair against that kind of Mewtwo... :/
Against a high level M2, You definitely dont want to go to Japes, since his through the platform trick works pretty much everywhere you can stand.
 

rhan

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#29
I forgot about that glitch... ._.

Gah as you can see I don't know much about Mewtwo. But Japes sounds like a good ban stage after beng reminded of that. :/

Edit:

Updated. I added the Japes as a ban against Mewtwo. But since it hasn't been fully discussed it's still up for discussion before having it a complete ban against a Mewtwo.
 
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#31
Just a few things to consider...

Poke Floats would be pretty good against Marth. The angles of the stage mess with his sword swing, and there're still places where you can hookshot. Kongo Jungle kinda ruins your vertical kills...

Ice Climbers... maybe go with Poke Floats or Rainbow Cruise, somewhere where they can't settle down and chaingrab you, or do whatever the Ice Climbers want.

Doc I would consider counterpicking with Fountain of Dreams, maybe to break chaingrabs. Ban Final Destination? Not sure. Same with Mario...

Against Luigi, maybe counterpick Poke Floats? It'd limit his wavedashing movement area.

Against Pikachu... counterpick Dream Land, maybe? I dunno, he's got a killer usmash, I guess that's the biggest worry. Maybe try counterpicking Fountain, in case you get tailspiked and can get lucky with the Fountain trick recovery.

I'd counterpick Yoshi's Story against Game and Watch. I don't even know if he CAN sweetspot on that stage.

Bowser, yeah, definitely ban Yoshi's Story. Counterpick Pokemon Stadium? Something large where you can abuse his lack of range.

I'd ban Battlefield, probably, against Mewtwo. Japes looks like a good ban.

Maybe. I'm no expert =P
 

rhan

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#32
elvenarrow3000 said:
]Poke Floats would be pretty good against Marth. The angles of the stage mess with his sword swing, and there're still places where you can hookshot. Kongo Jungle kinda ruins your vertical kills...
It’s true that KOngo jungle may take away the vertical kill potential. But it adds the fact that Marth can be easily edge guarded there. Most Marth’s always sweet spot the edge. Since Kongo has thin edges it’s going to be more difficult for them to even sweet spot correctly. This gives a Young Link the option to easily D-smash edgegaurd. Or if he’s bold. Dtilt meteor?

elvenarrow3000 said:
Ice Climbers... maybe go with Poke Floats or Rainbow Cruise, somewhere where they can't settle down and chaingrab you, or do whatever the Ice Climbers want.
Yeah moving stages do screw up chain grabs. In that case maybe Cornaria could possibly be a counter pick? Since they’re light and the stage moves so that the chain grabs can be interrupted or ended.

elvenarrow3000 said:
Doc I would consider counterpicking with Fountain of Dreams, maybe to break chaingrabs. Ban Final Destination? Not sure. Same with Mario...
I don’t know much Doc either. Good accusation though.

elvenarrow3000 said:
Against Luigi, maybe counterpick Poke Floats? It'd limit his wavedashing movement area.
Good point. And also if you keep him toward the top of the stage often it’ll be easy to get off the top KO’s.

elvenarrow3000 said:
Against Pikachu... counterpick Dream Land, maybe? I dunno, he's got a killer usmash, I guess that's the biggest worry. Maybe try counterpicking Fountain, in case you get tailspiked and can get lucky with the Fountain trick recovery.
I’m not too afraid of the tail spike. I’m more afraid of getting killed by the thunder off the top most of the time.

elvenarrow3000 said:
I'd counterpick Yoshi's Story against Game and Watch. I don't even know if he CAN sweetspot on that stage.
I think he cane but it’s almost death if he tries. That could possibly lead into D-Smash or Dtitl easy edgeguard.

elvenarrow3000 said:
Maybe. I'm no expert =P
As long as you can provide valid points it doesn’t matter. We’re all here to discuss each character and why these stages should be banned/counter picked in Young Link’s favor.

Thanks for helping out. :]
 
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#33
Okay, I can see that =)

Two things though...

One is that I can see your point about it being harder for Marth to sweetspot on Kongo Jungle, but it also makes it harder for Young Link to sweetspot, and Marth has a vicious edgeguarding game. I dunno how this affects things, but... yeah.

Also, while the slopes on Corneria could help Young Link break out of IC chaingrabs, it also has a really low ceiling, so dthrow usmash is going to hurt a lot more... just something to consider.
 

rhan

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#34
Okay, I can see that =)

Two things though...

One is that I can see your point about it being harder for Marth to sweetspot on Kongo Jungle, but it also makes it harder for Young Link to sweetspot, and Marth has a vicious edgeguarding game. I dunno how this affects things, but... yeah.
With the Marth on Kongo, his edgaurding will be a little harder to get around but there is that off chance with the stupid cannon....Well to keep in controll of the match up there Young Link will have to keep Marth in a web of projectiles while moving around the stage trying not to get hit away.

I see why this could be bad though. I hate Marth's. Pokefloats? Chu beat Ken there! Plus it's a rather smart counterpick due to the fact projectile camping. :p

Also, while the slopes on Corneria could help Young Link break out of IC chaingrabs, it also has a really low ceiling, so dthrow usmash is going to hurt a lot more... just something to consider.
With IC's on Corneria, you should just stay at the back end of the ship close to the fin. That way if the IC's trys to pull of Dthrow to Usmash you always have the wall there to tech off of. It would be harder to camp IC's there in the tiny space. So I suggest trying to keep SHFFLNair until you can break the IC's apart. Kill Nana and then take on the main one by itself with smart approches.
 

Laijin

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#36
You guy's all need to learn the extremely useful Lai-Fire attack
Bomb drop -> d-air.
Always works against people who try to sweet spot the ledge. It pretty much takes sweet spotting out of their options, its cooler than d-smash and in a lot of cases works better since the opponent can wall tech your smash or DI.
 

rhan

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#37
It sound useful. But I'm kind of a safe player. I'm afriand to Dair unless it's part of a combo. Grab throw up etc.

I'll try it out at the up comming tourney this weekend and see if I can be comfortable with myself to do it.
 

Laijin

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#38
It sound useful. But I'm kind of a safe player. I'm afriand to Dair unless it's part of a combo. Grab throw up etc.

I'll try it out at the up comming tourney this weekend and see if I can be comfortable with myself to do it.
bomb drop d-air is the safest edge guard you can possibly do. You don't even have to jump off the ledge. The d-air is gaurenteed as long as you time it right and hit them with the bomb.
Here. Example. its an old vid of mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txN432lBvAo&feature=related
1:22-1:27
4:25-4:30
Even if you miss the bomb drop, you should still d-air because more likely than not they will attempt some sort of ledge recovery. 9.8/10 of my opponents do this. You just follow where their recovery and hit them with it.
Example. Same video, 2:55-3:00.
 

rhan

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#39
I see. It is actually safe and useful in many edgaurd situations.

Thanks Laijin for this bit of info. I'll be sure to keep ths in mind for future reference. ^_^

Regaurding the topic: What kind of stages should be banned and counterpicked against a Mario player? :confused:

I'm completely stumped in that matchup. I have only played one good Mario player in like one set. I got owned cause I didn't know where to pick and it seemed like the 2 places we went to Mario did exceptionally well. :(
 

Laijin

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#40
I see. It is actually safe and useful in many edgaurd situations.

Thanks Laijin for this bit of info. I'll be sure to keep ths in mind for future reference. ^_^

Regaurding the topic: What kind of stages should be banned and counterpicked against a Mario player? :confused:

I'm completely stumped in that matchup. I have only played one good Mario player in like one set. I got owned cause I didn't know where to pick and it seemed like the 2 places we went to Mario did exceptionally well. :(
I usually counter pick Pokemon Stadium against everybody. People actually started figuring out how much of an advantage I have on there and actually ban that stage against me. x__x Its like a giant playground for Young Link. lol.

For my playstyle(run away and throw **** all day),you always want to counter pick big stages(Dreamland, Pokemon Stadium, etc etc) and ban stages with low ceilings and small walls. Using other characters have the advantage of killing you faster, so Yoshi Story is the perfect stage to ban in most match ups(Unless its Peach, Samus or Jiggs. Then its Dreamland).
But yea, Counter Pick big stages and keep up the pressure with projectiles. Most Mario and D.Mario players who dont have experience with the match up do not know how to reflect projectiles very well.
In general though, spam n-air and up air. Beats out his aerials with their priority. When he is on the ground, wait for him to attack and then counter(Spot dodge, n-air out of shield, etc etc).
Thats how i'd play the match up :\
 
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