Unpopular opinion: Yoshi is not high tier. Evidence inside.

[YoHeKing]

Rosalina has dabuz xaltis falln etc.
Yoshi has
....
???????

But yes Utilt uair is a true combo












at low percents.

Uair is hard to land since airdodging is so easy to spam in this game and get rewarded for it similar to rolling (where they removed ledge camping from Brawl, they just switched it to the ground with rolls), more than half the time people are in the air or you throw/hit them into the air, it's much much better to just not chase at all since they're just gonna spam airdodges at our vain attempts for the kill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT360bL20xE#t=6m15s

Fair has more success for me than Uair against all the good players in my city, which is odd. No matter how big or good Uair is, I can't hit it cause their finger is melded into the L/R button even when I try to bait them. I only ever get it on the lower leveled players in my town.

I somehow 2 and 3 stocked KO on anthers using a ton of fair spam.

But up tilt up air actually kills at high percents no matter what the DI is. Double Jump should do the trick tbh. Actually though kirby and jiggs actually really cant get combo'd from up air but rosalina can.

Also has anyone tried down throw double jump footstool(if they dont react) double jump cancels most aerials at low percents so down B frame trap then if they air dodge down B. Seems like a mega frame trap and I use to do it. If they jump air dodge you should have enough time to throw an egg and if the footstool is high enough you can jab reset them with down air. If they jump into an aerial it seems like a free egg or up air.

Seems like one of the most amazing frame trap Yoshi has if you jave good reaction.

 

[fuzyll]

I'm going to define "high tier" character as one having recent top results at a major tournament. Based on this definition, Pikachu is "high tier" literally just because of ESAM. No one else (that I'm aware of) plays that character anywhere close to such a high level.

Let's assume that Yoshi and Pikachu are roughly equivalent in that they can both be "high tier" if played by a suitably good player. How is ESAM using Pikachu's potential to its fullest and why aren't Yoshi players doing the same?

So, here's ESAM taking a game off of ZeRo with Pikachu at CEO 2015 (one of the few to do so): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-jljs8psXk&t=7m45s. Because it's ZeRo losing, no one can refute this is an important game to look at. During the game, ESAM used:

Uspec 16
Fspec 1
Nspec 31
Dspec 4
Uair 22
Fair 14
Nair 9
Bair 6
Dair 8
Utilt 5
Ftilt 0
Jab 0
Dtilt 4
DashA 1
Usmash 0
Fsmash 2
Dsmash 1
Grab 12
Shield 18
Roll 6
Dodge 8

Kill 1: (Sheik @ 124%) Roll -> Dash -> Grab -> Dthrow -> Jump -> Dspec (Sheik @ 158%)
Death 1: (Pikachu @ 176%) Shield Drop -> Fair (Pikachu @ 182%)
Kill 2: (Sheik @ 121%) Roll -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Jump -> Dspec (Sheik @ 148%)

As a Yoshi case-study, let's look at KDB's play. He was the highest-placing Yoshi at CEO 2015 (top-32) and was sent to the loser's bracket by none other than ZeRo himself. Here's a very close game between him and Phuzix (top-24 Sheik at CEO 2015) from last month: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29y4n97aOCo&t=2m45s. During the game, KDB used:

Uspec 23
Fspec 0
Nspec 2
Dspec 2
Uair 4
Fair 21
Nair 23
Bair 0
Dair 0
Utilt 0
Ftilt 0
Jab 13
Dtilt 0
DashA 0
Usmash 1
Fsmash 1
Dsmash 0
Grab 1
Shield 17
Roll 1
Dodge 20

Kill 1: (Sheik @ 61%) Jab -> Jab -> Jump -> Fair (Spike) -> Fsmash (Sheik @ 96%)
Death 1: (Yoshi @ 121%) Grab -> Pummel -> Uthrow -> Jump -> Uair (Yoshi @ 137%)
Almost Kill 2: (Sheik @ 91%) Roll -> Jab -> USmash (Shielded, Sheik @ 93%)
Death 2: (Yoshi @ 136%) Grab -> Pummel -> Fthrow -> Jump -> Fair (Yoshi @ 150%)

Watching both games, there are some similarities:

• Both players use defensive options very well (For Glory scrubs like me roll all over the place, ruining our options)
  
• Both players ONLY use smash attacks when they've read an opportunity for a kill
  
• Both players essentially never use dash attacks
  
• Both players rely heavily on projectiles for spacing when transitioning from Disadvantaged -> Neutral (Nspec for Pikachu, Uspec for Yoshi)
  
• Both players rely heavily on quick aerial moves for setting up strings (Uair and Nair for Pikachu, Nair for Yoshi)

There are, however, some very glaring differences:

• KDB spams air dodges while attempting to transition from Disadvantaged -> Neutral a bit too much
  
• KDB never grabs while grab is ESAM's 5th highest offensive input
  
• KDB only uses 3 of the 5 air options Yoshi has (mostly just Fair and Nair) while ESAM uses all 5 of Pikachu's air options (though mostly Uair and Fair)
  
• KDB uses Jab as an option fairly often, while ESAM uses a combination of Utilt and Dtilt instead
  
• KDB's kill (and his very close kill attempt) were sub-100% on Sheik, while ESAM's kills both started over 120%
  
• KDB's deaths were at lower percentages than ESAM's death, but still began over 120%

To me, looking at this, I really feel Yoshi and Pikachu are very similar. Both of these players also seem extremely talented on paper and exhibit the kind of play you should expect to see at a high level. The only glaring differences, to me, are:

• KDB's slightly sloppier and more linear play when compared to ESAM
• Yoshi's complete lack of a grab option
  
• Yoshi's ability to kill far earlier than Pikachu
  
• Yoshi's lack of "viable" options (8 of 18 were completely unused by KDB - more on this below) compared to Pikachu (3 of 18 unused by ESAM)

We complain a lot about our lack of a grab, but we may not even need it. Compared to a character like Pikachu, we dish out way more damage in the average string. We also, arguably, have a better way to fish for these strings (better control on our projectile, retreating Fair, quick command-grab) to make up for our grab. On top of that, we have a lot more options to kill early.

I think Yoshi mains, in general, need to work on their ground game. Raptor came to the same conclusion after my post ~2 months ago in the video thread. KDB, as an example, simply doesn't use Dtilt, Ftilt, or Utilt as options, despite them being very good. Utilt -> Utilt -> Uair is a thing and tacks on more damage than Pikachu's equivalent Grab -> Uair -> Uair/Fair. It's just harder to set up because the initial Utilt isn't as guaranteed as a grab.

Ultimately, the conclusion I've come to as an aspiring player is that Yoshi is "high tier" material, but very difficult to play optimally. Many of our less-used options are very punishable compared to Pikachu, which is why they aren't used (Bair, Dair). We also have a completely worthless move (Fspec) that nullifies an available option. This is the linearity that Dabuz is talking about. We need to be able to throw out some of these moves as mix-ups to catch our opponent, but not get #rekt doing it.

Hopefully this analysis pushes some of you in the right direction. I want to see a goddamn Yoshi top-16 a major!

EDIT: Formatting.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Ftilt is not good.

 

[Yikarur]

But yes Utilt uair is a true combo












at low percents.

How long are you going to stay ignorant? I've told you about 10 times already that uptilt upair is a true combo in kill%

Uair is hard to land since airdodging is so easy to spam in this game and get rewarded for it similar to rolling

Punishing Airdodges is super easy. Every airdodges has about 5 frames cooldown. Thats a lot! Just get better at punishing them.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

I'm going to define "high tier" character as one having recent top results at a major tournament. Based on this definition, Pikachu is "high tier" literally just because of ESAM. No one else (that I'm aware of) plays that character anywhere close to such a high level.

Let's assume that Yoshi and Pikachu are roughly equivalent in that they can both be "high tier" if played by a suitably good player. How is ESAM using Pikachu's potential to its fullest and why aren't Yoshi players doing the same?

So, here's ESAM taking a game off of ZeRo with Pikachu at CEO 2015 (one of the few to do so): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-jljs8psXk&t=7m45s. Because it's ZeRo losing, no one can refute this is an important game to look at. During the game, ESAM used:

Uspec 16
Fspec 1
Nspec 31
Dspec 4
Uair 22
Fair 14
Nair 9
Bair 6
Dair 8
Utilt 5
Ftilt 0
Jab 0
Dtilt 4
DashA 1
Usmash 0
Fsmash 2
Dsmash 1
Grab 12
Shield 18
Roll 6
Dodge 8

Kill 1: (Sheik @ 124%) Roll -> Dash -> Grab -> Dthrow -> Jump -> Dspec (Sheik @ 158%)
Death 1: (Pikachu @ 176%) Shield Drop -> Fair (Pikachu @ 182%)
Kill 2: (Sheik @ 121%) Roll -> Grab -> Uthrow -> Jump -> Dspec (Sheik @ 148%)

As a Yoshi case-study, let's look at KDB's play. He was the highest-placing Yoshi at CEO 2015 (top-32) and was sent to the loser's bracket by none other than ZeRo himself. Here's a very close game between him and Phuzix (top-24 Sheik at CEO 2015) from last month: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29y4n97aOCo&t=2m45s. During the game, KDB used:

Uspec 23
Fspec 0
Nspec 2
Dspec 2
Uair 4
Fair 21
Nair 23
Bair 0
Dair 0
Utilt 0
Ftilt 0
Jab 13
Dtilt 0
DashA 0
Usmash 1
Fsmash 1
Dsmash 0
Grab 1
Shield 17
Roll 1
Dodge 20

Kill 1: (Sheik @ 61%) Jab -> Jab -> Jump -> Fair (Spike) -> Fsmash (Sheik @ 96%)
Death 1: (Yoshi @ 121%) Grab -> Pummel -> Uthrow -> Jump -> Uair (Yoshi @ 137%)
Almost Kill 2: (Sheik @ 91%) Roll -> Jab -> USmash (Shielded, Sheik @ 93%)
Death 2: (Yoshi @ 136%) Grab -> Pummel -> Fthrow -> Jump -> Fair (Yoshi @ 150%)

Watching both games, there are some similarities:

• Both players use defensive options very well (For Glory scrubs like me roll all over the place, ruining our options)
  
• Both players ONLY use smash attacks when they've read an opportunity for a kill
  
• Both players essentially never use dash attacks
  
• Both players rely heavily on projectiles for spacing when transitioning from Disadvantaged -> Neutral (Nspec for Pikachu, Uspec for Yoshi)
  
• Both players rely heavily on quick aerial moves for setting up strings (Uair and Nair for Pikachu, Nair for Yoshi)

There are, however, some very glaring differences:

• KDB spams air dodges while attempting to transition from Disadvantaged -> Neutral a bit too much
  
• KDB never grabs while grab is ESAM's 5th highest offensive input
  
• KDB only uses 3 of the 5 air options Yoshi has (mostly just Fair and Nair) while ESAM uses all 5 of Pikachu's air options (though mostly Uair and Fair)
  
• KDB uses Jab as an option fairly often, while ESAM uses a combination of Utilt and Dtilt instead
  
• KDB's kill (and his very close kill attempt) were sub-100% on Sheik, while ESAM's kills both started over 120%
  
• KDB's deaths were at lower percentages than ESAM's death, but still began over 120%

To me, looking at this, I really feel Yoshi and Pikachu are very similar. Both of these players also seem extremely talented on paper and exhibit the kind of play you should expect to see at a high level. The only glaring differences, to me, are:

• KDB's slightly sloppier and more linear play when compared to ESAM
• Yoshi's complete lack of a grab option
  
• Yoshi's ability to kill far earlier than Pikachu
  
• Yoshi's lack of "viable" options (8 of 18 were completely unused by KDB - more on this below) compared to Pikachu (3 of 18 unused by ESAM)

We complain a lot about our lack of a grab, but we may not even need it. Compared to a character like Pikachu, we dish out way more damage in the average string. We also, arguably, have a better way to fish for these strings (better control on our projectile, retreating Fair, quick command-grab) to make up for our grab. On top of that, we have a lot more options to kill early.

I think Yoshi mains, in general, need to work on their ground game. Raptor came to the same conclusion after my post ~2 months ago in the video thread. KDB, as an example, simply doesn't use Dtilt, Ftilt, or Utilt as options, despite them being very good. Utilt -> Utilt -> Uair is a thing and tacks on more damage than Pikachu's equivalent Grab -> Uair -> Uair/Fair. It's just harder to set up because the initial Utilt isn't as guaranteed as a grab.

Ultimately, the conclusion I've come to as an aspiring player is that Yoshi is "high tier" material, but very difficult to play optimally. Many of our less-used options are very punishable compared to Pikachu, which is why they aren't used (Bair, Dair). We also have a completely worthless move (Fspec) that nullifies an available option. This is the linearity that Dabuz is talking about. We need to be able to throw out some of these moves as mix-ups to catch our opponent, but not get #rekt doing it.

Hopefully this analysis pushes some of you in the right direction. I want to see a goddamn Yoshi top-16 a major!

EDIT: Formatting.

I love how did you analyze this. I'm going to do the same with my matches.

THANKS!

 

[Skitrel]

Rosalina has dabuz xaltis falln etc.

Uair is hard to land since airdodging is so easy to spam in this game and get rewarded for it similar to rolling (where they removed ledge camping from Brawl, they just switched it to the ground with rolls), more than half the time people are in the air or you throw/hit them into the air, it's much much better to just not chase at all since they're just gonna spam airdodges at our vain attempts for the kill.

Eggthrow>uair is a true combo kill setup Slush.

There's two ways to use it, the traditional chasing shorthop eggthrow style in which most Yoshis follow using nair or egglay. The second involves throwing a SHegg but following it slower, landing on the ground, running underneath the opponent and then using SHuair on them.

Both combo. Obviously the second method is much safer.

 

[YoHeKing]

Actually I use forward tilt when I use a quick read (bait an air dodge). And its a good benefit. Not only does it do 8 damage if u angle it but it dosnt stall our main moves. It can also put the player in a weird forward tilt string and position. It has alot less lag then punishing with smashes and kinda does better if you miss.

Up tilt can frame trap pretty well. Up tilt landings and they only have a few options. Air dodge and then get punished because of landing lag or jump which is the safest option. Yoshi on platforms can do some amazing set ups like up throw to top platform to down air(if opponent slides off) down air on second platform(if they slide in it) to down air, then if they slide off then jab lock them with down air to up tilt to up air. This is like one of the most technical things ive ever heard of and the funny thing was the opponent I was up against actually teched the best way possible but was still caught. Untill we see these types of set ups(I can imagine shado doing this on duck hunts tree making him one dangerous patient Yoshi).

But thats not all. Theres down air to down air to down air combos on fast fallers(not tested really) but on heavy weights possibly on even people under weights from Yoshi that I never even seen mentioned at all so far. And guess how much damage this does? 60+ damage with such a easy set up. The only thing stopping this set up is moves that out range his down air but still imagin this as a punish in such high level play. I know how to do it but I don't.

So many set ups, frame traps, combos, techs and edge guarding potential that I never ever see.

Down tilt is possibly better then pikachus because it can set up tech chases and Yoshis tether grab and dash attack actually have a great advantage with this. Out of sheild options cover the get up attack and they can still get punished but if they go forward or back with OoS egg toss. Possible down tilt into light egg roll (a fast side b custom) could just make this alot easier. Back crawl down tilt unbelievably stops plenty if approaches like alot of sword fighters (mostly roy).

All these really require reads but since not really anyone thinks there good nobody really tests them out for setups.

How long are you going to stay ignorant? I've told you about 10 times already that uptilt upair is a true combo in kill%


Punishing Airdodges is super easy. Every airdodges has about 5 frames cooldown. Thats a lot! Just get better at punishing them.

Little bit rude but yeah.

Edit: Triple Down air combo isn't as easy as it sounds. Its guaranteed at low percents even with DI. Down air to down air set up works on everyone at such low percents. Setting this up involves a percise full hop down air fastfalled at a percise length so it has 0 lag on ground but hits last hit which sets up attacks for low percents. If anyone was wondering.

 

[Unclesatan]

Yeah thats why I wonder why people complain so much about his kill set ups when alot of them are actually good and work at high percents. It just involves a little bit more of work.

People think im insane for actually thinking Yoshi has the potential to be top tier. I totally understand that too. But I seriously have 9000+ hours on my smash 4 3ds+wiiu and I play Yoshi most of smash4. I guess thats why.

You would have had to play the game literally 24/7 for a year straight to acquire 9000 hours, in fact there isn't even 9k hours in a year lol, not only that but the game hasn't been out that long xD. But I understand where you're coming from

 

[Sinister Slush]

I think what's funny about all these supposed kill set ups is that whenever I watch the matches of Yika and so on, outside of losing of course for all of us, those kill set ups almost never happen and what I say always does happen. Airdodging the guaranteed kill set ups by mashing their Airdodge button.

I mean, you can say ignorant all you want. But the results from all of our vids show, we have more success tossing our smashes or kill moves in a panic to end the stock than using any guaranteed kill setups.
Our best one that actually works for us most the time is Jab to Usmash, and even then most of the time it's a 4 out of 10 times it works for us. Either cause too far away or too close and they actually were able to DI away during the jab.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I actually disagree. 2 months ago I definitely would have agreed because I felt like everyone was way overrating Yoshi, but all the nerfs other characters have been given has really helped him out. Not to mention, Yoshi is still a solid character who deserves to be over other characters, enough to be somewhere in high tier. And just so you know, Mr. Doom getting 7th at combo breaker isn't the first time a Yoshi broke top 16 at a major. I've gotten top 16 at every major I've been to minus Apex. (9th KTAR XI, 13th KTAR XII, 9th at Xanadu 100, and 9th at KTAR XIII) and YellowRellow just got 13th at LTC3 I believe. I'm sure there's more too. It definitely isn't a plethora of results but it's a huge difference from Yoshi only placing above 16th once.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That isn't to say nerfs to characters doesn't mean that they'll be bumped down from top/high tier like Sheik Fox ROB or C.falcon, need to remember characters are constantly getting more and more buffs as well that're already high tier like Ness Donkey Kong Meta Knight Luigi etc.
The only true character that can arguably have been nerfed so much they're most likely eventually gonna get bumped off peoples high tier even is Sonic.

While characters not getting touched at all and still remain top/high tier are still up there. ZSS Wario Olimar Lucario Villager Pikachu Mario Rosalina (she's been nerfed a time or two, but then they revert it like the luma health nerf/buffs). ZSS is arguably the 2nd best in the game too.
And we still don't even know how the new Robin WFT Ike and Greninja will be at top level play/next national from all the massive buffs they keep getting.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I just wanna reiterate my first post. I actually agree with all the points you made about Yoshis weaknesses but I don't think its enough to make him a mid tier character. I don't think he should be anywhere under 15th (I currently have him as 9th/10th). I guess it really depends what you consider high tier. To me 15th is still high.

I'm very back and forth with Yoshi's future (assuming all characters stay relatively the same). Sometimes I feel like he'll drop severely once people start to really figure him out but as of lately I've been feeling like he has the potential to rise as a solid top 8 character. That probably makes no sense but the reason I think this is because it's really starting to seem like Yoshi is just a difficult character to use as precisely as he needs to be at all times, especially in a game where the rest of the cast is relatively easy to use. If that's the case, with time, he'll be a solid top 8 character. The improved pressure/conversion and kill game would be enough to put him up there imo (and you have to admit these are all things we need to work on). I guess an easier way to explain it would be to say that he has a higher skill cap then most characters and it's not something we've reached this early in the metagame yet. Pressure and conversion are the biggest things. There's so much going on into doing both properly and as a character that can do it so well, there's definitely unexplored areas that have yet to be reached.

Also, Yoshi by no means has a linear recovery and can land just fine. Use all your tools!!!

 

[Sinister Slush]

Something I wanna point out to the fuzy guy is that Polt was actually 17th at CEO though he did use Luigi.
Also Pikachu throws out more grabs than Yoshi because he gets reward off of it and much less endlag if he misses compared to Yoshi, so there's that lol

 

[Skitrel]

I'm very back and forth with Yoshi's future (assuming all characters stay relatively the same). Sometimes I feel like he'll drop severely once people start to really figure him out but as of lately I've been feeling like he has the potential to rise as a solid top 8 character. That probably makes no sense but the reason I think this is because it's really starting to seem like Yoshi is just a difficult character to use as precisely as he needs to be at all times, especially in a game where the rest of the cast is relatively easy to use. If that's the case, with time, he'll be a solid top 8 character. The improved pressure/conversion and kill game would be enough to put him up there imo (and you have to admit these are all things we need to work on). I guess an easier way to explain it would be to say that he has a higher skill cap then most characters and it's not something we've reached this early in the metagame yet. Pressure and conversion are the biggest things. There's so much going on into doing both properly and as a character that can do it so well, there's definitely unexplored areas that have yet to be reached.

Also, Yoshi by no means has a linear recovery and can land just fine. Use all your tools!!!

I agree with this evaluation.

Time and evolution of his game will slowly bring him up. He's got more potential than currently demonstrated.

Fox is another character that suffers from this problem, he's going to climb higher as time goes on as I don't think he's even close to being used at his full potential yet. What I've seen Larry Lurr doing with him is magical.

 

[fuzyll]

I also agree with Raptor's perspective here. Yoshi is a deceptively difficult character and I haven't seen anyone optimize him to the breaking point yet. We shouldn't be giving up on him because we're not getting results. We should be realizing that Yoshi is showing us just how much more improvement we need as players.

Here's a thought experiment: What would the perfect game of Smash 4 look like?

Without advanced tech like wavedashing to present additional options, precise fundamental inputs are EXTREMELY important in Smash 4. In the perfect game, every shield should be a perfect shield (or a perfect parry like KirbyKaze posted today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlGQpPg5PQc). Every tumble should be teched. Every attack should be appropriately spaced and sweet-spotted. Every opposing attack should be dodged, DI'd, or vectored perfectly. ZeRo consistently does these things (in addition to traps, reads, punishes, and all the other mind-games) better than anyone else right now. That's why he's on such a godly win streak. As he showed at EVO, his character choice doesn't matter - he'll just bash your face in with more optimal play.

The way I see it, Yoshi is a character that heavily rewards you for perfect fundamentals. He's got high damage, decent string potential, great framedata, and many very early kill options.

If you haven't got those precise inputs, though, he's VERY frustrating. Rather than playing patient and looking for the opening, you feel as if your only option is to blindly toss smash attacks out and hope they connect. You win enough this way that you're fooled into thinking you're good, and when you lose it just seems like you rolled the dice and came up short.

There's a fair amount of negativity on this forum regarding Yoshi and I think it's unwarranted. No, Yoshi is not the easy-to-master character we might have hoped for. Yes, he does have a number of weaknesses that we have to play around and that our opponents can exploit. But, Yoshi is absolutely "high tier" material. All he needs now is a "high tier" player to show us the way.

 

[kirbydabest]

hey EE| KDB here yoshi is definitely top ten guys the success I have found with the character shows that wins over phuzix wizzrobe nick riddle dk will and myran we just have to get more an more optimal d tilt an utilt are so good as well as jab 1 into basically anything I dont see yoshi's doing it enough.

a staple of my gameplay is jab 1>usmash as well as jab 1>fsmash fsmash secures really early kills on unsuspecting opponents and jab usmash is a kill setup that is tight an just takes practice to get better at I honestly feel like jab is the most under utilized move I see most average yoshi's just not using

 

[YoHeKing]

I also agree with Raptor's perspective here. Yoshi is a deceptively difficult character and I haven't seen anyone optimize him to the breaking point yet. We shouldn't be giving up on him because we're not getting results. We should be realizing that Yoshi is showing us just how much more improvement we need as players.

Here's a thought experiment: What would the perfect game of Smash 4 look like?

Without advanced tech like wavedashing to present additional options, precise fundamental inputs are EXTREMELY important in Smash 4. In the perfect game, every shield should be a perfect shield (or a perfect parry like KirbyKaze posted today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlGQpPg5PQc). Every tumble should be teched. Every attack should be appropriately spaced and sweet-spotted. Every opposing attack should be dodged, DI'd, or vectored perfectly. ZeRo consistently does these things (in addition to traps, reads, punishes, and all the other mind-games) better than anyone else right now. That's why he's on such a godly win streak. As he showed at EVO, his character choice doesn't matter - he'll just bash your face in with more optimal play.

The way I see it, Yoshi is a character that heavily rewards you for perfect fundamentals. He's got high damage, decent string potential, great framedata, and many very early kill options.

If you haven't got those precise inputs, though, he's VERY frustrating. Rather than playing patient and looking for the opening, you feel as if your only option is to blindly toss smash attacks out and hope they connect. You win enough this way that you're fooled into thinking you're good, and when you lose it just seems like you rolled the dice and came up short.

There's a fair amount of negativity on this forum regarding Yoshi and I think it's unwarranted. No, Yoshi is not the easy-to-master character we might have hoped for. Yes, he does have a number of weaknesses that we have to play around and that our opponents can exploit. But, Yoshi is absolutely "high tier" material. All he needs now is a "high tier" player to show us the way.

Especially with the techs were finding and still have yet to find for Yoshi. I seriously just found a way to forward throw and catch items before they hit the ground with Yoshi (this could be serious in the diddy MU). And I still know some frame perfect techs I really havn't mentioned yet.

And I totally agree on the really percise play with Yoshi. I don't play anywhere near as good without warming up.

I think what's funny about all these supposed kill set ups is that whenever I watch the matches of Yika and so on, outside of losing of course for all of us, those kill set ups almost never happen and what I say always does happen. Airdodging the guaranteed kill set ups by mashing their Airdodge button.

I mean, you can say ignorant all you want. But the results from all of our vids show, we have more success tossing our smashes or kill moves in a panic to end the stock than using any guaranteed kill setups.
Our best one that actually works for us most the time is Jab to Usmash, and even then most of the time it's a 4 out of 10 times it works for us. Either cause too far away or too close and they actually were able to DI away during the jab.

I won't force anything on you. Were just talking and its totally your choice if you want to disagree or agree. There really shouldn't be insults at all here or anything offensive.

You would have had to play the game literally 24/7 for a year straight to acquire 9000 hours, in fact there isn't even 9k hours in a year lol, not only that but the game hasn't been out that long xD. But I understand where you're coming from

Well I added up my smash 3ds plus wiiu. I think sleep mode had somthing to do with it on 3ds. But on wiiu I have a legit 4000(unless my wiiu lies). And something I like to do is go into the lab and just mash buttons sometimes at lower speed and try everything possble. I know a lot about stuff I really don't use or see because they really aren't something easy to pull off.

Also alot of the Yoshi players here are very good but im pretty sure we are getting and learning something knew very often.

We seriously need to try new things, find the best options, work on our amazing frame traps and edge guarding, tech chase, MUs(no MU is impossible for Yoshi. I know people who want to use Yoshi to play good against sheik because he really has one of the closest MUs imo.), switching up our moves more often (This includes tilts and even side B. Our side B is extremely under rated and has some uses that really no one else can use), and double jump techniques and tricks. Yoshi meta is improving it seems though which is a good start?

 

[CourageHound]

My argument here is that we should stop basing his tier position off "potential", and start basing it on actual evidence. There are no tournament results to back up the claims that he's top tier. The evidence just isn't there to support them.

This begs the question of what a tier list is supposed to be. Are we supposed to base a character's position purely off of tourney results? Or are we supposed to objectively look at the character's MUs, frame data, pros, and cons to determine how better or worse of a character he is compared to the cast? As someone stated before; would pikachu be mid-tier if ESAM wasn't repping him as successfully as he is?

Anyway, I do agree that Yoshi has his fair share of faults that hold him back. In my case and what I notice about Yoshi is that the neutral game is pretty hard vs the top tiers. It feels as though to gain ground, Yoshi kinda has to try and force his way in or gain advantage by using options with moderately high commitment. Usually it depends on how well the opponent knows the match-up and how well he/she capitalizes on how Yoshi moves/attacks. As long as you can avoid egg lay and properly shield/evade eggs then it's hard for the Yoshi. That's where I agree the linear-ness of his gameplay comes in. This is however somewhat offset by the fact that all Yoshi needs is one or two stray hits to gain momentum.

As for when Yoshi is in the advantageous state, I don't usually find getting a kill the problem. The nature of Yoshi's character in terms of mobility options, pressure, and egg lay more often than not always him to score kills even if they aren't guaranteed.

However, I believe Yoshi to be at the rim of high tier based on how good he is when played optimally, utilizing all his tools and options. He certainly has more going for him than most of the cast.

 

[YoHeKing]

This begs the question of what a tier list is supposed to be. Are we supposed to base a character's position purely off of tourney results? Or are we supposed to objectively look at the character's MUs, frame data, pros, and cons to determine how better or worse of a character he is compared to the cast? As someone stated before; would pikachu be mid-tier if ESAM wasn't repping him as successfully as he is?

Anyway, I do agree that Yoshi has his fair share of faults that hold him back. In my case and what I notice about Yoshi is that the neutral game is pretty hard vs the top tiers. It feels as though to gain ground, Yoshi kinda has to try and force his way in or gain advantage by using options with moderately high commitment. Usually it depends on how well the opponent knows the match-up and how well he/she capitalizes on how Yoshi moves/attacks. As long as you can avoid egg lay and properly shield/evade eggs then it's hard for the Yoshi. That's where I agree the linear-ness of his gameplay comes in. This is however somewhat offset by the fact that all Yoshi needs is one or two stray hits to gain momentum.

As for when Yoshi is in the advantageous state, I don't usually find getting a kill the problem. The nature of Yoshi's character in terms of mobility options, pressure, and egg lay more often than not always him to score kills even if they aren't guaranteed.

However, I believe Yoshi to be a high tier based on how good he is when played optimally, utilizing all his tools and options. He certainly has more going for him than most of the cast.

What people forget Is what gimicks he can use. A yoshi with a gyro can spam and time out rob like nothing as long as he doesnt throw the gyro. Double jump fast fall has hard armor till he touches ground which shuts down allmost all projectile based users. It can use trades and so on. Now that I use alot which is just amazing against sheik and links. I feel like each of his MUs are played so much diffrently and so much weirder. Possible other reason hes getting no results is because he has to learn every MU very well and push that MU to the max options. What do you guys think?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Where am I insulting anyone?
Anyways, here's an opinion for this thread.

Yoshi is bad because he's literally a copy paste of brawl Yoshi but with OoS options that barely matter, nerfed pivot grab bair neutral b and dair, only plus from that being Smash DI taken out so we can hit them with all the hits of Dair.

Yoshi having no gimmicks or kill set ups he had in brawl from DR and chaingrabs is why he's gonna be mid tier by the time it's next year unless these patches keep being bi-monthly and they actually figure out he's pretty bad and requires some attention finally.

 

[CourageHound]

Where am I insulting anyone?
Anyways, here's an opinion for this thread.

Yoshi is bad because he's literally a copy paste of brawl Yoshi but with OoS options that barely matter, nerfed pivot grab bair neutral b and dair, only plus from that being Smash DI taken out so we can hit them with all the hits of Dair.

Yoshi having no gimmicks or kill set ups he had in brawl from DR and chaingrabs is why he's gonna be mid tier by the time it's next year unless these patches keep being bi-monthly and they actually figure out he's pretty bad and requires some attention finally.

Well copy-paste is a stretch. Note that the modification to how we can mulipulate our aerial momentum with egg toss is big. Up smash being gigantic and a great kill move. Up-tilt gain in size. Changed dash attack. New jab covers more area. The abillity to get a smash attack from jab. A bunch of little things that add up to a lot in the big picture of Yoshi's options.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Brawl's Usmash is arguably better cause it had invincibility for the entire head + more while Yoshi is just tip of feet.
Egg toss momentum doesn't matter much when the endlag is pretty much the same and even less egg tosses in the air.
Changed DA is bad since release and the fact they nerfed that anyways makes it even worse.

Otherwise we can go into frame data and hitbox sizes. Though only ones that'd be easy is Fair Uair nair fsmash and Dsmash since those're all the same size still.

 

[CourageHound]

I was actually really sad early on when we realized Yoshi only gets three tiny little hops from egg toss .

 

[YoHeKing]

I was actually really sad early on when we realized Yoshi only gets three tiny little hops from egg toss .

Its better then a fastfall.

Where am I insulting anyone?
Anyways, here's an opinion for this thread.

Yoshi is bad because he's literally a copy paste of brawl Yoshi but with OoS options that barely matter, nerfed pivot grab bair neutral b and dair, only plus from that being Smash DI taken out so we can hit them with all the hits of Dair.

Yoshi having no gimmicks or kill set ups he had in brawl from DR and chaingrabs is why he's gonna be mid tier by the time it's next year unless these patches keep being bi-monthly and they actually figure out he's pretty bad and requires some attention finally.

Some1 else insulted you just a bit. Nothing to worry about.


Now specificly how many kill set up does Yoshi have /frame traps are unescapable? Yoshi has more kills set ups then pikachu, sheik, mario, rosalina, captain falcon, fox, luigi(he has much better kill set ups but not more) and diddy kong. Everyone on that list really just needs a read to kill and its not given to them. IMO I would rather have more set ups then just a few kill set up unless we get a really good kill throw.

The only actual amazing kill set up is ZSS and all her kill set ups are actually not hard to pull off at all. I guess thats one of the main reason shes called Zero Skill Samus.

Luigi may have an amazing kill set up but he can get frame traped which makes kill set ups easier for us.

Diddy kong and down tilt killing set up is actually worst then our kill set ups.

Rosalina really doesnt have any kill set ups. I imagen she does but she has alot of frame trap and KB. I guess canceling rosalinas aerials can make luma put the opponent into a free hitstun.

Sheik everyone should already know she lacks at killing.

Does mario actually have any guaranteed kill combos? I honestly forget.

Pikachu has really easy to react kill set ups. Custom pikachu on the other hand.

Fox really only has read dependent kill set ups.

We have jab, egg, up tilt, down air(technique that really only works on a few), up air, nair, fair, back air can actually set up kill combos now that it brings characters in, platform sliding kill set ups combined with jab reset down air (it works but not on everyone), footstool combos, up throw on top platform follow up(I really dont know but im guessing this is unescapable if use correctly)? Anything else possible true or a frame trap? I could be wrong on some of these but correct me if I am.
Also just wondering but what makes you think up tilt to up air is not a true combo when it can hit and kill no matter the DI.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Now specificly how many kill set up does Yoshi have /frame traps are unescapable? Yoshi has more kills set ups sheik

Stopped reading there.

 

[YoHeKing]

Stopped reading there.

Really now. How many actual good kill set ups does sheik even have? You can all avoid them... forward throw fair kills at like really high percents and after the percent were she can actually have kill potential all of them are easy to react to. Let me guess you stoped reading at "Really now.". Pointless comment is pointless.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm half drunk.
Sheik has a plethora of moves that chains into her Bouncing fish alone, the BF allows her to gimp people sub 70% by simply being so far near the blast zone due to her fair chains or her combo game.

Mario doesn't need kill set ups when his Usmash comes out incredibly fast and is bigger invicibility wise compared to Yoshi's.
Same for Rosalina, but she does have kill set ups by simply having luma with her.
Luigi having no kill setups is laughable.
Diddy Kong has Banana and the buff to Usmash makes it even more kill confirms he can get
Pikachu has not as much kill setups, maybe same amount as ours around 1-4 but he still has that + better low % combos where as we just have to pray for our ****ty Utilt to land on soemone that isn't already holding the shield button to do it twice into Uair.
Fox has a lot of kill setups too, watch any megafox or DEHF/Larry set. I hope eventually people will realize the silliness that is Fox and start putting him in top 5 where he belongs.

Ships broken yo

 

[fuzyll]

Yoshi is bad because he's literally a copy paste of brawl Yoshi but with OoS options that barely matter, nerfed pivot grab bair neutral b and dair, only plus from that being Smash DI taken out so we can hit them with all the hits of Dair.

You're mostly not wrong - he's incredibly similar to his Brawl iteration. But, we aren't in KansasBrawl anymore. Metaknight isn't God-tier, Ice Climbers and Snake don't exist, Falco and Marth are trash... Does Yoshi need vast improvement over Brawl to be "high tier"?

I'd be lying if I said I didn't want buffs. If nothing else, egg roll really bothers me. Why can't it work like Bowser Jr.'s car and give us horizontal momentum? Why can't it work like Sonic's spin dash and allow us quick follow-ups out of it? Having better grab follow-ups to reward us for grabbing would also be great.

Without these things, it's quite obvious Yoshi isn't S-tier (despite what the EventScrubs tier list might have you think). I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that. But, do you honestly think he's D-tier just like in Brawl? Does even B-tier seem too high to you?

 

[YoshiYoshi]

The biggest problem with Yoshi is that his perfect shield radius is smaller than every other character. That is an enormous hindrance when discussing who are the best characters when played to full potential. The fact that his egg-shield is smaller than his standing animation is so much worse than the bubble-shield. It makes dodging Mario's fireballs unnecessarily difficult.

Other characters can perfect-shield things before they hit them, but Yoshi has to line things up with the edge of the egg. He just can't shield quickly enough. Of course, the bubble-shield shrinks after taking damage, but since they recover so much faster, they are full more often than not. This makes neutral very difficult.

I think Yoshi is high tier though. He's got a lot of advantages that other characters do not. His mobility is so good. When I see high level Yoshi players lose, I can see how they lost, but I know how they could have won. Better spacing, better execution...that's all it'll take. I think the community just lacks a dedicated high level Yoshi main who loves Yoshi enough. I wish I were a high level Yoshi main...

The grab is OK, really. It has interesting follow-ups and is a bait machine.

Jab and OoS full-hop N-air help compensate for slow grab. Frame 7 Yoshi Bomb reversal helps compensate for lack of kill throw. Egg Lay and D-air allow Yoshi to pressure shields hard.

Yoshi can execute two attacks on a full hop. He can Nair>Nair, Nair>Fair, Nair>Bair, Nair>Dair (some hits), Nair>Uair, Fair>Fair, Fair>Nair, Fair>Bair (two hits), Fair>Uair, Bair>Bair (one hit), Bair>Nair, Bair>Uair, Uair>Uair...etc. He can also Air-dodge>Nair, AD>Fair, AD>Bair, AD>Dair (a few hits). He can Nair>Egg Lay, Fair>Egg Lay, Bair>Egg Lay and Dair> Egg Lay. Compare to Fox who only gets one nair on a full hop and cannot shot-hop AD>nair. Yoshi's options are so, so many. It just takes better baiting and punishing.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Marth isn't trash since he's been getting a buff every patch and even before the buffs, he already beat us -2.
Though since Rapto played against Mr.E a bunch, he believed it was more of a -3 for us.

I feel like Yoshi will slowly drop as the game gets older, people are saying Luigi will be the same similar to King D3 in the tearly days of brawl, but I feel like Yoshi is more of the GnW area since D3 stayed around High tier even at the end of brawl.

Yoshi is top 3 on everyones list 3ds/early wii u days then as the game gets older he goes down to top of C=tier (mid tier) just like GnW in brawl.

This is a mock tier list I made yeteryday, basically stopped carring about it halfway into C-tier, but I legitimately think Yoshi is barely scrapping top 20.

And only realson Ninja nad DK isn't above Yoshi is because I need to see more examples of the buffs helping their combo game, especially since DK gets Cargo uthrow to Uair now.

 

[YoHeKing]

I'm half drunk.
Sheik has a plethora of moves that chains into her Bouncing fish alone, the BF allows her to gimp people sub 70% by simply being so far near the blast zone due to her fair chains or her combo game.

Mario doesn't need kill set ups when his Usmash comes out incredibly fast and is bigger invicibility wise compared to Yoshi's.
Same for Rosalina, but she does have kill set ups by simply having luma with her.
Luigi having no kill setups is laughable.
Diddy Kong has Banana and the buff to Usmash makes it even more kill confirms he can get
Pikachu has not as much kill setups, maybe same amount as ours around 1-4 but he still has that + better low % combos where as we just have to pray for our ****ty Utilt to land on soemone that isn't already holding the shield button to do it twice into Uair.
Fox has a lot of kill setups too, watch any megafox or DEHF/Larry set. I hope eventually people will realize the silliness that is Fox and start putting him in top 5 where he belongs.

Ships broken yo

Most of those are really not guaranteed at all. They involve the same effort and thinking as killing with Yoshi. Marios up smash really doesnt have much priority and really isnt a anti air especially when it had like half the range as Yoshis. All it is is really safe.

Luigi has actually few set ups you really cant escape. Most of them involve reads.

First of almost all up tilt on any character shouldn't be safe. Its a punish tool that actually doesn't make Yoshis hurtbox any bigger at the tail.

Rosalinas kill set ups are once again from reads.

If mario doesn't need kill set ups what makes Yoshi any diffrent if he had no kill set ups. Yoshis up air covers so many options and covers a whole platform. His up smash actually has barely no hurtbox underneath where the point that alot of grabs smashes and ever sonics spin dash go right under. Funny thing is yoshis up smash our ranges marios smash attack both vertically and horizontal.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Marios up smash really doesnt have much priority and really isnt a anti air especially when it had like half the range as Yoshis. All it is is really safe.

A safe invincible move isn't an anti air? wooooooooow

First of almost all up tilt on any character shouldn't be safe. Its a punish tool that actually doesn't make Yoshis hurtbox any bigger at the tail.

That's not true at all

Rosalinas kill set ups are once again from reads.

Rosa's kill set ups involves luma hitting the opponent or just not even being near her, it's as simple as pressing B in both a customs off/on environment to "set it up"

If mario doesn't need kill set ups what makes Yoshi any diffrent if he had no kill set ups. Yoshis up air covers so many options and covers a whole platform. His up smash actually has barely no hurtbox underneath where the point that alot of grabs smashes and ever sonics spin dash go right under. Funny thing is yoshis up smash our ranges marios smash attack both vertically and horizontal.

Mario doesn't need kill set ups cause everything else about his is around the balanced area, air speed fall speed damage output etc. are all balanced but just decently high enough to be considered good.

best air mobility in the game, but floaty as hell and fast fall speed really slow makes it hard for Yoshi to do much in the air when trying to read airdodges for kills. Which is why characters like the Mario bros or fast fallers get kills easier than Yoshil.

 

[YoHeKing]

Marth isn't trash since he's been getting a buff every patch and even before the buffs, he already beat us -2.
Though since Rapto played against Mr.E a bunch, he believed it was more of a -3 for us.

I feel like Yoshi will slowly drop as the game gets older, people are saying Luigi will be the same similar to King D3 in the tearly days of brawl, but I feel like Yoshi is more of the GnW area since D3 stayed around High tier even at the end of brawl.

Yoshi is top 3 on everyones list 3ds/early wii u days then as the game gets older he goes down to top of C=tier (mid tier) just like GnW in brawl.

This is a mock tier list I made yeteryday, basically stopped carring about it halfway into C-tier, but I legitimately think Yoshi is barely scrapping top 20.

And only realson Ninja nad DK isn't above Yoshi is because I need to see more examples of the buffs helping their combo game, especially since DK gets Cargo uthrow to Uair now.

Marth Is a -2...? I really disagree. I beat kj22 2 and 3 stock against his marth and ive played possibly better marths. Really nothing marth can do against Yoshi. People who actually make not look so good. MU exp is real against marth no joke.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Fantastic
You beat KJ and other Marth's on wifi.

I beat him 3-0 in sets until today when I SD against him. Marth constantly getting buffs is helping Marth become a relevant character.

 

[Duplighost]

I really don't want to be involved in this argument at all, but from personal experience I have found Yoshi to be a very good character. I'm not saying he's top tier, but he is a really nice character to use against certain characters.

Here are just a couple things that I find useful that Yoshi has:

-Jab -> F-Smash: his double jab knocks opponents forward, and if the opponent doesn't air dodge or anything, it's easy to follow up with F-Smash.
-His egg throw. It's a great tool for hitting airborne opponents, allowing more combos, and sometimes for recovery.
-His down tilt is good for spacing and it is surprisingly quick.
-His neutral air comes out extremely quickly and can break many combos.

I feel like Yoshi is meant to be used really offensively, and is meant to take damage. He doesn't seem very technical, but more of a high-risk high-reward character.

(Note: I'm not a tournament player, but I play consistently on For Glory. I have had many victories with Yoshi against skilled opponents. I probably don't have the best opinion, but feel free to inform me of anything.)

 

[YoHeKing]

Fantastic
You beat KJ and other Marth's on wifi.

I beat him 3-0 in sets until today when I SD against him. Marth constantly getting buffs is helping Marth become a relevant character.

While It was wifi 3 stock and 2 stock really isnt gonna mean he could beat me offline. Thats a very rare possibility.

Marios fast fall soeed really Isnt far from yoshis either. Marios aerials dont even do more then Yoshis. In fact they even have more lag. Up air on Yoshi has the same amount of air lag as marios back air allowing Yoshi to up air to nair from a short hop. Marios aerials are good though but if it makes him such a good character I don't see why its making Yoshi not a good character.

 

[White_Pointer]

Luigi has actually few set ups you really cant escape. Most of them involve reads.

Luigi has down throw -> down b, down throw -> back air, a back throw that can kill and great off stage game, he has plenty of kill options and setups. He only really needs reads if he wants to KO off his smashes or up b, but he hardly ever needs to do that considering his almost guaranteed kill setups off his down throw.

If mario doesn't need kill set ups what makes Yoshi any diffrent if he had no kill set ups. Yoshis up air covers so many options and covers a whole platform. His up smash actually has barely no hurtbox underneath where the point that alot of grabs smashes and ever sonics spin dash go right under. Funny thing is yoshis up smash our ranges marios smash attack both vertically and horizontal.

Up smash missing short characters isn't a good thing...Mario can actually get kills with it from roll reads whereas Yoshi can't. Honestly I'd probably take the safe up smash that can hit short characters Mario has over the unsafe one Yoshi has that misses if you stand on top of him or even slightly behind him in exchange for the shorter range. Mario also has a back throw that can kill and chains starting from down throw that can combo into his fair for a spike, so he does have some kill threats.

best air mobility in the game

I don't think Yoshi has the best air mobility on the game. Don't confuse speed with mobility. Yoshi has the best airspeed in the game, yes, but that doesn't make him the most mobile in the air. Characters like Jiggs and Kirby easily have better air mobility than Yoshi despite their air speed being slower. I'd say the various options characters like Diddy, Sheik, Mii Brawler, Villager, Wario and ZSS have in the air gives them better overall air mobility than Yoshi too. Mobility isn't just about speed.

 

[YoHeKing]

Luigi has down throw -> down b, down throw -> back air, a back throw that can kill and great off stage game, he has plenty of kill options and setups. He only really needs reads if he wants to KO off his smashes or up b, but he hardly ever needs to do that considering his almost guaranteed kill setups off his down throw.



Up smash missing short characters isn't a good thing...Mario can actually get kills with it from roll reads whereas Yoshi can't. Honestly I'd probably take the safe up smash that can hit short characters Mario has over the unsafe one Yoshi has that misses if you stand on top of him or even slightly behind him in exchange for the shorter range. Mario also has a back throw that can kill and chains starting from down throw that can combo into his fair for a spike, so he does have some kill threats.



I don't think Yoshi has the best air mobility on the game. Don't confuse speed with mobility. Yoshi has the best airspeed in the game, yes, but that doesn't make him the most mobile in the air. Characters like Jiggs and Kirby easily have better air mobility than Yoshi despite their air speed being slower. I'd say the various options characters like Diddy, Sheik, Mii Brawler, Villager, Wario and ZSS have in the air gives them better overall air mobility than Yoshi too. Mobility isn't just about speed.

Jiggs and kirby dont have as many options though *ehm* double jump fast fall approaching*ehm*whille jigs and kirby can be camped out by projectiles cuz they dont cancel really anything. Yoshis air mobility is actually one of the best hands down. Stoping combos with a frame 1 jump and punishing endlag with down b. He has his cancel momentum side B, "spammable" aerials, way to good B reversals, down air that has like no lag in air, heavy weight and a projectle that is controllable.

Yoshis up smash hits a ducking jigglypuff so I dont get where you got that from. Yoshis starts from the front so itIts faster to punish with it while marios starts from back which the both have there own perks.

Yoshi still has more guaranteed kill comboes from luigis. Down throw back air and down throw down B really dont mean 2 set ups because the only setup there is the down throw and the follow up is the down b or back air. All the rest really rely on reads though. But yeah luigis kill throw is decent but it really doesnt seem like a good tool like his down throw. I actuslly learned from shado that you can run away from wario, villager, miibrawler (He really cant even reach you on platforms, his aerials are like fox and last to long) and diddy if you steal his banana. I prefer aggressive over defencive but when I switch to shado's methods people don't even know what to do at all. Basically anyone slower then you you can run away which isnt impossible to beat its just really hard to keep up.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Well smallest size Mii brawler is the fastest in the air...

 

[YoHeKing]

Well smallest size Mii brawler is the fastest in the air...

That thing Is ridiculous. Is he even legal tho?