JesusTheSecondComing
Smash Rookie
I agree I struggle with link and toon link players due to projectiles but they might just be better lol. I know marth is the counter to G&W though.
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Q&A Unleashing a 2-D Horror - A Game and Watch Thread
- Thread starter Juushichi
- Start date
Italia06823834
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2009
- Messages
- 55
Shiek covers most of his bad MUs pretty well. I've seen this recommended here before and while I haven't tried it in tournament, playing with friends it seems to be solid advice.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
G&W does just fine against Marth. I've found Sonic problematic but tbh I just suck against Sonic in general and have no idea what to do.
shapular
Smash Ace
Out of Marth/Roy/Mario/Sheik/maybe ROB, who do you guys think would be the best secondary to cover G&W's bad matchups?
JesusTheSecondComing
Smash Rookie
I'd probably go with either Shiek or Mario since they have more accurate projectiles and generally good against who I do poor in MU
WINK ;)
Thankful for today
Sonic is the reason I have sleepless nights.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Catching up new work schedule is buns. Still going to UFGT though. I doubt I'll see any of ya'll there though.
If you see them tether to the ledge and you are on it, just ledge drop and nair. Some tethers might be able to break and do -> thing in time, but after playing w/ Fizzle and Nope (both Ivy), I'm pretty confident that most can't do anything about it. If you are approaching the ledge and they are coming up to it... idk good luck. Try to ledge trap.
@CP question: I play Sheik to cover some MUs. TL to cover the Link/MK MUs atm. Otherwise GnW.
Also congratulate darkm3troid on his inclusion into the PMBR, imo.
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shapular
Smash Ace
A few days ago I had an idea and figured out that if you accidentally get yourself stuck under the stage on Lylat or other stages with weird edges while trying to ledgehop, you can hit pan and hit back on the control stick and you'll do a B-reverse or wavebounce. The B-reverse gives you more momentum but the wavebounce still gives you enough to get you out from under the stage. It's a little bit easier than trying to reverse sweetspot the ledge and still gives you the option to not sweetspot. It would still be more worthwhile to practice ledgehopping, but it's good to know the option is available and it might be useful in other situations. Some of you probably know about this but I never thought about it so I figured I would share.
Speaking of ledgehops, I'm having trouble with the timing for the ledgehop wavedash (I think I've heard it called a ledgedash?). I can do it quickly about half the time but the other half I just SD. I usually get too scared to use it in games, or I do a slow one to make sure I don't die. Do you guys have any tips for the timing?
Speaking of ledgehops, I'm having trouble with the timing for the ledgehop wavedash (I think I've heard it called a ledgedash?). I can do it quickly about half the time but the other half I just SD. I usually get too scared to use it in games, or I do a slow one to make sure I don't die. Do you guys have any tips for the timing?
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
I've been playing for a long time and I still miss the timing sometimes. GnW's legs are so damn short that I can't tell all the time, lol. I generally never mess it on YI: Brawl though.
The chu/nintendude match helps to prove a point that I've been making since melee—something about hammer's mechanics need to be changed (ditto peach's stitches, which were a bigger problem in melee since peach was viable, dedede's minions, luigi's misfire, etc). I don't want to nerf him, the 9 hammer as an option is completely reasonable but it should not in any way be based on RNG that isn't manipulated by the player. Yes, because of how the hammer works the player has some control over its results via eliminating a few of the options at a time, but there is still ultimately a dice roll occurring for each and every swing, and that negatively impacts the competitiveness of the game as a whole. It can be improved, and that improvement can even be an overall buff for g&w by giving his player complete control over when he pulls 9s.
The change I thought of, and I imagine a team of developers could improve upon this further, is an additive system—game and watch will cycle through 1-8, starting at 3 or 4 since the first two are fairly awful, and when he's hit his opponent with judge hammers that as a sum are ≥ 9, the next hammer will be a 9.
The change I thought of, and I imagine a team of developers could improve upon this further, is an additive system—game and watch will cycle through 1-8, starting at 3 or 4 since the first two are fairly awful, and when he's hit his opponent with judge hammers that as a sum are ≥ 9, the next hammer will be a 9.
shapular
Smash Ace
I've always thought that if Judgment Hammer was de-randomized it would be broken. 9 is way too good to be able to pull out at will.
GeZ
Smash Lord
Spoon~
Smash Ace
Yo, i need this skype group thing =)
Also, anyone going to ufgtx? Gaw dittos best dittos.
Also, anyone going to ufgtx? Gaw dittos best dittos.
Poodle
Smash Rookie
Hello my 2d brethren. I've been lurkin since 3.0 dropped and I thought I'd finally join in. My main playing partner brought up an interesting tidbit I thought I'd share. He said that the light-blue and yellow skins for G&W make the bacon really visible while some of the darker colors can get lost in the background. Very minor advantage to be had but I now stick to Green&Watch.
shapular
Smash Ace
It's not that hard to hit a Judgment. You can definitely combo into it from a grab, probably dtilt, utilt, uair, and dair bounce, not to mention unexpected B-reverse shenanigans.
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
I've been using Camo Watch for a while now. It's very stage dependent.
Here's a quick guide:
Here's a quick guide:
- Yoshi's (Melee) - Cyan - The colors here are extremely bright.
- Battlefield - Blue - The stage is mostly grey and brown so not much to blend in against, but the skybox is deep blue and when it becomes night everything becomes very blue.
- Pokemon Stadium 2 - Blue - Everything about this stage is blue
- Final Destination - Black - The stage never gets as dark as it did in melee, but black is still the best option.
- Smashville - Green/Yellow/Blue - Pay attention to what time of day it is when you start your match because Green or Yellow are great for day but Blue is the only acceptable night.
- Dreamland - Green/Cyan/Yellow - Green is probably the best here because the tree is so overgrown, but Cyan blends into the skybox and Yellow works against the tree itself.
- Fountain of Dreams - Blue/Cyan/Black - Black works great off stage, Cyan works better on stage Blue is an effective compromise
- Yoshi's (Brawl) - Yellow - The grass color here is always slightly yellow, so spring through fall yellow works great. Winter sucks no matter what color you choose
- Lylat Cruise - Black - Obviously
- Pokemon Stadium 1 - Black - You might think green or even colors to match the different transitions, but the background is consistently black and the whole stage is generally dark.
- WarioWare- Blue/Green - There isn't a great answer for this stage, but the background isn't dark enough for black so go with the darkish colors.
- Green Hill Zone - Green/Yellow/Cyan - Green and Yellow are obvious, but the colors here are also really bright so Cyan isn't a bad choice.
- Skyloft - Cyan - You spend the majority of this stage looking at skyboxes so be one with the sky.
- Skyworld - Yellow - Yellow yellow yellow yellow
- Metal Cavern - Blue - Just not dark enough for black
- Halberd - Red - Finally a red stage. And boy is it ever red. This is by far the best camo-watch stage.
- Castle Siege - Red - Transformation 2 is all lava and transformation 1 has red roofs
- Norfair - Red - Laaaaaava
- Dracula's Castle - Red - And that concludes the red block
- Rumble Falls - Yellow - Don't let the trees fool you. They are yellow.
- Distant Planet - Yellow - It rains every so often, but not enough to warrant a color switch.
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shapular
Smash Ace
Do you find that you get any benefit out of going Camo Watch? I always go black, but it it helps at all, I might as well try to get whatever cheap advantage over better players that I can.
So giving the chance for something broken to occur is not broken? On the contrary, that's no less broken. The most illustrative theoretical example of this goes like this: two game and watch players meet in tournament. They have similar playstyles and can be expected to use judge a similar number of times. In this example, if one player is markedly better than the other, he's probably going to win—but if the two are of a similar skill level, and they both hit, say, 30% of their hammer attempts, ANY random deviation in the result of the hammer rolls has a noticeable impact on the result of the match.
That's not just broken, that's actively unfair. That is a mechanic wherein the game, independent of player input, is able to choose who it wants to help that day and who it wants to hurt. The purpose of any competition is the determination of who the better competitor is, and any element outside of the control of the competitors is counter to that purpose. It's no better than yoshi's story fly guys, the random falling anvils in flat zone, that awful chimaera in new pork city or the whirlwinds on hyrule castle 64.
Project M is a game developed by a group of people who are noticeably invested in the approval of—and largely came from—the competitive Smash Bros. community. As long as the game has the opportunity to build on both the triumphs and mistakes of its predecessors as competitive games, failing to do so can only be from ignorance, time constraints (there are none, we're not pushing a release date) or a lapsed commitment to the improvement of the game. I know the PMBR consists of busy individuals, and this change is hardly a priority since it affects a relatively slim number of competitive matches—however, not prioritizing a change does not mean that change would not be overwhelmingly an improvement.
"It's not going to be de-randomized" is not a response worth humoring, even if a chorus of angels sang it from the firmament. This is bad design for a competitive game and I will continue to point it out in every game I play competitively.
If it's a guarantee that he has a 9 when he has 1 dot or whatever other indicator the PMBR feels like adopting that's fine. It's the randomness I object to. It's pointless design and it can potentially hurt both the g&w and his opponent—the g%w by getting a difficult combo that amounts to nothing since his roll sucked, and the opponent who can die at 0 because the roll was good.
Have you thought of any way to make it better in design? Im 99% sure the move wont be changed completely, its a very unique move to GnW, and moves that are unique to characters should stay imo, just have minor changes. But hey, im not the PMBR so w/e.
Yeah, the way I mentioned above was that it could work on an additive system—GnW's hammer will cycle through results 1 to 8 until the sum of the hammers that make contact reach 9 or more (or a higher figure, if balance requires it) at which point the next hammer is a guaranteed 9. Luigi's misfire works at least somewhat like this in that the misfire can be stored, although there's still an element of randomness to that and my solution would be similar—a system in which acquiring the misfire is based on connecting with other luigi missiles, or some other way in which the misfire becomes a reward for competent play rather than a coin flip with a diminishing chance for failure as time goes on.
I honestly like that idea man!
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
its because of this that hammer is perfectly fine. You get varied results based on your roll, higher number = higher reward, and dont forget, moves get weakened from being used too much, so a smart player wouldn't even consider spamming hammer to try and get a 9, unless they wanted to save a roll for later, WHICH AT THAT POINT the result wouldn't be as random as no dot hammer. Along with the fact that a Hammer result will NEVER be the last 2 numbers, Hammer is fine as it is, and GNW is currently fine as a character (i still want minor fixes to some moves unrelated to hammer), if you want a move thats even more ****ing dumb than hammer, you shouldve been around complaining when Fat Bacon was a thing.
jesus christ the **** is it with PM players, one guy breaks out a character OH GOD, X CHARACTER IS SO BROKEN PLEASE NERF
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Spoon~
Smash Ace
Fat bacon was hype.
Yung Mei
Where all da hot anime moms at
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2009
- Messages
- 5,341
i still remember when it first came out, it was cool at first, but then people immediately realized that it was too dumb
I know seriously, its like "idk how to deal with this move/character, that means the move/character is OP, so this move/character needs a nerf"
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shapular
Smash Ace
Not at all. It's not a completely random thing entirely out of the player's control. It's a risk/reward tradeoff. A Game & Watch has full control over when he uses the hammer and knows that if certain numbers come up he's going to get punished for it.
By "cycles", do you mean it goes through 1-8 sequentially, or it throws out random hammers from 1-8? If it goes sequentially, that's still three very powerful potential kill moves in a row from 6-8 that will be guaranteed to come up. If it's random, then assuming that 1 or 2 are still out for the first hammer as you said above and that G&W connects with his first two hammers (not that hard to do if you wait till you can combo into it), that's a 78% chance of getting a 9 in the third hammer. Even if you add 1 and 2 back in, it's still a 56% chance of getting the 9, compared to a 37% chance of getting a 9 in the first three hammers as it is now. If you knock it up to 12 and take the 1 and 2 back out, it's down to a 33% chance, but it still goes up to 100% once he gets the numbers he needs. Then he can just save it till he can get an early combo into it and get a guaranteed early kill. You're almost certainly going to see more 9's if you de-randomize it. Is it worth it to you to give a character a free disjointed Rest once or twice a game when he doesn't need the extra kill power, for the sake of the virtue of anti-randomness?
Controlled_Chaos
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2014
- Messages
- 29
I feel GaW should stay true to his games. The hammer was random in his games, and I think playability/balance should mix with his games, not replace it.
I think the hammer is good as it is, but if it would change, the random mechanic should stay. I would be dissapointed if it didnt, or didnt include another aspect from his games instead.
I think the hammer is good as it is, but if it would change, the random mechanic should stay. I would be dissapointed if it didnt, or didnt include another aspect from his games instead.
Spoon~
Smash Ace
The hammer is yolo status, you have to be about that life.
I sometimes feel less than confident in the literacy of my fellow smashboards posters. The change I proposed for game and watch could very easily be interpreted as a buff, certainly I think it would be a buff as it would give the player absolute control over his 9s.
Authenticity is a secondary concern in designing a competitive game to maintaining the consistency of result as a product of player input exclusively. I understand that sentiment, but if we applied that to everything in smash bros. all the pokemon characters would roll randomly for damage and could get critical hits, or would be affected by the type chart—as Pokemon trainer's team was in brawl, a detail that basically nobody liked.
Your second sentence here is paradoxical. He has full control only over whether or not he uses the hammer, and he knows at any given moment what exactly the roll is whether it's a 1/7 initial roll or a 1/4 (I think) 1 dot roll. But he does not have full control over the result of the hammer. I understand that it's not completely random, but that doesn't really justify the aspects that are.
Risk/reward tradeoffs in competitive games are best based on your assessment of your own abilities and your opponent's options. Risky and rewarding play is being jiggs at 100% and reading a roll to rest. No randomness involved, that is all decision making from both sides leading to an outcome that could be replicated every single time if the players made the same input. Not so for hammer.
Based on the entire rest of my argument do you really think I would want any aspect of the mechanic to be randomized? My proposition was sequential, potentially starting at 3 instead of 1 because 1 and 2 are just garbage—and in theory, would be punishments for repeated misses as once the cycle reached them you'd need to hammer twice to get back to 3, requiring either a KO on your opponent or a reeeeally unpunishable position. I'm ok with game and watch having kill moves when he reaches higher numbers. And in any case, my proposal can be revamped. You can go sequentially, but drop down a number for every missed hammer and instead of the result being additive you need to hit an 8 before you get a 9. I personally don't like that change as much because it would seem to restrict the strategies one could employ with various hammer numbers, but I'm really just brainstorming here—one way or another, there is potential for improvement here.
And yes, I would gladly give game and watch players more 9s if they weren't random. If that proved to be unambiguously overpowered, then the point I made earlier stands—something that is broken is not less broken when it is randomized, it just only has the occasion to rear its ugly head once in a while. The Freeze status in pokemon is bar none the most powerful status but it can't be accomplished via anything but RNG—that doesn't mean that when it occurs it isn't the most ludicrously overpowered possible outcome of an attack. But as far as PM goes I'm wholly unconvinced that giving game and watch players more control over their 9s would make the character overpowered, but I'm fairly certain he would see more play as a result. I doubt he'd reach a point of overrepresentation or disproportionately positive tournament results.
I sit here thinking about video games all day, glad someone appreciates it :]
GeZ
Smash Lord
I'm sorry man but like everyone's been saying G-Dubs is good as is. The hammer is random but it's fun for that because of its inherent flavor and pew pew factor. The PMBR have personally addressed this request before saying derandomizing this move would make it too strong and take away from the flavor too much.
Maestro_
Court Composer
Ugh...
10ughs
10ughs
Metmetm3t
Smash Lord
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You can't have a G&W boards without judgement crusades.
If it helps, for the next tournament match on stream that involves Gordo, a stitch face or a misfire changing the outcome of a game, I will GLADLY go to the board of that character and write just as voluminously on the sins of RNG mechanics only to be shouted down by all and sundry. I'd do the same with olimar if I understood anything about that character. This is not special for you guys.
GeZ
Smash Lord
That's not the point man. It's a part of the game. Playing around it is actually fun for a lot of people, and hype for a lot of viewers. RNG can ruin aspects of a fighting game but in Smash it's all hype and fun! From the smash of a stitch face to the insane slaughter of a 9 hammer, everyone here loves it!
Part of the game is a poor argument, PM is the only smash game that makes any explicit attempt to appeal to competitiveness and rng in all cases detracts from that. I don't particularly love it and I definitely don't think I'm alone in disliking it—certainly some of the subdued commentary after RNG plays a heavy role in a match might suggest that some other people agree—and hype is infinitely better generated through impressive displays of skill. If I wanted to be titillated by luck I'd be shooting craps.
Vyke
Smash Champion
The RNG will stay. There's nothing anyone can say to change it, there's no point in arguing about it, and you should move on to a more conductive topic.
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