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Undiscovered Aerial Interrupts

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
496
[collapse=Falco]
Falco Shorthop Dair AI to shine
http://gfycat.com/AdorableDelayedDanishswedishfarmdog

0 - Dashing/running
1 - Jump
14 - Dair (earliest)
17 - Land (earliest)
18 -..................................................... Dair (latest)
21 - Can now move/attack (earliest) ...... Land (latest)
25 -...................................................... Can now move/attack (latest)

5 frame window to dair, the earlier, the faster you land.

It works at one of the FoD platform levels, and there are smaller gaps on the lower or higher levels that are better to use a different aerial.
[/collapse]

[collapse=Doc and Mario]http://smashboards.com/threads/doc-advanced-tech-frame-data-megathread.378813/ .

[/collapse]

[collapse=Zelda]
just found a 9 galint zelda ai.

zelda edgehop ai

http://gfycat.com/NaturalGrimBasil

1 - Drop (no fastfall)
5 - DoubleJump towards stage
11 - Fair
17 - Land - autocancels
21 - Can cancel landing (move/attack)
30 - Tangible

Wow, for once battlefield actually makes it better. Turns it into a 13 galint


http://gfycat.com/FrailCoarseIberianmidwifetoad

1 - Drop
2 - DoubleJump towards stage
7 - Fair
13 - Land autocancel
17 - Can cancel landing (move/attack)
30 - Tangible

First method is second fastest method for battlefield.

Honestly this would be useful tech for sheik mains too, cos they are most likely gunna be grabbing the edge if they transform for recovery. Given that it's way better then ledgedash, it would be worth their time.




she also has an 8 galint one with bair
1- Drop
2 - DoubleJump towards stage
9 - Bair (need to l-cancel)
13 - Land
22 - Can now move/attack
30 - Tangible

but judging by the inputs, its probably way harder to perform.
[/collapse]

[collapse=Mewtwo]Invincible tilts! Nair is much better than both upair and dair, and easier to do.
Mewtwo Edgehop Nair Aerial Interrupt

http://gfycat.com/FocusedScaredGelada

0 - CliffWait 0
1 - Down/Back - Drop
4 - Double Jump + Towards Stage
5 - Hold towards stage
12 - Can now stop holding towards stage
17 - Nair
20 - Land (autocancels)
24 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)
30 - Tangible

This seems like a much easier AI to perform as you do not fastfall, and there are nice gaps between each input.



DJ AI to Platform

http://gfycat.com/EasyAridKentrosaurus

Battlefield fastest:
1 - Jump
2 - Jump
3 - Jump
4 - Jump
5 - Jump
22 - Double Jump
23 - Aerial (except fair) - Land (autocancels)
27 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)

DJ AI - act on 27
Upair Plat AI - act on 28
fullhop waveland down - act on 32

Even faster then the upair one and suuuuuuper easy, so easy that me, a scrub and non-mew2 main can do it consistently after like a minute of practice. Best method I found was pressing x/y to dj then z to aerial. The timing is pretty self explanatory as you dj right as you are above the platform, same timing you would for a perfect waveland. Cool thing is you can do any aerial except fair (because it doesn't autocancel early), I recommend dair purely because it's voice sfx comes out on frame 1.

Battlefield slower:
1 - Jump
hold
5 - Jump
22 - Double Jump
24 - Aerial (except fair)
26 - Land (autocancels)
30 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)

Other stages - (most have some frame lenience between dj and aerial, but the following are the fastest possible methods)
Yoshis flat surface:
1 - Jump
hold
5 - Jump
19 - Double Jump
20 - Aerial (except fair)
22 - Land (autocancels)
26 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)
(can do it on various parts of the slanted edges, but some points won't land fast enough and won't autocancel)

Dreamland:
1 - Jump
hold
5 - Jump
25 - Double Jump
27 - Aerial (except fair)
28 - Land (autocancels)
32 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)

Pokemon Stadium Neutral:
1 - Jump
hold
5 - Jump
20 - Double Jump
22 - Aerial (except fair)
24 - Land (autocancels)

[/collapse]

[collapse=Mr.G&W]
Edgehop Bair AI

http://gfycat.com/TotalGracefulAcouchi

1 - Drop
2 - Fastfall
5 - DJ towards stage
19 - Bair
23 - can move/attack
30 - Tangible

7 galint. Not great, may as well do the NIL.

Platform Bair AI

http://gfycat.com/RapidInnocentCub

Battlefield
1 - Jump
hold
4 - Jump
22 - Bair - land - autocancels
26 - can move/attack

Bair AI - act on 26
Waveland - act on 32
Full hop NIL - act on 36

I need to experiment a lot more on these. Bair and Nair are probably the only aerials that could be useful, bair moves a tiny tiny bit downward, and nair moves upward instantly. Maybe some ECB manipulation too.
[/collapse]

[collapse=Ness]Ness has the same DJ AI to plat as Mew2, but a bit worse.

Ness DJ AI Platform

http://gfycat.com/ValidCraftyCoral

ness djc ai plat battlefield
1 - Jump
hold
4 - Jump
20 - DJ
21 - Any aerial
24 - Land autocancel
28 - can cancel landing (move/attack)

In comparison, waveland is 2 frames slower.[/collapse]

[collapse=Bowser]Bowser has a pretty good edgehop AI. You get 7 intangible frames once landing lag is done. In the gif I jab, but maybe you would want to up-b cos its faster, but I didn't want to confuse the intangible frames. Or maybe you would want to spotdodge/roll.

http://gfycat.com/CompetentTimelyAmbushbug

0 - CliffWait 0
1 - Down - drop
2 - Down - Fastfall
3 -
4 - Double Jump + Towards stage
.
12 - Nair
.
17 - Cancels into Landing
.
23 - Can cancel Landing with whatever (can now move/attack)
.
30 - Tangible
[/collapse]

[collapse=Pichu]pichu nair - AIA

http://gfycat.com/FearlessGrandioseEidolonhelvum
[/collapse]



[collapse=Original thread]Hey guys, I've been testing the roster for aerial interrupts and found these. Most aren't like the well known ones (samus, sheik), as they aren't in autocancel frames.They are generally good for getting onto a platform quickly, AIA is an Aerial Interrupt Attack, which is the same as an AI except there are active hitboxes.

doc/mario upair - AIA
http://gfycat.com/SimilarVeneratedIndianjackal

http://gfycat.com/ImmaterialSeparateFieldmouse

pichu nair - AIA
http://gfycat.com/FearlessGrandioseEidolonhelvum

These are fullhops under a lower battlefield platform:
pikachu dair AIA - fullhop > dair on frame 1 airbourne > cancels on frame 14 of dair
mewtwo upair AI - fullhop > upair on frame 7/8/9 airbourne > cancels on frame 7/8 of upair
bowser nair AI - fullhop > nair on frame 6 airbourne > cancels on frame 6 of nair (cancels in autocancel frames)
zelda dair AI - fullhop > dair on frame 3/4/5 airbourne > cancels on frame 13/14 of dair
marth bair AI - (top plat) fullhop > double jump on frame 21 airbourne > bair on frame 6 of dj > cancels on frame 7 of bair (sooo useless)

Have these been found before? Doc and pichu I made gifs because I believe they are legitimately useful, but I haven't really explored the others yet.
[/collapse]
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I knew you could AIA with the Marios, but having a GIF to reference is nice. If you're interested in further exploration, I'd recommend messing around with ledge hop AIs since there are already some that have been shown to be useful for maintaining invul, and one that allows you to get a hitbox out during invul and land immediately would be amazing.
 

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
496
You can definitely do it with doc. Here's everything I have on his AIA, plus the platform warp cos it ties in with the yoshis edgehop. I'll look into the other now see what I can find.

Up-air Aerial Interrupt Attack (AIA) #3

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/BrilliantColossalBovine

If you Up-air whilst rising through a platform at the right time, the aerial will cancel and you will land on the platform with aerial landing lag (can be l-cancelled). There are 3 frames (at least from a full hop under a lower battlefield platform) where performing an up-air will be cancelled, but only the 3rd frame will allow a hitbox (the first hitbox of upair) to appear before the move is cancelled. You can do this on varying platform heights and from double jumps too.

Hitbox version, fullhop battlefield:

0 -
1 - Jump (jumpsquat)
2 - Jump
3 - Jump
4 - Jump
5 - First frame airborne
.
.
.
17 - Up air (up+a, c-stick up)
18 - | L-cancel window
19 - |
20 - | window end - Hitbox
21 - Cancelled
.
.
.
30 - Wait (can now move/attack)

From a fullhop under a lower battlefield platform, this is the frame you want to input up-a/c-stick up for the hitbox version:


Edge cancelled

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ImmaterialSeparateFieldmouse

The timing for the upair is exactly the same as the original, the only difference with this is holding a direction to keep your momentum. I performed an up-air once edge cancelled, but you can use any air move you like.

From the ledge
Optimal version

So I discovered the yoshis extra hitbox version isn't technically an AIA, but rather a Platform Warp Aerial (look at the frames, the cancel happens on the 10th double jump frame). But considering it is so similar to any other setup which is an AIA, I'm just gunna leave it here.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/MasculineUntidyElkhound

0 - Cliffwait
1 - Down (drop)
2 - Down (FastFall)
3 -
4 -
5 - Double jump + Towards stage
6 -
7 -
8 -
9 - (can up-air a frame earlier on yoshis, you get 1 more hitbox frame before it cancels, thus 1 more frame to l-cancel)
10 - Up+A / C-stick Up
11 - | L-cancel window
12 - |
13 - | window end - Hitbox
14 - Cancels - landing lag starts
15 -
.
.
.
23 - Wait (can now move/attack)
.
.
.
30 - Tangible

Easier version

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/PleasantBlindElver

0 - Cliffwait
1 - Down (drop)
2 - Down (fastfall)
3 -
4 -
5 -
6 - Double jump + Towards stage
7 -
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 -
12 -
13 - Up+A / C-stick Up
14 - | L-cancel window
15 - |
16 - | window end - Hitbox
17 - Cancels - landing lag starts
18 -
19 -
.
.
.
26 - Wait (can now move/attack)
27 -
28 -
29 -
30 - Tangible

You can do this without fastfall, dj on frame 15 of fall, up air on frame 9 of dj. The hitbox will be out on intangible frames, but you become tangible during landing lag.

WTF is going on?

The diamonds are called ECB Environment Collision Boxes, they show the true position of the character and are responsible for collisions with the environment and other characters. On the frame before the hitbox, you can see the ECB is short and narrow, and above the platform. On the hitbox frame, you can see the ECB gets taller and moves downward towards the platform (just above it). On the frame after the ECB (just focus on the white outline diamond), gets even taller and moves downward enough to touch the platform. When the ECB moves downward into the ground/platform, it triggers landing.

The Interrupt without the hitbox occurs when the ECB downward movement of frame 4 (first hitbox frame) goes through the platform. This is why the spacing/timing of the hitbox version is so precise, the ECB of frame 4 must not interact with the platform, and the ECB of frame 5 must interact, all whilst rising above it.

All attacks change the characters ECB in some way, this particular attack moves the ECB downward on specific frames. So with correct spacing you can make that downward movement touch a platform as you are rising above it.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/SimilarVeneratedIndianjackal

Unfortunately Luigi cannot get a hitbox out. Luigi has the exact same ECB pattern, but his hitbox comes out a frame later, and the ECB does not move downward anymore after frame 5. So if you do the same spacing with him, the move would cancel on the first hitbox frame, instead of the second.

You could maybe do it on a rising platform with TAS-like spacing but you could probably say the same thing for most aerials in the game.

When you do Mario and Doc's upair 1 frame or 2 frames earlier then my example, they will cancel it before the hitbox as well, due to frame 4's ECB downward movement.


:mariomelee: - COMPATIBLE: It works the same way, but his needs to be done 2 frames quicker.
:luigimelee: - Can AI with Up-air but only without a hitbox

Platform Warp #4

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/FlippantDelayedAquaticleech

When dropping from a platform, you can get a very quick No Impact Land if you double jump on a specific frame. Once landed you can perform any grounded move instantly.
Here is what the frame looks like:

This is the 17th frame of FALL after dropping from a platform without fastfall.

Easy Perfect Waveland

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/LonelyCreepyHorse

Just airdodge left/right the frame you would normally land.

Shielddrop - repeated first frame possible

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/WeightyDarlingHeifer

Shielddrop to jab - repeated first frame possible

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ScientificRewardingBittern

Shielddrop > Glide > Dsmash

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/WeeklyDizzyAnteater

If you use an aerial as you double jump you can "warp" to the platform just as fast, but of course suffer aerial landing lag. Down-air and Forward-air will autocancel (useless as its faster without any aerial), Back-air just doesn't cancel. Up-air and Neutral-air will cancel with hitboxes. you can L-cancel them too.

Platform Warp Up-air L-canceled

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/BothMatureCero

Platform Warp N-air L-canceled

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/OldfashionedSkeletalAmericanblackvulture

WTF is going on?

On frame 10 of Doc's double jump, his ECB dips downward. With correct timing/spacing, you can position the ECB to be just above the platform on frame 9 then dip into a platform on frame 10 and trigger a No-Impact Land. When you perform an aerial, the dip also occurs on the same frame as it is always the result of double jumping.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ElectricWhirlwindAlligatorgar

Here I do the same timing, but away from the platform to help show the ECB movement.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ComplicatedSecondhandAmericanlobster

:mariomelee: - COMPATIBLE: Works exactly the same
:luigimelee:
- COMPATIBLE: Much easier. go here for details: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-tech.308463/
 
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schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
496
Bowser has a pretty good edgehop AI. You get 7 intangible frames once landing lag is done. In the gif I jab, but maybe you would want to up-b cos its faster, but I didn't want to confuse the intangible frames. Or maybe you would want to spotdodge/roll.

http://gfycat.com/CompetentTimelyAmbushbug

0 - CliffWait 0
1 - Down - drop
2 - Down - Fastfall
3 -
4 - Double Jump + Towards stage
.
12 - Nair
.
17 - Cancels into Landing
.
23 - Can cancel Landing with whatever (can now move/attack)
.
30 - Tangible


o: Judging from this post, it doesn't seem like Mewtwo's AI was known at all before. Would you mind making a gif to illustrate it so I have a visual way example to help me practice it? The frame data is useful but I want to also see if it can be done from to get off from the ledge quickly enough to abuse. (kinda like with Samus)
http://gfycat.com/DifficultSnivelingAmericanwarmblood

Unfortunately, mewtwos doublejump kinda ruins it. This is the fastest I could do, and you get 1 frame intangible after landing lag :/ If you aren't interested that much in intangible frames there are plenty of different timings to do it. The trick is to get frame 7 or 8 of Upair when your directly above the stage, as that is when the ECB dips downward.

Here is a comparison of the AI to get onto a platform. Left being the AI and Right Waveland Down. Both jab>drop the first frame they can. AI is 4 frames faster.

http://gfycat.com/ThoughtfulOnlyAmazonparrot
 
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schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
496
Ah sorry, those numbers mean you upair on frame 7/8/9 of the fullhop. Bad phrasing on my part, lemme change that.

Mew2's Upair AI cancels on either frame 7 or 8 fyi, although even if it could cancel on the frame 9, that frame would be the landing frame and thus no hitbox would come out. Doc's AIA grants 1 hitbox frame as it cancels on the second hitbox frame.
 

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
496
Did a few more tests on mew2's ai edgehop and found more optimal setups.

http://gfycat.com/WeightyHealthyDunlin

0 - Cliffwait 0
1 - Drop
2 - Double Jump + Towards stage
11 - Upair
18 - Cancels
28 - Wait (can move/attack)
30 - Tangible

This works on all stages, but Yoshis cancels 1 frame faster thus gives you 3 intangible frames. Battlefield is a little tricky as you need to abuse ECB manipulation so that you don't get stuck under the stage, you can do this by grabbing the edge after your double jump (may as well just do the 1 frame setup)..
 
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schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
496
Great find dude! Invincible tilts! Nair is much better than both upair and dair, and easier to do.
http://gfycat.com/FocusedScaredGelada

0 - CliffWait 0
1 - Down/Back - Drop
4 - Double Jump + Towards Stage
5 - Hold towards stage
12 - Can now stop holding towards stage
17 - Nair
20 - Land (autocancels)
24 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)
30 - Tangible

This seems like a much easier AI to perform as you do not fastfall, and there are nice gaps between each input.

Dair doesn't seem all that great from the ledge
http://gfycat.com/FailingSimilarCatbird

This is the fastest I could find, and you become tangible 2 frames before you can act.

There may be better setups then this, and most likely extra frames on yoshis, I'll test it more tomorrow and on platforms too.
 

Stratocaster

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
672
Location
Knoxville, TN
Do you think you're @ Kadano Kadano or something? ha but really this is good work. If you feel compelled look into Falcon's up air. I've done it on accident as a ledge hop and today I accidentally did a double jump up air which interrupted on a platform like this. It'd be pretty cool if it was figured out how to reproduce this consistently. I tried repeating what I did and couldn't get it to work again.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Do you think you're @ Kadano Kadano or something? ha but really this is good work. If you feel compelled look into Falcon's up air. I've done it on accident as a ledge hop and today I accidentally did a double jump up air which interrupted on a platform like this. It'd be pretty cool if it was figured out how to reproduce this consistently. I tried repeating what I did and couldn't get it to work again.
CF’s uair has no initial autocancel, so unless you intend to hit with it, I recommend opting for bair instead.

Concerning the aerial interrupt from the ledge, that’s slightly tricky with Falcon. Basically, it only works when you grab the ledge from the early part of JumpAerial or the apex of your up-B.
Wavedashing to the ledge results in still having grounded-like ECB extensions which is really bad for converting galint.



Here’s the best AI and its setup I was able to find:
http://gfycat.com/WiltedPlumpGrayling
 
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schmooblidon

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Messages
496
Do you think you're @ Kadano Kadano or something? ha but really this is good work. If you feel compelled look into Falcon's up air. I've done it on accident as a ledge hop and today I accidentally did a double jump up air which interrupted on a platform like this. It'd be pretty cool if it was figured out how to reproduce this consistently. I tried repeating what I did and couldn't get it to work again.
Haha, I can only dream that one day I will know as much as Kadano knows about this game.
I'll look into the platform ai, but considering he moves so damn fast, it might only be useful to getting to the top platform.

edit: tested it a bit, and seems like you need to aerial after double jump frame 10 and can use any aerial except upair. Problem is, timing it so frame 10 you are just above the platform and moving slow enough to AI, is very similar to a NIL which is faster and more flexible.

Here a bit of data for comparison

Battlefield top plat:

Fastest AI
1 - Jump
hold
4 - Jump
15 - Double Jump
27 - Aerial (except upair) - Land (autocancels)
31 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)

Fastest NIL
1 - Jump
hold
4 - Jump
14 - Double Jump
28 - Land
29 - Can now move/attack

I love you schmooblidon. This is exactly what I wanted for christmas.
Good news and bad news. Bad news first. The Nair edgehop AI (at least that setup) doesn't work on battlefield as you get stuck under the stage, I'll try to find a compromise. Now for the good news.

DJ AI to Platform
http://gfycat.com/EasyAridKentrosaurus

Battlefield fastest:
1 - Jump
2 - Jump
3 - Jump
4 - Jump
5 - Jump
22 - Double Jump
23 - Aerial (except fair) - Land (autocancels)
27 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)

DJ AI - act on 27
Upair Plat AI - act on 28
fullhop waveland down - act on 32

Even faster then the upair one and suuuuuuper easy, so easy that me, a scrub and non-mew2 main can do it consistently after like a minute of practice. Best method I found was pressing x/y to dj then z to aerial. The timing is pretty self explanatory as you dj right as you are above the platform, same timing you would for a perfect waveland. Cool thing is you can do any aerial except fair (because it doesn't autocancel early), I recommend dair purely because it's voice sfx comes out on frame 1.

Battlefield slower:
1 - Jump
hold
5 - Jump
22 - Double Jump
24 - Aerial (except fair)
26 - Land (autocancels)
30 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)

Other stages - (most have some frame lenience between dj and aerial, but the following are the fastest possible methods)
Yoshis flat surface:
1 - Jump
hold
5 - Jump
19 - Double Jump
20 - Aerial (except fair)
22 - Land (autocancels)
26 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)
(can do it on various parts of the slanted edges, but some points won't land fast enough and won't autocancel)

Dreamland:
1 - Jump
hold
5 - Jump
25 - Double Jump
27 - Aerial (except fair)
28 - Land (autocancels)
32 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)

Pokemon Stadium Neutral:
1 - Jump
hold
5 - Jump
20 - Double Jump
22 - Aerial (except fair)
24 - Land (autocancels)
 
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Kadano

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Messages
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Location
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Wow, repeating the scene with normal visibility is a great idea. Thank you. I never thought of this, haha. It’s even very little work for me to implement this since I can copy the input display part, which is by far the largest amount of work in my routine.

I already deleted the savestate for Falcon and aligning the camera exactly the same is just too hard, so I settled for a somewhat similar camera. I hope this isn’t too distracting.

http://gfycat.com/TidyScaryAzurevase
 
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schmooblidon

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Messages
496
The thing about mew2's double jump is that it stops your upward momentum completely, and then you must wait a few frames before you aerial to gain any height. The longer you wait to aerial to higher you will reach, but it takes too long for it to be useful.

But this sudden halt of upward movement can be useful, as it's what makes the AI to platform tech I showed work. You need to stop your momentum when you are just above the platform so that on the next frame, the downward ECB extension of the aerial touches the platform instead of you rising too far above it.

Saying that, nair does have a good ECB extension on frame 4 which makes the edgehop AI work. I assumed the method I showed would be faster, but I checked to sure.

fullhop battlefield - (other stages will have similar results)
dj on airbourne frame - nair on dj frame - nair cancels on - act on
1 - none
2 - none
3 - none
4 - none
5 - none
6 - none
7 - 14 (AI) - 4 - act on 32
8 - 12 (AI) - 4 - act on 31
9 - none
10 - 9 (AI) - 4 - act on 30
11 - 8 (AI) - 4 - act on 30
12 - 7 (AIA) - 5 - act on 40
13 - none
14 - none
15 - none
16 - none
17 - 2 (AI) - 1 - act on 27 (method I showed earlier)

Note, nair's ECB moves a tiny bit more down on frame 5 which makes that AIA work. Given that frame 5 is the first hitbox frame, normally the hitbox wouldn't appear as the move is cancelled, but mew2's nair has a special property were when you are detected as landing during frame 5 - 38, a big hitbox will appear on the frame you land.

There is a distinctive gap between airbourne frame 12 - 17, this is because doublejump locks your ECB for 11 frames, and so you must Nair at least 7 frames after doublejumping for the Nair's ECB extension to have an effect.
 

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
496
In terms of AIs, I'm 99% Falco has nothing useful due to his insane jump's vertical speed. You need to be moving slow enough for the ECB to be above the plat/stage on one frame, then touching the plat/stage on the next.

It would be great to discover some other tech for Falco, but I have no idea where to look. Seems like he has been run pretty dry.

In other news, Ness has the same DJ AI to plat as Mew2, but a bit worse.

http://gfycat.com/ValidCraftyCoral

ness djc ai plat battlefield
1 - Jump
hold
4 - Jump
20 - DJ
21 - Any aerial
24 - Land autocancel
28 - can cancel landing (move/attack)

In comparison, waveland is 2 frames slower.
 
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schmooblidon

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496
Yes exactly. You probably could AI edgehop with him, but you would need to drop so low and burn so many intangible frames it would be pointless.

I should probably look into edgehops for zelda, ness and roy. Looks like they could use the help.

edit: well that didnt take long. just found a 9 galint zelda ai.

http://gfycat.com/NaturalGrimBasil

1 - Drop (no fastfall)
5 - DoubleJump towards stage
11 - Fair
17 - Land - autocancels
21 - Can cancel landing (move/attack)
30 - Tangible

Wow, for once battlefield actually makes it better. Turns it into a 13 galint

http://gfycat.com/FrailCoarseIberianmidwifetoad

1 - Drop
2 - DoubleJump towards stage
7 - Fair
13 - Land autocancel
17 - Can cancel landing (move/attack)
30 - Tangible

First method is second fastest method for battlefield.

Honestly this would be useful tech for sheik mains too, cos they are most likely gunna be grabbing the edge if they transform for recovery. Given that it's way better then ledgedash, it would be worth their time.




she also has an 8 galint one with bair
1- Drop
2 - DoubleJump towards stage
9 - Bair (need to l-cancel)
13 - Land
22 - Can now move/attack
30 - Tangible

but judging by the inputs, its probably way harder to perform.
 
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schmooblidon

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Honestly, I don't know. It seems that when doublejumping against the slanted stage you move up slightly faster. If I do the same timing on other stages with vertical walls, she doesn't make it above the stage in time. Perhaps it's the same thing that happens with Final Destination's sides. Couldn't tell you why though.

Found a compromise for mew2 bf edgehop, but it's hard

http://gfycat.com/HarmoniousUnhealthyAlbacoretuna

mew2 edgehop battlefield
ecb manipulation - grab edge at apex of doublejump or anytime after (without performing any other attacks)
ecb updates 3 frames after CliffWait 0, or if you double jump within those 3 frames then jumpaerialf 9.00 (10th frame of DJ) (you need to dj within those frames for this to work)

1 - Drop
2 - DJ towards stage
3 - Hold towards stage
10 - can stop holding toward stage
14 - Nair
17 - Land autocancel
21 - can act
30 - Tangible

It's a bit tas-like but it's at the very least interesting. His doublejump is too slow for you to really abuse the ECB manipulation, which is a damn shame because it literally goes flat for some frames, which I've never seen before.
 
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flieskiller

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I've watched Game&Watch ECB, his jumps and attacks... I guess it's impossible to do any tricks of the sort with that character?
 

Bones0

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Yes exactly. You probably could AI edgehop with him, but you would need to drop so low and burn so many intangible frames it would be pointless.
What about doing rising dair from the ledge to land on side plats? I've done something like that before, but I'm not sure if it's much easier or faster than a no impact land.

Also, it seems like virtually all characters can land from a rising aerial when they hit an opponent on a plat at the perfect time, so a look into how the hitlag is affecting the ECB in these situations would be kind of interesting.
 
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schmooblidon

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I've watched Game&Watch ECB, his jumps and attacks... I guess it's impossible to do any tricks of the sort with that character?
I found these,

Edgehop Bair AI
http://gfycat.com/TotalGracefulAcouchi

1 - Drop
2 - Fastfall
5 - DJ towards stage
19 - Bair
23 - can move/attack
30 - Tangible

7 galint. Not great, may as well do the NIL.

Platform Bair AI
http://gfycat.com/RapidInnocentCub

Battlefield
1 - Jump
hold
4 - Jump
22 - Bair - land - autocancels
26 - can move/attack

Bair AI - act on 26
Waveland - act on 32
Full hop NIL - act on 36

I need to experiment a lot more on these. Bair and Nair are probably the only aerials that could be useful, bair moves a tiny tiny bit downward, and nair moves upward instantly. Maybe some ECB manipulation too.

What about doing rising dair from the ledge to land on side plats? I've done something like that before, but I'm not sure if it's much easier or faster than a no impact land.

Also, it seems like virtually all characters can land from a rising aerial when they hit an opponent on a plat at the perfect time, so a look into how the hitlag is affecting the ECB in these situations would be kind of interesting.
experimented on yoshis a bit

falco edgehop yoshis platform

AI
1 - Drop no fastfall
5 - DJ
18 - Dair
20 - Land autocancel
24 - can move/attack

6 frames intangible

NIL
1 - Drop
2 - Fastfall
3 - DJ
22 - can move/attack

8 frames intangible

ECB's are frozen in whatever state they were in when hitlag starts, except when they are due to update (as far as I know, dont quote me). So if there is an downward extension update you can abuse for whatever character then yeah you could. I'm pretty sure most don't though, a lot have upward extensions. I'll definitely experiment though, thanks for the idea.
 
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schmooblidon

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For the normal ai, if you hold towards stage on the DJ frame, you will get stuck under the stage even if you start drifting back on the frame afterwards.
This altered setup works though
1 - Drop no fastfall
4 - DJ (neutral)
5 - Hold toward stage
17 - Stop holding toward stage - Nair
18 - Towards stage for at least this frame
20 - Land (autocancels)
24 - Can cancel landing with whatever (can now move/attack)
30 - Tangible

or this new one

1 - Drop
2 - DJ towards stage
3 - Towards stage
7 - Away from stage
8 - Press towards stage for at least 1 frame between frame 8 and frame 16
14 - Nair
17 - Land autocancels
21 - can move/attack
30 - Tangible
(there's a bunch of variations of this method, but this is the least tas-like)

Not exactly practical, but interesting I guess.

In other news,

Marth can Platform Warp NIL and Aerial

NIL

http://gfycat.com/LawfulSardonicChrysomelid

Fastest
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
5 - Fastfall
12 - DoubleJump
21 - Land
22 - can move/attack

Aerials

http://gfycat.com/TidySophisticatedBetafish

Fair
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
14 - DoubleJump
15 - Fair - need to l-cancel before frame 24
18 - Hit (hitlag starts)
23 - ECB update - Land
30 - can move/attack

Nair
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
15 - DoubleJump
16 - Nair - need to l-cancel before frame 24
21 - Hit (hitlag starts)
24 - ECB update - Land
31 - can move/attack

Here is the explanation of doc's. It's pretty much identical.
WTF is going on?

On frame 10 of Doc's double jump, his ECB updates to a set position. In most situations this update will not make much difference, specifically when the ECB on frames 1-9 have already adjusted to the extension or near enough. But when you drop through a platform, your ECB gains more downward extension the longer you fall. So when you double jump after dropping from a platform after a certain amount of frames, the frame 10 update will have a considerable effect and shift his ECB downward. With correct timing/spacing, you can position the ECB to be just above the platform on frame 9 then shift into a platform on the frame 10 update and trigger a No-Impact Land.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ElectricWhirlwindAlligatorgar

Here I do the same timing, but away from the platform to help show the ECB update.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ComplicatedSecondhandAmericanlobster

When you perform an aerial after the double jump, the frame 10 update shift still occurs, and can happen during hitlag. Because the update can happen in hitlag, it makes the tech limited to only a few specific setups. This is because you need to start hitlag when your ECB is above the platform, as your ECB will be frozen until the update. Updating in hitlag also triggers landing, but you will still be stuck on the first frame of the aerial landing animation till hitlag is over. Because of this, you must L-cancel before the update.
edit: wow sheik can do them too. i think a tonne of chars will be able to.
 
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hectohertz

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so i've been doing aerial interrupt up-airs with sheik to get onto a sideplatform of BF/DL, but are you saying you can do these AND have a hitbox come out?

show me your moves


also this thread is awesome, makes me wanna get back into looking for AIs
 

schmooblidon

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so i've been doing aerial interrupt up-airs with sheik to get onto a sideplatform of BF/DL, but are you saying you can do these AND have a hitbox come out?

show me your moves


also this thread is awesome, makes me wanna get back into looking for AIs
well... sort of. I wouldn't exactly call it an aerial interrupt, because it is much more to do with the doublejump frame 10 ecb update, then the aerials ecb pattern. its not super flexible either, as you can only do it when dropping from a platform then doublejumping back on with the aerial, and they must hit something as hitlag is required.

I actually made a thread about them, but I don't think anyone cares lol.

Sheik

Aerials

http://gfycat.com/TinyConventionalAnnelid

DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
15 - fair on 2 (gif), bair on 3, upair on 2 (gif)
16 - fair on 3, upair on 3
17 - nair on 5, fair on 3 and 4, upair on 3, bair on 4
18 - nair on 6, fair on 4 and 5, upair on 4 and 5, bair on 5 and 6
19 - nair on 7, fair on 5, upair on 5, bair on 6
There are some characters that can aerial interrupt with a hitbox. Doc up air, mario up air, pichu nair and pikachu dair are ones that I have found so far.
 

Bones0

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For what it's worth, these might be much more viable in actual gameplay when combined with shield dropping. If you can shield drop out of pressure and rise back up with an AI hitbox, that's pretty useful.
 

hectohertz

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Messages
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Location
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well... sort of. I wouldn't exactly call it an aerial interrupt, because it is much more to do with the doublejump frame 10 ecb update, then the aerials ecb pattern. its not super flexible either, as you can only do it when dropping from a platform then doublejumping back on with the aerial, and they must hit something as hitlag is required.

I actually made a thread about them, but I don't think anyone cares lol.



There are some characters that can aerial interrupt with a hitbox. Doc up air, mario up air, pichu nair and pikachu dair are ones that I have found so far.

*I care* <3 <3 <3

especially b/c i use shield drop a lot, so going with what bones was saying, i could actually see this being decently useful.


does sheik have "platform warps" like you found with doc (ones that don't require hitlag)?
edit: from re-reading the doc thread, i would think the same timing you are using for the platform warp fair/uair would work just to do a platform warp NIL. is that right? i can test it at some point
 
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TheCrimsonBlur

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I love this thread. This + the doc thread were incredibly well made. We might have a new frame god joining the ranks :)

@ schmooblidon schmooblidon Do you have a gif of Marth's Platform Warp aerial from the edge? How much intangibility can he get on that?

Still a liiittle bit confused on the difference between Platform Warps and regular Aerial Interrupts, but I probably just need to reread the explanations more lmao

Love the repeating of the scene with normal visibility for the gifs btw. Very useful.

<3
 
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schmooblidon

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*I care* <3 <3 <3

especially b/c i use shield drop a lot, so going with what bones was saying, i could actually see this being decently useful.


does sheik have "platform warps" like you found with doc (ones that don't require hitlag)?
edit: from re-reading the doc thread, i would think the same timing you are using for the platform warp fair/uair would work just to do a platform warp NIL. is that right? i can test it at some point
Unfortunately not. She moves way too fast for the ecb to be lower on the following frame. Plus the ecb update is so tiny on her doublejump ecb pattern. The aerials work because she is frozen at the perfect height, so the update has no problem touching the platform.

The only NILs I've found so far are the mario bros, marth and ness. Probs some more lower tier chars to discover, might look into that.

I love this thread. This + the doc thread were incredibly well made. We might have a new frame god joining the ranks :)

@ schmooblidon schmooblidon Do you have a gif of Marth's Platform Warp aerial from the edge? How much intangibility can he get on that?

Still a liiittle bit confused on the difference between Platform Warps and regular Aerial Interrupts, but I probably just need to reread the explanations more lmao

Love the repeating of the scene with normal visibility for the gifs btw. Very useful.

<3
Really unfortunate for Marth and Roy, they do not make it above the stage on frame 10 of their doublejump, which is when the ECB dips down to connect with the ground. If only they didnt hang so low on the ledge, they would have ganon-level NILs.
 

Quillion

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It's things like these that convince me that there are no tiers in Melee. The opposite of 20XX will come, I assure you.
 

schmooblidon

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Mewtwo is cool and all, but how about some Falco tricks? :awesome:
Duuuude! Was digging up some old threads and saw this lovage post.


heres mango doing that dair aerial interrupt i was talking about
he did it by accident but it looks like that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGDeVFEo6XM
at 2:19
Falco Shorthop Dair AI to shine
http://gfycat.com/AdorableDelayedDanishswedishfarmdog

0 - Dashing/running
1 - Jump
14 - Dair (earliest)
17 - Land (earliest)
18 -..................................................... Dair (latest)
21 - Can now move/attack (earliest) ...... Land (latest)
25 -...................................................... Can now move/attack (latest)

5 frame window to dair, the earlier, the faster you land.

It works at one of the FoD platform levels, and there are smaller gaps on the lower or higher levels that are better to use a different aerial.
 
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