Understanding brawl: FRAME DATA: How does this help me get better?

[professor mgw]

UNDERSTANDING BRAWL

This thread will help people understanding mainly how learning in depth things will aid a person into becoming a overall better player. Many people (I.e noobs mainly) tend to ignore the deeper or more complex things of smash. One of these complex problems are frame data. People new to smash either:

A)Find it completely useless
B)Don't understand it
C)Don't bother to understand it

So the Question is, how does frame data improve my knowledge of brawl, and will it make me a better player?

 

[Xebenkeck]

-Knowing your fastest options OoS is useful.
-It also will show you which of your characters moves are safest because of how fast cool down lag is.

 

[theunabletable]

You don't HAVE to know your frame data to get good. But it lets you know what your fastests/safest options are.

Like, for instance, I would have NEVER guessed that Snake's Dtilt hitbox came out just as fast as uptilt, and has slightly more horizontal range.

What do ya know, though, that's what the data says.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It's actaully quite essential to know your options and what's going to be safe on their shield and on yours. You have know what to punish with if someone pressures your shield. If you use an OoS too late, you can't punish the move and you get punished for using a move that's too slow. Knowing your AC'ing is also a need to know b/c it will reduce your landing lag. You need to know how much lag from landing to make sure that they don't have an option to land.

Take for example a ROB vs. other characters. If the ROB times a d-smash right as you land you can jab if you have frame 1 or frame 2. But since you know the move also hits on X frame, you know that if he does it just a bit earlier you have no options and you shouldn't land next to them. There are many instances in game where you should know your frame options.

 

[professor mgw]

How many frames are within a second?

And people usually get turned off when they see terms they don't understand. If possible give a defintion for a term you think will be used often here.

 

[fullynick]

60 frames in a second

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok, so for the term you should know is most likely Advantage. Usually this will be a negative number. But this shows how many frames you can attack them before they can attack you if you hit their sheild. Most of the time it's actually negative meaning that they can attack you before you attack them. Understanding this is essential for knowing how to punish OoS on your opponet.

Another important one is Hit On or some variation of it. This will help you to know how to punish OoS.

In order to punish OoS you have to understand this:
Sheild Drop is 7 frames
Jump OoS is immediate, however it takes 7 frames to lift off of the ground.
JumpSquat (the animation before you are airborne) is the 7 frames. However JumpSquat can be cancelled into an Up-B or U-smash as soon as frame one. Making a frame 4 up-b four frames OoS.

 

[shadyf0o]

How many frames are within a second?

And people usually get turned off when they see terms they don't understand. If possible give a defintion for a term you think will be used often here.

I agree. I can tell you that OoS means "out of shield." But, Rocket, what do you mean by ACing? I'm unfamiliar with that acronym.

Professor, personally I do not think of frame data while I play. I learn which moves beat out others in various situations through experience. I personally don't think there is much of a need to overcomplicate the game by doing mathmatics in my head while I play. Again, that is my personal opinion. I do; however, occasionally look up framedata for specific moves I am having difficulty with. I am not doubting that it can be helpful. I would probably benefit from paying closer attention to frame data, but I simply don't have the time to afford to it. I play just fine without it.

Ok, so for the term you should know is most likely Advantage. Usually this will be a negative number. But this shows how many frames you can attack them before they can attack you if you hit their sheild. Most of the time it's actually negative meaning that they can attack you before you attack them. Understanding this is essential for knowing how to punish OoS on your opponet.

Another important one is Hit On or some variation of it. This will help you to know how to punish OoS.

In order to punish OoS you have to understand this:
Sheild Drop is 7 frames
Jump OoS is immediate, however it takes 7 frames to lift off of the ground.
JumpSquat (the animation before you are airborne) is the 7 frames. However JumpSquat can be cancelled into an Up-B or U-smash as soon as frame one. Making a frame 4 up-b four frames OoS.

When you say that shield drop is 7 frames, you mean that 7 frames must be calculated on top of the frames of the attack you are planning to use out of shield, correct?

 

[Alus]

60 frames in a second

Are you sure?

 

[Dekar173]

@shady- your point about not thinking about the math behind you playing is sort of you just not understanding what the frame data is for.

Let's say player A knows Marth's upB has invincibility frames on start up, and player B does not.

Player A is better prepared, without even memorizing the frame data, from just knowing that marth's upB is going to tear **** up (without being punishable on those first few frames) and is therefore going to dominate any of his multihit moves.

Player B on the other hand will try time and time again to punish the upB, because wtf? why would a move have invincibility if it wasn't a ledge option or a roll or something?!

 

[Kitamerby]

Luigi mains learned that jab-dsmash is a true combo on many characters by consulting frame data, and that even an up B is possible on many characters.

 

[Llumys]

Knowledge.

Mmkay.

 

[shadyf0o]

@shady- your point about not thinking about the math behind you playing is sort of you just not understanding what the frame data is for.

Let's say player A knows Marth's upB has invincibility frames on start up, and player B does not.

Player A is better prepared, without even memorizing the frame data, from just knowing that marth's upB is going to tear **** up (without being punishable on those first few frames) and is therefore going to dominate any of his multihit moves.

Player B on the other hand will try time and time again to punish the upB, because wtf? why would a move have invincibility if it wasn't a ledge option or a roll or something?!

After my previous post, this thread sparked my interest in frame data, so I browsed the frame data sticky and have indeed found it to be useful.

For example, as a Falcon main I have an incredibly difficult time with Metaknight (obviously). My bread and butter combo starter (jabs) seems to be completely interupted by metaknights down smash at almost any point durring my jab attacks. However, upon consulting the frame data I've learned that the hitbox for Metaknights down smash comes out of the 5th frame. Falcon's jab hit box comes out on the third. Also I've learned that If you pause the jabs, as I usually do at various times to lock opponents into my jabs, I will ALWAYS be punished for it because the pauses take up almost an entire second. Once I initiate a jab on Metaknight I cannot pause. Even if I don't, it is still possible to be punished, so now I know I must be ready to shield or jump regardless.

 

[lmntolp]

It's also good to know your fastest-ending aerial for optimal momentum cancelling, which does get used a lot.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah, it's good to know the IASA if you need to jump or anything to make your trajectory go towards the corner, but when sent vertically it really shouldn't matter much.

 

[Zankoku]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213807
Old thread I made. Have fun with it.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

hmm so If I understood this correctly to understand brawl I need to:

A)Find it completely useless
B)Don't understand it
C)Don't bother to understand it

intresting

 

[Ol-Jeb]

Huh, I had always considered frame counting to be a bit over the top but this information actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks guys ^_^

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

UNDERSTANDING BRAWL


So the Question is, how does frame data improve my knowledge of brawl, and will it make me a better player?

Simply.... It won't.




Just sayin, I've been doin as well as i'm doin... And i don't know **** from frames.

It's just not relevent if you just KNOW what your character can and cannot punish through experience.

Not gona say much more here so don't ask, unless you PM.

 

[lain]

You can pretty much figure out what's the fastest and everything just through playing the game a whole bunch.

It's why ZSS spams jab when people are close to her and why Snake enjoy Utilting. People just figure it out.

 

[HeroMystic]

"The Sword doesn't make the man."

Frame data won't make you better, but it does make you more knowledgeable. However, knowledge doesn't beat experience.

RedHalberd's Theorycraft topic addresses this thread quite well.

 

[OverLade]

Simply.... It won't.




Just sayin, I've been doin as well as i'm doin... And i don't know **** from frames.

It's just not relevent if you just KNOW what your character can and cannot punish through experience.

Not gona say much more here so don't ask, unless you PM.

This.

This thread is theory craft at its finest (and when I say finest I mean, the bad kind).

Only a VERY small percentage of top players know this kind of stuff or even care (NEO, DMG). The extent to which knowing frame data will help you is very small because being frame perfect all the time comes down to practice and experience. Knowing how soon you can do something won't change how fast your fingers will do it without just playing the game, and by just playing the game, you'll learn when you can do something, even if you don't know how many frames it comes out in.

edit:
****it Hero you beat me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Being frame perfect is very easy in this game in most situations due to buffering, so knowing frame data is VERY useful.

Tells you what wins boxing wars, how punishable moves are, and can help you decide what attacks you can react to.

Another example, a lot of characters can aerial to Jab Olimar's shield and beat Olimar before he shieldgrabs. Knowing exact frame advantages on your character allows you to figure out what actually works for approaching.

 

[OverLade]

Being frame perfect is very easy in this game in most situations due to buffering, so knowing frame data is VERY useful.

Tells you what wins boxing wars, how punishable moves are, and can help you decide what attacks you can react to.

Another example, a lot of characters can aerial to Jab Olimar's shield and beat Olimar before he shieldgrabs. Knowing exact frame advantages on your character allows you to figure out what actually works for approaching.

These are things you learn by playing the game however.

People who know how to fight Olimar didn't learn anything about frame data, they may have heard from word of mouth that "if you use this aerial you will have enough time to Dtilt before his grab comes out". How many frames you have isn't important to those people.

People usually aren't going to react at the exact same time, which is why boxing war data isn't important either. Frame data is given" absolute perfection".

I'll give an example of why it still doesnt matter even IF people have the same time frame to react in.

In an actual match Snake's Ftilt clashes with Marth's Fsmash. Both characters go into a recoil advantage. Both characters buffer their fastest ground move. Snake wins, Ftilt beats Dtilt (I'm guessing, I dont care really).

If the scenario happens again, it wont matter if Snake's ground move is faster. This time Marth won't use Dtilt, he'll be aware that Snake is faster. He might use Dolphin slash, because it has super armor frames and will beat Snakes Ftilt. Or he will sidestep, assuming 2 ftilt hits will come out, or he will shield, or he will roll away. But this game is about mix ups. Snake might predict that Marth is going to shield and dashgrab him. Or predict a dolphin slash and shield himself.

Anyway, it's this kind of experience scenario where people would learn what beats what and what "not to try". This is why knowing how many frames you lose or win by isn't important. You figure out what beats what by playing.

[/thread]

 

[A2ZOMG]

I guess then all frame data does is make things more obvious and easier to learn quickly. =/

 

[HeroMystic]

The thing about frame data is while frame advantages are true, it's true on paper. An actual match-up played will usually not have these same type of advantages applied every time unless it's some true combo.

Frame data isn't bad. Reliance on frame data is bad. I'd say the perfect example of this is character dittos, where mix-ups and playstyles become extremely important.

 

[OverLade]

I guess then all frame data does is make things more obvious and easier to learn quickly. =/

That's why I watch videos to learn matchups, not read the boards.

Knowing that you have the fastest jab in the game will stop mattering once your opponent also understands it, because that means they will try something else, and it will turn into a mixup game.

However, there are exceptions to this rule. Look at Metaknight. There are some apsects of Metaknights game that you don't risk much if you do them properly. That's why you can spam tornado, and even if your opponent predicts it over and over, the most some characters can reasonable do is shield or run away. This is why mindless gameplay as MK can still work, and when it isn't mindless, it's even more ****. Snake isn't as easy to use as MK because while he gets more reward than normal characters from mixups, his game is still mix ups, and many characters can still punish a whiffed Ftilt (This goes for most of his high reward moves). Snake can make these moves safer using grenades, but is still likely to trade hits. Meta knight in a similar situation could miss his opponent and get away with no damage.

Knowing how many frames of lag MK has after move X doesn't matter if move X is properly spaced and cancelled because it'll still be **** hard to punish, and MK can guess from a pool of options and 4/5 times he wont get hit if you arent fast enough.

 

[OverLade]

Another example (This is completely incorrect, but it's just showing the point about frame data and why often times it doesn't matter).

Lets say that if Mario grabs MK, and he ground releases, Marios Dtilt comes out faster than MK's dtilt (we all know this not to be true).

"Looks guys, we have new useful data in the MK matchup, Mario can grab release MK and his Dtilt will beat out MK's fastest ground move".

The only problem here is that MK's shield comes out in 2 frames, where Mario's Dtilt comes out in 5 (this obviously isn't true, but for the purposes of this example it is). This means MK has enough time to roll away, instead of trying a ground attack that's not fast enough. Now if Mario could run fast enough to tech chase MK's roll, this might be a valid setup to force MK into a defensive option. But lets say that even if Mario buffered a dash out of the grab release, (predicting MK's roll), MK still has 10 frames to act before even a perfectly spaced dashgrab or dash attack could connect. Now MK has a frame window big enough to do whatever he wants. He can roll backwards again, he can dtilt, shuttle loop, sidestep.

Now this example is baloney, but oftentimes, this kind of problem applies with fighting against MK (anyone who isn't playing a high tier character probably encounters this kind of data frequently). Metaknight has 4 attack options that are fast enough and 4 defense options. This makes predicting a MK who mixes it up extremely unlikely, and most often, too dangerous. If the risk is greater than the reward then it's not worth trying. Best case scenario, the MK player doesn't react quickly enough in the 10 frames. In the worst case, you get hit by Shuttle loop or neutral air. In the most likely scenario, MK simply rolls away or sidesteps, and you will still probably get punished.

This speed and ability to be unpredictable without really trying (due to massive options) is what makes MK so good.

 

[Veril]

There is little reason to know the frame data in a game where nearly all the advantage windows on hit/block are negative. In melee/B+ its a different story. I mean, not even taking into account the fact that only a tiny handful of people actually know how to interpret and apply frame data, its not natural for most people to conceptualize a move numerically. This does not detract from how useful frame data is for the few people who actually get it.

There are often misconceptions that can be cleared up using frame data and testing, I'm fairly well known in the B+ community for being the best at this... of anyone... ever. Frame data is awesome. Just not useful enough to justify spending your time memorizing it in vBrawl. Take something like Marth's SHFF fair in B+, I showed how it could shield effectively shield combo if perfectly landed. Could you find that out by playing for a long time? Yes, but I found it for a character I don't use by analyzing ALR, shieldstun, shld, and pushback. I even mapped out exactly how to frame perfect SHFF fair. Took maybe a half an hour... during which I was also dealing with angry Marth players >.< Efficiency.

tl;dr don't bother to learn frame data for vBrawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There is little reason to know the frame data in a game where nearly all the advantage windows on hit/block are negative.

It's still extremely useful to know the few frame advantages that actually are good, and this tells you what mixup options you have regardless, and it also tells you what options you have to punish out of shield when in range.

I mean, not even taking into account the fact that only a tiny handful of people actually know how to interpret and apply frame data, its not natural for most people to conceptualize a move numerically. This does not detract from how useful frame data is for the few people who actually get it.

Although I don't have time to main every character in this game, I have pretty precise knowledge of the hitbox sizes of almost all moves in this game, and I'm pretty good at visualizing and estimating frames for moves and compensating for that in terms of relative range, so I'm a person who finds this kind of knowledge useful and reassuring when I need to know punish options. It also gives me a precise idea of what moves I should and shouldn't be aiming to powershield deliberately, defines what screwing up is, and generally speaking it helps to some extent explain to me why moves hit and why strategies work. Learning why things work is critical to success in this game, and having good knowledge of frame data I'm really convinced helps that.

tl;dr don't bother to learn frame data for vBrawl.

I beg to differ, frame data for any action based game is extremely interesting and helps solidify strategies and quickly discover new ones.

 

[Dantarion]

however it takes 7 frames to lift off of the ground.
.

Wrong. Its charcter specific. Heavy characters have more frames, and some have less than 7. I believe Snake has 9 frames of jump startup, thats why his dacus is easy.

 

[Zankoku]

Snake's jump startup has nothing to do with his DACUS.

 

[RATED]

The thing about frame data is while frame advantages are true, it's true on paper. An actual match-up played will usually not have these same type of advantages applied every time unless it's some true combo.

Frame data isn't bad. Reliance on frame data is bad. I'd say the perfect example of this is character dittos, where mix-ups and playstyles become extremely important.

srsly he won the discussion.