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Unblockable Jab follow-ups & Frame Data [COMPLETE!]

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
Pretty much everything and more than you'd ever want to know about what you can follow up with off of Luigi's Jab 1 (the 1st hit out of the 3 in the sequence) when it connects on a grounded opponent. If you hit them while they are in the air they'll take a little longer to land and you would be able to do more off of it before they can block than what's listed here.


Jab 2 sucks for follow ups
You should pretty much never try to follow up something off of the Jab 2. His 2nd punch in the sequence has more lag, less shieldstun and damage, comes out slower, and they also land much faster compared to the Jab 1. Better yet, don't ever use the Jab 2 at all unless you plan on completing the sequence with the 3rd jab hit (butt attack) immediately afterwards.

If you want to jab again after the Jab 1, crouch and then Jab 1 again (jab canceling). You can buffer the crouch by tapping down during the jab, and then time the next jab right as the crouch begins. Jab 1 to Jab 1 will work on every character if you do it right, though some (fastfallers) have very tight timing or they'll have time to block.


They can't DI the jab to be able to block sooner
In Brawl, you can't directional DI (to change the angle of the knockback) weak hits like Luigi's jab that don't put you into a tumble, and can only Smash DI (SDI) and Automatic Smash DI (ASDI) them (you also can't airdodge/use an A attack early before the hitstun would normally end either like you can on stronger hits). The stun is short enough though that they may be able to double jump away and possibly avoid it just before touching the ground if they react quickly and do it right.

Though the jab does stale damage-wise, it never has any effect on knockback and when they land from the hit so it will never change the followups you can do off of it. The Jab 1 also has no knockback growth and will always have the same knockback power regardless of their damage, though you probably were already aware of that.


What part you hit with is important!
The Jab 1 actually has 3 different knockbacks depending on where you connect with it. While they all have the same launching power, they send at different angles which causes them to land on the ground at different times, and with it affects what you have time to do before they are able to block/act. Keep in mind that you lean forward a good amount when doing the Jab 1.


Normal Hit (aka 'Hit 1')


This is the hit you generally want to connect with. You get this when you hit with Luigi's front arm/fist. If you connect with this one in addition to any of the others, this hitbox has priority and will be the hit you get. This sends directly upwards at 90 degrees. Since all the knockback goes towards vertical they go higher/land later than the other hits, giving you the most time to follow up before they are able to shield.

If you want to get this hit on a skinny character but use a follow up that requires you to be very close to connect (jab->up-B for example) you can do a sliding jab by using the momentum from a walk or whatever. You'll hit with the outer part but be up close by the time the jab finishes.

Chest Hit (aka 'Hit 2')


This is the hitbox on Luigi's chest area. You usually get this on thin, tall, and/or more humanoid characters when up close, where the front arm ends up going through and past them and missing due to the forward lean on the jab animation, but the chest hitbox connects. This one has some horizontal send to it compared to the normal hit. It's a 65 degree angle, so it's still mostly upwards but some of the vertical knockback is lost in exchange for the horizontal causing them to land a little sooner.

Rear Arm Hit (aka 'Hit 3')


Luigi's jab can actually hit on his backside on his other arm. This sends even more horizontally than the chest hit (50 degree angle) causing them to land even sooner. For this to connect they pretty much need to be almost directly ontop of you/behind you and also be out of range of the other hits. For this reason it doesn't happen often (which is a good thing).

Rear Arm Hit (aka 'Hit 3') [Reverse]


Same thing as above so they land at the same times only it sends in the other direction instead. If you somehow manage to hit with it and also happen to be fighting someone that can be u-tilted off of this hit (5 or higher under 'Hit 3 Advantage') I guess it could be useful... =P



The Chart
For text version of chart click HERE

Stun: The number of frames after hitlag where the character is completely unable to act. If they would land during this time the stun continues and completes before going into the landing animation. For simplicity purposes I include this in the airtime since it functions the same as far as Luigi is concerned. Fox is a good example of this. While he reaches the ground faster than any other character, he always has a minimum of 13 frames before going into the landing animation since it stuns him for 13. Several others fall slower but are only stunned for 12 and are thus able to block sooner than him.

Air Time: The number of frames between when they are launched from the jab and when they go into their landing animation.

The grayed out numbers in parentheses are the air times when they ASDI the jab upwards (holding up as hitlag ends). If you're sure they're going to be holding up when you jab them either to DI or to do a move then you can use them, but otherwise they aren't very useful and shouldn't be relied on.

Land Lag: When they land after getting hit by the jab they go into their high-speed/hard landing animation. This is either 4, 5, or 6 frames. If they get out of stun before landing and airdodge or autocancel an aerial (they can't buffer this out of the stun so it's difficult to time let alone react quickly enough to do) they go into a low-speed/soft landing which is about 2 or maybe 3 frames. Also, if they manage to be in the air for a very long enough time before landing they go into their soft landing instead (Jigglypuff does this when ASDIing 'Hit 1' upwards).

Advantage: The number of frames between when Luigi can act after the jab and the opponent can after landing. I use the term loosely here because technically not everyone is completely stunned until land lag begins and are unable to act at all (particularly the floatier characters). In these cases it's not a true combo and they can sometimes jump out, but unless they were expecting to be hit by a jab ahead of time they would be reacting to being hit around the time they are already beginning to land and would then be unable to act anyway until after the landing finishes.

The advantage numbers and colors here can be used with the list of follow up moves Luigi can do that is shown below the chart. You will be able to do the follow ups for the advantage number listed in addition to any followups below it with a lower number on the list. For example, if listed with an Advantage of 6, you will be able to do everything listed next to "6+", "5+", "3+", and "-6+" without them being able to block. If listed with a 7, you would be able to do all of those, but also those listed next to "7+".

Luigi's Jab 1 has 13 frames of lag if it hits on frame 2, and 12 if it connects on frame 3. Since it almost always hits on 2 that is what is used here.

Air Time + Land Lag - 13 = 'Advantage'

Again, the grayed out numbers in parentheses are when they ASDI the jab upwards. If you're sure they're going to be holding up when you jab them either to DI or to do a move then you can use them, but otherwise they aren't very useful and shouldn't be relied on.

Note: These are things to be aware of when jabbing them such as when you don't get 'Hit 1' with certain positioning. Zelda/Peach for example often result in connecting with the less favorable knockbacks of the jab when you're up close.




Advantage (Unblockable Jab 1 follow-ups when timed properly):
10+ .Turn-Around U-Smash; U-Air
.8+ .N-Air
.7+ .Down-B
.6+ .Up-B; Turn-Around U-Tilt; (Grab)
.5+ .D-Smash; D-Tilt; F-Tilt
.3+ .Jab-Cancel -> Jab 1
-6+ .Jab 2

Turn adds 1 frame, Jump adds 5 frames, and Jab-Cancel (crouch) adds 1 frame.

Notes:
Note 1 - You will often get 'Hit 2 when very close to the opponent.
Note 2b - You will often get 'Hit 2'' when close or very close to the opponent AND they are also facing the other way.
Note 2 - You will often get 'Hit 2' when close or very close to the opponent.
Note 3 - You will often get 'Hit 3' when very close, and 'Hit 2' when close to the opponent.
Note A - Jigglypuff has enough time to complete the 'Got Hit' animation and goes into a normal fall before landing when Hit 1 of the jab is ASDI'd upwards, and her low-speed impact landing lag is 2 frames. Hits 2 & 3 work normally when ASDI'd up. Other characters can do this too if they SDI the jab upwards in addition to ASDIing Up.
Note B - Kirby's and Jigglypuff's landing animations have them squish down and will duck under some things. All 4 frames of their landing they are low like this, so if an attack would normally hit during this time and doesn't reach low enough it will miss.

For example, you can't really Jab->Up-B Kirby on flat ground despite having enough time to get it out before he's able to block since he 'ducks' underneath the sweetspot and you'll always get the coin hit on him instead. However, if you can connect with it before they even land it will work, which you can still do on Jigglypuff for the most part. You can Jab->Up-B these two when the advantage listed is 10 or higher. Jiggs has this normally on Hits 1 & 2 (11 and 10 respectively), but for Kirby they need to be holding up when they get jabbed and ASDI it upwards.
If none of the 1, 2, or 3 notes are listed, you will almost always get 'Hit 1' from the front unless you are sliding overtop/through each other when the jab hits, or they are close and do something that makes them lean forward and into you.



Beware of crouching opponents!
Something to keep in mind is that if you hit someone who is in a full crouching position, the hitlag they receive is halved. This will cause them to be launched 2-3 frames sooner than normal while you yourself are still stopped during the freeze frames from the attack hitting. By the time your jab animation ends, they will be 2-3 frames further along towards landing on the ground than normal and so the numbers listed in the chart will also be 2-3 lower.

For example, if someone is listed with a 7 on a certain jab hitbox you would normally be able to jab up-b them off it (hits on 6), but if they 'crouch cancel' it they would be able to block it and could only be hit with things that hit on 4/5 depending on how stale the jab is (in this case the more stale it is the better for you).



The List
For text version of list click HERE

Character Color Codes:
Purple.Works using Hitbox 1, Hitbox 2, and Hitbox 3
Blue ..Works using Hitbox 1 and Hitbox 2
Green .Works using Hitbox 1
Orange.Requires them to A/SDI upwards to be able to work
Red ...Does not work at all


Hitbox Color Codes:
Green .Can't be blocked
Orange.Requires them to A/SDI upwards to be unblockable
Red ...Always blockable

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


















Animations of Luigi's Jab used on each character
('Weak' knockback animation + Hard-Landing)

*Click to view*



 

-Mars-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
6,515
Location
UTAH
One of the most informative posts this board has ever seen. So your saying that technically jab>up b should never work on Sheik, Fox, Wolf as long as they DI somewhere..........am I understanding this right?
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
If they DI anywhere or not at all. On flat ground it would only work on the last group of characters if they don't press shield in time or if they happen to tap upwards when they get hit and Smash DI the jab up.
 

-Mars-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
6,515
Location
UTAH
Ok I get it now, thank you I had no idea I could always powershield the jab combo, I got ***** by a Luigi the other day.
 

TheMann

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
824
Location
Michigan
Very good thread. I was going to make a thread similar over the summer but I was too lazy lol.
Mine wouldn't been as good as yours though so good job.
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
Massive update and remade the thread. It now includes all follow-ups from the jab instead of just Up-B, and I added frame data for the jab being used on every character.



(Text Versions)


The Chart

|-----------|----|--------------------|----|--------------------|-------|
|Character .|Stun| ......Airtime .....|Land| .....Advantage ....| Notes |
| ..........| ...|Hit 1 .Hit 2 .Hit 3 |Lag |Hit 1 .Hit 2 .Hit 3 | ......|
|-----------|----|--------------------|----|--------------------|-------|
|Bowser ....| 11 |11(14) 11(13) 11(12)| 6 .| 4(7) ..4(6) ..4(5) | ......|
|CF ........| 12 |12(14) 12(13) 12(12)| 4 .| 3(5) ..3(4) ..3(3) | ......|
|Charizard .| 12 |13(16) 12(15) 12(14)| 5 .| 5(8) ..4(7) ..4(6) | ......|
|Diddy Kong | 12 |13(15) 12(15) 12(14)| 4 .| 4(6) ..3(6) ..3(5) | 2 ....|
|Donkey Kong| 11 |13(16) 12(15) 11(14)| 5 .| 5(8) ..4(7) ..3(6) | ......|
|Falco .....| 12 |12(14) 12(13) 12(12)| 4 .| 3(5) ..3(4) ..3(3) | 1 ....|
|Fox .......| 13 |13(13) 13(13) 13(13)| 4 .| 4(4) ..4(4) ..4(4) | 2 ....|
|G&W .......| 13 |15(18) 14(17) 13(16)| 4 .| 6(9) ..5(8) ..4(7) | ......|
|Ganondorf .| 12 |12(14) 12(13) 12(12)| 5 .| 4(6) ..4(5) ..4(4) | ......|
|ICs .......| 12 |14(17) 14(17) 12(15)| 4 .| 5(8) ..5(8) ..3(6) | 1 ....|
|Ike .......| 12 |13(16) 12(15) 12(14)| 4 .| 4(7) ..3(6) ..3(5) | 1 ....|
|Ivysaur ...| 12 |15(18) 14(17) 13(16)| 4 .| 6(9) ..5(8) ..4(7) | ......|
|Jigglypuff | 13 |20(23) 19(22) 17(20)|4(2)|11(12) 10(13) .8(11)| A ....|
|King Dedede| 12 |13(16) 12(15) 12(14)| 6 .| 6(9) ..5(8) ..5(7) | ......|
|Kirby .....| 13 |17(20) 16(19) 15(18)| 4 .| 8(11) .7(10) .6(9) | ......|
|Link ......| 12 |13(15) 12(14) 12(14)| 5 .| 5(7) ..4(6) ..4(6) | 1 ....|
|Lucario ...| 12 |16(19) 15(18) 14(17)| 4 .| 7(10) .6(9) ..5(8) | 2b ...|
|Lucas .....| 12 |13(16) 12(15) 12(14)| 5 .| 5(8) ..4(7) ..4(6) | 1 ....|
|Luigi .....| 12 |16(19) 15(18) 13(17)| 4 .| 7(10) .6(9) ..4(8) | 1 ....|
|Mario .....| 12 |14(17) 14(16) 12(15)| 4 .| 5(8) ..5(7) ..3(6) | 1 ....|
|Marth .....| 12 |16(19) 15(18) 13(17)| 4 .| 7(10) .6(9) ..4(8) | 1 ....|
|Meta Knight| 13 |13(16) 13(15) 13(14)| 4 .| 4(7) ..4(6) ..4(5) | ......|
|Ness ......| 12 |15(18) 14(17) 13(16)| 4 .| 6(9) ..5(8) ..4(7) | 2 ....|
|Olimar ....| 12 |17(20) 16(19) 15(18)| 4 .| 8(11) .7(10) .6(9) | 2 ....|
|Peach .....| 12 |17(20) 16(19) 14(17)| 4 .| 8(11) .7(10) .5(8) | 3 ....|
|Pikachu ...| 13 |14(16) 13(16) 13(15)| 4 .| 5(7) ..4(7) ..4(6) | ......|
|Pit .......| 12 |15(17) 14(17) 12(15)| 5 .| 7(9) ..6(9) ..4(7) | 1 ....|
|R.O.B. ....| 12 |16(18) 15(18) 13(16)| 4 .| 7(9) ..6(9) ..4(7) | ......|
|Samus .....| 12 |17(19) 16(19) 14(17)| 4 .| 8(10) .7(10) .5(8) | 1 ....|
|Sheik .....| 12 |12(12) 12(12) 12(12)| 4 .| 3(3) ..3(3) ..3(3) | 1 ....|
|Snake .....| 11 |13(16) 12(15) 11(14)| 5 .| 5(8) ..4(7) ..3(6) | ......|
|Sonic .....| 12 |13(16) 13(15) 12(14)| 4 .| 4(7) ..4(6) ..3(5) | 2 ....|
|Squirtle ..| 13 |13(15) 13(14) 13(13)| 4 .| 4(6) ..4(5) ..4(4) | ......|
|Toon Link .| 12 |15(18) 14(17) 13(16)| 4 .| 6(9) ..5(8) ..4(7) | 2 ....|
|Wario .....| 12 |13(16) 12(15) 12(14)| 4 .| 4(7) ..3(6) ..3(5) | ......|
|Wolf ......| 12 |12(12) 12(12) 12(12)| 4 .| 3(3) ..3(3) ..3(3) | 2 ....|
|Yoshi .....| 12 |14(17) 13(16) 12(15)| 4 .| 5(8) ..4(7) ..3(6) | ......|
|Zelda .....| 12 |16(19) 15(18) 14(17)| 4 .| 7(10) .6(9) ..5(8) | 3 ....|
|ZSS .......| 13 |14(16) 13(15) 13(14)| 4 .| 5(7) ..4(6) ..4(5) | 2 ....|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------





The List

--------------------------------------------------
Turn-Around U-Smash; U-Air [10+]
-------------------
.Lucario ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2b**
.Luigi ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Marth ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Olimar ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Peach ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**
.Samus ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Zelda ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**

-------------------
.Jigglypuff .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
(Whiffs due to the landing animation)
.Kirby ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
(Whiffs due to the landing animation)
.[All Others] .[Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
N-Air [8+]
-------------------
.Olimar ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Peach ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**
.Samus ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**

-------------------
.Charizard ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Donkey Kong . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.G&W ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.ICs ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Ivysaur ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Jigglypuff .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
(Whiffs if they don't A/SDI up)
.King Dedede . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Lucario ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2b**
.Lucas ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Luigi ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Mario ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Marth ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Ness ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Pit ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.R.O.B. ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Snake ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Toon Link ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Yoshi ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Zelda ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**

-------------------
.Bowser ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.CF .......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Diddy Kong .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Falco ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Fox ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Ganondorf ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Ike ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Kirby ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
(Whiffs)
.Link ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Meta Knight . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Pikachu ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Sheik ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Sonic ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Squirtle .... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Wario ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Wolf ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.ZSS ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
Down-B [7+]
-------------------
.Olimar ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Peach ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**
.Samus ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**

-------------------
.Jigglypuff .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
(Whiffs on Hits 2 & 3 if they don't A/SDI up)
.Lucario ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2b**
.Luigi ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Marth ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Pit ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.R.O.B. ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Zelda ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**

-------------------
.Bowser ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Charizard ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Donkey Kong . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.G&W ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.ICs ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Ike ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Ivysaur ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.King Dedede . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Kirby ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
(Whiffs if they don't A/SDI up)
.Link ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Lucas ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Mario ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Meta Knight . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Ness ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Pikachu ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Snake ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Sonic ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Toon Link ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Wario ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Yoshi ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.ZSS ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**

-------------------
.CF .......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Diddy Kong .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Falco ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Fox ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Ganondorf ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Sheik ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Squirtle .... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Wolf ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
Up-B; Turn-Around U-Tilt; (Grab) [6+]
-------------------
.Olimar ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
-------------------
.Jigglypuff .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
(Whiffs on Hit 3 if they don't A/SDI up)
.Lucario ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2b**
.Luigi ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Marth ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Peach ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**
.Pit ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.R.O.B. ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Samus ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Zelda ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**

-------------------
.G&W ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Ivysaur ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.King Dedede . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Ness ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Toon Link ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**

-------------------
.Bowser ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Charizard ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Diddy Kong .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Donkey Kong . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Ganondorf ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.ICs ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Ike ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Kirby ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
(Whiffs if they don't A/SDI up)
.Link ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Lucas ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Mario ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Meta Knight . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Pikachu ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Snake ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Sonic ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Squirtle .... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Wario ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Yoshi ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.ZSS ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**

-------------------
.CF .......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Falco ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Fox ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Sheik ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Wolf ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
D-Smash; D-Tilt; F-Tilt [5+]
-------------------
.Jigglypuff .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.King Dedede . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Kirby ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Lucario ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2b**
.Olimar ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Peach ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**
.Samus ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Zelda ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 3**

-------------------
.G&W ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.ICs ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Ivysaur ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Luigi ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Mario ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Marth ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Ness ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Pit ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.R.O.B. ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Toon Link ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**

-------------------
.Charizard ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Donkey Kong . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Link ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Lucas ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Pikachu ..... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Snake ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Yoshi ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.ZSS ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**

-------------------
.Bowser ...... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.CF .......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Diddy Kong .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Falco ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Ganondorf ... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Ike ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Meta Knight . [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Sonic ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Squirtle .... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
.Wario ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]

-------------------
.Fox ......... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**
.Sheik ....... [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 1**
.Wolf ........ [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
**Note 2**

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
Jab-Cancel -> Jab 1 [3+]
-------------------
.[Everyone] .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
Jab 2 [-6+]
-------------------
.[Everyone] .. [Hit 1][Hit 2][Hit 3]
--------------------------------------------------






 

Locuan

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Incredible work right there.

Will look into this more deeply later on but I'm already starting to see some very interesting things.
 

Agora

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Really puts things in perspective. If you don't want to learn all that, at least you can see which follow-ups are the safest.

Great work, Magus.
 

Delvro

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This is amazing... more of us Luigi players need to be doing things like this.

I have a question... Marth can get invulnerability on frame 1 by using his up-B... I think (it always gives me problems), is that included in the data? Wolf too.. but I have no idea whether his invulnerability frames come out on frame 1 or not.

Also, would anything change if characters with frame 1 jabs (squirtle and one other character) tried to attack after a Luigi jab instead of shielding?
 

Magus420

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Marth's Up-B and similar moves are not included in the lists part as they pertain to what can/can't be blocked. If I were to include every possible method of escape there wouldn't be much to list, as technically most characters can jump right around the time the jab ends and just before they land so they could probably avoid most of the follow-ups by jumping away depending on its range, their jump, and their size.

You can, however, figure those kind of things out on your own by comparing the Stun Time to the Air Time in the chart (most stun times are missing, but I do have Bowser, Mario, and Jiggs who are at the extremes of the weight spectrum). For example Bowser is unable to jump out/act on Neutral while Mario has 2 frames to act before landing. If they don't act in the time between when stun ends and when they touch ground they will be locked into the landing animation and unable to do anything until it completes.

Reaction and anticipation of the jab hitting plays a big part in whether they'll be able to avoid it with a jump or whatever. If they were not expecting to be hit they'll often react after the point where it's too late to get far enough away with a jump or have already landed and will be unable to act. If they are expecting to be hit and they anticipate a jab setup from you they'll probably be able to get out of it where possible if they know how to. Things like Marth's Up-B are a little easier to do it with since you don't need to completely get out of range to avoid it which can take a few frames with a jump, and it may not even be possible with a jump depending on the range of the followup you're doing.

As for 1 frame jabs they are ground moves, and if they are able to use them they would also be able to shield as well. They would only be a factor for grabbing after the jab. I imagine Squirtle/ZSS's ground dodges have invincibility on frame 2. You would still get the grab on frame 1 and miss the grab on frame 2 in both cases however. The only difference between dodging against your grab and jabbing you out of it would be you also take some damage from it in the jab's case on frame 1 as the grab connects.
 

elheber

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Magus I love you. This got bookmarked.

Question: Jab Cancel to Jab... will it always give an opponent more airtime? If so, will Jab Cancel to Jab give you more time to follow up than just a single Jab1, or does it just give them more time to Airdodge?
 

Magus420

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You can only cause them to have more air time than normal with the jab cancel to jab if they have 16+ air time to begin with, otherwise the next jab is hitting them during land lag while on the ground again anyway. The characters with that much time in the air generally already have solid follow-ups though off a single jab for killing (Up-B/N-Air), general damage (D-Smash), and combo/string/positioning setups (Turn Around U-Tilt/D-Smash/N-Air/D-Tilt).

Now that I think about it though you could use this to make [Jab->Up-B] possible on Kirby, since he has good air time but his crouching landing animation is what prevents you from hitting him with it. Doing 2 extra jab 1s using Hitbox 1 (he's fat so you don't really hit with the other hitboxes from the front often) before doing the jab->up-b should get him high enough so that the up-b can connect before he lands.

Same with Jigglypuff you could add a jab before the [Jab->U-Air] or [Jab->Turn Around U-Smash] to make them possible. I've never really played against Jiggs to know whether the u-air would be a more useful setup at low damage than just u-tilting though.
 

elheber

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So if I go by the chart, you can only make Jiggs, Kirby, Olimar, Peach, and Samus "float" reliably at 17+ frames airtime with hitbox1 (though, as you said Peach is difficult to hit1 to). But since it's the hitstun that really matters, you really don't get more time to do anything by Jab Cancel Jabbing... and on someone like Samus, who's nAir comes out lightning quick, it might also be a bad idea to make them float. Yet it's necessary for Jiggs and Kirby if you want to follow up with FJP or some other high hitbox attack (which they're actually pretty prone to).

Also, the Grab comes out on frame 6... just like the SJP I believe. This means that Olimar doesn't even get time to shield before getting grabbed. Who, then, has time to perform their quickest attack to avoid getting grabbed?

Of the people on whom Luigi only has a 3 frame advantage on hit1 (Cpt Falcon, Falco, Sheik, and Wolf), only Sheik can avoid the grab via Jab (hibox on frame 2 + 3 advantage = 5... just 1 frame short of the grab). So even if timed and hit perfectly, Sheik is the only person than can escape a Jab Grab. Of the people on whom Luigi only has a 3 frame advantage on hit3 but not listed above (Diddy, DK, ICs, Ike, Mario, Snake, Sonic, Wario, and Yoshi), only Mario can avoid the grab via Jab.

This is important because, since the Grab and the FJP come out at the same time and they have about the same range (at about hibox2 or 3) it means they can ALWAYS avoid the Jab Grab/FJP mindgame by simply Jabbing. And a Sheik that learns to Jab after getting Jabbed by Luigi, will never be Jab Grabbed or Jab FJP'd.

I don't know how reliable my conclusion on this is; something feels off. I used firemario149's Brawl Character Frame Data for the quickest attack info.
 

Magus420

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You don't need to jab cancel to hit Jiggs with jab->up-b. Both Hits 1 and 2 allow you to connect the up-b just before she touches the ground. You would need to for Kirby though yeah, unless they ASDI the jab up or possibly if they try to jump just before landing.

Jab cancel jabbing floaties can sometimes allow you to follow up with more things as a result of them gaining height, but it really depends on what they try to do between the end of the stun and if/when they land, as well as what you're trying to hit with. Overall though, there isn't much I can think of beyond those things on Kirby (up-b) and Jiggs (reverse u-smash, u/n-air) that could really even be worth it.

I do know though that jab cancel jabbing after hitting a jab is pretty useful for simply adding on some extra damage to your nomal follow ups (d-smash usually). I find it works best on some of the characters in the 5-7 area when close, since they don't land so quickly that timing the jab cancels is overly difficult, they can be d-smashed (has good range/damage), don't really gain height from full speed jab cancels (hits during land lag), the jab will catch them even during soft land lag if they airdodge, and will be low enough when stun ends to steal their jump if they try to jump out and it isn't too quick. You can basically trap them in with jabs and the best thing they can really do is SDI away 2+ times to escape. It's also harder to get out if you have time on the character to take a step or 2 into the d-smash to slide a little into it. Pit's a pretty good example. If you hit with the jab somewhat close you can just keep repeating jab 1s until you see their 1st SDI away and then end with a step d-smash.



As for jab->grab they can also ground dodge it, which with the exception of Olimar, Jigglypuff, and Bowser, all give invincibility on frame 2. Olimar & Jiggs both get grabbed before they would get a chance to anyway so they don't matter.

Also, I think grabbing after a jab might take 7 instead of 6 by needing to cancel the jab window with a shield or walk before you can grab or you'll just do jab 2 instead. You needed to do this before, but some things in Brawl seem to allow multiple actions to take place during the same frame, like up-b directly out of shield. It probably depends how the input priority is handled by the game. If shield or walk is read 1st then it may be 6 since it might read that (canceling the jab window), then afterwards read the grab/A input and you grab normally. I'll try to remember to check that next time I get a chance.

If you can grab directly out of the jab and have it connect on 6, then those that can avoid jab->grab with Hit 1 after landing would be:

Bowser ...(4) [Up-B (inv 1-5)]
CF .......(3) [Dodge]
Diddy ....(4) [Dodge]
Falco ....(3) [Dodge]
Fox ......(4) [Dodge]
Ganondorf (4) [Dodge]
Ike ......(4) [Dodge]
MK .......(4) [Dodge]
Sheik ....(3) [Dodge, Jab (2)]
Sonic ....(4) [Dodge]
Squirtle .(4) [Dodge, Jab (1)]
Wario ....(4) [Dodge]
Wolf .....(3) [Dodge, Down-B (inv 1-6)]


If you need a frame to cancel the jab window and have it connect on 7, then those that can avoid jab->grab with Hit 1 after landing would be:

Bowser ...(4) [Dodge, Up-B (inv 1-5)] *His dodge is crap and you can just grab a 2nd time in his lag anyway
CF .......(3) [Dodge, Jab (3), Roll-F/B (inv 4-19)]
Charizard (5) [Dodge]
Diddy ....(4) [Dodge]
DK .......(5) [Dodge]
Falco ....(3) [Dodge, Roll-F/B (inv 4-19)]
Fox ......(4) [Dodge, Jab (2)]
Ganondorf (4) [Dodge]
ICs ......(5) [Dodge]
Ike ......(4) [Dodge]
Link .....(5) [Dodge]
Lucas ....(5) [Dodge]
Mario ....(5) [Dodge]
MK .......(4) [Dodge]
Pikachu ..(5) [Dodge]
Sheik ....(3) [Dodge, Jab (2), Roll-F/B (inv 4-19)]
Snake ....(5) [Dodge]
Sonic ....(4) [Dodge]
Squirtle .(4) [Dodge, Jab (1)]
Wario ....(4) [Dodge]
Wolf .....(3) [Dodge, Down-B (inv 1-6), Roll-F/B (inv 4-19)]
Yoshi ....(5) [Dodge]
ZSS ......(5) [Dodge, Jab (1)]
 

elheber

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It's a pretty big list of people that can escape the Jab Grab with a Sidestep, not to mention on hitbox1. I'm a Jab Grab spammer, but I've never seen anyone avoid my Grab followup this way. Perhaps it's always in their head that I'll do an AAA combo.

An unrelated question that you might know the answer to, but that has been bugging me: Luigi's Backward Roll... does the invincibility begin on the first frame? In other words, if I'm Shielding Bowser's Firebreath and slam the analog backward, will Luigi roll away without damage 100% of the time? Memory tells me yes, but your old Luigi Frame Data thread has question marks as to when invincibility began.
 

Magus420

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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225510

It's invincible on 4 like almost everyone else. If you don't get hit in that example it's likely because your shield ate the bits of fire that were closest to you at the outside of your shield, and the bits after it don't reach you quickly enough during the startup to be able to hit you. You also lean back/move a little during the roll's startup, which puts some distance between where the bits were hitting the shield and where you can be hit once the shield is dropped.
 

elheber

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If you don't get hit in that example it's likely because your shield ate the bits of fire that were closest to you at the outside of your shield, and the bits after it don't reach you quickly enough during the startup to be able to hit you....
Makes perfect sense. Thank you. I'm done with questions/comments for now.

...other than -YOU ROCK-
\|,,|
 

SwastikaPyle

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Oh my god Magus you should be paid for these kinds of services.

Told you Wigi's jab was broken.

Is there a picture showing the redonkulous hitbox of it? (I routinely still get hurt by the jab even when I'm behind Wigi and only touching the back of his heel)
 

Nyus

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This was an amazing post man. My hats off to you guys who have done all this homework and brought it to our attention. Thanks!
 

TheMann

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Yea I really don't think people realize how helpful and informative this post is. Once again great job Magus.
 

hippiedude92

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ohey lookie here. bumped for everyone to remind them about how sexy luigi's jab1 is. This actually reminded me of Mario's jab1.

Now would Mario's jab1 applications apply to Luigi's jab1? Like Mario's jab1> dsmash are inescapeable? A2Zomg, told me that Mario's jab is same range as his dsmashs while Luigi's jab1 outranges his own dsmash which I find pretty surprising imo lol.
 

Magus420

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If by chance Mario's Jab 1 has the same base KB, 0 KB growth, same launch angles, and same duration (this is the only one I know off the top of my head that's definitely the same, lol) then yeah, if that's somehow the case then the followups would also be the same. Extremely unlikely though xD

The most important thing is if it has KB growth. You can check growth by seeing if the KB is any different at 999% than it is at 0%. If they're the same that's good since it keeps it simple and what you'd be able to do off it consistent regardless of how stale it is or what damage they're at.

You could try out comparing the barely Jab->D-Smashable peoples by Luigi with Mario (Charizard, DK, Link, Lucas, Pikachu, Snake, Yoshi, ZSS). Go into 1/2 speed in training if you want to be sure you're timing it perfectly. If it's blockable by them then try out the barely Jab->Up-B-ables (G&W, Ivysaur, DDD, Ness, Toon Link), etc.

You'd also want to check out if the different hitboxes of his jab act differently like Luigi's do. Luigi's all have the same KB power, but at different angles. You can check the angles by setting it to 2.0 ratio under options and having a light and floaty character grab a poison mushroom before getting jabbed.
 
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