Umby's Mix-Up Thread (Discussion: SDR to Bair/Star KOs)

[~TBS~]

read over everything again.

Using ASC offstage? eh...I think one of two things are going to happen. 1) they AD and you miss, forcing yourself to recover, or 2) you do end up hitting them (somehow) and can footstool off of them.

using HA is somewhat of a gamble. If used at the right time, it has ungratifying results. Offstage...it could spell out the end for you if you miss.

@Kinzer
HA wont stop you from getting back to the stage unless the opponent AD's or spotdodges before you use it...unless im not understanding the situation.

 

[B.A.M.]

u can reverse it as well after a kill kinzer, I didnt know that at all before infzy posted it a while back. if you press toward the stage then neutral B in quick sucession he will always aim towards the stage unless hes locking on, meaning it saves. HA is a great recovery option and like Speed stated it has to be done AD or Spot-dodged beforehand and not reversed to go a bad direction. when im too far to make back without my jumps HA becomes an option if you reverse it. It is ridiculously amazing on snakes as well for obvious reasons. Between foostooling snake, bairing his cypher to regain up-B and HA, we can just annihilate snake offstage Dreamland status. We take stock just like that, and with jab -canceling him on the edge or even simply springing his DJ we put snakes an even worse position.

On a sidenote ASC mindgames versus Metas offstage are funny. Ive done it on occasion to provoke a meta to use Shuttle Loop then i either jump back and punish the glide attack with fair ( which every sonic should do) or if they are already gliding as some metas do you its a free ASC if you follow it. Since we are talking about edgeguarding, I want to say that people should edgeguard Metaknights more, it helps alot in the matchup in my opinion. Due tenki's post on Metaknights transcendental priority as well a few other things versus meta made me realize that is damage we dont often go for because alot of ppl are scared to edgeguard a meta. Thing is if you are able to spring on reaction and have good spacing then theres no need to let that damage pass. side-B gets ***** by fair, shuttle loop get ***** by spring>dair and if the dair misses then you just found yourself a new edgeguard opportunity with punishing glide with fair, down- b can be interrupted in its intial frames by spring. they are above the stage you can dj out and upair ( spaced right goes thru dair, well at it seems to for me could be the whole 2 hits and meta's priority) delay the dj with Spin Dash jump cancel if needed. spacing bairs works against the majority of aerials as well. If they tornado up-tilted fsmash (ive also had HA work fairly well i still need to research when to rightly use it), if they nado far away offstage to approach/scare you like a moron then jump in it and watch them die.

Lastly, if a metaknight wiffs shuttle loops and hes at KO percentages, go for a bair. If they dont glide attack they die, if they do glide attack bair cancels it out and you can now follow the special fall state and do as u wish. If they are provoked to do it while you are edgeguarding and you anticipate it you can punish the same or edgehog ftw. Learn the spacing of shuttle loop low recoveries the ledge you punish those as well: time a sweet spot dair to hit the top, ledgegrab> invincible aerial. or time an edgehog then cancel the glide. Kinda random stuff but ive getting my metaknight/snake practice in and it just boggles my mind the little things that people dont do because people are stuck under this whole metaknight/snake omipotent clout. Sonic All Day.

 

[Umby]

Sorry for lack of updates. College johns. I'll get back on it soon.

 

[Umby]

Probably going to work more edgeguarding tactics in before I start on Act V, so feel free to say stuff.

 

[JayBee]

that's funny syo becuase i was just thinking about this this weekend. HA as a "movement option" brings out its true potential. in theory if you can lock on, you can survive offstage forever, remember this. In the event of edgegaurding HA can suprise opponents sent near the blast line, and I have tested this against friends: offstage bair/fair, then HA to push them back for the KO. its possible to get this and its seems to be best against heavies above and towards the edge. at the very least if the Homing attack misses you will rise in the air, and it will assist your recovery.

ASC edge gaurding shoudld also be explored, as it is mroe of an aerial fake than anything. Most often an ASC offstage against a recovering opponent will provoke a jumping aerial to counter you, but if you bait it by jumping out of it, you can make them miss, then counter with a falling fair, which can push them even further off stage, minus the jump. Actually, NO ONE really does this, so this, along with more HA usage offstage would potentially excel sonic's edge game more. Ive even got to the point of using HA where i would use fair>ASC, when I know I will not die from it, in order to give me the added vertial space, and make my recovery easier for me. and most of the cast can't punish it from that distance. sometimes i even get away with HAing twice to get back to the edge without even jumping.

 

[Umby]

I still need someone to try out HA vs Super Dedede Jump.

 

[Kinzer]

I'd rather just read their landing and USmash.

If they cancel it, well then just end the USmash early, Sonic still has enough speed to punish anything that isn't an ledgegrab.

That's assuming they did the Up-B very high. Of course if they do it low enough that an USmash won't even pop them up, then I suppose an edgehog or a tilt will do the trick.

HA is bad for your health, I wouldn't be surprised if it gave you Cancer.

 

[Umby]

Well in this case, it's not a matter of punishment as much is it could potentially

A) Refresh our moves.
B) Put Dedede in actually gimping position.

I've only HA'd CPU D3s so I don't know how viable HA is completely, but based on my observations, HA hitting a Super D3 Jump could make them more susceptible to Uair and/or Spring -> Uair KOs. In any case, we could probably keep HAing them to refresh our other moves.

The real variable factor is canceling D3 Jump. Though if we could force a situation where canceling would be bad for D3, that'd be a factor less worried about.

Like I said. Probably needs more testing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

spin dash jump and instant spin dash jump are moves that should definitely be added to the gimp section. for they allows you to attempt gimps farther offstage in a safe position than any other option we have

 

[JayBee]

Nearly every time now when i knock an opponent off stage far, i Spindash jump off to them for an edgegaurd/ gimp attempt. the worst thing you can do is just do nothing, and people underestimate how far sonic can leave the stage and not use his second jump, even some sonics. There are matchups where it is pivotal to keep them off the stage as early as possble, since even tho the character is better, youre recovery is way better than thiers (except probably metaknight, i wont, but that goes without saying )

my thought process during this, even if i feign attacks out there, which i do, is to let them know how unsafe they are from me, which i see as an opportunity for baiting and punishing, as well as other obscure gimp attempts (lol HA kills)

 

[BSP]

if D3 is at the peak of his jump, I'm pretty sure HA will knock him back ( and refresh our moves as well). I also agree that SDJ s should be used more, just cause of range, and it's impossible to tell what sonic will actually do, provided he has his double jump.

It's probably stressed enough, but it's really important to keep all of sonic's kill moves fresh. Except bair maybe, i dont think any KO move should be used unless the opponent is at really low damage and u have time to refresh the move, or unless the opponent is a kill percent. Saving them makes it so much easier to kill, and it gets the opponent to the next stock, then sonic can keep racking damage while the opponent tries to kill the fastest thing alive.

Also, spring traps can have surprising results once in a while

 

[JayBee]

I agrese with that mindset. BUT that means we need to improve our edge game and our ablity to not take needless damage. sometimes sonic's hyper agressive attitude can take precedence over common sence.

 

[da K.I.D.]

also, ive just made a stupidly obvious realization,

some characters are much more susceptible to the anthinus combo than others. Characters that either fall very fast, or have poor aerial mobility, eat anthinus comboes like nobodys business. Fox, Falco and DDD are the first character that come to my mind. they fall fast and have crap mobility, so its almost too easy to set the spring in the right place.

 

[B.A.M.]

very true kid regarding the anthinus combo, its definitely something that should always be remembered when the situation presents itself. Also Kojin, im glad you see the potential of HA as I do. It a great offstage movement option at the very least, as well as a wonderful gimp with little risk. Also it definitely has tons of mindgame properities. I HA'ed toward a marth offstage at a certain distance to provoke a response. they attempted to fair and i airdodged and springed utterly destroying his recovery. Too funny. Fair or Bair > HA works very well in my opinion. I also concur with ASC baiting Kojin, it really limits options for the opponent. And when u do that offstage, that often equals death. By the way this must always be pushed; please use HA to beat Nado, as long as u jump above it will be it virtually every single time. I was destroying campy metaknights with this along with dair in the center. Lastly KID i dont know if its just me, but falco's seem pretty suceptible to ASC uair>uair>spring uair. I dont know if I just mindgame it appropiately so they dont react fast enough, but there are times it seems that they are in hitstun. Has anyone did any decay data on these things? If so please point me in that direction.

As far as killing goes knowing how to land camp recoveries with spaced Fmash helps me a ton. As long as you react quickly enough, you can get them even if they airdodge ( the landing frames) or the moment u see the attack u will trade hits ( which is fine by me) or simply outspace them and win. Mindgames such as poorly spaced Fsmash> stutter-step x 2 Fsmash, DDP FF Bair while land camping, jab cancel to D-Smash, DashDance Fsmash, DDP Fsmash, SH Bairs help me with my kills. I love to land camp uthrows for the kill or kill with bair or fair near the blast zones. I usually dont have too bad of a problem killing with sonic because i continue to rack the damage untill i condition them into a KO move. Lagless sourspot Dair>spring uair is raw as well as ASC Bair. Also nailing certain recoveries with Fsmash at the edge ( it gets even more disjointed) is great. Umm crossup Bairs, Fmash and Dsmash kill. Also i tend to FF bairs slightly offcentered ontop of the opponent to screw their DI which usually gives me a Bair thatd make Boxob proud.

I believe that offstage kills help Sonic a ton (obviously) and having simple mindgames increase the chances of landing those kills due to sonics recovery options. iSDJ owns as well as ASC and HA in these situations. Theres not one character I dont rush offstage, Sonic has the tools to counter most threats and isnt burdened by the Sakurai Oath (YOU MUST RECOVER) so he can read and play appropiately. Going back to Metaknight, hitting him off stage is great as he has horrendous aerial mobility, he basically has to use a special moves or a glide attack to recover. By now every Sonic should know their options against those attacks.

 

[B.A.M.]

sorry for the double post. I was re-reading the OP and i saw a section regarding an opponent land camping with you while you spring recover. If this is happening simply footstool. You can footstool charged smashes (well any attack really although i have a hard time footstooling snakes uptilt -_-) or if they are just standing there and you get a grounded footstool i believe we get a dair guaranteed? Which can lead to a spring aerial chase. Just food for thought.

 

[Umby]

Hang tight, guys. I'll be done with midterms on Friday.

 

[da K.I.D.]

footstooling people that try to land camp you can work but not against some characters.

ike will up smash you
snake will up tilt you as you said
mks f smash makes his whole body a hit box,
fox will up smash you.


it can work but just be aware of the other character and their abilities

 

[B.A.M.]

^^^ very true. Footstools help me out a ton but like you said you have to be wary of other characters abilities. Fortunately moving away from the opponent initially aids this issue. For instance unless the snake is some phenom at true pivot uptilt, then moving away to incite the chase automatically limits their repertoire of moves to land camp you with. Majority of the moves they can do out of run can be footstooled or perfect airdodged as you are landing. So in my case combine with well timed airdodges sonic can land safely with only 2 frames of landing lag then run to a safe distance to reset his position.

Hey KID it sucks i wasnt able to play you when you were down here in Long Beach you shouldve hit me up instead of Susa initially so we couldve planned something out. whens the next time you'll be down in Cali?


MAJOR EDIT: We're discussing landing kills aka the bane of Sonic. Where the hell is every1? every great/decent sonic should be placing some input. this is major.

 

[JayBee]

I just think the edge game is the most underdeveloped right now, though there are great strides in using his ground speed and fakes to the fullest now. I think vids of people trying to add more to thier offstage game would help us improve it and verify that this is legit. that is all.

 

[chaoechidna]

ZSS theory of attack offstage. It works even better for sonic I feel. Spincharge>spin jump (not spinshot) off stage chasing opponent is the thing that gets me the most kills. I use Fair to get em, but I really like the semi spike that dair has to it, and i think that it is underused and mostly forgotten. Even if I don't get the semi spike, it gives em damage and sends them far enough above me that I don't have to worry about being killed while offstage. Which I never have to worry about anyway with sonic's spring. Chase em out, send em further, make it harder for them to recover. I think ppl are starting to use it more now, though, so good for us.

 

[Tesh]

How good is FF Uair1 as a kill setup. Besides the obvious uses vs fast fallers and folks with slow Dairs, does anyone know how reliable it is with any hard data. Like how long it stuns vs the landing lag and how many frames the victim is in the air. Certainly Uair1 is safe on hit, so it puts them next to us with a disadvantage. Does this at least put us in a position to power shield and hit back with a kill move?

For edge guarding I only use VSDJ if I truly have the luxury of time or if I want to mask whether or not its a bair or fair coming their way.

I also use ledgedropped bair-spring-dair autocancel to regrab(risky and probably not legitimately useful)

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Though I haven't been here in a while, I'd just like to put in that when recently playing Sonic offline, I was able to score kills with a B-air cancel to Fsmash. When I try to FF Bair, sometimes I don't even reach the opponent and drop too fast to actually get the kick to come out, but it does put me in the range of an Fsmash from a decent range.

 

[Sonic-Rave]

Though I haven't been here in a while, I'd just like to put in that when recently playing Sonic offline, I was able to score kills with a B-air cancel to Fsmash. When I try to FF Bair, sometimes I don't even reach the opponent and drop too fast to actually get the kick to come out, but it does put me in the range of an Fsmash from a decent range.

That's the Shado Combo I believe, and don't rely on it too much. It will get old quick and you'll get punished

 

[JayBee]

hopefully the next combo video i make will include some of the thoughts from this thread. I'm gonna try and put it in the competition so your support is appreiciated.


info is here

 

[Chis]

Shado combo? When was it called that?

Anyways, Sonic doesn't really have a good way of scoring kills reliably. But here are some ideas regardless.

Charging Dsmash can be used to punish side steps or land camp landings (against DK, Snake and the like).

Spacing with Sonic's fast walk, and Fsmashing works for me. Just walking out of their range but not out of the range of Fsmash.

Platform drop Bairs, run off platform Bairs can catch people off guard sometimes. If they're on a platform, SH and Bair for the kill.

 

[Umby]

For reference when making the next edit, at what percentage(s) does SDR -> Bair connect, and when does bair kill?



edit: fffffffff I did a good amount of editing, then FireFox crashed. I'll try again later tonight. ****.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont have anything to support this but its highly stage dependant but on an average size/weight character (mario) from the middle of the stage, im going to say it connects at the 125-170 range and kills at about 130 fresh

 

[Boxob.]

I connect it at as low as 45ish percent.

Idk when it kills fresh cause I use it lots for damage racking.

 

[Chis]

I think it's dependent on timing rather then percentage.

 

[Umby]

Finally made an update. Have at it.

 

[Camalange]

So, about the Anthinus combo.



I've been finding myself landing it a lot lately. Not the dash attack > spring variant, just the plant a spring while land camping style. I find it works really well on Snake, since he has very poor aerial options, and really it isn't safe for him to try to land on the ground to begin with. All of his aerials are laggy, and his best option is usually just to drop a C4 or hold onto grenades as he falls. I'd only recommend going for it against him at really high percents around like 150% or something, since he's so ******** heavy.

And of course, don't try and go for it multiple times within a set. Use it as an ace in the hole/mind****. Even though you're catching your opponent with the spring, your opponent gets their jumps and attacks restored almost immediatley, whereas Sonic still has to go through the spring start up animations. This leaves an opening where your opponent can react however they'd like, and it seems that most characters tend to have frame advantage at this point. Snake also knows how to kill you a lot quicker with his aerials than you do...

It's all about the element of surprise. Once you lose that element, the tables can easily be turned during an Anthinus combo attempt...

 

[Tenki]

Wow, Antheenus Cambo. I Think I Maybe Try It Will Lol

 

[Camalange]

Well, uh...
They actually can move before you. Sonic has that no-input time during spring, which can be sadface times if you plant the spring too late/close to the opponent, whereas the person bouncing off the spring gets their jumps and attacks renewed almost immediately.

shiiiiiiiiiiiii

that's what I meant. thanks for catching that mah boi.

 

[Umby]

Bump. I'm trying to finish this up.

 

[Espy Rose]

SDR to Bair is truly amazing. Over the weekend I netted a large chunk of my KOs thanks to the setup.

Malcolm says you can AD out of the SDR. That only applies if they DI the SDR appropriately, and if you're using the SDR correctly, they shouldn't be.

With bad DI or no DI, the SDR -> bair, when timed correctly, will hit the opponents DURING their initial hit stun, making air dodging impossible. The setup, for me, seemed to work around anywhere between 30%-170%.

Bair is strong when fresh, but even from the middle of Final Destination, I couldn't kill Olimar with SDR -> bair at 120%, and Olimar had no DI. This is obviously, then, better to use while they are near the ledge.

It MUST be an SDR directly into a bair. Hitting with the SDJ, or a ASC followed by a SDR will make the bair impossible to land at killing percents, and fair is a better option for optimal damage output at lower percents.

Now, with GOOD DI from the SDR, the opponent CAN airdodge or attack back before the bair comes out, but it's still possible to bait the opponent's attack or airdodge, and punish them for that. However, that doesn't seem too much of a point at the moment (or at least mine to make).

In short, use SDR to bair wisely. Makes it difficult to read, harder to DI, and easy to kill with.

 

[Browny]

i cant ever do that

I almost always jump-uair from a spindash on reaction, anything else just leaves me too punisable lol. Probably matchups dependant though i guess :/

 

[infomon]

I used to use tap-jump to lift the SDR off the ground (SDJ, whether or not that part would hit them) and then use control-stick+attack to use the aerial.

That was terrible. You should deffo use the jump button to lift off the ground, which frees your control stick for the aerial. OR you could c-stick the aerial but that makes it way harder to get your hands in position for whatever you were doing before or after, IMO.

My SDR > Bair never ever works if I don't remember to tap jump and input the Bair asap.

 

[Umby]

Anything else?

 

[Umby]

Decided I'd bump this so Speed can read it.

 

[JayBee]

footstooling people that try to land camp you can work but not against some characters.

ike will up smash you
snake will up tilt you as you said
mks f smash makes his whole body a hit box,
fox will up smash you.


it can work but just be aware of the other character and their abilities

ah, so that's what happened yesteday! I was playing Bolt's MK and I read him correctly when he went for a F-Smash, so i jumped over him to bair him, but i still got hit even tho i was over his head. Boooooooooooooo....