Umbra Clock tower viability discussion

[M@v]

Its bothering me how quiet it is back here recently. So here's some meat we can chew on while its slow: What does everything think of Umbra Clock Tower's legality? Personally, I view it as a being CP worthy for several reasons:

• several different platform combinations
• high ceiling
• would be the only legal stage that has a ceiling section you can knock people off of
• in its base form, its basically fd with higher ceilings
• no true hazards

I do realize some of the arguments against it though

• Distracting Background
• There is a walk off phase
• The phase with the second stage below the main one results in the camera acting really weird
• The exiting platforms off the top can result in a jank kill if you can throw or hit them upwards before the platforms dump you off of them.

The best and brightest of smash 4 are back here, so I want to hear some high level talk about this stage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I haven't seen enough of this stage played on recently to be frank.

I find it to be a fine counter pick stage but I am curious what would happen if people exploited it play more "lame" with the walkoff parts.

I do not find distracting background to ever be grounds from removing a stage.

 

[Gunla]

While I doubt we'll be doing ruleset or legality related things until later in the future, I have no issues with discussing this stage.

Here's my own thoughts from playing it quite heavily in the past week.

Pros:

• Larger stage gives off more variety than the majority of stages in rulesets (BF Variants, SV Variants, DH, LC, HB, FD Variants).
• Larger ceilings gives more variety and a good counterpick against characters who love to abuse the small ceilings of other stages.
• Unique platform layouts that transition quickly.
• No actual, intruding stage hazards that cause damage.
• Incredible music selection. It may not have the vocal versions of Tomorrow is Mine and Mysterious Destiny, nor does it have Fly Me To The Moon, but it's still incredible.
• Really awesome and different scenery. I'll admit that I'm really, really tired of seeing Smashville/T&C.
• Platforms do not kill at the top of the screen if they transition that way.

Cons:

• Walkoff section, ~30 seconds long (shorter than Castle Siege). Heck, the platforms aren't even connected to the main platform.
• Platform layouts are randomized; there are only a few patterns but they are not in a specific order, much like Pokemon Stadium.
• Getting stretchered/killed off the top mid transition is possible, but TC has that for the former and it's generally accepted as a neutral stage.
• One odd layout with a hard platform at the bottom creates brief moment of circle camping.
• While I don't have issues with the background, I can understand why some people might (some regions like to use an alternative for FD, usually Palutena's Temple Omega).

In short, it's a bit like Prism Tower on the 3DS Version (seriously, that stage is one of the best and brightest examples of a transforming stage I've ever seen) with the uniqueness of some of the layouts and how it incorporates a walkoff, and Arena Ferox's random preset layouts and slightly camp-based preferences. It feels like a CP to me.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I do not find distracting background to ever be grounds from removing a stage.

Actually, I'm becoming more of the opinion that some people may simply be far more easily distracted than others. While I don't find the stage to be too distracting personally, one of the main concerns that have been brought to me was not the walk-offs, not the cave of life or the transformations that encourage running away, or even the potential for janky kills off the top using the rising platforms; it was the sheer amount of distraction the stage caused them. If this is true and there is something to the claim that some people are simply more prone to distraction than others, then I'm not sure that I'm ok with including a stage that gives an advantage or disadvantage based on an unrelated natural tendency that can't be helped. I could use an analogy involving epilepsy but clearly that would be blowing things out of proportion. All I'm saying is that if the level of background distraction were bad enough, then this should definitely be considered as possible grounds for banning a stage. As for whether this stage's distraction game is bad enough, I'm still thinking about it.

 

[Marc]

I liked ESAM's vid on it, good overview of what the stage cycles through:

I agree with his conclusion that it heavily depends on the rest of the stage list. It's probably not worse than Delfino etc., but if those aren't legal, then this shouldn't be.

EDIT: And yeah, my scene considers visuals pretty seriously. I know one of the people complaining the most to have ADHD, but there are several other people who also have an issue with elements like the FD flash, Duck Hunt (fixed camera, grass) and Castle Siege Omega (literally can't see the right side offstage).

 

[Zigsta]

I need to play on this stage a lot more to form a more rounded opinion on the stage, but for now I find the background at times to be incredibly distracting. The other part that's kind of funky to me (and why it's different from Delfino, which I miss terribly here in SoCal) is that at times platforms come in that are solid. If you happen to get hit and sent flying at the right moment, just as the platform comes in, you can get stagespiked. I'm sure with more playing, that issue will happen less and less, though.

I've heard complaints about circlecamping, but I have yet to try circlecamping on the stage (as all my time on the stage has been spent with Bowser so far), nor have I had anyone try to circlecamp me on the stage. TheReflexWonder and Katakiri , have either of you guys tried circlecamping here with Wario/Jigglypuff or MK?

 

[Katakiri]

I've been CPing Umbra every chance I get. The BG is no worse than certain sections of Lylat Cruise imo (stage rumbling and turning red when entering Corneria's atmosphere) and the rumbling while admitted obnoxious serves the function of telling you when platforms are coming or going. But other than that, I really love this stage. It's kinda like a more balanced Pokemon Stadium 1. Being the only high ceiling stage other than BF is very nice for variety as well.

Referring to this thread's labeling of platform arrangements, Meta Knight has nothing that comes close to his circle-camping capabilities on Duck Hunt on any of Umbra's arrangements but arrangement #6. On #6 he can stall for time by circle camping the main & bottom platform in both clockwise and counterclockwise motions. Most characters can do this actually. However, being caught on the right side of the bottom platform when it starts to go away puts whoever was on it into an edge-guard situation, where they risk getting stage spiked if they try to jump directly to the ledge or just knocked into the blast-zone if they try to use the right-hand platform to recover so there is risk involved.

Something to note before going forward is that each platform arrangement is "active" for about 20 seconds with the one exception of #7. However, platforms may linger longer than 20 seconds due to them all having different ending animations. During their ending animations, arrangements stay on-screen for an additional 5-10 seconds while moving away from the stage until they're completely gone.

Arrangement #7 is active for probably the least amount of time of any arrangement (about 16 seconds total with no ending animation at all) and would only be an issue if it lasted longer. The camera also doesn't zoom out to show when the platform is moving in so it's very likely that by the time players even see the platform, it's already been out for 1/3rd of it's total duration. And once it's moved back off-stage, much like arrangement #6, it forces whoever was on it into an edge-guard or juggle situation. I consider this transformation like an extremely toned-down version of the PS1 windmill. You can launch people into it and hope they don't tech but if someone tries camping the top of the platform like Cloud charging limit, just wait underneath them and juggle them when the platform goes away.

Arrangement #3 has some potential to be abused for some pseudo-planking. Some characters can grab ledge, let go, Up-Air, land on the platform, then either wait on the platform or eventually Up-B to snap to ledge again. Naturally this benefits characters with invincible Up-B's like Mario's & Marth's more than it does anyone else since any advance to land on the platform to stop them from stalling is met with an invincible anti-air to ledge-snap. Any other characters that try this risk being edge-guarded or even spiked.

I don't think that comparing this stage to Delfino is even remotely accurate. The stage is far more akin to Smashville, T&C, Duck Hunt, and Pokemon Stadium 1 from past games. A 20-second-long walk-off that will only ever appear once (read: one time per game) in 2-stock format due to the 6-minute timer (7 transitions, 25 second each, and 25-30 seconds of downtime before each new transition) is not enough to make that comparison. Delfino upsets stage control constantly, Umbra always has the base FD platform much like T&C. There are many, many reasons that Delfino is a bad stage and Umbra really does not fall under any other them.

This argument dates way back to early Brawl but to this day, the Smashville platform is one of the most abuse-able, MU-changing, unbalanced stage platforms in the Smash series BUT we're used to it. And let me tell you, we'll get used to Umbra Clock Tower too. 3/7 of the platform arrangements are just the standard semi-solid platform above the stage, another one is literally Yoshi's Island Brawl's platform layout, every platform layouts is on a 20-25 second timer, never show up again in the current match, no water, no stage hazards, same blastzones as BF, and the stage becomes FD for a full 30 seconds immediately after every single transformation. Everything that is abuse-able about this stage has clear downsides to doing it unlike say camping the Smashville platform or circle-camping Duck Hunt's Tree & Bush as Meta Knight. All that said, I think Umbra is a CP stage very comparable to Duck Hunt, better in some ways actually but worse in others.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think it's an excellent stage for those who like to air camp, but that's just because of platform positioning. It actually has a decent bit in common with Town and City. It's less potent for early KOs through the platforms, and the ceiling is bigger, but it's a flat stage with little special going on literally half the time. Any complaints about stalling seem to be just as valid against T&C, with one of seven platform configurations creating a "cave of life" situation that comes up for only 30 seconds of any one match, assuming it goes to time. That's because the platforms cycle, so once it appears, it won't appear again until every other configuration has appeared.

Camping arguments don't currently move me because it's a not-as-long FD half the time. Other than the Starter/CP stages switched around, like Lylat and Dream Land, I think it's one of the most fair CPs.

 

[Shaya]

I have issues with it primarily on visual grounds (I find during some of the backgrounds its very difficult to discern motion/where things are), otherwise none of the platform positions I've seen or any mechanical aspects of the stage make me think unfit for competitive play (small chance of it affecting 6 minute matches maybe?), which is a shame.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Actually, I'm becoming more of the opinion that some people may simply be far more easily distracted than others. While I don't find the stage to be too distracting personally, one of the main concerns that have been brought to me was not the walk-offs, not the cave of life or the transformations that encourage running away, or even the potential for janky kills off the top using the rising platforms; it was the sheer amount of distraction the stage caused them. If this is true and there is something to the claim that some people are simply more prone to distraction than others, then I'm not sure that I'm ok with including a stage that gives an advantage or disadvantage based on an unrelated natural tendency that can't be helped. I could use an analogy involving epilepsy but clearly that would be blowing things out of proportion. All I'm saying is that if the level of background distraction were bad enough, then this should definitely be considered as possible grounds for banning a stage. As for whether this stage's distraction game is bad enough, I'm still thinking about it.

I liked ESAM's vid on it, good overview of what the stage cycles through:

I agree with his conclusion that it heavily depends on the rest of the stage list. It's probably not worse than Delfino etc., but if those aren't legal, then this shouldn't be.

EDIT: And yeah, my scene considers visuals pretty seriously. I know one of the people complaining the most to have ADHD, but there are several other people who also have an issue with elements like the FD flash, Duck Hunt (fixed camera, grass) and Castle Siege Omega (literally can't see the right side offstage).

I'm speaking for myself as someone with ADD.

If this background is distracting, I find it no less than Lylat or borderline FD, but I think Clock Tower is worse than FD for distracting.

I can understand it, but I have trouble justifying it as grounds for removing it since I feel like that might be going beyond what we do to accommodate people.

I mean we did the color rule for Sonic and Lucario back in the day with Brawl for teams and I do not want to sound insensitive to people with issues like this. I get it, I have the same issues.

But it's mostly me trying to figure out if it really hits home to that problem to a point where it is that bad against the stage.

If it is, idk, I would say if that is the case Lylat kind of does the same thing.

A lot of this is speaking as someone with it and I get it, but I don't like the idea of banning it for these cases when the stage could be an acceptable CP otherwise.

 

[CHOMPY]

Too many characters that have charging moves (Lucario, Samus, Cloud, Sheik, etc.) can all easily camp under the stage when the bottom platform appears. The stage itself is way to big to move around, so characters like Sonic can easily time you out. How much fun would it be to chase after a Sonic that can time you out? Like everyone said, the background is way too distracting, even in Omega form. When the platforms appear on stage, it aids characters like Bayonetta, ZSS, Metaknight net the kills much easier when the platforms are closer to the ceiling of the blastzone. Don't forget that when the platform goes up, characters like Kirby, Metaknight, and Charizard are all deadly with their Uthrow.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The stage is a less long version of FD about half of the time, and leaving the platforms often puts you above the opponent. I don't think timeouts are a major issue here; it's not that much more abusive than Town and City.

 

[NickRiddle]

I hate the stage, but can't formulate an argument against its legality except for pocket Clouds always getting limit forever... which isn't a reason to ban it.

 

[M@v]

I hate the stage, but can't formulate an argument against its legality except for pocket Clouds always getting limit forever... which isn't a reason to ban it.

Cloud gets limit forever on Town and City vs most of the cast as well.

 

[NickRiddle]

Cloud gets limit forever on Town and City vs most of the cast as well.

Except that puts Cloud above you as opposed to under the solid stage or camping a walk-off.