#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

Should we have at least one female newcomer in the DLC?


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Since this thread is about female characters for DLC, what are the franchises that are aimed at the female demographic (or at least has a large female demographic) with a female protagonist?
The Trendsetter from Style Savvy? Maybe Arle or Lip as well.

I don't really have data on which games are specifically played by larger female demographics, these are just guesses.
 

kool2419

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Now this is something i really can get behind so i support 100%. The lack of female representation in Smash really is upsetting to a lot of people (myself included) even though we have:ultpeach:,:ultzelda:,:ultzss:,:ultdaisy:,:ultpalutena:,:ultcorrinf:,:ultlucina:,:ultrobinf:,:ultrosalina:,:ultsheik:,:ultinkling:,:ultisabelle:,:ultpokemontrainerf:,:ultvillagerf:,:ultwendy:,:ultbayonetta:,:ultdarksamus:,:ultwiifittrainer:, & the mii`s there`s still a lack of female reps. But with more DLC inbound i have a feeling we might receive a few female characters and if we do then that will make me happy.

Here`s was the list of characters that i wanted to see get into Smash.
1. Dixie Kong(DK Country) (she`s long overdue)
2. Lyndis (Fire Emblem) (sadly she`s again stuck in Assist Trophy Hell)
3. Ashley (WarioWare) (same case as Lyn)
4. Ayumi Tachibana (Famicom Detective Club)
5. Lara Croft (Tomb Raider)
6. Chun-Li (Street Fighter) (the first lady of Fighting Games period, i was hoping that she was the second SF Rep)
7. Shantae (one of my Top 5)
8. KOS-MOS (Xenosaga) (another of my Top 5)
9. Medusa (Kid Icarus) (she would`ve been a good Palutena Echo)
10. Roll ( Megaman) (like Medusa would`ve been a good Megaman Echo)
11. D.va (Overwatch)
12. Tracer (Overwatch) ( i prefer D.va more but i wouldn`t mind Tracer though)
13. Mai Shiranui (Fatal Fury/King of Fighters)
14. Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers)
15. Sophitia Alexandra (Soul Calibur)
16. Sakura (Sakura Wars)
17. Camilla (Fire Emblem) (my third Top 5 pick)
18. Athena Asamiya (Psycho Soldier/King of Fighters)
19. Mipha (Legend of Zelda)
20. Style Savvy Rep
21. Tifa Lockhart (Final Fantasy)
22. Ribbon Girl (ARMS)
23. Miria (The Guardian Legend)
24. Reimu Hakurei (Touhou) (my fourth Top 5 pick with if possible Sanae Kochiya as an alt.)
25. Terra Branford (Final Fantasy)
26. Giana (Great Giana Sisters)
27. Lilac (Freedom Planet)
28. Krystal (Star Fox) (same case as Lyn & Ashley)
29. Pauline (Mario)
30. Mona (WarioWare)
31. Captain Syrup (Wario Land)
32. Pyra/Mythra (Xenoblade) (my number 1 Top 5 pick)
33. Monika (Doki Doki Literature Club)
34. Lip (Panel de Pon)
35. Kasumi (Dead or Alive)
36. Hat Kid (A Hat in Time)
37. Riesz (Mana Series)
38. Bianca (Dragon Quest)
39. Nakoruru (Samurai Spirits)
40. B. Orchid (Killer Instinct)
41. Kitana (Mortal Kombat)
42. Asuka (Senran Kagura)
43. 2B (Nier Automata)
44. Akira Howard (Astral Chain)
45. Solange (Code of Princess)

I know this is a long list.
 
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amageish

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Since this thread is about female characters for DLC, what are the franchises that are aimed at the female demographic (or at least has a large female demographic) with a female protagonist?
That is a very good question that I have no idea how to answer... We have a list of the genres usually played by women based on a survey from Quantic Foundry, which gives a good place to start. Here are the top 5:

- Match-3 Games: Puzzle Quest? I don't know anything about the series, but it does have a female character on the box and has just been given a remaster on Switch! So, that could work? Maybe? Someone else help me out here please... I don't know of any other match-3s with protagonists that aren't spin-off games or licensed games.

- Family Simulators: This sounds like the Sims, which sounds difficult to represent as one singular character (ignoring spin-offs, in which case I want DJ Candy for Smash). I suppose it could also include things like Animal Crossing, which is already represented...

- Farming Simulators: Lots of options here, even though the original farming simulators forced you to play as a man. Claire from Story of Seasons (formally known as Harvest Moon) would probably make the most sense for this genre, though you could also have the custom protagonist from Stardew Valley.

- Casual Puzzle: This is an insanely broad category. I'll pick three because why not. Arle from Puyo Puyo is from a more traditional puzzle series that has a slowly growing fandom in the west. Cooking Mama is from a minigame collection that is arguably in the scope of casual puzzle. Katrielle Layton is a puzzle game protagonist who inherited the series from her father on the grounds that the fanbase was majority-female anyway.

- Atmospheric Exploration: Again, this category seems incredibly broad. Katie from Gone Home probably would fit this one, but also you don't really see her in the game beyond in photos... Max from Life is Strange could also work for this maybe? Or Madelaine from Celeste? I honestly have no idea what this category means. Most games have atmospheres that you explore...

The same survey also listed three games with notable outliers with a lot of female players in male-dominated genres: Dragon Age: Inquisition, Assassin’s Creed Syndicate and Star Wars: The Old Republic. Evie Frye from Assassin's Creed would be cool, though I also imagine it would cause a saltstorm if she was the assassin chosen from the entire series. The Inquisitor from Dragon Age is customizable, which could work too, and Revan from The Old Republic is male (and also in the Star Wars universe, which would be a copyright nightmare).
 

BTHK_Nydus

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I honestly wouldn't be surprised at all if they themed the entire second fighter pass as all women. Nor would I be disappointed. Don't we all just want cool characters? The main thing is that it so far seems like Nintendo is focusing on adding new franchises with each character. So my top picks of female characters that are either the best representation of their franchise, or arguably tied with my reasoning added. The list is loosely sorted by my ranking character awesomeness:

Kasumi (Dead or Alive)
Sarah Kerrigan (Starcraft) [preferably Ghost, but Queen of Blades would be OK I guess]
-One might argue that Jim Raynor is the main character... but I would argue they're wrong. Plus he would suck in Smash and Kerrigan would be awesome.
Amaterasu (Okami)
I-No or Millia Rage (Guilty Gear)
-Ky Kiske and Sol Badguy are probably the "main characters" but I-No and Millia Rage are iconic GG characters and way more unique than Ky and Sol
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
Morrigan (Darkstalkers)
 
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Sarah Kerrigan (Starcraft) [preferably Ghost, but Queen of Blades would be OK I guess]
-One might argue that Jim Raynor is the main character... but I would argue they're wrong. Plus he would suck in Smash and Kerrigan would be awesome.
Getting a Starcraft character in Smash is one of my wildest pipedream. Also i totally agree on Kerrigan, i always perceived her as the main character of the series even if it's never clearly stated in the games (she has the most character development, she's pretty much always a central piece of the story and the ending of Starcraft 2 really confirms her place of protagonist at least for me).

As for her design, Queen of Blades is probably the most recognizable one of the two imo.

(Zeratul would also be pretty sick in Smash)
 
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I honestly wouldn't be surprised at all if they themed the entire second fighter pass as all women. Nor would I be disappointed. Don't we all just want cool characters? The main thing is that it so far seems like Nintendo is focusing on adding new franchises with each character. So my top picks of female characters that are either the best representation of their franchise, or arguably tied with my reasoning added. The list is loosely sorted by my ranking character awesomeness:

Kasumi (Dead or Alive)
Sarah Kerrigan (Starcraft) [preferably Ghost, but Queen of Blades would be OK I guess]
-One might argue that Jim Raynor is the main character... but I would argue they're wrong. Plus he would suck in Smash and Kerrigan would be awesome.
Amaterasu (Okami)
I-No or Millia Rage (Guilty Gear)
-Ky Kiske and Sol Badguy are probably the "main characters" but I-No and Millia Rage are iconic GG characters and way more unique than Ky and Sol
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
Morrigan (Darkstalkers)
In my opinion, making the second pass all-female is going to be divisive. One one hand, you'll have the people here happy about the equal gender ratio. On the other, you have the fans who clearly want Doomabusa, Danta, and so on, that cannot wait a single year worth of DLC just to make their character open again.
 

Mogisthelioma

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Since this thread is about female characters for DLC, what are the franchises that are aimed at the female demographic (or at least has a large female demographic) with a female protagonist?
I'm not sure I can give a definite answer to that. I always thought things like My Little Pony were targeted toward the demographic of young girls (judging by all the Cartoon Network commercials I saw for it as a kid) and look how it's turned out. I feel like simply having a female protagonist is enough since it's always been so easy to make a game with a generic, underdeveloped male protagonist. That's why I think if Nintendo wanted to pick one third party female character they should go with Lara Croft, since she and Samus share very similar histories.
 

TheDuke54

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Regarding Dixie, yes, she's overdue imo. I mean, she could pass as a Diddy Kong echo and it would still work. Either that or...I dunno.

I was looking at the polls right now and there were a small sentiment of people who did not want at least one female DLC character. I was like, "You don't want one? I demand an explanation!", but I'm afraid if I would say it violently in this forum I might get kicked out. I respect your opinion, but the curiosity inside of me just wanted to burst out. Explanation don't necessarily have to be so long as a 3,000 word personal essay.
Their thought on the matter is that they should be brought into the game if the series is iconic, well received, or they are. A female rep should not be thrown in 'just because we need more ladies to fix the male to female ratio' It's the same way I feel when someone wants a representation in a (game/show/book/whatever-series) They should just happen to be whatever it is that is being represented. It should not be their whole angle.

Yes, their are a lot of female inclusions the majority would be fine with. They should pick those. A lot of the posts here are throwing a huge list of females they could add. And some of them have such a small fanbase or their inclusion would be so random and not well received because they were just suggested simply because they're female. That should not be what gets them into smash. That should not be their angle.
 

SNEKeater

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I don't think the second pass will be all female characters. Even if the next DLC is a men, I don't think the actual pass could be considered a "male fighter pass", mostly because I strongly doubt that Sakurai or Nintendo are having that in consideration.
Maybe it's just me but any idea of a fighter pass being thematic sounds a bit absurd. No offense!
 

amageish

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I honestly wouldn't be surprised at all if they themed the entire second fighter pass as all women. Nor would I be disappointed. Don't we all just want cool characters? The main thing is that it so far seems like Nintendo is focusing on adding new franchises with each character. So my top picks of female characters that are either the best representation of their franchise, or arguably tied with my reasoning added. The list is loosely sorted by my ranking character awesomeness:

Kasumi (Dead or Alive)
Sarah Kerrigan (Starcraft) [preferably Ghost, but Queen of Blades would be OK I guess]
-One might argue that Jim Raynor is the main character... but I would argue they're wrong. Plus he would suck in Smash and Kerrigan would be awesome.
Amaterasu (Okami)
I-No or Millia Rage (Guilty Gear)
-Ky Kiske and Sol Badguy are probably the "main characters" but I-No and Millia Rage are iconic GG characters and way more unique than Ky and Sol
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
Morrigan (Darkstalkers)
I find it interesting how a lot of those characters are fighting game characters... I guess that's a genre that lends itself to badass heroines.

In my opinion, making the second pass all-female is going to be divisive. One one hand, you'll have the people here happy about the equal gender ratio. On the other, you have the fans who clearly want Doomabusa, Danta, and so on, that cannot wait a single year worth of DLC just to make their character open again.
I feel like they wouldn't announce it as all-female, just like they haven't announced if this one is all-male (ft. Kazooie) or not. It would probably just happen. As, yeah, Nintendo knows that speculation will get them free advertising, so they have no real reason to say something that would limit speculation that fundamentally.

Though, again, do we have actual confirmation of a second pass? I know more DLC has been confirmed, but I haven't seen anything about it being sold in a pass format.
 
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In my opinion, making the second pass all-female is going to be divisive. One one hand, you'll have the people here happy about the equal gender ratio. On the other, you have the fans who clearly want Doomabusa, Danta, and so on, that cannot wait a single year worth of DLC just to make their character open again.
Throw a half and half duo character like Rex and Pyra/Mythra, similar to Banjo and Kazooie in there, a genderswap where the default is female like the Octoling, or a fan favorite like Geno or Phoenix Wright (who has a lot of female fans) and make the rest female. People won't even notice if they're not revealed all in a row.
 
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Throw a half and half duo character like Rex and Pyra/Mythra, similar to Banjo and Kazooie in there, a genderswap where the default is female like the Octoling, or a fan favorite like Geno or Phoenix Wright (who has a lot of female fans) and make the rest female. People won't even notice if they're not revealed all in a row.
I see your point.
 

PsychoJosh

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I'm all for the idea of a female newcomer, but there's only so many characters it could be. I think Nintendo has a lot of female characters of its own to choose from. Bayonetta was great but Nintendo should prioritize their own girls before even thinking about adding any third party females.

Lip (Panel de Pon) (My top pick)
Mona (Warioware)
Mach Rider (yes, she's a woman!)
Jill Dozer
Dixie Kong
Pauline
Ayumi Tachibana
Alice (Balloon Kid)
 

1FC0

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I linked this tweet back in late August and I think I'll link it again.

It's a fighting game, so it's realistic to have more men in it. Subtracting that homogeneity will detract from realism. In fact, if it's about realism then many female characters would have to leave. It's not really realistic to have women fighting in dresses.


But I do not see the point of adding female characters solely for the sake of having more female characters. There are just more male gaming icons so it's natural for Smash to have more males in it. Balancing the genders out will mean snubbing some important characters for less important characters just because of their gender. Why not just look at characters as a whole instead of ignoring everything about them but their gender?


Besides, we've got Kazooie. It's a character that actually deserves the spot she got and it has nothing to do with her being female.
 
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It's a fighting game, so it's realistic to have more men in it. Subtracting that homogeneity will detract from realism. In fact, if it's about realism then many female characters would have to leave. It's not really realistic to have women fighting in dresses.


But I do not see the point of adding female characters solely for the sake of having more female characters. There are just more male gaming icons so it's natural for Smash to have more males in it. Balancing the genders out will mean snubbing some important characters for less important characters just because of their gender. Why not just look at characters as a whole instead of ignoring everything about them but their gender?


Besides, we've got Kazooie. It's a character that actually deserves the spot she got and it has nothing to do with her being female.
Banjo Kazooie is predominantly male because you control Banjo more than Kazooie.

I know it should have more man and whatnot, but people want characters they could identify themselves as. Giving them a female character will help know that women can fight as well as the males.

Identity is quite important if you look at it.
 
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It's a fighting game, so it's realistic to have more men in it. Subtracting that homogeneity will detract from realism.
Didn't even read the rest of your post, this is a game where fitness trainers, Venus flytraps with teeth, a giant penguin with a hammer, and a literal goddess can all fight on equal ground. lmao at the assertion that adding more women would make Smash less realistic.

Also Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet , I know you mean well, but treating posts like the one you're responding to as if they have any merit does more harm than good. They are trying to get you to believe that what you want is not a big deal, therefore they want you to look ridiculous for wanting it. You're not ridiculous for not being okay that the DLC is seemingly all male besides the Kazooie half of Banjo & Kazooie, it's an understandable want considering you and other women want other female characters to identify with.
 
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Didn't even read the rest of your post, this is a game where fitness trainers, Venus flytraps with teeth, a giant penguin with a hammer, and a literal goddess can all fight on equal ground. lmao at the assertion that adding more women would make Smash less realistic.

Also Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet , I know you mean well, but treating posts like the one you're responding to as if they have any merit does more harm than good. They are trying to get you to believe that what you want is not a big deal, therefore they want you to look ridiculous for wanting it. You're not ridiculous for not being okay that the DLC is seemingly all male besides the Kazooie half of Banjo & Kazooie, it's an understandable want considering you and other women want other female characters to identify with.
Thanks for the advice TheYungLink TheYungLink .

It's one of my personal weaknesses (making deal out of small things), and more likely than not, it won't be a true big deal. It's mostly entitled to personal opinion.
 

1FC0

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Didn't even read the rest of your post, this is a game where fitness trainers, Venus flytraps with teeth, a giant penguin with a hammer, and a literal goddess can all fight on equal ground. lmao at the assertion that adding more women would make Smash less realistic.
You were the one who brought it up that Smash should include more women for realism by quoting that tweet. And now you laugh at your own argument because you think realism does not matter?

Well then we agree that realism does not matter because I also thought that Smash does not need to be realistic.

Also Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet , I know you mean well, but treating posts like the one you're responding to as if they have any merit does more harm than good. They are trying to get you to believe that what you want is not a big deal, therefore they want you to look ridiculous for wanting it. You're not ridiculous for not being okay that the DLC is seemingly all male besides the Kazooie half of Banjo & Kazooie, it's an understandable want considering you and other women want other female characters to identify with.
So I am trying to make other people feel ridiculous according to the one who just explicitly stated that he did not even read the rest of my post and then laughed at me for what I said with "lmao". Was that not meant to make me feel ridiculous? And what about implying that my post has no merit? Is that not a way to make it seem as if my opinion is of little importance?

I'm not trying to make anyone feel ridiculous. Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet 's answer is actually much better at swaying people than your answer is. She respectfully explained her opinion and offered a counterargument to something I said which she disagreed with, you are just mocking me and falsely accusing me. Do you really think that mocking people's opinions will sway more people than respectfully arguing your case? Who's going to react better to mockery than to respectful discourse and real arguments?
 
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TheDuke54

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Kind of reminds me of the discussions you find on twitter where calling someone a clown is the best they can offer if one doesn't agree with someone's thoughts on the matter. 1FCO like myself and many others have already stated that having a female rep is fine as long as they deserve it. They even said Kazooie deserved her spot because of the dynamic duo and not cause she was just a female.

I haven't played Smash in a while, but from what I remember in Smash and the actual game Kazooie had just as much use if not more than Banjo with things like talon-trot, wonderwing, breegull bash, egg launch/farts ect. Banjo's moves in smash/BK is just moving around and using his bear claws.

That's not to say that I feel like some of the fighters that got in deserved their spot. Like I don't know how famous Incineroar? is since I haven't played Pokemon in years, but I could've cared less about his inclusion.
 
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I agree wholeheartedly with TheYungLink TheYungLink on this:
You're not ridiculous for not being okay that the DLC is seemingly all male besides the Kazooie half of Banjo & Kazooie, it's an understandable want considering you and other women want other female characters to identify with.
But i'm not sure 1FC0 1FC0 had such bad intentions, probably more a misunderstanding of some parts of the issue but again, i could be wrong.

It's a fighting game, so it's realistic to have more men in it. Subtracting that homogeneity will detract from realism. In fact, if it's about realism then many female characters would have to leave. It's not really realistic to have women fighting in dresses.
I'm pretty sure the word realism in the tweet refers to 'a realistic representation of gender diversity', not realism in the broader sense of the word.
Why not just look at characters as a whole instead of ignoring everything about them but their gender?
Correct me if i'm wrong but i don't think that 'ignoring everything about a character but their gender' was ever the point here. The way i see it, it's exactly like you propose: 'looking at a character as a whole' considering that gender is an integral part of a character. A part that's more important for some people and less important for others.

But I do not see the point of adding female characters solely for the sake of having more female characters.
And it's totally ok to not understand the point, you can always ask people what they think about it and try your best to learn more about it. Anyway, I don't want to sound like a broken record so I'll just reshare my opinion on the matter (in case you didn't read the whole thread):
I'll explain how i see it, maybe it'll help, i genuinely hope it will. Take it with a grain of salt, it's just my own understanding based on what i know. Gender is a big part of someone's identity, it has an almost unavoidable influence on how we perceive ourselves and how others perceive us. It is a way bigger part of us than our nationality (for example, in reference to your ' What’s actually lacking in smash are American characters' post).

One of the major reason why people like a particular fictional character (but far from the only reason) is because they can easily identify to them. In video games like Smash, playing as a character you like can greatly enhance your experience. Obviously, it's not a matter of life and death but simply a matter of maximising fun for everyone. It can be hard to understand for male consumers because we always had a lot (i mean, a LOT) of male characters, male protagonists to choose from (in games in general) and never had to even think about it so in a way, i can understand why you see it as a non-issue.

There's also the more ''political'' reason why representation is important, having a more accurate representation of gender diversity in entertainment media. But personally i don't think here is the best place to discuss this one, it is very likely to derail the thread from its purpose.
 
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I've been thinking about sharing my take on this, so here we go. When selecting characters to request/support, I usually focus on the character as a whole (personality plays a part), moveset potential, whether or not they're hypeworthy/iconic, fan support, and if I like their game in general. I'm not one to support a character just because they're a specific gender, race, sexuality etc. There has to be more reasoning as to why I want this character in the game. I wouldn't be mad if there were no females in the pass, but I'm totally down for having more females in the game, as long as they're worthy and fun additions to the roster. Here's some that I think would be cool:

Tracer/D.va (Overwatch)
Dixie Kong
Amaterasu (Okami)
Shantae
Birdo (as a Yoshi echo)

(I'll add more to the list if I think of any.)

I also have a strong feeling Terry Bogard will come with a female alt skin.

That's all I have to say. Keep it civil please :)
 
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I've been thinking about sharing my take on this, so here we go. When selecting characters to request/support, I usually focus on the character as a whole (personality plays a part), moveset potential, whether or not they're hypeworthy/iconic, fan support, and if I like their game in general. I'm not one to support a character just because they're a specific gender, race, sexuality etc. There has to be more reasoning as to why I want this character in the game. I wouldn't be mad if there were no females in the pass, but I'm totally down for having more females in the game, as long as they're worthy and fun additions to the roster. Here's some that I think would be cool:

Tracer/D.va (Overwatch)
Dixie Kong
Amaterasu (Okami)
Shantae
Birdo (as a Yoshi echo)

(I'll add more to the list if I think of any.)

I also have a strong feeling Terry Bogard will come with a female alt skin.

That's all I have to say. Keep it civil please :)
That's a good point. Coming from a feminist's perspective, Sakurai does choose characters based on their entire kit that doesn't include gender. However, just like what Blade of Evil's Bane Blade of Evil's Bane said, people need to get characters they could identify themselves with. Smash as a whole generally played by males, though the female demographic still exists, and it is up to Sakurai acknowledge that small partition. Smash wants to appeal at a global scale, and we cannot say that the female side will not be represented. Point is, people also want characters they can relate to.

With that in mind, I like your list. Wishing you the best of luck.

The Terry female alt...is 10% probable in my opinion. It came from a game designed for fanservice, mind you, so I highly doubt it will actually to the game. His Garou alt is more likely considering that, compared to the fanservice-y form, it's super-iconic to the fanbase. Compared to SNK Heroines, Garou is one of the biggest gems in SNK's track record. I'm totally down for it.
 
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KatKit

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It's a fighting game, so it's realistic to have more men in it.
This is a party/platformer/fighting game hybrid with a toy robot, mice, an 8 inch pink blob, and so on. Smash has always been anything but realistic.

I accidentally submitted this post before I was finished, so I'll address the rest of your nonsense later.
 
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It's a fighting game, so it's realistic to have more men in it.
I'm sorry, Miss KatKit KatKit but he has a point.

You could say Skullgirls is the exception since it features more women than men, but if you take into consideration every A-list fighting game out there, there are more men then women despite the iconic-ness of said women (Chun Li, Mai, etc). While this is the case, Smash will never aim for the ideal gender ratio when it comes to DLC. That being said, there are still a lot of women, so it's no doubt that Sakurai would opt to add 1 to appeal to this demographic.

The point is, we will never reach the ideal ratio of equal representation, but Sakurai would never leave the female demographic hanging.
 
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KatKit

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I'm sorry, Miss KatKit KatKit but he has a point.

You could say Skullgirls is the exception since it features more women than men, but if you take into consideration every A-list fighting game out there, there are more men then women despite the iconic-ness of said women (Chun Li, Mai, etc). While this is the case, Smash will never aim for the ideal gender ratio when it comes to DLC. That being said, there are still a lot of women, so it's no doubt that Sakurai would opt to add 1 to appeal to this demographic.

The point is, we will never reach the ideal ratio of equal representation, but Sakurai would never leave the female demographic hanging.
Actually... there are popular games like Under-Night In-Birth [ST], Blazblue Central Fiction and Tag, and DoA 6 and other solid fighters with dedicated fanbases like Arcana Hearts, Koihime Enbu, Blade Strangers, Melty Blood, and Chaos Code that don't have predominantly male rosters. And older fighters that used to have a handful of token female characters are starting to even things out as well (Street Fighter/Tekken) and a game like Soul Calibur had an all female season pass that surpassed their expectations and was successful enough to create a then unplanned second season (and fans are still demanding Setsuka and Hilde).

I think that the point is that for a celebration of all things gaming, Smash has put women on the back burner. It can expand its audience if it tried harder to cater to a demographic it normally doesn't: little girls. Smash doesn't have to have a 50/50 ratio for the sake of it, but it can be better and there should be more options available for everyone (guys like playing as women, too), for various reasons explained throughout this thread.
 
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amageish

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Actually... there are popular games like Under-Night In-Birth [ST], Blazblue Central Fiction and Tag, and DoA 6 and other solid fighters with dedicated fanbases like Arcana Hearts, Melty Blood, and Chaos Code that don't have predominantly male rosters. And older fighters that used to have a handful of token female characters are starting to even things out as well (Street Fighter/Tekken) and a game like Soul Calibur had an all female season pass that surpassed their expectations and was successful enough to create a then unplanned second season (and fans are still demanding Setsuka and Hilde).

I think that the point is that for a celebration of all things gaming, Smash has put women on the back burner. It can expand its audience if it tried harder to cater to a demographic it normally doesn't: little girls. Smash doesn't have to have a 50/50 ratio for the sake of it, but it can be better and there should be more options available for everyone (guys like playing as women, too), for various reasons explained throughout this thread.
^ This. While I do agree with the argument that Smash Brothers as a franchise is partly limited by the fact that video games as a medium have historically failed to represent women, it's hard to deny they've been on the backburner this DLC cycle. I mean, we didn't get any female alternates for Hero in spite of Four's female form being more popular then their male form...
 
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Actually... there are popular games like Under-Night In-Birth [ST], Blazblue Central Fiction and Tag, and DoA 6 and other solid fighters with dedicated fanbases like Arcana Hearts, Melty Blood, and Chaos Code that don't have predominantly male rosters. And older fighters that used to have a handful of token female characters are starting to even things out as well (Street Fighter/Tekken) and a game like Soul Calibur had an all female season pass that surpassed their expectations and was successful enough to create a then unplanned second season (and fans are still demanding Setsuka and Hilde).

I think that the point is that for a celebration of all things gaming, Smash has put women on the back burner. It can expand its audience if it tried harder to cater to a demographic it normally doesn't: little girls. Smash doesn't have to have a 50/50 ratio for the sake of it, but it can be better and there should be more options available for everyone (guys like playing as women, too), for various reasons explained throughout this thread.
This honestly makes me even more jealous of other fighting games as well.

"Oh my gosh, Smash is still only allowing boys, what a shame."

"We got an all-female pass and you're still offering hunky boys? Meh."

"You're DLC a sausage party."

"Still stuck in the 80's aren't ya?"

This was literally what I believe other fighting games are saying to Smash. This was one of my mindsets in creating this forum. At least one female fighter is enough to cater this small audience. While this does not show the ideal demographic, this still shows that they are still relevant.
 

1FC0

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This is a party/platformer/fighting game hybrid with a toy robot, mice, an 8 inch pink blob, and so on. Smash has always been anything but realistic.
Agreed, but this does not address my point, it addresses TheYungLink's point and puts it up as a strawman against me. I never said that Smash needs to be realistic. I just said that in a fighting game realistic gender ration's would imply having more men. I said that as a reply to TheYungLink who did imply that Smash should have realistic gender ratio's. I even quoted the tweet so it was obvious that the whole realism issue was not my but his point.


"Still stuck in the 80's aren't ya?"
Indeed, But since Smash is about gaming history, it's supposed to be partly stuck in the 80's. Even Mario himself is from the 80's. It's just a side effect of trying to represent history: If you try to represent a history that mostly contains males then you're going to end up with a lot of males. This is what I think is the reason for Smash having mostly males.


Anyway, I would not mind having more females included in DLC. More specifically, I happen to think that Tomb Raider is sorely missing from the roster.
 
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KatKit

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Agreed, but this does not address my point, it addresses TheYungLink's point and puts it up as a strawman against me. I never said that Smash needs to be realistic. I just said that in a fighting game realistic gender ration's would imply having more men. I said that as a reply to TheYungLink who did imply that Smash should have realistic gender ratio's. I even quoted the tweet so it was obvious that the whole realism issue was not my but his point.
Sorry, as aforementioned, I accidentally hit submit before I finished my post. However, the point mostly remains the same: in a fighting game like Smash (where brute strength is irrelevant), the realistic gender ratio you tried to describe doesn't make sense. If you were talking about fighting games in general (compared to most other options on the market), it still wouldn't cut it. The real world example that applies to the Tweet was about the general population. Since there are iconic female characters not yet added to the game that can bring things to the roster (including 1st party IPs with no reps) without feeling samey and expand Smash's audience, why not add them if we are roughly have of the world's population? Why is there a roster with ~80+ characters, with only 22 gals (including alts, echoes, costume swaps, different versions of the same character, etc.)? And until Smash 4 came out (almost 15 years in the series' lifespan) that number was 5 (2 of which were different versions of the same character; and one being half of the Ice Climbers duo).


Indeed, But since Smash is about gaming history, it's supposed to be partly stuck in the 80's. Even Mario himself is from the 80's. It's just a side effect of trying to represent history: If you try to represent a history that mostly contains males then you're going to end up with a lot of males. This is what I think is the reason for Smash having mostly males.
Past and present; it's supposed to celebrate everything. Female characters and many of the games they're featured in were and are a big part of that.

I think a contributing factor is poor marketing decisions, sexism, and the culture some of the older developers grew up with. For a series focusing on celebrating gaming as a whole, it could've done better with regards to its female representation. They are aware of it (otherwise the old ballot probably wouldn't have added a gender option on the poll and Sakurai wouldn't have praised Smash 4 for including more women than the older entries). I'm sure they'll address it in future DLC and sequels.
 
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1FC0

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The real world example that applies to the Tweet was about the general population.
Smash is supposed to represent gaming history, not the general population.

Past and present; it's supposed to celebrate everything. Female characters were and are a big part of that.
But male characters are an even bigger part. Gaming history in total (i.e. from it's beginning up to the present) still has a heavy bias towards male characters (mostly due to the past but the present does not really compensate for it). A side effect of properly representing gaming history in the roster is that the gender bias of gaming history will also be represented.

In order to balance out the roster one would need to have have a weaker representation of gaming history that does not represent it's gender bias. In order to do that one would have to leave out important male characters for less important female characters. But then it's not really the best representation that it could be, since it leaves out a few iconic characters for less iconic ones. The root of the problem is that Smash is trying to represent something which heavily favours males and is supposed to do it without favouring males. It's as if I asked someone to paint a black swan as accurately as possible but forbade him from mostly using black. The painting would end up less accurate.


So in short, I think that the cause for the gender bias in the roster lies not with Smash but with gaming history.
 
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Impa4Smash

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Let's say Fighter #5 is a dood. Doomguy or Ryu or Crash, what have you.

And let's say Fighter Pass 2 is all female, no matter how unlikely. Who do you think would be included? Not necessarily who you want, but who do you think would be?

Here's my guess:

1) Tracer (Overwatch)
2) Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
3) Lara Croft (Tomb Raider)
4) 2B (Nier)
5) Akira Howard (Astral Chain)
 
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KatKit

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Smash is supposed to represent gaming history, not the general population.
First lyrical song in any video game starred a woman. The face of the most successful educational video game series that spawned several successful television programs and has history on Nintendo consoles is a woman. Marth and Roy managed to make it overseas and Smash boosted their series' popularity, but a different character that was also considered was dropped, despite also being foreign. Said character... was a woman. Heck, the most popular Street Fighter character is a woman (Sakura). One of the top selling video game franchises of all time (The Sims) has a predominately female playerbase. Since history covers recent things, let's see... Half of the face of Nintendo's newest (and successful) fighting game IP is a woman. Another (relatively) recent IP that's one of the best selling DS games (selling over 1.5 million copies in Europe alone), that has already made 4 games since 2008, not only stars a female character, but is marketed towards little girls. One of the top selling Eshop titles on the 3DS stars a woman. A niche late-life Wii U RPG that released at the perfect time to have a playable character in Ultimate starred two women (if we count the avatar character) and sold pretty darn well, considering its circumstance, and has a decent amount of people demanding the character. Give me decade since the 80's, and I can provide you with notable female character contributions. Gaming history isn't as male-centric as Smash makes it out to be.

But male characters are an even bigger part. Gaming history in total (i.e. from it's beginning up to the present) still has a heavy bias towards male characters (mostly due to the past but the present does not really compensate for it). A side effect of properly representing gaming history in the roster is that the gender bias of gaming history will also be represented.
They had the advantage of being perceived as more marketable. But the not-so-distance past and especially the present has tons of female characters leading critically acclaimed games.

And with characters like Little Mac and Ice Climbers, and even ones like Ness and Captain Falcon, Smash isn't afraid of shying away from characters who don't hold a candle to the likes of Mario or Pikachu. So, what's wrong with characters like Sami, Barbara, Jill Dozer, or Kachi?

In order to balance out the roster one would need to have have a weaker representation of gaming history that does not represent it's gender bias. In order to do that one would have to leave out important male characters for less important female characters. But then it's not really the best representation that it could be, since it leaves out a few iconic characters for less iconic ones. The root of the problem is that Smash is trying to represent something which heavily favours males and is supposed to do it without favouring males. It's as if I asked someone to paint a black swan as accurately as possible but forbade him from mostly using black. The painting would end up less accurate. Various critically acclaimed

So in short, I think that the cause for the lack of gender bias in the roster lies not with Smash but with gaming history.
Or you know, they can just add more women.
 
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In order to balance out the roster
'Balancing the roster' was never the point, it seems to me that you just assumed this part. Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet and other people mentionned it a few times (and it's even implied in the title of the thread), it's about wanting at least one female fighter out of 5 (in the current fighter pass).

The 'realism' part from the tweet isn't hard to understand, it's simply non-homogeneity = realism. Homogeneous basically means 'made of parts of the same kind' (like, for example, an all male fighter pass, an homogeneous fighter pass). So again, it was never about a 50/50 representation.

You made some good points about the influence of the gaming industry, thing is, it was already discussed plenty of times in the thread. So yeah, it's getting pretty clear at this point that gaming history has an influence on gender representation in the Smash roster.

Tbh i think you should at least read the rest of the thread or parts of it before barging in, quoting the second post, misinterpreting it and the whole purpose of the thread, derailing it in the process.
 
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Let's say Fighter #5 is a dood. Doomguy or Ryu or Crash, what have you.
Then that will be be one of the many times I put my resting ***** face on. We got those guys before we got any other viable women that can be represented in Smash. Trust me, you won't like it if I enter my ***** mode. More fighters coming? Then may the gods have mercy on me. I'm just a cynical thinker. First my most wanted character has zero chance of making it in, then next thing I know is that I'll just come to face reality. Such a harsh environment Lady Fate has in store for me.

Or you know, they can just add more women.
That's the point. Despite this gaming history stuff thrown all over the place, there is still room for female (and I mean true) representation. Not just a part of a character, but a full, 100% female, 100% playable, character. Like I have noted before, back then, I used to believe that I wouldn't buy the pass due to the unequal representation, but things have changed. Now, all I'm asking is that at the very damn least we get represented. I don't care if we have a predominantly male roster just as long as women get a proper rep to say the least.

The 'realism' part from the tweet isn't hard to understand, it's simply non-homogeneity = realism. Homogeneous basically means 'made of parts of the same kind' (like, for example, an all male fighter pass, an homogeneous fighter pass). So again, it was never about a 50/50 representation.

You made some good points about the influence of the gaming industry, thing is, it was already discussed plenty of times in the thread. So yeah, it's getting pretty clear at this point that gaming history has an influence on gender representation in the Smash roster.

Tbh i think you should at least read the rest of the thread or parts of it before barging in, quoting the second post, misinterpreting it and the whole purpose of the thread, derailing it in the process.
You're giving me 12th grade chemistry PTSD. But that doesn't mean I don't agree with it. Yes, a homogenous Fighters Pass is something that would not appeal to the scale that Smash is reaching. Yes, you can get the best reps from each part of the world, but that doesn't mean you're leaving out the women.

Yes, again with gaming history. Just one will do. That is all. I'm already sounding like a broken record.

I should make it a point to take down notes from every single part of this thread and put it on the header such that everyone will at least know what we're talking about before they start their keyboard warrior-ing.
 

amageish

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Let's say Fighter #5 is a dood. Doomguy or Ryu or Crash, what have you.

And let's say Fighter Pass 2 is all female, no matter how unlikely. Who do you think would be included? Not necessarily who you want, but who do you think would be?

Here's my guess:

1) Tracer (Overwatch)
2) Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
3) Lara Croft (Tomb Raider)
4) 2B (Nier)
5) Akira Howard (Astral Chain)
Ooo! Interesting thought experiment. Being realistic, I'd probably say:
1) Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
2) Reimu (Touhou Project)
3) Arle (Puyo Puyo)
4) 2B (Nier)
5) Kasumi (Dead or Alive)

Also, for anyone saying that we don't get female characters because they're not requested, we have the tentative not-official-but-based-on-the-data-apparently results of the Sabi/PapaGenos/Scott Smash Bros fanpoll.

Poll Results.png

Now, I think they're still working on removing bots and such, but I'd say the 5th and 6th character being female isn't bad, especially when you consider that a vast majority of characters are polling under 1%.
 
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Ooo! Interesting thought experiment. Being realistic, I'd probably say:
1) Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
2) Reimu (Touhou Project)
3) Arle (Puyo Puyo)
4) 2B (Nier)
5) Kasumi (Dead or Alive)

Also, for anyone saying that we don't get female characters because they're not requested, we have the tentative not-official-but-based-on-the-data-apparently results of the Sabi/PapaGenos/Scott Smash Bros fanpoll.


Now, I think they're still working on removing bots and such, but I'd say the 5th and 6th character being female isn't bad, especially when you consider that a vast majority of characters are polling under 1%.
TOUHOU SQUAD HWAITING

Reimu having more percentage over Doom Slayer? I'm sorry for all the Doom fans reading this, but this does put a small grin on my face.

At this rate if Geno was a playable fighter then I think we might break trend records.
 

Ben Holt

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TOUHOU SQUAD HWAITING

Reimu having more percentage over Doom Slayer? I'm sorry for all the Doom fans reading this, but this does put a small grin on my face.

At this rate if Geno was a playable fighter then I think we might break trend records.
Doom Slayer is tied with Crash Bandicoot for my most wanted. I have zero connection to Touhou, so Reimu would be on par with Terry Bogard as far as my reaction (I'm happy for whomever wanted it, but I personally didn't care for).
I'd infinitely prefer Laura Croft over Reimu if the sole criteria is being female.
I'd even prefer Shantae, and I actively believe that having Shantae as the first Indie rep would be a slap in the face to Shovel Knight.
 

1FC0

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'Balancing the roster' was never the point, it seems to me that you just assumed this part. Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet Lesley Black Velvet and other people mentionned it a few times (and it's even implied in the title of the thread), it's about wanting at least one female fighter out of 5 (in the current fighter pass).

The 'realism' part from the tweet isn't hard to understand, it's simply non-homogeneity = realism. Homogeneous basically means 'made of parts of the same kind' (like, for example, an all male fighter pass, an homogeneous fighter pass). So again, it was never about a 50/50 representation.
In that case, congratulations with Kazooie. Thanks to her the fighter pass is not all female and thus homogeneity has been broken.
 
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In that case, congratulations with Kazooie. Thanks to her the fighter pass is not all female and thus homogeneity has been broken.
No, no, no, no. If that was the case, then why did I ever start up this thread in the first place, if we were going under that logic?

See, here's my thought on the Kazooie debacle: She's just one-half of an existing duo character. Duo characters are quite divisive to say the least. For one, nearly everyone brings up Banjo and does not mention Kazooie. That is already an indication. Another thing is that Kazooie is not a fully-fledged fighter; she's just a part of a whole character. This thread aims for a 100% fully female, playable fighter. Hence, I do not consider her a "true" female fighter. This thread is supporting the inclusion of the true female fighter.

Ben Holt Ben Holt , I do respect the Doom Slayer requesters, but I would honestly prefer him to be part of Fighters Pass Season 2. As I have mentioned, Sakurai was just testing the waters for a Western rep with BK. Plus, the entire pass was finalized in late 2018. While I have no ill intent against the Domabusa debacle, I fully respect that they want their characters in.

I just came back recently from a seminar that talked about representation in comics (yes, I'm a comics geek by the way). I took note of a certain quote that would be helpful in our case:

"People want to be able to see characters who are like them in the media they consume. They should."
Going back to the female representation, the Fighters Pass wants to be bought by a large scale. Including the female demographic. To see a female fighter whom they can identify with gender will bring over the fans. Hence, if we were going with the speculation of an all-male pass, then the entirety of the DLC will alienate the demographic. Why would girl gamers want to identify with hunky men, macho ninjas or armored bulky marines, when they would opt to go for the character that they would closely relate with? Smash as a whole is catering towards a massive demographic, and the female one is part of that, so Smash has every right to let them be represented in newcomers that they could find a bit of themselves in.

While Smash is a celebration of gaming, and gaming is tarnished with its male dominance, there is still the right for women to be properly acknowledged as being capable to join the game's roster.
 

1FC0

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See, here's my thought on the Kazooie debacle: She's just one-half of an existing duo character. Duo characters are quite divisive to say the least. For one, nearly everyone brings up Banjo and does not mention Kazooie. That is already an indication. Another thing is that Kazooie is not a fully-fledged fighter; she's just a part of a whole character. This thread aims for a 100% fully female, playable fighter. Hence, I do not consider her a "true" female fighter. This thread is supporting the inclusion of the true female fighter.
Well, BAnjo & KAooie is not fully male either. So I guess we could recognise 4 different categories for gender then:

- Male
- Female
- mixed male/female
- Genderless

That would make Banjo and Kazooie a mixed character. So there's no homogeneity but no female either in the DLC. This also makes Daisy, Peach, Nana, female Robin, and Rosalina & Luma mixed since they rely on non-females as well. Though now that I think about it, What is Luma's gender? They might be genderless too as far as I know.

And what about Pokemon Trainer? Their Pokemon are likely to be male (7/8 chance to be male).
Also I'm not sure if Jigglypuff's gender has been confirmed, but going off gender ratio she's 75% likely to be female. And Lucario also has a 87.5% chance to be male.

I may be forgetting some but here are all the character genders that are in the game that I can think of right now:

- Male
- Female
- male/female
- Genderless
- male/male
- unknown/unknown/unknown (We do not know Duck Hunt's genders, right? The third unknown is for the implied shooter)
- female/genderless
- male/87.5% male/87.5% male/87.5% male
- female/87.5% male/87.5% male/87.5% male
- 75% female
- 87.5% male

I think that they should add Professor Hector & R.O.B. as a character to represent male/genderless. R.O.B. could be like Chrom in that he's part of another character and a character on his own. Though seeing how they seem to dislike most from R.O.B.'s franchise besides R.O.B. himself, they probably won't add Professor Hector anytime soon. He's not even a spirit right now.

Oh well, if the 5th fighter is female then I hope it's Tomb Raider or a female alt of Minecraft Steve along with Minecraft Steve.
 
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