Q&A Ultimate Falco: Gameplay & General Discussion

Dcas

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Yes, Falco on platforms is filthy. It feels like this character climbs a whole tier in battlefield. His combo games gets crazy with the help of platforms, his aerials cover these platforms very well.

I disagree with Kalos tho, depends on the MU, vs a zoner is a nightmare.
 
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Ffamran

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Dcas Dcas and among others talked about Falco's Ftilt. It might not have been used as much or as well as it could have been, but DreeGon, a Danish player, does use Falco's Ftilt a lot.

DreeGon vs. Vibvib's Kirby (pools): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGv0Plqvn-w.

DreeGon vs. KingFunk's Yoshi (pools): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iDMmbInI5Q.

DreeGon vs. Calmaty's Pichu (winners quarters): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXTJagG3PGE.

DreeGon vs. Melih's Mario (winners semis): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT88RTajF9w.

DreeGon vs. Tsun's Lucina (losers quarters): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BIeshyF6_s.

DreeGon vs. King Funk's Yoshi (losers semis): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1Rhy-sPDGg.

DreeGon vs. Melih's Mario (losers finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXs7Z6nbFvM.

DreeGon vs. Laske's Pokemon Trainer and Chrom (grand finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLCrWr8PtHw.

As far as I know, Anragon dropped Falco, but for whatever reason, he decided to use him during Pink City Clash 2. Basically, don't expect to see Anragon's Falco in Ultimate unless he decides to pick him back up. One thing he does use very well is either drop cancels or shield platform drops allowing him to put out Falco's aerials, mostly Uair in these matches, immediately as he drops down platforms.

Anragon vs. Natsuw's Peach (pools): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4LiDaXEz4.

Anragon vs. Tetsuyo's Kirby and Mario (winners round 2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbPgEqufKE.

Anragon's Falco and Inkling vs. Tidus's Samus (losers semis): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_fgMy0L5m8.
 
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Justin Allen Goldschmidt

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Dcas Dcas and among others talked about Falco's Ftilt. It might not have been used as much or as well as it could have been, but DreeGon, a Danish player, does use Falco's Ftilt a lot.

DreeGon vs. Vibvib's Kirby (pools): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGv0Plqvn-w.

DreeGon vs. KingFunk's Yoshi (pools): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iDMmbInI5Q.

DreeGon vs. Calmaty's Pichu (winners quarters): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXTJagG3PGE.

DreeGon vs. Melih's Mario (winners semis): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT88RTajF9w.

DreeGon vs. Tsun's Lucina (losers quarters): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BIeshyF6_s.

DreeGon vs. King Funk's Yoshi (losers semis): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1Rhy-sPDGg.

DreeGon vs. Melih's Mario (losers finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXs7Z6nbFvM.

DreeGon vs. Laske's Pokemon Trainer and Chrom (grand finals): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLCrWr8PtHw.

As far as I know, Anragon dropped Falco, but for whatever reason, he decided to use him during Pink City Clash 2. Basically, don't expect to see Anragon's Falco in Ultimate unless he decides to pick him back up.

Anragon vs. Natsuw's Peach (pools): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4LiDaXEz4.

Anragon vs. Tetsuyo's Kirby and Mario (winners round 2): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbPgEqufKE.

Anragon's Falco and Inkling vs. Tidus's Samus (losers semis): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_fgMy0L5m8.
Falco ftilt is great. Who doesn't use it?... It's better than jab in a ton of scenarios, and up-angled covers dumb jump-ins pretty surprisingly well against characters with small limbs.
 

Ffamran

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Falco ftilt is great. Who doesn't use it?... It's better than jab in a ton of scenarios, and up-angled covers dumb jump-ins pretty surprisingly well against characters with small limbs.
A lot of Falco players don't believe it or not. Most Falco players on the ground fish for Utilt which makes sense because of what Utilt does for Falco; Utilt is a hit and kill confirm and can anti-air well because of its speed and hitbox. Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, and Up Smash are usually neglected since they don't give the immediate feedback Utilt gives of land a Utilt and Falco gets to combo or follow-up with whatever. It's a general problem where people want big conversions, buttons that let them do a lot of damage or oppress their opponent.

Jab can be used to outbox most characters, Ftilt is good for poking, Dtilt launches for followups and is a fairly fast punish that does a lot of damage and is a natural disjoint since it uses his tail, Ftilt and Dtilt would also be safer on shield than Utilt because of their longer horizontal range and higher damage as the second hit of Utilt's base damage is only 4.0% while Ftilt's is 6.0% and Dtilt's is 10.5% at the tip, 12.0% with the middle hitbox, and 13.0% with the sweetspot at the base of his tail, and Up Smash is a good and safer anti-air because of its leg invincibility and its high active frames which also lets it cover ledge getups. Thing is that along with Blaster, they're more of neutral tools. You can follow up with some of them like Dtilt, but they're not as guaranteed or easy from Uair which is more of a combo tool that also happens to be an anti-air.

Most of the time when I see Ftilt being used by Falco players, it's being used as a panic button if they didn't use jab. Rarely do you see it being used to poke which is how Anragon, Armando?, and DreeGon use Ftilt. Anti-airing with it is almost nonexistent and I don't think I've seen a Falco try to 2-frame with low Ftilt. Similar deal with Dtilt, except it's just not used because it's not the frame 7 Dtilt of Smash 4 with its disjointed range and apparently that makes the move worthless or nerfed beyond usability for most players. It still has decently low recovery at 20 frames and hitting it does a lot of damage and will kill at higher percents especially if sweetspotted. Throwing out Dtilt isn't risky unlike throwing out his Smashes. It doesn't have a lot of range and it's not as fast as it used to be, but it's safe. Osprey uses Dtilt a lot and punishes bad options on shield with it as well like what happened against Sol who kept hitting Osprey's shield with Little Mac's Side Smash and Osprey responded by dropping shield and Dtilting.

Speaking of things not being used a lot, Up Smash out of shield. Larry Lurr is the only one who does it while other Falco players don't or don't even use Up Smash much less Down Smash which also has leg invincibility, so challenging some recoveries that hit above the ledge would be safer with Down Smash. Not sure why when Fox, Falco, and Wolf have good out of shield Up Smashes. Fox's hits hard, Wolf's has good hitboxes, and Falco's has high active frames and leg invincibility.
 

Dcas

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Falco ftilt is great. Who doesn't use it?... It's better than jab in a ton of scenarios, and up-angled covers dumb jump-ins pretty surprisingly well against characters with small limbs.
From the footage ive seen from tournies, not even Larry Lurr uses that much. That move is only limited vs sword users who ill rather get in with a jab but besides those it works great in neutral. If you angle it down after 70, it will send people into a tech situation with a very short reaction time which could lead to some nice combos


Speaking of things not being used a lot, Up Smash out of shield. Larry Lurr is the only one who does it while other Falco players don't or don't even use Up Smash much less Down Smash which also has leg invincibility, so challenging some recoveries that hit above the ledge would be safer with Down Smash. Not sure why when Fox, Falco, and Wolf have good out of shield Up Smashes. Fox's hits hard, Wolf's has good hitboxes, and Falco's has high active frames and leg invincibility.
This.

It works impressively well when recieven an atack from above/in front of falco, its weird since one might think it will miss but it will connect for sure. Also, the disjoint in this move is kinda crazy, i have been able to challenge links dair, ganon´s dair, etc.
 

Justin Allen Goldschmidt

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Well, I guess all of this means that Falco still has plenty more for the top players to learn and optimize, and he'll only climb higher from here.
 

Ffamran

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It works impressively well when receiving an attack from above/in front of falco, it's weird since one might think it will miss but it will connect for sure. Also, the disjoint in this move is kinda crazy, i have been able to challenge links dair, ganon´s dair, etc.
It's not disjointed. As I already noted in my previous post, for both hits, Falco's kicking leg is invincible. What makes it more special or unique compared to other two or more hits moves is that there are no frame gaps and more relevant to the topic at hand, the invincibility lasts from the start of the first hit, frame 7, to the last active frame of the second kick, frame 18. In other words, its i-frames (invincibility frames) is equal to its active frames.

Each kick is active for 6 frames, so 12 total active frames and 12 total i-frames. That's a slight nerf for the second hit which used to be active for 8 frames, but that's only if you look at the frame data and not the animation, the move, itself. Find a video or check in-game frame by frame of Falco's Up Smash to see the animation more clearly and if you're checking it yourself, do it in training mode and turn on the invincibility viewer. The first kick, the tornado kick, moves slower than the second kick, the roundhouse. That makes sense considering you can't really "snap" with a tornado kick unlike with a roundhouse. The first kick takes 3 frames from frame 7 to frame 9 to reach above his head. If we imagine a circle or clock centered around Falco, the first kick starts around at 0 degrees or 3 o'clock and takes 3 frames to move to 90 degrees or 12 o'clock. After that, it stays in the general area for the remaining 3 active frames. The second kick, animation-wise, starts from around 0 degrees or 3 o'clock on frame 12 and immediately snaps to being above him, 90 degrees or 12 o'clock, on frame 13. If I'm looking at it right and frame 12 is part of the second hit, then it might be there like that for hitbox purposes. That is to say, the roundhouse can lead into itself. Regardless, because it barely moves, the roundhouse stays above Falco for 6 frames.

Essentially, imagine the Marthling's Up Smash and replace their sword with Falco's leg where instead of them putting a disjoint, a sword, above their heads, Falco is putting a protected hitbox through having invincibility on his kicking leg. Also, faster startup since the Chrom and Roy's Up Smash start on frame 12 and Lucina and Marth's start on frame 13.

Now, the reason why you would experience the same thing as with the Marthling's Up Smash or any Up Smash using a weapon like Link's and why Falco's Up Smash is a good anti-air / is "able to hit through" aerials is because of how priority works in Smash. Aerials cannot clank with other moves meaning against other aerials or ground moves, they will likely cause a trade. But if the other move the aerial is making contact with is a disjoint or has invincibility like Falco's Up Smash, then the aerial would probably lose or maybe cause a trade if it has enough range to reach through the disjointed or invincibility attack and connect with character's hurtbox. You can read more about priority here: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority.

Simply put, most aerials cannot challenge Falco's Up Smash; Falco's Up Smash can anti-air most aerials.
 

Dcas

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It's not disjointed. As I already noted in my previous post, for both hits, Falco's kicking leg is invincible. What makes it more special or unique compared to other two or more hits moves is that there are no frame gaps and more relevant to the topic at hand, the invincibility lasts from the start of the first hit, frame 7, to the last active frame of the second kick, frame 18. In other words, its i-frames (invincibility frames) is equal to its active frames.

Each kick is active for 6 frames, so 12 total active frames and 12 total i-frames. That's a slight nerf for the second hit which used to be active for 8 frames, but that's only if you look at the frame data and not the animation, the move, itself. Find a video or check in-game frame by frame of Falco's Up Smash to see the animation more clearly and if you're checking it yourself, do it in training mode and turn on the invincibility viewer. The first kick, the tornado kick, moves slower than the second kick, the roundhouse. That makes sense considering you can't really "snap" with a tornado kick unlike with a roundhouse. The first kick takes 3 frames from frame 7 to frame 9 to reach above his head. If we imagine a circle or clock centered around Falco, the first kick starts around at 0 degrees or 3 o'clock and takes 3 frames to move to 90 degrees or 12 o'clock. After that, it stays in the general area for the remaining 3 active frames. The second kick, animation-wise, starts from around 0 degrees or 3 o'clock on frame 12 and immediately snaps to being above him, 90 degrees or 12 o'clock, on frame 13. If I'm looking at it right and frame 12 is part of the second hit, then it might be there like that for hitbox purposes. That is to say, the roundhouse can lead into itself. Regardless, because it barely moves, the roundhouse stays above Falco for 6 frames.

Essentially, imagine the Marthling's Up Smash and replace their sword with Falco's leg where instead of them putting a disjoint, a sword, above their heads, Falco is putting a protected hitbox through having invincibility on his kicking leg. Also, faster startup since the Chrom and Roy's Up Smash start on frame 12 and Lucina and Marth's start on frame 13.

Now, the reason why you would experience the same thing as with the Marthling's Up Smash or any Up Smash using a weapon like Link's and why Falco's Up Smash is a good anti-air / is "able to hit through" aerials is because of how priority works in Smash. Aerials cannot clank with other moves meaning against other aerials or ground moves, they will likely cause a trade. But if the other move the aerial is making contact with is a disjoint or has invincibility like Falco's Up Smash, then the aerial would probably lose or maybe cause a trade if it has enough range to reach through the disjointed or invincibility attack and connect with character's hurtbox. You can read more about priority here: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority.

Simply put, most aerials cannot challenge Falco's Up Smash; Falco's Up Smash can anti-air most aerials.
Oh invincible it is, that explains why it wins it almost any situation. Which is great, seriously falco has some nice defensive tools. Still my ONLY grip with falco is that it lacks any tools to force an approach(beside camping lasers to very/slow characters), getting in can be troublesome and also, i noted that his aerials wont work on small characters or that got a small hurtbox, such as inkling, greninja, pikachu and pichu which i also think are his worst matchups.

Once in, falco can deal some nasty damage, here i am hoping for a buff in his dashing speed or a buff to lasers and we are gold.
 

Optihus9657

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As far as buffs are concerned, I am hoping for the following:
-Nair hitboxes that makes sense
-Bair having quicker start-up and slightly longer sweetspot active frames.
-Any sort of laser lag reduction
-Horizontal hitbox increase in either his forward or up smash.
ANY of these would drastically improve Falco. Sometimes it feels like he has to be insanely precise with his movement and combos. Almost too difficult. Dealing with online cheese can be unbearable at times.
 
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Dcas

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As far as buffs are concerned, I am hoping for the following:
-Nair hitboxes that makes sense
-Bair having quicker start-up and slightly longer sweetspot active frames.
-Any sort of laser lag reduction
-Horizontal hitbox increase in either his forward or up smash.
ANY of these would drastically improve Falco. Sometimes it feels like he has to be insanely precise with his movement and combos. Almost too difficult. Dealing with online cheese can be unbearable at times.
Yes to everything, ive noticed that my performance with falco online is mediocre compared to offline. While playing with buddies offline, ive noticed that the opening for good combos is kinda tight as well but at least is me being slow not the connection.

Sadly until they adress these issues, falco will be a solid mid tier that will struggle vs top tiers.
 

Krysco

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A number of my buff wishes for Sm4sh Falco came through in Ultimate like jab actually working, Blaster getting less endlag and dair getting some of it's old glory back. Not sure if utilt lost its 'dead' hitbox on the back.

As for buffs I'd still like to see:
- not needed but dtilt getting its disjoint it had in Sm4sh back or its startup back. The disjoint made no sense whatsoever but it was Falco's longest ranged ground move horizontally that wasn't a special.
- Less Blaster endlag and movement buffs of any kind are always nice.
- Phantasm either getting a stronger spike or getting hitboxes added more towards the end of the move. This was an issue in Sm4sh where the second half of the move was just movement without any hitbox coverage. Not 100% sure if it's been fixed in Ultimate as Sm4sh pretty much conditioned me to not bother using the move offensively.
- Reflector getting less endlag or more hitstun. I often used this move in Sm4sh to stop my opponent from doing whatever they wanted at the tip of its range be it charging a move or just movement in general or throwing out a hitbox in an attempt to stuff my approach. I've tried the same thing in Ultimate and I get hit sometimes even after landing the move. If it's not going to gimp like Fox's and not going to combo like Melee Falco's then I'd at least like the hitbox on Reflector to just disrupt safely.
- Give Fire Bird something, anything. Fire Fox goes further and Fire Wolf both hits harder and launches faster. Fire Bird was the harder hitting variant in Melee but they took that out in Brawl and never gave it back but didn't compensate it with anything else either.
- Bair getting less startup to be closer to its Sm4sh self.

I'd love to have the old lunging fsmash and one of the old usmashes back but that'd require animation tweaks which I doubt patches will do. Giving a disjoint to fsmash to give it the range it used to have would just look off and the same applies to giving usmash back its back hit. Other than that, I'm fine with his jab, ftilt, dash attack, throws and his aerials besides missing old bair.
 

ILOVESMASH

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- Reflector getting less endlag or more hitstun. I often used this move in Sm4sh to stop my opponent from doing whatever they wanted at the tip of its range be it charging a move or just movement in general or throwing out a hitbox in an attempt to stuff my approach. I've tried the same thing in Ultimate and I get hit sometimes even after landing the move. If it's not going to gimp like Fox's and not going to combo like Melee Falco's then I'd at least like the hitbox on Reflector to just disrupt safely.
One interesting idea I had for buffing Falco's Down B is to make it more like his Void Reflector from Smash 4, where it does serious vertical knockback and damage while also keeping its reflector properties. I doubt this will actually happen since it would drastically change the move, but it would be pretty fun to use as another low% combo finisher / extender from down throw and a threatening followup from up air (iirc, in Smash 4, you could do up air -> up air -> Void Reflector to kill characters super early).
 

Ffamran

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-Bair having quicker start-up and slightly longer sweetspot active frames.
- Bair getting less startup to be closer to its Sm4sh self.
The most you'd get from increasing the active frames for its clean hit would be 1. In Ultimate and in Smash 4, the clean hit was active for 2 frames. Smash 4 definitely needed that considering it was frame 4 on startup, but Ultimate you could argue for or against it having 3 active frames. The issue is that other Bairs have 2-3 active frames that are as fast or maybe slower than it, but Falco's has much higher knockback scaling than theirs letting it kill sooner and without needing to hit with certain hitboxes like Samus's Bair is good, but it has sweetspots and sourspots while Falco's you just need to time it by hitting with the first two frames. Another example: Fox and Falco share the same Bair startup again in Ultimate with the increased startup on Bair. It would not be farfetched to say that Fox would kill Falco for his Bair. The auto-cancel window wouldn't be as good, the angle would be different, 361 degrees instead of 30, and Fox would lose 1 active frame for landing a strong hit, but Falco's Bair is stronger than Fox's, has about the same range, and it has a late hit that Fox would probably be able to abuse considering his ground speed.

Lowered startup might not happen either. It's definitely not going back to frame 4 considering Ultimate's universal frame 3 jump. Frame 7 would be pushing it, but then I'd ask for buffs to other Bairs in general.

What might make Falco's Bair indirectly better would be to lower his hop height. This would let him use Bair lower than he does now by relying on a shorter hop height rather than pure startup. The problem with this is that unless they change his auto-cancel windows, Dair might lose its ability to be auto-canceled from a hop and auto-canceling Uair and Bair would be tighter. Dair's autocancel window is before frame 4 and after frame 29 where Falco's hop air time is 32 frames.

-Any sort of laser lag reduction
- Less Blaster endlag and movement buffs of any kind are always nice.
Falco's grounded Blaster has the same recovery as Wolf's at 34 frames. In the air, it has 32 recovery frames. So, what makes it not as potent of a projectile as Wolf's despite having faster startup as Falco's fires on frame 8 on the ground and 7 in the air while Wolf fires on frame 16? Besides hitbox size, Falco's lasers have very low set knockback. I don't know what it is in Ultimate, but in Smash 4, it was 2. In Brawl, it was 3, and in Melee, it was 5. Brawl Wolf's had 20 set knockback for the close and long ranged hits of the bolt and 24 for the mid ranged hit of the bolt. Ultimate increased the damage of the bolt, but its knockback values are still a mysterious. Basically, Wolf's bolts do more hitstun in addition to damage. Brawl Wolf frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/wolfs-frame-data-wip.319745/.

I could see them being okay with increasing the set knockback to around 5, but the issue with Falco's Blaster is that it can fire continuously unlike with other projectiles where you have to go through the entire animation again. Personally, I don't know why it can still do this since it's dumb when you think about it for someone to be able to sit there and fire projectiles like that in a fighting game. At least Fox's doesn't do hit stun, so he needs to be able to fire over and over or do a lot of damage with each hit, but Falco's is more or less a regular projectile. Basically, you'd see a lot more complaints about Falco's Blaster and there's already a lot of complaints about projectiles in general for fighting games.

Slightly lowered recovery could be fine. In his character trailer which was an older build of the game, it looked like ground Blaster had 32 recovery frames instead of 34. The laser's hitbox also had a 4 tag, so it might have done 4% instead of staying as 3%, the damage it always did since Melee: https://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-falco-gameplay-general-discussion.455401/#post-22178839.

- not needed but dtilt getting its disjoint it had in Sm4sh back or its startup back. The disjoint made no sense whatsoever but it was Falco's longest ranged ground move horizontally that wasn't a special.
The increased range is not going to happen. The developers seem keen on matching hitboxes with animations this time around and for the most part, making hitboxes more modest than in the previous games. Smash 4 Falco Dtilt was just absurd since a third of its range came from its disjoint and it was frame 7 on startup. The move itself is a natural disjoint because it uses Falco's tail, but in Smash 4, it literally had an invisible hitbox. You could make a pass for the Side Smashes of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in Smash 4 because the weren't fast at frame 19, but not for Falco's Dtilt.

Falco's Dtilt was already a strong move since Melee where its fast startup, high damage, and strong knockback was contained by its shorter range than Fox's. Brawl screwed up Falco's Dtilt by not adjusting its knockback to fit Brawl, mainly gravity affecting vertical knockback now, so if it and other vertical kill moves were as strong as they were in Melee, they'd likely be too powerful. Smash 4 brought it closer to Melee, but made the tipper sourspot's hitbox reach so far and for whatever reason, did the opposite with Fox's Dtilt where its hitbox didn't even reach Fox's tail tip. That was the breaking point; removing a weakness to balance its strengths. It didn't need that kind of range and especially a fraudulent one. Removing the invisible range was all they needed to do for it to be fine in Ultimate, but nope, they increased the startup too. I can sort of see why since Falco's Dtilt, shorter range or not, is just better than Fox's, but they could have buffed Fox's and Wolf's for that matter with faster startup, lowered recovery, more damage, knockback, or whatever instead of touching Falco's to keep theirs on par with his.

Giving it back its frame 7 startup would mean so much for Falco since right now, the go-to launcher is Utilt which not only is twice as fast on startup, but actually combos into things because of its knockback. Dtilt can setup for followups, it does a lot of damage, and is good for poking and hitting shields because of its high damage and low recovery, but it's just not worth it for the average Falco player. At least not as it used to be for Falco players.

I'd love to have the old lunging fsmash and one of the old usmashes back but that'd require animation tweaks which I doubt patches will do. Giving a disjoint to fsmash to give it the range it used to have would just look off and the same applies to giving usmash back its back hit. Other than that, I'm fine with his jab, ftilt, dash attack, throws and his aerials besides missing old bair.
I doubt they're going to do animation changes. Other fighting games do it, but very rarely. Anyway, Up Smash's issue with hitting short characters or characters in a low profile could be fixed by giving it a hitbox below Falco's kicking leg and close to his body or increasing the size of the hitbox downward. That's the only issue with the new Up Smash that you could change since Smash 4 Up Smash was a different move in animation. In other words, hitting behind him and stuff like that would work without noticeable disjoints.

While they can't really increase the range, they could lower the recovery on it. Falco's Up Smash stands as one of the most protected Up Smashes because of its leg invincibility and how long it's active, but its range is very specific as it's focused on hitting above him. This is a very narrow point of view as I'm ignoring other characters, but compared to Fox's and Wolf's Up Smashes, its range is harsh. Fox's looks like it has further reach in Ultimate where part of it might be increased hitbox sizes by a little, moved hitboxes, or animation changes since his Up Smash does have a new animation in Ultimate. Wolf's has good horizontal range then good vertical range as it starts out as a breakdance kick to him shooting upwards from a handstand. It's kind of like a Down Smash first then an Up Smash. Wolf's Up Smash isn't the fastest at frame 13, but it has low recovery at 25 frames; its total frames is 47. Fox's has the highest at 45 frames of recovery of which its total frames is 56, but it hits the hardest. Falco's has 32 recovery frames which is still good, but considering its shorter overall range, it might be okay if it were lower like around 28 frames which is Brawl Falco's Up Smash recovery and Ultimate Mario's Up Smash recovery. The obvious problem with this is that Falco would be able to spam a frame 7, 12 active frames, 12 i-frames Up Smash.

Side Smash's biggest issue is that it's just another Side Smash compared to the defining Up Smash of Fox and Down Smash of Wolf. At this point, all of Wolf's Smashes are defining for him. Their strongest Smashes are not only very powerful, but fast. With Ultimate Wolf's Down Smash in terms of startup. frame 14, it's not fast, but in recovery it's fast at 22 frames. Falco's Side Smash is frame 17 on startup with a late hit on frame 20 which lasts 1 frame making and with its 48 total frames, gives it 29 recovery frames. The recovery is all right if not good for a Smash, but that's all it really has and i you're talking about Side Smashes with low recovery, Meta Knight and Wolf have Falco beat at 18 frames and 19 frames, respectively. Yes, Wolf's frame 20 Side Smash has 10 less recovery frames than Falco's. It can't be angled, but it's still strong and can mess with people trying to punish it. Meta Knight's is arguably better because he uses a sword and its charge frame is frame 21 instead of frame 7 even if it only has 1 active frame as is 4 frames slower on startup. In terms of kill power, it's strong, but not ridiculously strong like Ultimate Wolf's Down Smash, it can't be confirmed like Fox's Up Smash, and for having higher recovery, but using a sword instead, it's not as fast as the Marthlings', Pits', and Samuses' Side Smashes. There's a reason why people joked about Lucina being Side Smash the character when she and Marth have frame 10 Side Smashes. The Pits' and Samuses' Side Smashes are also frame 10 and Chrom and Roy's Side Smash are frame 13.

Making Falco's Side Smash faster is going to be tricky since they would have to reanimate it or use a frame speed multiplier as much as I would like for Falco to have a Side Smash with 20-ish recovery frames if it kept its startup or being frame 12 on startup like in Melee when it was Fox's Side Smash in animation. Power would be easier by having it do more damage or knockback.

- Phantasm either getting a stronger spike or getting hitboxes added more towards the end of the move. This was an issue in Sm4sh where the second half of the move was just movement without any hitbox coverage. Not 100% sure if it's been fixed in Ultimate as Sm4sh pretty much conditioned me to not bother using the move offensively.
So, thing with Falco Phantasm is that it's the largest horizontal spike in the game. It's broken on paper, so making it stronger is kind of hard to do without actually breaking it since in practice, hitting any kind of spike or move that's frame +18 is not easy to do without a setup or confirm. The other thing is that Fox's Fox Illusion gained what I feel was unnecessary startup, from 21 in the previous games to 25, since Ultimate removed the ability for Illusion and Phantasm to pass through shields. Falco's kept its frame 18 startup even though you can't really hit with it since the hitbox starts behind and on him, but it's really rough for Fox to recover in general because of the increased startup. I get it, Fox is supposed to be a glass cannon, but it seems a bit extreme. Anyway, I feel like the best they could do for Phantasm is to let it and other moves that can't anymore or couldn't before pass through shields.

As for hitboxes, it hits around 4/5s of its travel now instead of 1/2. There's a part at the end of Phantasm that doesn't hit in Ultimate, around when he stops, but it's not as bad as in Smash 4 where the last half of its travel had not hitbox.

- Reflector getting less endlag or more hitstun. I often used this move in Sm4sh to stop my opponent from doing whatever they wanted at the tip of its range be it charging a move or just movement in general or throwing out a hitbox in an attempt to stuff my approach. I've tried the same thing in Ultimate and I get hit sometimes even after landing the move. If it's not going to gimp like Fox's and not going to combo like Melee Falco's then I'd at least like the hitbox on Reflector to just disrupt safely.
They already lowered the recovery on Reflector in Ultimate. Smash 4 Reflector had 37 recovery frames and Brawl had 39 recovery frames which was the same as Melee Reflector, but you could jump cancel it on frame 4, so its normal recovery wasn't really experienced like with Blaster in Melee and Brawl. The issue with Falco's Reflector is everything about it. It's the fastest reflect at frame 1, it has good horizontal range, and it has transcendent priority as an attack. This is while being a frame 5 attack with 10 active frames and 33 recovery frames. Its high active frames are part of its recovery, but regardless, I don't think they want it to have even lower recovery. That said, I could see them shaving 3 frames off of it, but then again... It's complicated. Game balancing is very complicated.

- Give Fire Bird something, anything. Fire Fox goes further and Fire Wolf both hits harder and launches faster. Fire Bird was the harder hitting variant in Melee but they took that out in Brawl and never gave it back but didn't compensate it with anything else either.
This move is complete dog**** and I don't know why they have kept it like this since Brawl. Maybe Ultimate has better linking loop hits, but its inherent issues just make it a worse version of Fire Fox, Fire Wolf, and Ridley's Wing Blitz. Compared to Fire Fox, it has shorter travel distance, I think it still has slower travel speed, and I'm not sure, but at least in Smash 4 and Brawl, it locked Falco's air speed when freefalling to a much lower speed than Fox's. This is all while having the same launch frame of 43 or 44. As an attack, its loop hits send people out while Fox's sends people in. Being able to do up to 33% means nothing when it can't kill and it's inconsistent which it kind of needs to be since that would be dumb. Fox's Fire Fox can kill with the launch hit and the late hit at least has decent knockback unlike Falco's where you need to hit with the last hit, so if they fall out, they could stay closer to Falco unlike with Fox where they're going to be sent flying away.

Compared to Fire Wolf in Brawl, Fire Bird has a charging hitbox, but has the same travel distance and twice the startup to launch than Fire Wolf. In Ultimate, Fire Wolf lost some distance, but gained kill power with its increased knockback and its startup was decreased from 23 frames to 18. Fire Wolf's shorted travel distance means nothing for a character with one of the fastest air speeds and Fire Wolf having fast startup, same startup as Wolf Flash and Falco Phantasm, making it harder to react or get to Wolf if he's using either recovery move.

Compared to Ridley's Wing Blitz, Ridley's has less angles and no charging hitbox, but it hits harder and launches faster in general. Going up with Wing Blitz has a startup of frame 37, horizontally is frame 39, and down is frame 40.

Fire Bird needs to be either a recovery or an actual damage move than the mess it is now. Fast Fire Bird from Smash 4 would have been perfect for just recovering at the cost of actual distance as it gave Falco a bunch of momentum after it which they could just remove and it wouldn't really matter. That thing had about the same startup as Falco Phantasm from what I remember. They could even go as far and make it have no hitboxes like Flying Fox and having less travel distance than Fire Wolf and that would be fine. All that would matter is Falco can shoot towards a ledge faster. As an actual damage move, 64 Fire Fox/Melee Fire Bird. No charging hits, make the launch hit have ridiculously high knockback of some sort or do a ton of damage and there you go.

I'd take Little Mac's aerial Rising Uppercut and the inability to ledgesnap over Fire Bird on Falco. **** wouldn't have any vertical lift, but at least it'd be faster and Falco could use it from a confirm or something.
 
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Krysco

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The most you'd get from increasing the active frames for its clean hit would be 1. In Ultimate and in Smash 4, the clean hit was active for 2 frames. Smash 4 definitely needed that considering it was frame 4 on startup, but Ultimate you could argue for or against it having 3 active frames. The issue is that other Bairs have 2-3 active frames that are as fast or maybe slower than it, but Falco's has much higher knockback scaling than theirs letting it kill sooner and without needing to hit with certain hitboxes like Samus's Bair is good, but it has sweetspots and sourspots while Falco's you just need to time it by hitting with the first two frames. Another example: Fox and Falco share the same Bair startup again in Ultimate with the increased startup on Bair. It would not be farfetched to say that Fox would kill Falco for his Bair. The auto-cancel window wouldn't be as good, the angle would be different, 361 degrees instead of 30, and Fox would lose 1 active frame for landing a strong hit, but Falco's Bair is stronger than Fox's, has about the same range, and it has a late hit that Fox would probably be able to abuse considering his ground speed.

Lowered startup might not happen either. It's definitely not going back to frame 4 considering Ultimate's universal frame 3 jump. Frame 7 would be pushing it, but then I'd ask for buffs to other Bairs in general.

What might make Falco's Bair indirectly better would be to lower his hop height. This would let him use Bair lower than he does now by relying on a shorter hop height rather than pure startup. The problem with this is that unless they change his auto-cancel windows, Dair might lose its ability to be auto-canceled from a hop and auto-canceling Uair and Bair would be tighter. Dair's autocancel window is before frame 4 and after frame 29 where Falco's hop air time is 32 frames.



Falco's grounded Blaster has the same recovery as Wolf's at 34 frames. In the air, it has 32 recovery frames. So, what makes it not as potent of a projectile as Wolf's despite having faster startup as Falco's fires on frame 8 on the ground and 7 in the air while Wolf fires on frame 16? Besides hitbox size, Falco's lasers have very low set knockback. I don't know what it is in Ultimate, but in Smash 4, it was 2. In Brawl, it was 3, and in Melee, it was 5. Brawl Wolf's had 20 set knockback for the close and long ranged hits of the bolt and 24 for the mid ranged hit of the bolt. Ultimate increased the damage of the bolt, but its knockback values are still a mysterious. Basically, Wolf's bolts do more hitstun in addition to damage. Brawl Wolf frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/wolfs-frame-data-wip.319745/.

I could see them being okay with increasing the set knockback to around 5, but the issue with Falco's Blaster is that it can fire continuously unlike with other projectiles where you have to go through the entire animation again. Personally, I don't know why it can still do this since it's dumb when you think about it for someone to be able to sit there and fire projectiles like that in a fighting game. At least Fox's doesn't do hit stun, so he needs to be able to fire over and over or do a lot of damage with each hit, but Falco's is more or less a regular projectile. Basically, you'd see a lot more complaints about Falco's Blaster and there's already a lot of complaints about projectiles in general for fighting games.

Slightly lowered recovery could be fine. In his character trailer which was an older build of the game, it looked like ground Blaster had 32 recovery frames instead of 34. The laser's hitbox also had a 4 tag, so it might have done 4% instead of staying as 3%, the damage it always did since Melee: https://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-falco-gameplay-general-discussion.455401/#post-22178839.



The increased range is not going to happen. The developers seem keen on matching hitboxes with animations this time around and for the most part, making hitboxes more modest than in the previous games. Smash 4 Falco Dtilt was just absurd since a third of its range came from its disjoint and it was frame 7 on startup. The move itself is a natural disjoint because it uses Falco's tail, but in Smash 4, it literally had an invisible hitbox. You could make a pass for the Side Smashes of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in Smash 4 because the weren't fast at frame 19, but not for Falco's Dtilt.

Falco's Dtilt was already a strong move since Melee where its fast startup, high damage, and strong knockback was contained by its shorter range than Fox's. Brawl screwed up Falco's Dtilt by not adjusting its knockback to fit Brawl, mainly gravity affecting vertical knockback now, so if it and other vertical kill moves were as strong as they were in Melee, they'd likely be too powerful. Smash 4 brought it closer to Melee, but made the tipper sourspot's hitbox reach so far and for whatever reason, did the opposite with Fox's Dtilt where its hitbox didn't even reach Fox's tail tip. That was the breaking point; removing a weakness to balance its strengths. It didn't need that kind of range and especially a fraudulent one. Removing the invisible range was all they needed to do for it to be fine in Ultimate, but nope, they increased the startup too. I can sort of see why since Falco's Dtilt, shorter range or not, is just better than Fox's, but they could have buffed Fox's and Wolf's for that matter with faster startup, lowered recovery, more damage, knockback, or whatever instead of touching Falco's to keep theirs on par with his.

Giving it back its frame 7 startup would mean so much for Falco since right now, the go-to launcher is Utilt which not only is twice as fast on startup, but actually combos into things because of its knockback. Dtilt can setup for followups, it does a lot of damage, and is good for poking and hitting shields because of its high damage and low recovery, but it's just not worth it for the average Falco player. At least not as it used to be for Falco players.


I doubt they're going to do animation changes. Other fighting games do it, but very rarely. Anyway, Up Smash's issue with hitting short characters or characters in a low profile could be fixed by giving it a hitbox below Falco's kicking leg and close to his body or increasing the size of the hitbox downward. That's the only issue with the new Up Smash that you could change since Smash 4 Up Smash was a different move in animation. In other words, hitting behind him and stuff like that would work without noticeable disjoints.

While they can't really increase the range, they could lower the recovery on it. Falco's Up Smash stands as one of the most protected Up Smashes because of its leg invincibility and how long it's active, but its range is very specific as it's focused on hitting above him. This is a very narrow point of view as I'm ignoring other characters, but compared to Fox's and Wolf's Up Smashes, its range is harsh. Fox's looks like it has further reach in Ultimate where part of it might be increased hitbox sizes by a little, moved hitboxes, or animation changes since his Up Smash does have a new animation in Ultimate. Wolf's has good horizontal range then good vertical range as it starts out as a breakdance kick to him shooting upwards from a handstand. It's kind of like a Down Smash first then an Up Smash. Wolf's Up Smash isn't the fastest at frame 13, but it has low recovery at 25 frames; its total frames is 47. Fox's has the highest at 45 frames of recovery of which its total frames is 56, but it hits the hardest. Falco's has 32 recovery frames which is still good, but considering its shorter overall range, it might be okay if it were lower like around 28 frames which is Brawl Falco's Up Smash recovery and Ultimate Mario's Up Smash recovery. The obvious problem with this is that Falco would be able to spam a frame 7, 12 active frames, 12 i-frames Up Smash.

Side Smash's biggest issue is that it's just another Side Smash compared to the defining Up Smash of Fox and Down Smash of Wolf. At this point, all of Wolf's Smashes are defining for him. Their strongest Smashes are not only very powerful, but fast. With Ultimate Wolf's Down Smash in terms of startup. frame 14, it's not fast, but in recovery it's fast at 22 frames. Falco's Side Smash is frame 17 on startup with a late hit on frame 20 which lasts 1 frame making and with its 48 total frames, gives it 29 recovery frames. The recovery is all right if not good for a Smash, but that's all it really has and i you're talking about Side Smashes with low recovery, Meta Knight and Wolf have Falco beat at 18 frames and 19 frames, respectively. Yes, Wolf's frame 20 Side Smash has 10 less recovery frames than Falco's. It can't be angled, but it's still strong and can mess with people trying to punish it. Meta Knight's is arguably better because he uses a sword and its charge frame is frame 21 instead of frame 7 even if it only has 1 active frame as is 4 frames slower on startup. In terms of kill power, it's strong, but not ridiculously strong like Ultimate Wolf's Down Smash, it can't be confirmed like Fox's Up Smash, and for having higher recovery, but using a sword instead, it's not as fast as the Marthlings', Pits', and Samuses' Side Smashes. There's a reason why people joked about Lucina being Side Smash the character when she and Marth have frame 10 Side Smashes. The Pits' and Samuses' Side Smashes are also frame 10 and Chrom and Roy's Side Smash are frame 13.

Making Falco's Side Smash faster is going to be tricky since they would have to reanimate it or use a frame speed multiplier as much as I would like for Falco to have a Side Smash with 20-ish recovery frames if it kept its startup or being frame 12 on startup like in Melee when it was Fox's Side Smash in animation. Power would be easier by having it do more damage or knockback.


So, thing with Falco Phantasm is that it's the largest horizontal spike in the game. It's broken on paper, so making it stronger is kind of hard to do without actually breaking it since in practice, hitting any kind of spike or move that's frame +18 is not easy to do without a setup or confirm. The other thing is that Fox's Fox Illusion gained what I feel was unnecessary startup, from 21 in the previous games to 25, since Ultimate removed the ability for Illusion and Phantasm to pass through shields. Falco's kept its frame 18 startup even though you can't really hit with it since the hitbox starts behind and on him, but it's really rough for Fox to recover in general because of the increased startup. I get it, Fox is supposed to be a glass cannon, but it seems a bit extreme. Anyway, I feel like the best they could do for Phantasm is to let it and other moves that can't anymore or couldn't before pass through shields.

As for hitboxes, it hits around 4/5s of its travel now instead of 1/2. There's a part at the end of Phantasm that doesn't hit in Ultimate, around when he stops, but it's not as bad as in Smash 4 where the last half of its travel had not hitbox.


They already lowered the recovery on Reflector in Ultimate. Smash 4 Reflector had 37 recovery frames and Brawl had 39 recovery frames which was the same as Melee Reflector, but you could jump cancel it on frame 4, so its normal recovery wasn't really experienced like with Blaster in Melee and Brawl. The issue with Falco's Reflector is everything about it. It's the fastest reflect at frame 1, it has good horizontal range, and it has transcendent priority as an attack. This is while being a frame 5 attack with 10 active frames and 33 recovery frames. Its high active frames are part of its recovery, but regardless, I don't think they want it to have even lower recovery. That said, I could see them shaving 3 frames off of it, but then again... It's complicated. Game balancing is very complicated.


This move is complete dog**** and I don't know why they have kept it like this since Brawl. Maybe Ultimate has better linking loop hits, but its inherent issues just make it a worse version of Fire Fox, Fire Wolf, and Ridley's Wing Blitz. Compared to Fire Fox, it has shorter travel distance, I think it still has slower travel speed, and I'm not sure, but at least in Smash 4 and Brawl, it locked Falco's air speed when freefalling to a much lower speed than Fox's. This is all while having the same launch frame of 43 or 44. As an attack, its loop hits send people out while Fox's sends people in. Being able to do up to 33% means nothing when it can't kill and it's inconsistent which it kind of needs to be since that would be dumb. Fox's Fire Fox can kill with the launch hit and the late hit at least has decent knockback unlike Falco's where you need to hit with the last hit, so if they fall out, they could stay closer to Falco unlike with Fox where they're going to be sent flying away.

Compared to Fire Wolf in Brawl, Fire Bird has a charging hitbox, but has the same travel distance and twice the startup to launch than Fire Wolf. In Ultimate, Fire Wolf lost some distance, but gained kill power with its increased knockback and its startup was decreased from 23 frames to 18. Fire Wolf's shorted travel distance means nothing for a character with one of the fastest air speeds and Fire Wolf having fast startup, same startup as Wolf Flash and Falco Phantasm, making it harder to react or get to Wolf if he's using either recovery move.

Compared to Ridley's Wing Blitz, Ridley's has less angles and no charging hitbox, but it hits harder and launches faster in general. Going up with Wing Blitz has a startup of frame 37, horizontally is frame 39, and down is frame 40.

Fire Bird needs to be either a recovery or an actual damage move than the mess it is now. Fast Fire Bird from Smash 4 would have been perfect for just recovering at the cost of actual distance as it gave Falco a bunch of momentum after it which they could just remove and it wouldn't really matter. That thing had about the same startup as Falco Phantasm from what I remember. They could even go as far and make it have no hitboxes like Flying Fox and having less travel distance than Fire Wolf and that would be fine. All that would matter is Falco can shoot towards a ledge faster. As an actual damage move, 64 Fire Fox/Melee Fire Bird. No charging hits, make the launch hit have ridiculously high knockback of some sort or do a ton of damage and there you go.

I'd take Little Mac's aerial Rising Uppercut and the inability to ledgesnap over Fire Bird on Falco. **** wouldn't have any vertical lift, but at least it'd be faster and Falco could use it from a confirm or something.
Most of the buff ideas I mentioned is mostly just wanting what was in the previous game which a number of playerbases are going through as well. Sheik's wanting more combo friendly tilts, Mario's wanting the old dthrow back, Rosalina's wanting auto spacing jabs and the old tethered Luma power, Mewtwo's wanting the old dtilt and air dodge etc. I'm sure I'll get used to most of the changes Falco's gone through as I play him more. Been focusing on Ridley, Sonic and Isabelle mostly so I gotta see about using Falco and Chroy more.

Was unaware of the Phantasm hitboxes being changed. Glad to hear they were though. Might not even need a better spike if the later hitboxes allow Falco to do similar stuff to what Fox was able to do like side b into uair.

Was also unaware of the frame data for Ridley's up special angles. The angles on his are a pain to work with since he can't go up and diagonal like the spacies can but his does have more power than Falco's. Not sure about the power comparison to Fire Wolf though I'm pretty sure Ridley's has a bigger hitbox to actually cover him compared to the spacies.

The oddest part about Blaster to me is how it's just kinda a regular projectile without many outstanding qualities. It doesn't get affected by gravity, doesn't do large amounts of damage, doesn't kill outside of gimps, can't be charged or controlled, can't be followed by Falco like Villager's side special for example, can't be angled or shield cancelled and there's no additional hitbox or windbox to go with it. The qualities it does have over other projectiles is what you mentioned with it being able to be constantly fired which doesn't matter too much and the different frame data it has in the air. The best scenario I can see these 2 qualities having is Falco sending someone offstage and then jumping up and firing towards them. His high jump may allow the first laser to cover a high recovery while any following laser could hit them if they go for a low recovery due to Falco's high fall speed. Even then, the most you're getting is a bit of percent and maybe a snagged double jump. There'd also be some MU specific benefits like hitting an Ike that's charging Quick Draw. I'd also only see this being too useful if you sent an opponent from one end of the stage to the other since if you sent them offstage near you, you could just try to go off to edge guard seeing as how 4 out of Falco's 5 aerials work well for edgeguarding and his combination of fast fall speed and high jump also aids with covering recovery options. That's also MU specific I suppose.

Oh and his lasers are transcendent too so I gets that's not a common quality among projectiles.

Didn't know about the Reflector cooldown buff from Sm4sh to Ultimate but as I said, Falco is still able to get hit after landing the move. Probably has to do with the overall movement buffs across the board and the ability to do any attack out of a dash along with any startup buffs. To be more specific, I first noticed it when playing against my buddy's Marth. He's got disjoints to help him hit Falco too but that's why I'd like Reflector to be more safe, so Falco at least has something to help against disjoints when he's in that uncomfortable midrange. Otherwise, going with the whole preferring the air thing they've got with Falco compared to Fox, it'd be neat if they made the move behave differently when landed in the air. Making it a combo tool or a juggle tool for example. Having it send horizontally or be a spike would be pretty ridiculous though and plus the whole point of Fox's Reflector hitbox is to gimp offstage opponents, with the developers going as far as to add an ingame tip specifically mentioning how you can shine gimp.

Fire Bird...yeah, they gotta do something for it eventually. Fox has the distance, Wolf has the power and start up, Ridley has power and I believe bigger hitboxes. The only things I can think of to give Fire Bird that wouldn't just be taking some of those qualities from the others is disjoints like what K. Rool's has (would require a change of the fire's position for it to visually make sense) or landing lag. It'd be pretty neat if Falco had incredibly low landing lag after Fire Bird much like in Melee. Would make the option of recovering high more favourable and even just in juggling scenarios, throwing off the opponent by halting Falco's momentum with the start up (assuming they didn't just smack him during it) and then angling it either towards them for an aggressive option or away for a defensive one with the means to follow up quickly after. This would also somewhat fix the issue you mentioned where if they don't get hit by the final hitbox, they don't get launched away far enough for Falco to be safe.
 

Dcas

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They wont give Falco autocancel lasers as much as id like to, people will complain a lot. I think more hitstun or doing them similar to yl arrows would make wonders.

Reflector is a great move, it just needs less ending lag IMO.

Bair is better in this game than smash 4 as for utility. It lingers longer and deals the same knockback, at least i prefer this iteration to smash 4.

The main problem with falco are his smashes and the hitboxes of his aerials. The smashes are almost all useless except fsmash for a hard read, usmash hitbox is too wonky and is just better to utilt 90% of the time, down smash hitbox is too small to edgeguard, just use dtilt.

Falco basically needs to make falling aerials to set up his game eiither up air, nair, dair or fair and all of those hitboxes are too small, vs small characters or even some medium sized, falco struggles a lot.

So what falco URGENTLY needs is to get at least ONE smash that is great, increase the hitboxes of dair/nair and mobility buffs to his aerial/running speed. Like for real, how comes pit is faster? Mario is faster? Ken is faster? Luigi? Lucario? ROB? Kirby? Thats the thing that seriously triggers me the most about falco,
 
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ILOVESMASH

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Bair is better in this game than smash 4 as for utility. It lingers longer and deals the same knockback, at least i prefer this iteration to smash 4.
The new bair actually lingers for the same among of time as the one in Smash 4, since the hitbox duration and animation length is the exact same.
 

Dcas

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The new bair actually lingers for the same among of time as the one in Smash 4, since the hitbox duration and animation length is the exact same.
Well then, there must be something different , either the range, the weakspot or something, since i feel it lasts longer the downside is that since it comes later, im not able to hit smaller characters.
 

Ffamran

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Was also unaware of the frame data for Ridley's up special angles. The angles on his are a pain to work with since he can't go up and diagonal like the spacies can but his does have more power than Falco's. Not sure about the power comparison to Fire Wolf though I'm pretty sure Ridley's has a bigger hitbox to actually cover him compared to the spacies.
Frame data so far outside of Japan is spotty and not in a poor quality or shady kind of way, but it's here and there unlike Japan where there's a complete list. It makes sense, though, because the Japanese spreadsheet is not only being worked on by people who know how to look into and read the game files, but that it's being worked on by people. As far as I know and what I'm feeling from his tweets, Kurogane Hammer does frame data on his own for the most part while his friends work on other aspects for his site and for frame data, so shield stun and knockback calculations and such. That's fine if you have a lot of time, but he also wants to put as much of a complete frame data page up as possible meaning he is also looking into knockback and hit angles. Those values weren't found until recently and in general, some of them, especially for specials like projectiles, are difficult to find. He has made some exceptions like with Wolf who he is glad is back in Ultimate, but later pages are being added as close to complete as possible for him. Zapp Branniglenn does his own frame data sheets as well, but he only counted frames which is fine as it's early on and we did need some kind of reference to go off of whenever early patches hit and that happened already with 2.0.0. And then you have stuff floating around on the web, but are not being archived as well like there's knockback and hit angle data on Pichu's tilts, but it's only through a tweet as far as I know. Also, as far as I know, the most complete Zelda frame data is only on Smashboards and done by our resident Zelda moderator, BJN39.

Anyway, Ridley's frame data in terms of frames and damage were known for a while as with most of the other characters. It's his knockback and hit angle values that I recently learned were recorded. Same with Sheik.
So, the people working on the Japanese spreadsheet have started adding hit angle, knockback, and shield damage values. Of note, Ridley's and Sheik's since Kurogane's site doesn't have their data yet. Both the Japanese spreadsheet and Kurogane's site have Richter's data, but not Simon for whatever reason on the Japanese spreadsheet.

Ridley's page: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=899732416.

Sheik's page: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1204670300.
On the subject of the power difference between Fire Wolf and Wing Blitz. Fire Wolf's finishing hit have high knockback growth and although it's not listed on Kurogane's site, I think its power is dependent on if it's being used on the ground or in the air just like in Brawl. Of the two, one of them has a base damage of 5.0% with 60 base knockback and 148 growth and the other has a base damage of 6.0% with 60 base and 136 growth. For reference, the clean hit of Falco's Bair has a knockback growth of 130, but its base damage is 13.0%. Both have the same hit angle of 361 degrees. The damage might seem low, but the finishing hit of Fire Wolf can send people flying because of its high knockback growth. I remember a tweet saying that it used to have different knockback values where it was stronger, so probably lower base, but even higher growth. This would have correlated with people's impressions of playing Wolf for the demo of the game and being surprised at how early Fire Wolf killed.

With Ridley, its values are basically like a Smash attack's; high damage, average to high base knockback, and knockback growth lower than 100 because Smashes often do +15%, so "normal" scaling would be bonkers with higher damage-dealing moves. The horizontal values aren't listed or weren't found, so I don't know about them. Damage-wise, they have a base damage value of 16.0%. Going up, its base damage is 18.0% and it has a hit angle of 64 degrees, 85 base, and 46 growth. The knockback growth looks low, but remember that it does 18% and it moves upward, so being caught at the apex of its lift would be the worst thing that could happen to his opponent, especially if they were decently high up for some reason. Going down, it has a base damage of 15.0%, 295 or 44 degree hit angle, 50 or 85 base, and 75 or 50 growth. I'm guessing that either it might be hitbox dependent or if it's being used on an airborne or grounded target. That is to say, the 295 spike hit would have 50 base and 75 growth while the 44 degree hit would have an 85 base and a 50 growth. It also has a landing hitbox which none of the Star Fox character's Up Specials do.

The oddest part about Blaster to me is how it's just kinda a regular projectile without many outstanding qualities. It doesn't get affected by gravity, doesn't do large amounts of damage, doesn't kill outside of gimps, can't be charged or controlled, can't be followed by Falco like Villager's side special for example, can't be angled or shield cancelled and there's no additional hitbox or windbox to go with it. The qualities it does have over other projectiles is what you mentioned with it being able to be constantly fired which doesn't matter too much and the different frame data it has in the air. The best scenario I can see these 2 qualities having is Falco sending someone offstage and then jumping up and firing towards them. His high jump may allow the first laser to cover a high recovery while any following laser could hit them if they go for a low recovery due to Falco's high fall speed. Even then, the most you're getting is a bit of percent and maybe a snagged double jump. There'd also be some MU specific benefits like hitting an Ike that's charging Quick Draw. I'd also only see this being too useful if you sent an opponent from one end of the stage to the other since if you sent them offstage near you, you could just try to go off to edge guard seeing as how 4 out of Falco's 5 aerials work well for edgeguarding and his combination of fast fall speed and high jump also aids with covering recovery options. That's also MU specific I suppose.

Oh and his lasers are transcendent too so I gets that's not a common quality among projectiles.
You did list its special properties, though. Transcendent priority isn't found on many projectiles and for whatever reason with it probably because they're using laser guns, all three Star Fox characters have it. Makes sense for Fox since it'd be annoying for him to have his lasers clank with anything while being incapable of doing knockback. Being able to fire continuously is something only Bayonetta sort of with Bullet Arts, Falco, Fox, Mega Man up to three times with his lemons (jab, Ftilt, and Nair), and Mii Gunner with Laser Blaze? can do. Also, Bowser and Charizard can keep their fire breaths out indefinitely, but the hitbox shrinks.

With Falco, it takes if I'm accounting for the frames correctly, +25 frames to fire again on the ground and +23 frames to fire again in the air. Falco choosing to fire, stop, and then fire would have the normal recovery of 34 on the ground and 32 in the air. Most projectiles are like that where they have around 30 recovery frames. For startup, it varies like the Belmonts' Axe is 30 frames, Cross is 19 frames, and Holy Water is 18 frames; Mario's Fireball is 17 frames, Wolf's Blaster is 16 frames, and the Links' and the Pits' arrows are dependent on how long you charge them for which is crucial for the Links to get any horizontal distance. Falco can put out consecutive projectiles faster than other characters let alone that his draw is one the fastest since his projectile is frame 8 on startup at the slowest. Pretty impressive for a bird man with chubby feathery hands.

Didn't know about the Reflector cooldown buff from Sm4sh to Ultimate but as I said, Falco is still able to get hit after landing the move. Probably has to do with the overall movement buffs across the board and the ability to do any attack out of a dash along with any startup buffs. To be more specific, I first noticed it when playing against my buddy's Marth. He's got disjoints to help him hit Falco too but that's why I'd like Reflector to be more safe, so Falco at least has something to help against disjoints when he's in that uncomfortable midrange.
It's not really the movement buffs which do play a part in being able to jump from the ground faster and dashes, not runs, but dashes being faster for everyone. The reason is its knockback. Knockback-wise and I'm going to have to go off of Brawl and Smash 4 since we don't know Ultimate's which probably is the same, it had a base of 35 and growth of 30. In Brawl, it did 6% instead of 5% like with Smash 4 and Ultimate. So, its overall knockback is very low, but not low enough that it's punishable on hit from like 0% to 300%.

The intent with its knockback is that I think they want it to not cause a tumble for normal gameplay, so people not living up to 300% or whatever. So, it functions more of a interrupt by causing a flinch move. That's fine, but there are times as you and others have experienced where it doesn't do enough hit stun making it unsafe on hit. Another thing is that I don't know it's been confirmed, but Reflector in Ultimate doesn't cause trips anymore taking away a chance where it could suddenly be safer. Meanwhile, Pichu's Ftilt. Anyway, the simple solution would be to increase the base knockback or damage so that it can do more hit stun. Alternatively, they could switch it to set knockback instead and always have it do the same hit stun and knockback and have it be however high they want where hopefully it's at least 0 advantage on hit.

The one thing that always bothered me with Falco's Reflector is that he kicks it, but the kick isn't considered a hit. The hit is always treated as if the Reflector is doing everything. Part of it is aesthetics, but it could also be for function. There's two ways they could include the hit. One way is like with Lucas's Down Smash in Smash 4 where the different hits, in this case the kick and the Reflector, cannot combo into each other. The other idea is to combo into it like how Wolf's Ftilt has two hits, but that doesn't change the fact that the Reflector hit might not do enough hit stun. The first idea wouldn't have to deal with that since you could have the kick hit function like his Ftilt and have it serve as a safety net for hitting Reflector to close to an opponent. The second idea would only work well if they were okay with Reflector being able to cause a tumble. Tumbling won't really be a problem if Reflector never actually killed. It would just need to do enough hit stun and knockback for it to be safer in general.

Bair is better in this game than smash 4 as for utility. It lingers longer and deals the same knockback, at least i prefer this iteration to smash 4.
Well then, there must be something different , either the range, the weakspot or something, since i feel it lasts longer the downside is that since it comes later, im not able to hit smaller characters.
It was already answered, but to give the specific numbers, in both Smash 4 and Ultimate, the clean hit is active for 2 frames and the late hit is active for 6 frames. In Smash 4, that would be frames 4-5 for the clean hit and frames 6-11 for the late hit while in Ultimate, frames 9-10 for the clean hit and frames 11-16 for the late hit.

On the hitboxes themselves, it never had sweetspot or sourspots in Smash 4 and Ultimate, but clean and late hits. Kind of the same with Melee and Brawl too if you ignored the front hit and treated it mainly as a move to hit behind him. It maybe have different hitbox sizes in Ultimate as I've seen it hit with Falco's left knee, but it also might be because of the animation change. The notable animation change is how Falco positions his upper body where he leans in front of him, towards his left knee, and has his right arm crossed in front of him. It's almost like he's lying down like with Snake's Bair, but not completely. The kick itself looks like it's reaching further either because Falco's kicking out more or because of the way his body is positioned now so that his legs are further behind him unlike in Smash 4 where he simply kicked from a "standing" position in the air if that makes any sense.

down smash hitbox is too small to edgeguard
You've seen how enlarged his legs are during the hit of Down Smash, right? Also, like in the previous games, Falco's legs have invincibility which for this game is frames 3-8, so 2 frames into its startup animation and up to its first active frame. Remembering how priority works in Smash, this means that recoveries, so aerial moves, that go over the ledge, but are still hurtboxes can be "anti-aired" by Down Smash. It's not an easy thing to do, but it is something he has. Same deal with Fox's Down Smash, but Fox's is during its active frames, 6-7.

Falco's Down Smash catching Fire Wolf.

They wont give Falco autocancel lasers as much as id like to, people will complain a lot. I think more hitstun or doing them similar to yl arrows would make wonders.
I'll end up arguing about it forever, but for anyone asking for auto-cancel lasers or projectiles, why do you think they removed them in Smash 4? And why do you think that in no other fighting game do projectiles have the ability to cancel like that?

Krysco Krysco , this also extends to what my response to your thoughts on Blaster. People struggle with projectiles in every fighting game. It doesn't matter which fighting game and it doesn't even matter if the projectile is bad or good, people tend to struggle with them and many of them will complain about them. Smash having the ability to fight more than 1 player makes this an even bigger problem as not only would they have to deal with one projectile, but possibly two, three, four, or more. Items evens it out a bit by giving projectiles to characters who don't have them or protection against them, but that still doesn't stop projectiles being an ever present thing for players to deal with.

A character like Falco being able to put out a projectile is one thing. Being able to put out a wall of projectiles and ones that cannot be challenged is another thing. The Belmonts, Isabelle, Links, Mega Man, ROB, Snake, and Villager can put out all sorts of projectiles, but at least you can clank with them and some of them are static or have noticeable startup like the Belmonts' Axe and the Links' Boomerang having noticeable startup or the Belmonts' Holy War and Snake's C4 aren't going anywhere once they touch the ground. Falco's lasers have transcendent priority meaning you cannot clank with them and except for when it was used on the ground in Melee, 23 frames, it never had high startup. A projectile with 13 (aerial Melee Blaster) or less startup frames and virtually no recovery because it could be auto-canceled is absurd. It might seem like it's telegraphed because Falco has to hop every time he uses it, but in practice, that's still way too fast and you don't always know if he's going to fire another laser or do an empty hop, aerial, or whatever. At least in Melee it was only one laser, but in Brawl, he could put out two lasers from a hop. And once again, transcendent priority makes this even worse since the only ways you can stop his lasers is by getting hit or shielding them. Other projectiles you might be able to get away by clanking them with an aerial to approach or even grab them if they're a throwable item and in some cases, walk through them because its knockback was very low at certain ranges like with Mega Man's lemons. Yeah, have fun dealing with that.

And I'm not saying it's only Falco's Blaster. Any projectile that can auto-cancel could probably be ridiculous. Speaking of which, Young Link's arrows do not auto-cancel from a hop. It just so happens that its total frames isn't that far off from his hop air time. The total frames of Young Link's arrows is 37 frames and his hop air time is 36. This means that it takes 2 frames after his hop that Young Link would be able to act. The frame after the total frames is when a character can act after doing an action. Smash uses the term FAF, but I find it kind of dumb to need a separate term for total frames + 1 and because most Smash frame data spreadsheets do not include recovery frames or end lag as some call it, it also doesn't paint the whole picture. That said, the Links' arrows uncharged are frame 14 on startup which results in its 24 recovery frames and it needs to be charged for some time before it has decent horizontal flight . Otherwise, you're just getting arrows that arc very sharply towards the ground, so no real horizontal range which is a problem if you want a projectile with horizontal range. If not, then it can cover approaches and such because it's acting like a shield in front of the Links and (Dr.) Mario because of how his projectile is affected by gravity.

Thing is that Falco does have something similar as aerial Blaster's total frames are 38 and his hop air time is 32 frames. So 7 frames after his hop. If you want it to be 2 frames like with Young Link, then its total frames would need to drop to 33 which would also result in aerial Blaster's recovery dropping down from 32 frames to 27. Whether or not that would kill anyone, I don't know.
 

Dcas

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Frame data so far outside of Japan is spotty and not in a poor quality or shady kind of way, but it's here and there unlike Japan where there's a complete list. It makes sense, though, because the Japanese spreadsheet is not only being worked on by people who know how to look into and read the game files, but that it's being worked on by people. As far as I know and what I'm feeling from his tweets, Kurogane Hammer does frame data on his own for the most part while his friends work on other aspects for his site and for frame data, so shield stun and knockback calculations and such. That's fine if you have a lot of time, but he also wants to put as much of a complete frame data page up as possible meaning he is also looking into knockback and hit angles. Those values weren't found until recently and in general, some of them, especially for specials like projectiles, are difficult to find. He has made some exceptions like with Wolf who he is glad is back in Ultimate, but later pages are being added as close to complete as possible for him. Zapp Branniglenn does his own frame data sheets as well, but he only counted frames which is fine as it's early on and we did need some kind of reference to go off of whenever early patches hit and that happened already with 2.0.0. And then you have stuff floating around on the web, but are not being archived as well like there's knockback and hit angle data on Pichu's tilts, but it's only through a tweet as far as I know. Also, as far as I know, the most complete Zelda frame data is only on Smashboards and done by our resident Zelda moderator, BJN39.

Anyway, Ridley's frame data in terms of frames and damage were known for a while as with most of the other characters. It's his knockback and hit angle values that I recently learned were recorded. Same with Sheik.


On the subject of the power difference between Fire Wolf and Wing Blitz. Fire Wolf's finishing hit have high knockback growth and although it's not listed on Kurogane's site, I think its power is dependent on if it's being used on the ground or in the air just like in Brawl. Of the two, one of them has a base damage of 5.0% with 60 base knockback and 148 growth and the other has a base damage of 6.0% with 60 base and 136 growth. For reference, the clean hit of Falco's Bair has a knockback growth of 130, but its base damage is 13.0%. Both have the same hit angle of 361 degrees. The damage might seem low, but the finishing hit of Fire Wolf can send people flying because of its high knockback growth. I remember a tweet saying that it used to have different knockback values where it was stronger, so probably lower base, but even higher growth. This would have correlated with people's impressions of playing Wolf for the demo of the game and being surprised at how early Fire Wolf killed.

With Ridley, its values are basically like a Smash attack's; high damage, average to high base knockback, and knockback growth lower than 100 because Smashes often do +15%, so "normal" scaling would be bonkers with higher damage-dealing moves. The horizontal values aren't listed or weren't found, so I don't know about them. Damage-wise, they have a base damage value of 16.0%. Going up, its base damage is 18.0% and it has a hit angle of 64 degrees, 85 base, and 46 growth. The knockback growth looks low, but remember that it does 18% and it moves upward, so being caught at the apex of its lift would be the worst thing that could happen to his opponent, especially if they were decently high up for some reason. Going down, it has a base damage of 15.0%, 295 or 44 degree hit angle, 50 or 85 base, and 75 or 50 growth. I'm guessing that either it might be hitbox dependent or if it's being used on an airborne or grounded target. That is to say, the 295 spike hit would have 50 base and 75 growth while the 44 degree hit would have an 85 base and a 50 growth. It also has a landing hitbox which none of the Star Fox character's Up Specials do.


You did list its special properties, though. Transcendent priority isn't found on many projectiles and for whatever reason with it probably because they're using laser guns, all three Star Fox characters have it. Makes sense for Fox since it'd be annoying for him to have his lasers clank with anything while being incapable of doing knockback. Being able to fire continuously is something only Bayonetta sort of with Bullet Arts, Falco, Fox, Mega Man up to three times with his lemons (jab, Ftilt, and Nair), and Mii Gunner with Laser Blaze? can do. Also, Bowser and Charizard can keep their fire breaths out indefinitely, but the hitbox shrinks.

With Falco, it takes if I'm accounting for the frames correctly, +25 frames to fire again on the ground and +23 frames to fire again in the air. Falco choosing to fire, stop, and then fire would have the normal recovery of 34 on the ground and 32 in the air. Most projectiles are like that where they have around 30 recovery frames. For startup, it varies like the Belmonts' Axe is 30 frames, Cross is 19 frames, and Holy Water is 18 frames; Mario's Fireball is 17 frames, Wolf's Blaster is 16 frames, and the Links' and the Pits' arrows are dependent on how long you charge them for which is crucial for the Links to get any horizontal distance. Falco can put out consecutive projectiles faster than other characters let alone that his draw is one the fastest since his projectile is frame 8 on startup at the slowest. Pretty impressive for a bird man with chubby feathery hands.


It's not really the movement buffs which do play a part in being able to jump from the ground faster and dashes, not runs, but dashes being faster for everyone. The reason is its knockback. Knockback-wise and I'm going to have to go off of Brawl and Smash 4 since we don't know Ultimate's which probably is the same, it had a base of 35 and growth of 30. In Brawl, it did 6% instead of 5% like with Smash 4 and Ultimate. So, its overall knockback is very low, but not low enough that it's punishable on hit from like 0% to 300%.

The intent with its knockback is that I think they want it to not cause a tumble for normal gameplay, so people not living up to 300% or whatever. So, it functions more of a interrupt by causing a flinch move. That's fine, but there are times as you and others have experienced where it doesn't do enough hit stun making it unsafe on hit. Another thing is that I don't know it's been confirmed, but Reflector in Ultimate doesn't cause trips anymore taking away a chance where it could suddenly be safer. Meanwhile, Pichu's Ftilt. Anyway, the simple solution would be to increase the base knockback or damage so that it can do more hit stun. Alternatively, they could switch it to set knockback instead and always have it do the same hit stun and knockback and have it be however high they want where hopefully it's at least 0 advantage on hit.

The one thing that always bothered me with Falco's Reflector is that he kicks it, but the kick isn't considered a hit. The hit is always treated as if the Reflector is doing everything. Part of it is aesthetics, but it could also be for function. There's two ways they could include the hit. One way is like with Lucas's Down Smash in Smash 4 where the different hits, in this case the kick and the Reflector, cannot combo into each other. The other idea is to combo into it like how Wolf's Ftilt has two hits, but that doesn't change the fact that the Reflector hit might not do enough hit stun. The first idea wouldn't have to deal with that since you could have the kick hit function like his Ftilt and have it serve as a safety net for hitting Reflector to close to an opponent. The second idea would only work well if they were okay with Reflector being able to cause a tumble. Tumbling won't really be a problem if Reflector never actually killed. It would just need to do enough hit stun and knockback for it to be safer in general.



It was already answered, but to give the specific numbers, in both Smash 4 and Ultimate, the clean hit is active for 2 frames and the late hit is active for 6 frames. In Smash 4, that would be frames 4-5 for the clean hit and frames 6-11 for the late hit while in Ultimate, frames 9-10 for the clean hit and frames 11-16 for the late hit.

On the hitboxes themselves, it never had sweetspot or sourspots in Smash 4 and Ultimate, but clean and late hits. Kind of the same with Melee and Brawl too if you ignored the front hit and treated it mainly as a move to hit behind him. It maybe have different hitbox sizes in Ultimate as I've seen it hit with Falco's left knee, but it also might be because of the animation change. The notable animation change is how Falco positions his upper body where he leans in front of him, towards his left knee, and has his right arm crossed in front of him. It's almost like he's lying down like with Snake's Bair, but not completely. The kick itself looks like it's reaching further either because Falco's kicking out more or because of the way his body is positioned now so that his legs are further behind him unlike in Smash 4 where he simply kicked from a "standing" position in the air if that makes any sense.


You've seen how enlarged his legs are during the hit of Down Smash, right? Also, like in the previous games, Falco's legs have invincibility which for this game is frames 3-8, so 2 frames into its startup animation and up to its first active frame. Remembering how priority works in Smash, this means that recoveries, so aerial moves, that go over the ledge, but are still hurtboxes can be "anti-aired" by Down Smash. It's not an easy thing to do, but it is something he has. Same deal with Fox's Down Smash, but Fox's is during its active frames, 6-7.

Falco's Down Smash catching Fire Wolf.

Krysco Krysco , this also extends to what my response to your thoughts on Blaster. People struggle with projectiles in every fighting game. It doesn't matter which fighting game and it doesn't even matter if the projectile is bad or good, people tend to struggle with them and many of them will complain about them. Smash having the ability to fight more than 1 player makes this an even bigger problem as not only would they have to deal with one projectile, but possibly two, three, four, or more. Items evens it out a bit by giving projectiles to characters who don't have them or protection against them, but that still doesn't stop projectiles being an ever present thing for players to deal with.

A character like Falco being able to put out a projectile is one thing. Being able to put out a wall of projectiles and ones that cannot be challenged is another thing. The Belmonts, Isabelle, Links, Mega Man, ROB, Snake, and Villager can put out all sorts of projectiles, but at least you can clank with them and some of them are static or have noticeable startup like the Belmonts' Axe and the Links' Boomerang having noticeable startup or the Belmonts' Holy War and Snake's C4 aren't going anywhere once they touch the ground. Falco's lasers have transcendent priority meaning you cannot clank with them and except for when it was used on the ground in Melee, 23 frames, it never had high startup. A projectile with 13 (aerial Melee Blaster) or less startup frames and virtually no recovery because it could be auto-canceled is absurd. It might seem like it's telegraphed because Falco has to hop every time he uses it, but in practice, that's still way too fast and you don't always know if he's going to fire another laser or do an empty hop, aerial, or whatever. At least in Melee it was only one laser, but in Brawl, he could put out two lasers from a hop. And once again, transcendent priority makes this even worse since the only ways you can stop his lasers is by getting hit or shielding them. Other projectiles you might be able to get away by clanking them with an aerial to approach or even grab them if they're a throwable item and in some cases, walk through them because its knockback was very low at certain ranges like with Mega Man's lemons. Yeah, have fun dealing with that.

And I'm not saying it's only Falco's Blaster. Any projectile that can auto-cancel could probably be ridiculous. Speaking of which, Young Link's arrows do not auto-cancel from a hop. It just so happens that its total frames isn't that far off from his hop air time. The total frames of Young Link's arrows is 37 frames and his hop air time is 36. This means that it takes 2 frames after his hop that Young Link would be able to act. The frame after the total frames is when a character can act after doing an action. Smash uses the term FAF, but I find it kind of dumb to need a separate term for total frames + 1 and because most Smash frame data spreadsheets do not include recovery frames or end lag as some call it, it also doesn't paint the whole picture. That said, the Links' arrows uncharged are frame 14 on startup which results in its 24 recovery frames and it needs to be charged for some time before it has decent horizontal flight . Otherwise, you're just getting arrows that arc very sharply towards the ground, so no real horizontal range which is a problem if you want a projectile with horizontal range. If not, then it can cover approaches and such because it's acting like a shield in front of the Links and (Dr.) Mario because of how his projectile is affected by gravity.

Thing is that Falco does have something similar as aerial Blaster's total frames are 38 and his hop air time is 32 frames. So 7 frames after his hop. If you want it to be 2 frames like with Young Link, then its total frames would need to drop to 33 which would also result in aerial Blaster's recovery dropping down from 32 frames to 27. Whether or not that would kill anyone, I don't know.
Thanks for clarification.

Just came back from a regional here, ended 9 out of 130 with solo falco, Not bad at all, the matches i lost was because i made an sd and missed stuff but not because i couldnt win.

Now im 90% sure, falco just needs minor adjustments for him to be a great character. Right now my biggest struggle is dealing with small characters, pichu, pika, inlking, greninja. Everything will whiff and ill get punished badly so i think that i will need someone to cover those MU but vs everyone else, i think falco can go even and if he loses is by small margins.
 

Krysco

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How do you go about buffering a double laser during jumpsquat though? Even with the frame by frame option in training, I can't seem to get it. Holding b doesn't do it. Having two separate B presses during two of the three frames of jumpsquat doesn't seem to work either. I then tried buffering a laser during jumpsquat and then another laser as soon as possible and it still didn't work. Trying to even buffer a single laser to shoot as Falco lands doesn't work. He appears to land on frame 33 of a short hop, aerial Blaster comes out frame 7 so I tried on frames 25, 26, 27 and 28 and still not getting the silent laser. Unless this only works during normal gameplay speed? And is it an auto cancel? Like does Falco still go through Blaster ending lag despite not being in the animation for it?
 

Justin Allen Goldschmidt

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How do you go about buffering a double laser during jumpsquat though? Even with the frame by frame option in training, I can't seem to get it. Holding b doesn't do it. Having two separate B presses during two of the three frames of jumpsquat doesn't seem to work either. I then tried buffering a laser during jumpsquat and then another laser as soon as possible and it still didn't work. Trying to even buffer a single laser to shoot as Falco lands doesn't work. He appears to land on frame 33 of a short hop, aerial Blaster comes out frame 7 so I tried on frames 25, 26, 27 and 28 and still not getting the silent laser. Unless this only works during normal gameplay speed? And is it an auto cancel? Like does Falco still go through Blaster ending lag despite not being in the animation for it?
Same here, I can't do at all, even with frame-by-frame
 

Ffamran

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I really hope this doesn't get patched!
Can't patch it if it's fake. For this to have worked, Blaster would have needed to be able to auto-cancel. This needs confirmation, but I believe that no matter how many lasers Falco fires, he will experience the same recovery; 34 frames on the ground and 32 in the air. There is no way to cancel this recovery which goes along with most moves in this game that don't have additional follow-ups like jab combos or characters with Ftilt 1, 2, or even 3.

Just wanted to post something fun, but unfortunately it was misleading. For something actually meaningful. these clips by pikazono which I don't understand quite exactly what he's getting at since I can't read Japanese. The first one is about Falco Phantasm.

Google Translate gives this which makes no sense to me: "Because I think that there are also many people who do not know, Falco's vision is to hit the opponent so that the gap will be reduced, this is the same for both air on the ground." Vision refers to Phantasm by the way. I don't think he's talking about how Phantasm and Fox Illusion for that matter have different recovery when used on the ground and in the air. He might be talking about frame advantage when Phantasm hits or that it might actually have lower recovery when it hits someone. The latter I doubt is happening.

The second one is this.

Also does not make sense: "This is a guy who jumps from keeping the guard pressed down and jumps from jumping from jumping while pushing the back and forth in the air and leaving it without permission when leaving it pressed down." My guess is that, for Fair, using it out of shield while holding down so as to angle the shield downwards causes Falco to experience landing lag when landing on a platform on Battlefield which does not happen when he uses it normally by jumping. Not exactly sure why. Perhaps it's because Falco can't buffer it or use it as soon as he can from out of shield unlike with jumping normally.
 
Last edited:

Dcas

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Can't patch it if it's fake. For this to have worked, Blaster would have needed to be able to auto-cancel. This needs confirmation, but I believe that no matter how many lasers Falco fires, he will experience the same recovery; 34 frames on the ground and 32 in the air. There is no way to cancel this recovery which goes along with most moves in this game that don't have additional follow-ups like jab combos or characters with Ftilt 1, 2, or even 3.

Just wanted to post something fun, but unfortunately it was misleading. For something actually meaningful. these clips by pikazono which I don't understand quite exactly what he's getting at since I can't read Japanese. The first one is about Falco Phantasm.

Google Translate gives this which makes no sense to me: "Because I think that there are also many people who do not know, Falco's vision is to hit the opponent so that the gap will be reduced, this is the same for both air on the ground." Vision refers to Phantasm by the way. I don't think he's talking about how Phantasm and Fox Illusion for that matter have different recovery when used on the ground and in the air. He might be talking about frame advantage when Phantasm hits or that it might actually have lower recovery when it hits someone. The latter I doubt is happening.

The second one is this.

Also does not make sense: "This is a guy who jumps from keeping the guard pressed down and jumps from jumping from jumping while pushing the back and forth in the air and leaving it without permission when leaving it pressed down." My guess is that, for Fair, using it out of shield while holding down so as to angle the shield downwards causes Falco to experience landing lag when landing on a platform on Battlefield which does not happen when he uses it normally by jumping. Not exactly sure why. Perhaps it's because Falco can't buffer it or use it as soon as he can from out of shield unlike with jumping normally.
If you actually buffer laser with short hop, you can shoot 2 lasers and get like 4 frames or almost no lag. Problem is the angles, first laser is almost shoot while reaching max sh and the second while falling, so the angles are not useful but you can almost cancel it. You can buffer a single laser with sh and it will autocancel BUT the angle is not useful since it will only hit big targets, any medium/small sized characters will whiff.
 

Ffamran

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If you actually buffer laser with short hop, you can shoot 2 lasers and get like 4 frames or almost no lag. Problem is the angles, first laser is almost shot while reaching max sh and the second while falling, so the angles are not useful but you can almost cancel it. You can buffer a single laser with sh and it will autocancel BUT the angle is not useful since it will only hit big targets, any medium/small sized characters will whiff.
We've talked about this already. It's not auto-canceling; Falco's Blaster and Young Link's Fire Arrows do not auto-cancel in Ultimate. The total frames of their projectiles are simply close to their hop air times.
Thing is that Falco does have something similar as aerial Blaster's total frames are 38 and his hop air time is 32 frames. So 7 frames after his hop. If you want it to be 2 frames like with Young Link, then its total frames would need to drop to 33 which would also result in aerial Blaster's recovery dropping down from 32 frames to 27. Whether or not that would kill anyone, I don't know.
The math does not work out either for Falco to only experience 4 or so frames of recovery from firing two lasers from a hop. Frame 7 startup (laser 1) + 23 frames until he can fire another consecutive laser, so on frame 30 + 32 recovery frames regardless of how many lasers he fired total to 63 frames. With a hop airtime of 32 frames, that leaves 32 remaining frames before he can act again. From a jump, it'd be like using Blaster from a hop, but this time he fired two lasers instead of one. His jump air time is 57 frames; 63 - 57 = 6 and the frame after is when he can act, so 7 frames just like firing Blaster once from a hop.

Also, it's not the angle that's the problem because his lasers travel in a straight line, but the height.
 
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Dcas

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We've talked about this already. It's not auto-canceling; Falco's Blaster and Young Link's Fire Arrows do not auto-cancel in Ultimate. The total frames of their projectiles are simply close to their hop air times.


The math does not work out either for Falco to only experience 4 or so frames of recovery from firing two lasers from a hop. Frame 7 startup (laser 1) + 23 frames until he can fire another consecutive laser, so on frame 30 + 32 recovery frames regardless of how many lasers he fired total to 63 frames. With a hop airtime of 32 frames, that leaves 32 remaining frames before he can act again. From a jump, it'd be like using Blaster from a hop, but this time he fired two lasers instead of one. His jump air time is 57 frames; 63 - 57 = 6 and the frame after is when he can act, so 7 frames just like firing Blaster once from a hop.

Also, it's not the angle that's the problem because his lasers travel in a straight line, but the height.
Alright, thanks. Actually lasers are kinda safe if buffered properly, i mean you cant use them like in melee but i think they can disrupt certain aerials from a distance and with sh they can be used as an approach , if we could get rid of 3-4 frames (grounded) and maybe 2 from aerial , it would be amazing without relying on autocancel. Also, dair is good but it needs to come out a bit faster, same applies for bair.

The more i play falco the more i feel some very minor adjustments would make wonders.
 
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Justin Allen Goldschmidt

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Alright, thanks. Actually lasers are kinda safe if buffered properly, i mean you cant use them like in melee but i think they can disrupt certain aerials from a distance and with sh they can be used as an approach , if we could get rid of 3-4 frames (grounded) and maybe 2 from aerial , it would be amazing without relying on autocancel. Also, dair is good but it needs to come out a bit faster, same applies for bair.

The more i play falco the more i feel some very minor adjustments would make wonders.
I just want Nair's lower hitboxes to work a little bit better, then he'd be fine for me anyway.
 

Dcas

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I just want Nair's lower hitboxes to work a little bit better, then he'd be fine for me anyway.
That would amazing, so we can get a super fast oos option without whiffing plus having an option vs smallers characters which actually causes falco a lot of trouble.
 

Justin Allen Goldschmidt

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That would amazing, so we can get a super fast oos option without whiffing plus having an option vs smallers characters which actually causes falco a lot of trouble.
Agreed. Short characters give my Falco more trouble specifically because I can only punish things with ground moves most of the time. I mean, usually that's better anyways, but having less options is always bad.
 

Justin Allen Goldschmidt

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And now to add these to the list of things to fix for Falco and Ultimate in general.
Geez. Yeah, the more I see Z-axis flubs in this game, the more my bones hurt. Nice find. Z-axis has also been screwing with Pokemon Trainer a little bit and utterly guts some of Zelda's moves. I'm sure things like that are going to be smoothed out within the year if we and the general Smash public give it enough *civil* attention (no death threats and rage please).
 

0rangu

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So what options does Falco have when it comes to lasers? Unlike in Melee you can't cancel the endlag when jumping (pic releated) so you should only really buffer it right a short hop. Due to Falco's fairly high short hop the laser won't hit the opponent unless they're on a platform or they jump. Imo lasers should never be used as an offensive tool because its so easy for the opponent to avoid them or punish the endlag. The only effective way I've been able to utilise them is when trying to keep the opponent away from me by dashing away, short hopping and shooting at the opposite direction.
 
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Dcas

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So what options does Falco have when it comes to lasers? Unlike in Melee you can't cancel the endlag when jumping (pic releated) so you should only really buffer it right a short hop. Due to Falco's fairly high short hop the laser won't hit the opponent unless they're on a platform or they jump. Imo lasers should never be used as an offensive tool because its so easy for the opponent to avoid them or punish the endlag. The only effective way I've been able to utilise them is when trying to keep the opponent away from me by dashing away, short hopping and shooting at the opposite direction.
Yes, they are mostly used to force an approach vs slower or bigger and even then, most of cases they will be used with caution since a very fast character can maneuver throu them. Sometimes you can mix them while approaching but even if buffered, you will experience a 6f endlag.

So, right now, laser uses are:

-Edgeguarding or trying to gimp some recoveries.
-Vs slower or bigger characters used to force an approach. Vs faster characters or small ones, lasers are very lackluster and might be even useless since their hitbox is thin and they are relatively slow.
- VERY situational, to lock oponents.

As for now, lasers are barely decent, until they add more damage OR more hitstun OR bigger hitbox OR less ending lag, they wont have an offensive application sadly. Sadly, this is a very important tool for falco´s neutral, as right now it can be very hard to get into sword characters that plays patiently or vs certain zoners.
 

Optihus9657

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Double post
Yes, they are mostly used to force an approach vs slower or bigger and even then, most of cases they will be used with caution since a very fast character can maneuver throu them. Sometimes you can mix them while approaching but even if buffered, you will experience a 6f endlag.

So, right now, laser uses are:

-Edgeguarding or trying to gimp some recoveries.
-Vs slower or bigger characters used to force an approach. Vs faster characters or small ones, lasers are very lackluster and might be even useless since their hitbox is thin and they are relatively slow.
- VERY situational, to lock oponents.

As for now, lasers are barely decent, until they add more damage OR more hitstun OR bigger hitbox OR less ending lag, they wont have an offensive application sadly. Sadly, this is a very important tool for falco´s neutral, as right now it can be very hard to get into sword characters that plays patiently or vs certain zoners.
This is interesting because in my experience, lasers give me a reason to not approach sword characters. It can be frustrating for them at mid-range(just outside of their burst range). It makes them have to choose to shield or jump since they can't reflect or absorb lasers. With this threat at mid-range, it opens my mix-ups and allows me to not over-extend when fighting for an option. I find that laser also does well against charging characters like DK, Samus, WiiFit, Cloud, etc. They can't just sit at long range and force me to approach. I feel like you have to condition lasers to work with your movement. And it is not easy, especially if you buffer a laser just within their burst range. At this range it rewards your opponent just to get hit by laser and attack you with a burst option. I don't think there is any legitimate way of buffing laser, that doesn't automatically make it like it was in melee. IMO it's Falco's only defensive tool.

I really need to get my life together and formulate a video that I can post, but has anyone played around with Falco's backflip? Not just his short-hop or full hop, but his actual backflip. [Buffer a dash > cycle your jump with momentum in the opposite direction] I feel like it extends his aerial drift somehow, and since I've discovered it, it has helped develop my neutral game so much more. Its animation alone is conditioning my opponent to anticipate different options. It also opens up laser for me a lot better.

Besides that, has anyone experimented with Falco's edge guarding options when he's hanging on ledge? This has helped me a lot too, as it severly threatens my opponent recovering low and close to the stage with Dair. And can also threaten them recovering horizontally with Bair. Idk, I wish I could post an example. But is there anyone else incorporating this into their play? I don't see anyone doing it a lot in their locals or in tournaments in general...
 

Coccinelle

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Falco is definitely growing on me!
My main character was Wolf until recently and it took me some time to get used to Falco. Now I have come to the point that I may be better with Falco than Wolf. I will need more practice to become a good player but Falco's aerial game and combos are just pure fun. And is there one thing more enjoyable in this game than taking a stock off stage with a good Dair? Now I'm figuring out how much playing offstage can be rewarding and funny and Falco has definitely more options on this side than Wolf.
 
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Slip33

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Falco first name supposed to be base of the birds falcon, but I heard he's actually more of a Pheasant Type bird.
 
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Coccinelle

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I am wondering if we can expect some buffs for Falco in the next update. Honestly, he could take a few ones especially in comparison with Wolf and Fox. I am really into spacies from the beginning and recently I had a lot of fun with Falco. The problem is that, playing against humans recently, I could hardly achieve the same effectiveness as with Wolf. This may seem weird, but I feel like I "play better" with Falco but get more consistant results with Wolf. It is a bit unfair that spamming a couple of lasers and hitting a few Tilts with Wolf is often more rewarding than doing fancy aerial combos and follow ups with Falco. I guess I should improve my off stage game to take advantage of Falco, I am still too shy when it comes to go off stage hunting for a stock.
It looks like Larry Lurr, who plays in a galaxy far away from mine, is facing the same kind of dilemna: having fun playing with Falco or having fun winning with Wolf and Fox.
For example, I think it would be fair to buff Falco lasers (more hitstun) and Bair (faster) and nerf Wolf lasers (less damage).
 
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ALongWistfulSquiggle

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I am wondering if we can expect some buffs for Falco in the next update. Honestly, he could take a few ones especially in comparison with Wolf and Fox. I am really into spacies from the beginning and recently I had a lot of fun with Falco. The problem is that, playing against humans recently, I could hardly achieve the same effectiveness as with Wolf. This may seem weird, but I feel like I "play better" with Falco but get more consistant results with Wolf. It is a bit unfair that spamming a couple of lasers and hitting a few Tilts with Wolf is often more rewarding than doing fancy aerial combos and follow ups with Falco. I guess I should improve my off stage game to take advantage of Falco, I am still too shy when it comes to go off stage hunting for a stock.
It looks like Larry Lurr, who plays in a galaxy far away from mine, is facing the same kind of dilemna: having fun playing with Falco or having fun winning with Wolf and Fox.
For example, I think it would be fair to buff Falco lasers (more hitstun) and Bair (faster) and nerf Wolf lasers (less damage).
I don't know if Falco will get buffed, but I do think your observations are on point. I think the reason for falco falling behind the other two is a combination of damage and mobility. Falco has to hit with 3 moves to do the damage of 1 with Wolf. That's fine, but he doesn't have the mobility required to land enough combo starters to keep up. And that's where he's beat by Fox, who has a similar damage output combined with better speed.

I do hope Falco gets a couple buffs, but I just don't know whether the development team will give him the attention he needs. I have a gut feeling he's going to get lost in the shuffle because he's neither the best nor bad and not many people seem to pick him. Then again, in Smash 4 a lot of buffs were given to slightly underperforming but still fairly good characters, so we'll see.
 
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