Q&A Ultimate Falco: Gameplay & General Discussion

[Ffamran]

I think this somewhat confirms your speculation about Brawl's knockback being too much generally to do many followups. But I'll say that Brawl had quite a few weak knockback moves dedicated to combo extension---Wario's fair and nair are standouts (vid related below).

I was not a competitive Brawl player, but from what I was told, looked into, and understand about Brawl was that it had very strong hitstun canceling which also lead to momentum canceling. So, combined with the reduced knockback of most moves, lowered fall speeds of everyone, and gravity factoring into vertical knockback, combos didn't really work well. You could string and follow up with stuff, but not to the extent of Smash 4, Melee, or 64. Check out this page: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Hitstun_canceling, and check the momentum canceling page that's linked on there. Also, ask someone else on Brawl who'd be more knowledgeable on this than me.

For the change in knockback, you can compare frame data of characters from Melee to Brawl to Smash 4. I've already linked my spreadsheet on Falco in a previous post a while back where you can see that Melee Falco and Smash 4 Falco generally had higher knockback than Brawl Falco.

There's also the issue of SDI being fairly strong, so if you can SDI well, you can severely screw up how a move is supposed to send you, especially multi-hit moves where you can escape them. This video demonstrates what SDI could do in Brawl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyEa_zUXjp8. Whether or not people were able to do this consistently is another thing.

So, it's kind of weird where Brawl's knockback was lower which you'd think would mean more combos, but because of hitstun canceling and momentum canceling, there's actually less combos in Brawl than in the other games. Ultimate's story is entirely different where it's the knockback system making it hard to follow up. In the other games, people get sent flying in a way characters can chase after them to combo, follow up, or string together moves. I think an appropriate way to say this is that there's acceleration with regards to knockback in the previous four games. You might have heard about the balloon knockback of Ultimate where when you hit people, it's like popping a balloon. They explode and immediately or get sent to where they're going much faster than in the previous games. So, there isn't acceleration, but more like instant position changes. Part of this I can see being the developers wanting to stop or lower the amount of easy combos being performed, so stuff like ZSS's Uair juggles to Boost Kick or maybe even stuff like Fox and Mario's early Utilt chains which I feel like could have been fixed by changing their knockback entirely instead of the entire system itself. At the same time, however, it screws up with everyone's ability to follow up in general unless, as I stated, you're playing as Ken and Ryu who have actual cancels or Bayonetta.

I'd look into the balloon knockback elsewhere since I don't think I'm explaining it properly.

Also, if you skip to 1:10 in the video above, you can see the dramatic difference between how Falco's nair used to work vs how it works in tr45h.

So, part of this is how multi-hits worked in games before Smash 4. Most multi-hit moves, so more than 2-3 hit moves, including rapid jabs didn't have high knockback scaling for their final hits or a final hit at all for rapid jabs. Smash 4 changed that which is why you see, in this case, Falco's Nair and Fair having much higher knockback in Smash 4 and Ultimate compared to in Brawl. The other thing is that landing hits were added to some multi-hit moves in Smash 4 of which in Smash 4, Falco's Fair has one, but Nair doesn't. This means that if you land with Fair, then the opponent gets sent flying, but if you land with Nair before its final hit, then you could achieve something similar to what happened at 1:10 where Falco lands with Nair and follows up with Utilt. I say could and similar because Falco's Brawl Nair had 9 landing frames while Smash 4's Nair had 15 which isn't surprising since Smash 4's direction was give most moves higher recovery.

In Ultimate, with aerials having lower landing frames or better auto-cancels, I could see Falco being able to do the same thing as he did in Ultimate. It's just people haven't been doing it or Nair already ended before they land. For one, Ultimate Zelda's Nair has similar landing frames or maybe slightly lower to Smash 4 Falco's Nair and I wouldn't be surprised if both of them can do landing Nairs to setup stuff. Alternatively, they could possibly try setups where they land with the last hit of Nair, but given the new knockback system, they might still not be able to follow up.

Is that a thing now?

Yes it is. Check it out here where DR. DVD, the Luigi player, kept instinctively trying to use Luigi Cyclone to gain some height before recovering with Super Jump Punch or as a follow-up after a setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIo-oLCympQ.

I can see why they did this since Luigi Cyclone not only had great vertical height if you could mash it, but it was also a pretty strong move to kill with. That said, I feel like they went too far by making so Luigi doesn't even move in any direction. If Dr. Tornado is the same, then Doc has it much worse when his jump and Super Jump Punch have shorter vertical travel than Luigi's jump and SJP or Mario's jump since Mario Tornado became his Dair after Brawl.

 

[Ag47]

Is that a thing now?

Yeah my man luigi really did die during the Nintendo direct

0:27 for the first one the player tries. He just gets sadder and sadder as the match progresses :/

Edit: Didn't see the above post saying the same thing when I posted, my bad

 

[Nohbl]

He just gets sadder and sadder as the match progresses :/

Do you mind translating?

 

[Ag47]

Do you mind translating?

Oof you put me on the spot there (my Spanish ain't the best). Basically, the moment he tries to mash he says that there's no mashing and over the next 20 seconds or so they're asking him if he's doing something wrong until he demonstrates that he's obviously mashing but there's no vertical to the cyclone. Then, to put a cherry on top, he gets excited again over finding out Luigi has a tether grab only to instantly get quiet again once he realizes it doesn't grab ledge LOL

 

[LGameTales]

We started this sheet on the Falco Discord, compiling the changes we notice:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fpe3vksUYl5ptO0xl_zrDxy0KpCE9xUML5steZl3OYM/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Ffamran]

We started this sheet on the Falco Discord, compiling the changes we notice:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fpe3vksUYl5ptO0xl_zrDxy0KpCE9xUML5steZl3OYM/edit?usp=sharing

If you don't mind me asking, but what footage have you guys been using to get some of the frame data? Specifically Bair where the only footage I know of that had him use it was a video that wasn't recorded at 60 FPS.

 

[Ag47]

We started this sheet on the Falco Discord, compiling the changes we notice:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fpe3vksUYl5ptO0xl_zrDxy0KpCE9xUML5steZl3OYM/edit?usp=sharing

Also are you guys sure it's frame 7 for the grounded blaster? I think Ffamran made a really good case for how it starts frame 9 based on the footage we have showing hitboxes (discussed earlier in this thread).

 

[LGameTales]

If you don't mind me asking, but what footage have you guys been using to get some of the frame data? Specifically Bair where the only footage I know of that had him use it was a video that wasn't recorded at 60 FPS.

We've put timestamped videos in the comments of the Notes section. If you hover over each cells, it should show you each link. Indeed there are some things with no 60fps footage yet, so we've needed to use 30fps videos as estimations. We've shown estimations with tildes ~

Also are you guys sure it's frame 7 for the grounded blaster? I think Ffamran made a really good case for how it starts frame 9 based on the footage we have showing hitboxes (discussed earlier in this thread).

The hitbox for the laser is active as soon as the blaster emits the blue effect, which seemingly happens on frame 7 in Ultimate. Even looking at the 60fps footage in Falco's video reel, the hitbox starts (within the blaster) on frames 7 or 8 depending on if that first frame is Falco standing or the first frame of Blaster's animation. We all believe it was Falco standing.

Here's a quick image of the frames of Blaster, assuming that first frame is indeed frame 1. (It is possible that it is frame 2, but we don't think so.)

Spoiler: Frames 1, 6, 7

The red hitbox can be seen on the blaster. I see this is addressed in the last page, and because no number is visible, it might be a visual effect only, but that red color actually moves from that position out with each frame, so I still believe it's a hitbox and the number is just hidden (perhaps inside the blaster). It would also stay consistent with Smash 4, in which the hitbox became active as soon as the blue effect happened.

 

[Ffamran]

First off, just edit in whatever you want to say more into your original post. Otherwise, you're double posting. Moving on...

We've put timestamped videos in the comments of the Notes section. If you hover over each cells, it should show you each link. Indeed there are some things with no 60fps footage yet, so we've needed to use 30fps videos as estimations. We've shown estimations with tildes ~

This is just me, but I'd rather not do estimations with non 60 FPS footage as they're not accurate since you can't really double the frames to get an estimate or definite frame. Like I said, that's just me, though, as I'd rather wait for 60 FPS footage or datamined values.

This is my own technical problem, but I can't see the timestamped videos in the comments of the Notes section. The only things I want to note, however, are Dtilt and Down Smash. From the recent November Direct and assuming it's not an earlier or different build than what people have been playing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fccgHnBQ0YM&feature=youtu.be&t=947, Dtilt hit Jigglypuff on frame 10 where the starting frame is when Falco suddenly crouches down. He hit Jigglypuff with the tip of his tail, but on frame 9, his tail's still in the background, so I don't think it's possible for it to be frame 9. Down Smash I noted as being frame 12. It doesn't look like Falco charged Down Smash at all, but at frame 7, Falco's still upright and it's at frame 12 his legs are apart. The starting frame being when Falco goes from standing to beginning to crouch a bit so that he can jump up.

Regardless, awesome work to you all and we're getting a clearer idea of what Falco is like in Ultimate.

Edit: More Falco gameplay.

This was from the Nintendo Belgium stream according to this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9vwgte/just_wanted_to_let_yall_know_what_this_channel/. Regardless, it's on-screen gameplay with no commentary, so we can hear Falco's voice in Ultimate. It's probably still Mark Lund as he's Falco current voice actor from 64 3D, Zero, and the Nintendo Switch version of Starlink: Battle for Atlas, but he definitely got some different direction and gave Falco new lines. This is weird, but Lund's performance for Falco in Ultimate during fights makes me think of Hwoarang from Tekken. Here's a video of Hwoarang's command list in Tekken 7 so you can hear what he sounds like when he fights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30HCsdB5b7E. I think it might because Lund used a "softer" voice for Falco in Ultimate than in Smash 4 where it kind of sounded like he was trying to emulate Hisao Egawa's Falco, very noticeable with Falco's rapid jab voice clip, and Dex Manley's Brawl Falco excluding his spoken lines. Now he's doing his own thing more which to me, makes Ultimate Falco sound like Hwoarang and Sean Chiplock's Revali.

That just leaves what Falco sounds like in Japanese since he wasn't played by anyone on-screen for recent Japanese invitational or whatever it was. Anyway, in terms of gameplay, we get clearer looks at moves like Up Smash, Bair, and D-throw and if there wasn't any stuttering and they were really recording at 60 FPS which I would assume they were since it was a Nintendo stream, some frame data.

There's two other videos with Falco in team battles. This one is Falco and Villager vs. Roy and Mewtwo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0RzaCss5bA. The moment where Bair almost killed Roy at 95% was when Roy looked like he was charging Up Smash and barely was able to get it out.

The second one is Falco and Isabelle vs. Samus and Villager: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxhG0MOABYQ.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Going over the Falco vs. Inkling video.

Note: As before, recovery frames are estimates as we do not know the active frames of moves. And for people who don't want to scroll up, here's the post of the linked spreadsheet by the Ultimate Falco Discord I'm talking about in the spoilers: https://smashboards.com/threads/ult...eneral-discussion.455401/page-2#post-22678463.

Spoiler: Falco vs. Inkling Notes

Dash attack really is frame 7: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=12. The starting frame is when Falco suddenly shifts from his running animation to him turning his legs towards the background -- not sure how to word that properly. From there, Inkling gets hit on frame 7 as indicated by the hit effect appearing. The damage doesn't register until frame 9. Falco does another dash attack briefly afterwards and the same thing happens; frame 7 hit effect and frame 9 damage register.

Down Smash is frame 12: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=25. The starting frame is when Falco starts to crouch a bit from idle to prepare for his jump up and splits landing. From there, Inkling gets hit on frame 12 and the damage registers on frame 14. Also, the sparkle doesn't appear until frame 2. The range looks like it increased since Falco's legs grow in size a lot compared to what I remember of Smash 4 and the previous games, but that could me remembering things wrong.

Up Smash's first hit is still frame 7, the same as in the linked spreadsheet by the Ultimate Falco Discord: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=29. The starting frame is when Falco suddenly shifts from his U-throw's recovery animation to him looking forward and a sparkle appearing behind him. From there, Falco kicks out and an attack effect appears on frame 7. The ice platform above him gets hit on frame 9. Because he hit something, there's hit lag until the second hit starts to animate. Animation-wise, it's no longer Charlie Nash's Somersault Shell, a back-facing front flip that hits twice, but Rugal Bernstein's Genocide Cutter or Vergil's Rising Sun depending on who you're more familiar with. So, I say Bernstein's and Vergil's instead of Captain Falcon's Up Smash because unlike Capt., Bernstein, Vergil, and Falco do theirs facing the screen or the background with Falco when he's facing left. Capt. does his facing the opponent. Vergil does have a special case where because he used Rising Sun first in Devil May Cry 3, a 3D hack 'n' slash game, Rising Sun would be more narrow than in a 2D fighting game. That is to say, Rising Sun is a linear launcher in DMC3 and in DMC4 as part of the Devil Trigger altered Kick13 for Dante and Vergil in DMC4: Special Edition. Otherwise, they're the same move, a high flying tornado kick followed by a roundhouse.

Anyway, as a result of the animation change, Up Smash might hit higher up as Falco jumps up higher than in Smash 4, but it may not have the same active frames or horizontal reach, especially behind him.

Side Smash is still frame 17: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=67. The starting frame is when the blue sparkle appears in front of Falco. It looked like the player tried to dash a bit or something before doing Side Smash, but that isn't part of its startup as earlier when he did a charged Side Smash, he did it after landing and those frames were not present. Instead, the sparkle appears after Falco's landing animation: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=53. So, from the blue sparkle and Falco leaning forwards a bit, Inkling gets hit on frame 17. The attack effect appears on frame 16, so it is possible for it to have a hitbox starting on that frame and for Side Smash to hit high.

Ftilt is still frame 6: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=38. It's a bit hard to see here since Falco's still has his invincibility frames from KO'd and there's the smoke from Inkling, but you can make out when Falco stops running and enters into Ftilt's first frame of startup. From there, he kicks out on frame 6 and shields on frame 27. If it still has the same 3 active frames, 6-8, then its recovery is 19 frames, the same as Brawl's, to Smash 4's 20. Its total frame is 1 less than in Smash 4. Nothing big since its recovery was never that high; Melee's was the lowest at 18 frames where it had the same total frames as Brawl and Ultimate, but it was faster by one frame on startup and had two more active frames.

You can see Ftilt again, but this time hitting after Falco lands with a whiffed Nair: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=59. It hits her on frame 6 and the damage registers on frame 8.

Dtilt definitely looks like it's frame 10 and Falco shields immediately after where it appears on frame 33: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=41. If Dtilt still has its 3 active frames making it frame 10-12, then it has 21 recovery frames, the same as Melee and Brawl's Dtilt without IASA. With IASA, then this iteration of Dtilt not only has the slowest startup as it's the only one with a frame 10, changed startup, it is also the slowest as Melee with IASA has the same 19 recovery frames as Smash 4 and Brawl with IASA has 18 recovery frames.

Nair's startup is still 3: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=70. After Falco gets hit, he uses Nair to interrupt Inkling from doing anymore followups. The starting frame is after Falco exits his injured animation and the wind swirls start to appear around him. From there, Inkling gets hit on frame 3 as indicated by the hit effect. Damage doesn't register until frame 5.

Nair's landing lag is 9 frames: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=59. The starting frame is when Falco suddenly shifts from Nair's hitting animation to its landing animation when he touches the ground. As noted before, Falco immediately does Ftilt after this and from when he lands, frame 10 is when he Ftilt's first startup frame. That's 6 frames less than in Smash 4 and Melee's regular landing lag for Nair and the same frames as Brawl's Nair. Pretty awesome.

Uair is frame 7, the same as 1.0.8 Smash 4 and as in the linked spreadsheet: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=49. I could have gotten this from the 8 player gameplay video, but didn't do it. The starting frame is when Falco suddenly shifts from his jump's initial frames to him looking like he's trying to lean forward in the air. From there, Inkling gets hit on frame 7.

Shortly after Uair, Falco goes for a Bair and it hits Inking on frame 13. The attack itself comes out on frame 9, but Inkling doesn't get hit until frame 13, so this means Bair has at least 5 active frames. The starting frame is when Falco's suddenly shifts from his somersault animation for his double jump to preparing to kick behind him with his right leg. From there, the kick comes out on frame 9 and Inkling gets hit on frame 13. Since Inkling didn't get sent that far away and it only did 7.4%, it was likely a late hit.

Falco does a very low Dair and immediately shields after here letting us see its landing lag: https://youtu.be/Dvon11gAoFA?t=88. The starting frame is when Falco suddenly shifts from his Dair spin to, well, landing. From there, the shield appears on frame 15. So, 14 landing frames as noted in the linked spreadsheet. Startup is the same as noted before and in the linked spreadsheet at frame 10.

So, as of this video and for what I observed.

Move|Startup|Recovery
Jab 1|2|N/A
Jab 2|3|N/A
Rapid Jab|5|N/A
Rapid Jab Finisher|5|~42 to 45
Dash attack|7|N/A
Utilt|5, 12|~14
Ftilt|6|~19
Dtilt|10|~21
Up Smash|7|N/A
Side Smash|17|~32-33
Down Smash|12|N/A
Nair|3|9 (landing)
Uair|7|N/A
Fair|8|N/A
Bair|9|N/A
Dair|10|14 (landing)
Blaster|9|31 (+2, second shot)
Falco Phantasm|18|~37
Reflector|6 (1 reflect)|~37
Jump|3|N/A

Edit 3: With a Vengeance: So, the Falco in the team battle with Villager against Roy and Mewtwo spammed Utilt here trying to catch Roy who was hit by Villager's Final Smash: https://youtu.be/f0RzaCss5bA?t=119. He did hit Mewtwo on one of his attempts with the second hit on Utilt. Utilt's startup still looks like frame 5 and the second hit still looks like it's frame 12 which is when Mewtwo was hit on that one successful attempt. The damage registers on frame 14. The second hit looks like it has the same 5 active frames, 12-16. Each time he uses Utilt, it takes 30 frames until he can another and if its second has the same active frames, then it has around 14 recovery frames. That's down by 7 from Smash 4 and by 15 without IASA and 6 with IASA from Brawl and 2 frames more than Melee's Utilt.

Also, I've been noticing this, but it looks like people are having a hard time with Falco's lower jump startup. I've seen players go for U-throw to Up Smash which is probably never going to hit outside of special circumstances where I think they either wanted to do Uair, Nair, or maybe even Utilt. Then again, the Zelda boards noticed this too with some Zelda players doing Up Smash instead of Nair or Uair after an U-throw.

 

[S-bow64]

I got a question concerning U-tilt and Dair.

Since apparently Dair autocancel on SH, it could be possible to U-tilt to Dair at low/mid % ?
If so how's the Dair spike ? I heard you can't tech them anymore, could be good for combo extentions.
If anybody has informations about that I'm all ears.

 

[Ag47]

I got a question concerning U-tilt and Dair.

Since apparently Dair autocancel on SH, it could be possible to U-tilt to Dair at low/mid % ?
If so how's the Dair spike ? I heard you can't tech them anymore, could be good for combo extentions.
If anybody has informations about that I'm all ears.

I think that's one of the strings that the labbers on the Falco discord are planning to test on the game's release. From the footage available right now there's no way for us to definitively answer that yet. As for the Dair spike, it's not particularly strong, but it looks like it'll still be useful as a gimping tool and possible combo/neutral tool as well. The untechable animation only happens on grounded opponents so unfortunately an U-tilt to Dair combo would be techable.

 

[Zoneyboi]

What's going on with Falco's uair? Animation seems to indicate much bigger hitbox but it passes straight through MK and whiffs, at least as far as I can tell.

https://youtu.be/LYO9GDUnLcI at 0:17

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Reporting in to say that I have the game and Falco is my main. AMA.
Willing to test any mechanics you request. But I can't record.

 

[Zoneyboi]

If I were you I'd see what may or may not combo well. Utilt to dair, uair to uair or fair or nair.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

If I were you I'd see what may or may not combo well. Utilt to dair, uair to uair or fair or nair.

Dair on grounded opponent comboes into anything you want, including Uair and Bair, at kill percents.

Fast-fall Nair combos into Uptilt and Upsmash among other things, but Upsmash will miss on short characters (seen it vs Diddy and Puff).

Upair and Uptilt combo into anything you want, including Dair at almost any %. Bair kill combos feel way harder because of the huge startup nerf on that move.

 

[marth_t90]

Dair on grounded opponent comboes into anything you want, including Uair and Bair, at kill percents.

Fast-fall Nair combos into Uptilt and Upsmash among other things, but Upsmash will miss on short characters (seen it vs Diddy and Puff).

Upair and Uptilt combo into anything you want, including Dair at almost any %. Bair kill combos feel way harder because of the huge startup nerf on that move.

can you do melee pillar combos of dair into utilt into ff dair into ultilt etc

 

[Chibi-Chan]

can you do melee pillar combos of dair into utilt into ff dair into ultilt etc

No, Falco can't seem to fast fall faster than Dair spikes them thanks to the weird knockback acceleration. Only way to combo from aerial Dair that I can see is that they don't tech and bounce up.

Also, Jab combo no longer ledge cancels. Falco doesn't seem to fall off in any direction so don't theorycraft these combos.

 

[Kofeezy]

No, Falco can't seem to fast fall faster than Dair spikes them thanks to the weird knockback acceleration. Only way to combo from aerial Dair that I can see is that they don't tech and bounce up.

Also, Jab combo no longer ledge cancels. Falco doesn't seem to fall off in any direction so don't theorycraft these combos.

So what do you think about Falco’s competitive viability? He have enough tools to make noise in Ultimate or not?

 

[Ffamran]

What's going on with Falco's uair? Animation seems to indicate much bigger hitbox but it passes straight through MK and whiffs, at least as far as I can tell.

https://youtu.be/LYO9GDUnLcI at 0:17

So, the video quality isn't that great, but what happened is that Falco did a Uair above Meta Knight. Slow it down or check it frame by frame using the < and > keys on your keyboard. Falco's attack effects being blue in this game instead of pinkish-purple, fuchsia?, also doesn't help with Meta Knight being on the same team as him; they're both on team blue. The other thing and I hope this was contained much more in Ultimate is that attack effects and attack animations aren't entirely accurate. Falco and Fox's Dtilts in Smash 4 come to mind. Falco's Dtilt hits about a third more from where the trail is while Fox's Dtilt doesn't have a hitbox on the tip of his tail for some reason. For Falco, it made Dtilt an even better move that it already was as a fast, sweep and launcher that was naturally disjointed as it used his tail, but it was also deceptive and especially so when it was fairly fast on startup and had decent recovery. Fox just got screwed for no reason. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf also have their infamous Side Smashes that are noticeably disjointed elbow strikes and Captain Falcon's Up Smash is disjointed in front of and below him.

can you do melee pillar combos of dair into utilt into ff dair into ultilt etc

Chibi-Chan already stated you can't and that's to be expected. Melee had a much higher fall speed and Melee Falco had Shine which was frame 1 on startup and could be jump-canceled and with wavedashing, could be waveshined and Dair was frame 5 on startup, spiked for all its frames in the non-PAL versions of the game. Ultimate Falco's Dair is also weaker than in the previous games, so while it can spike, it probably won't spike as hard until the opponent's at a high percent.

Also, Jab combo no longer ledge cancels. Falco doesn't seem to fall off in any direction so don't theorycraft these combos.

The new finisher and its ending animation pretty much confirmed that. Ultimate Falco does a weird spinning axe kick in place and backflips after it while in Smash 4, he lunged forward which allowed him to ledge cancel rapid jab.

Speaking of jab, how does the recovery on jab 1 and jab 2 feel? If they're quick enough on recovery while having decent enough hit stun, Falco might be able to do some jab mixups like in Brawl. If not, then whatever. At least jab combo functions now unlike in Smash 4.

Willing to test any mechanics you request. But I can't record.

Could you check if Up Smash still has invincibility? Patched Up Smash in Smash 4 was given invincibility on his legs and for both hits making it a fantastic anti-air. They might have went a bit too far since its I-frames matched its high active frames. Anyway, if it keeps leg invincibility, then Falco would retain a safe and punishing anti-air.

You checked fast fall Nair setups, but could you check if landing with Nair's last hit and Fair's landing hit for that matter since it has lower landing lag in Ultimate can lead to any setups. Old video on what I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGyX0ootF0Q.

Checking if Dtilt still has sourspots, Bair's KO percent, preferably on Mario since he's the average guy, if new D-throw actually does anything or if it's basically Marth's D-throw now, and if U-throw and B-throw's lasers still kill would be appreciated.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

So, the video quality isn't that great, but what happened is that Falco did a Uair above Meta Knight. Slow it down or check it frame by frame using the < and > keys on your keyboard. Falco's attack effects being blue in this game instead of pinkish-purple, fuchsia?, also doesn't help with Meta Knight being on the same team as him; they're both on team blue. The other thing and I hope this was contained much more in Ultimate is that attack effects and attack animations aren't entirely accurate. Falco and Fox's Dtilts in Smash 4 come to mind. Falco's Dtilt hits about a third more from where the trail is while Fox's Dtilt doesn't have a hitbox on the tip of his tail for some reason. For Falco, it made Dtilt an even better move that it already was as a fast, sweep and launcher that was naturally disjointed as it used his tail, but it was also deceptive and especially so when it was fairly fast on startup and had decent recovery. Fox just got screwed for no reason. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf also have their infamous Side Smashes that are noticeably disjointed elbow strikes and Captain Falcon's Up Smash is disjointed in front of and below him.


Chibi-Chan already stated you can't and that's to be expected. Melee had a much higher fall speed and Melee Falco had Shine which was frame 1 on startup and could be jump-canceled and with wavedashing, could be waveshined and Dair was frame 5 on startup, spiked for all its frames in the non-PAL versions of the game. Ultimate Falco's Dair is also weaker than in the previous games, so while it can spike, it probably won't spike as hard until the opponent's at a high percent.


The new finisher and its ending animation pretty much confirmed that. Ultimate Falco does a weird spinning axe kick in place and backflips after it while in Smash 4, he lunged forward which allowed him to ledge cancel rapid jab.

Speaking of jab, how does the recovery on jab 1 and jab 2 feel? If they're quick enough on recovery while having decent enough hit stun, Falco might be able to do some jab mixups like in Brawl. If not, then whatever. At least jab combo functions now unlike in Smash 4.

Could you check if Up Smash still has invincibility? Patched Up Smash in Smash 4 was given invincibility on his legs and for both hits making it a fantastic anti-air. They might have went a bit too far since its I-frames matched its high active frames. Anyway, if it keeps leg invincibility, then Falco would retain a safe and punishing anti-air.

You checked fast fall Nair setups, but could you check if landing with Nair's last hit and Fair's landing hit for that matter since it has lower landing lag in Ultimate can lead to any setups. Old video on what I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGyX0ootF0Q.

Checking if Dtilt still has sourspots, Bair's KO percent, preferably on Mario since he's the average guy, if new D-throw actually does anything or if it's basically Marth's D-throw now, and if U-throw and B-throw's lasers still kill would be appreciated.

Well that's a lot of things, let's see....

Jab1 and 2 recovery is pretty slow or at least the window to do the next hit by pressing A is huge. You can't really go into anything besides the ender.

It's hard for me to test Upsmash intangibility. But I just just got it to cleanly go through Daisy's dair, so it's probably still in.

Dtilt does 12.6% far and 15.6% close. The knockback difference is very significant. Sweetspot KOs Mario at 126% on Omega stage. Both can lead into Nair or Fair easily enough at low %.

Having a really hard time getting anything after landing fair or final hit of nair besides sourspot dash attack. The knockback angles are very low so they hit the floor quickly and far away.

Bair might be nerfed to hell in speed, but it's still very strong. KOes Mario at 89% by the ledge on Omega. So will secure the KO when edgeguarding over 80.

DownThrow combos into dash attack up until like 30% and then they're just barely out of reach for anything, very sad. It sends them just a bit too high to be great.

Upthrow and Backthrow connect with the laser a lot more reliable until like 170%, then it starts missing if they don't DI into it. This is also the same % it would in theory start KOing... So yeah, they're bad. Fthrow wont KO until over 200% either.

Overall, I'd say Falco wasn't really improved that much. The new Dair is really cool but it does have some notable landing lag if using it for combos, so it's better offstage. The nerf to Bair is HUGE as far as comboing into it reliably. So my advice now is to get good at spiking because that's his new best thing. The nerf to airdodging is great, though, as you can sometimes follow someone in the air throwing out a buncha aerials, and now at least the second one will hit. Falco is very deadly offstage or when attacking an enemy high up in the air. Run-off rising Dair or just plain run-off Dair are very satisfying KOs that work even on enemies recovering low! Unlike melee you don't die attempting these anymore.

 

[Kofeezy]

Well that's a lot of things, let's see....

Jab1 and 2 recovery is pretty slow or at least the window to do the next hit by pressing A is huge. You can't really go into anything besides the ender.

It's hard for me to test Upsmash intangibility. But I just just got it to cleanly go through Daisy's dair, so it's probably still in.

Dtilt does 12.6% far and 15.6% close. The knockback difference is very significant. Sweetspot KOs Mario at 126% on Omega stage. Both can lead into Nair or Fair easily enough at low %.

Having a really hard time getting anything after landing fair or final hit of nair besides sourspot dash attack. The knockback angles are very low so they hit the floor quickly and far away.

Bair might be nerfed to hell in speed, but it's still very strong. KOes Mario at 89% by the ledge on Omega. So will secure the KO when edgeguarding over 80.

DownThrow combos into dash attack up until like 30% and then they're just barely out of reach for anything, very sad. It sends them just a bit too high to be great.

Upthrow and Backthrow connect with the laser a lot more reliable until like 170%, then it starts missing if they don't DI into it. This is also the same % it would in theory start KOing... So yeah, they're bad. Fthrow wont KO until over 200% either.

Overall, I'd say Falco wasn't really improved that much. The new Dair is really cool but it does have some notable landing lag if using it for combos, so it's better offstage. The nerf to Bair is HUGE as far as comboing into it reliably. So my advice now is to get good at spiking because that's his new best thing. The nerf to airdodging is great, though, as you can sometimes follow someone in the air throwing out a buncha aerials, and now at least the second one will hit. Falco is very deadly offstage or when attacking an enemy high up in the air. Run-off rising Dair or just plain run-off Dair are very satisfying KOs that work even on enemies recovering low! Unlike melee you don't die attempting these anymore.

So basically his air and offstage game is where he’ll shine. Is there any use to lasers as mid to long range pressure, grounded or aerial? Or are they just like Smash 4’s lasers and not worth using? And the fast fall nair to up Smash setup you were mentioning, is that a kill setup or suited better to low % combos? Were you able to find any kill setups?

 

[Chibi-Chan]

So basically his air and offstage game is where he’ll shine. Is there any use to lasers as mid to long range pressure, grounded or aerial? Or are they just like Smash 4’s lasers and not worth using? And the fast fall nair to up Smash setup you were mentioning, is that a kill setup or suited better to low % combos? Were you able to find any kill setups?

FF Nair into Upsmash is a kill setup. It works at any % you wish.

Lasers don't autocancel or anything, but the recovery is a lot faster, you won't be punished on hit by a dash attack fromhalf the stage away so you can just use them when at safe distance. The "tips" thing during loading says they fire faster in the air, but I didn't see a huge difference. Either way, the lasers only got buffed but you can still only use them to camp or to try to snipe people offstage by spamming jump laser.

EDIT: Eating double jump is all you need to gimp a lot of characters in this smash since recoveries are mostly nerfed. Laser can do this but only if they're bad and double jump before going low.

 

[Kofeezy]

FF Nair into Upsmash is a kill setup. It works at any % you wish.

Lasers don't autocancel or anything, but the recovery is a lot faster, you won't be punished on hit by a dash attack fromhalf the stage away so you can just use them when at safe distance. The "tips" thing during loading says they fire faster in the air, but I didn't see a huge difference. Either way, the lasers only got buffed but you can still only use them to camp or to try to snipe people offstage by spamming jump laser.

EDIT: Eating double jump is all you need to gimp a lot of characters in this smash since recoveries are mostly nerfed. Laser can do this but only if they're bad and double jump before going low.

Thank you for answering my questions, I appreciate you. Really hoping I can make some noise with Falco in my region and it seems like it’ll be able to make something work, his tools aren’t as pitiful as some have made them out to be.

 

[Ffamran]

Dtilt does 12.6% far and 15.6% close. The knockback difference is very significant. Sweetspot KOs Mario at 126% on Omega stage. Both can lead into Nair or Fair easily enough at low %.

If it doesn't have a middle hitbox, then this puts Dtilt closer to Brawl where it only has two hitboxes. The damage increase is pretty high, especially if this was on training mode. Sweet-spot Dtilt in Brawl and Smash 4 did 12% and Melee simply did 13%.

Bair might be nerfed to hell in speed, but it's still very strong. KOes Mario at 89% by the ledge on Omega. So will secure the KO when edgeguarding over 80.

Now I wonder how strong Wolf's Bair is supposed to be since it's frame 13 to Falco's frame 9. I'm going to assume this is the clean hit since late hit Bair for Falco doesn't do much damage or knockback.

Upthrow and Backthrow connect with the laser a lot more reliable until like 170%, then it starts missing if they don't DI into it. This is also the same % it would in theory start KOing... So yeah, they're bad.

They're the same dumb throws from Smash 4, then. If people screw up their DI, then laser will probably kill them, but that's if they choose to not avoid the laser for some reason. If the laser connected, U-throw and B-throw were able to KO pretty well from what I remember, but without the laser, then they're just regular throws. It doesn't really matter since U-throw is used for follow-ups and B-throw is for positioning.

The new Dair is really cool but it does have some notable landing lag if using it for combos, so it's better offstage. The nerf to Bair is HUGE as far as comboing into it reliably.

People were saying Dair could auto-cancel from a hop which if that's not the case in the final build, then whatever. At this point, I view Dair having traded power for utility which going from Smash 4's generic, slow spike Dair is pretty good. It has nothing on Brawl's Dair much less Melee Dair. That said, Falco having a relatively fast Dair that if it has a generous auto-cancel window means he could use it as a divekick and cross-up tool.

For Bair, from a hop, it's relatively the same on startup. The earliest Bair can come out in Ultimate is frame 12; universal frame 3 jump and its 9 frames of startup. In the previous games where Bair was frame 4, that's 2 frames slower than in Brawl and Smash 4 due to Falco having a frame 6 jump and 3 frames slower than in Melee where he had a frame 5 jump. Compared to Brawl Wolf, it's 1 frame slower; Wolf's frame 5 jump and Brawl Bair being frame 6 on startup. In the air, however, that's where it hurts since Falco can't instantly throw out a hitbox and I doubt his air speed is anywhere close to Wolf's air speed. Anyway, he can probably still use it like in Smash 4 and sort of like Brawl Wolf.

Lasers don't autocancel or anything, but the recovery is a lot faster, you won't be punished on hit by a dash attack from half the stage away so you can just use them when at safe distance. The "tips" thing during loading says they fire faster in the air, but I didn't see a huge difference. Either way, the lasers only got buffed but you can still only use them to camp or to try to snipe people offstage by spamming jump laser.

Auto-canceled projectiles were removed starting in Smash 4. Recovery is what matters and unlike in Brawl and Smash 4, Blaster's recovery in Ultimate isn't atrocious. Ultimate Falco can actually zone compared to in Smash 4 which is huge since in Smash 4, he was forced to approach and Falco wasn't exactly built for that. Now he can control the pace of the fight better which is the point of most projectiles in fighting games.

The tips thing is something that Falco always had. Falco's Blaster always had lower startup and recovery in the air, but at this point, they might have made it too fast that it's not noticeable any more. It wasn't that noticeable in Brawl or Smash 4 either in startup or recovery. Brawl still had auto-canceling and Smash 4's recovery was so high. Melee was where it was noticeable as aerial Blaster was frame 13 on startup while ground Blaster was frame 23.

Edit: I checked this thread on landing lag for Ultimate and apparently this is a thing: https://smashboards.com/threads/landing-lag-frame-data-thread-training-mode-tested.464174/.

Falco
Nair: 9 frames
Fair: 15 frames
Bair: 13 frames
Uair: 9 frames
Dair: 14 frames
Fullhop height: 4.8 stage units
Shorthop height: 1.9 stage units
Interesting Notes: Falco's landing uair can true combo into dair even at percents as high as 160% on some characters. Falco can true combo landing nair into jab, and probably can confirm a grab off of it. Falco's legs are invincible during active downsmash and upsmash. Falco can shorthop single laser, but it will only strike an opponent who is 2 stage units tall.

Landing Uair was used to combo in Smash 4, but considering its hitbox and shorter characters, it wasn't always to do. If this is true and works regardless of DI, then Falco could potentially seal stocks on certain characters by doing landing Uair to Dair near the ledge. The Nair thing was confirmed already and a returning thing from Brawl where it had low enough landing lag to do that. Incidentally, Nair's landing lag in Ultimate is the same as in Brawl. Smash 4 had a tip saying you could do this, but Nair had 15 landing frames, so yeah. Landing with its final hit, however, was another story in Smash 4. Up Smash and Down Smash retaining their leg invincibility is good and kind of expected with Down Smash since it always had leg invincibility.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Remember the 1v1 damage boost thing is active even during training mode. So a 25% damage boost (I think) should be assumed for all moves.

I'll test the power of Wolf's Bair tomorrow, I'm kinda done for now. From playing with him a bit I think it's pretty similar power to Falco's.

Bair's speed difference is more notable than it might seem at first glance. Old Uptilt -> Bair and Upair-> Bair combos were really tight and 1-2 frames makes a huge difference in landing them now. Also you can't SHFF them mindlessly anymore, you gotta time it high enough for it to come out and it's really annoying. Instant Bair out of shield is also a no-go now since he'll rise too high during the shorthop.

Maybe I relied on Bair way too much in Smash 4.

EDIT: and yes, Dair is not instant, but by the new standards of smash bros, it comes out ludicrously fast for a spike.

EDIT2: I never tested trying to autocancel it. It would be nice but only on shield. It's good enough normally if it hits.

 

[Ffamran]

Maybe I relied on Bair way too much in Smash 4.

Well, it was a dumb move all things considered. Plenty of characters would have killed for Falco's Bair.

Also you can't SHFF them mindlessly anymore, you gotta time it high enough for it to come out and it's really annoying.

Well, you couldn't really do that in Smash 4 either. Despite its speed, it didn't have a lot of range and it was on a character with both slow ground speed and air speed. It was also on a character who didn't have a low hop. DK and Wolf were able to get away with spamming Bair when their aerial mobility was good and their hops were low. DK's also big, so he has a large hitbox going for him too. Smash 4 Bair auto-canceled before frame 4 and after frame 15 where Falco's hop air time is 32 frames. Screwing that up means he's stuck with 15 landing frames. Ultimate Bair's not that forgiving either when it apparently has 13 landing frames in addition to the higher startup. No idea on what its auto-cancel window is.

Uair might be a safer answer. You'd be using it the same way since it hits from back to forward as a frontflip. The horizontal range would be much shorter, though.

Instant Bair out of shield is also a no-go now since he'll rise too high during the shorthop.

And this reminded me of something. You don't have to test this, but jump-canceled Up Smash might be a thing for Falco players to have in their arsenal for Ultimate.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Well, it was a dumb move all things considered. Plenty of characters would have killed for Falco's Bair.


Well, you couldn't really do that in Smash 4 either. Despite its speed, it didn't have a lot of range and it was on a character with both slow ground speed and air speed. It was also on a character who didn't have a low hop. DK and Wolf were able to get away with spamming Bair when their aerial mobility was good and their hops were low. DK's also big, so he has a large hitbox going for him too. Smash 4 Bair auto-canceled before frame 4 and after frame 15 where Falco's hop air time is 32 frames. Screwing that up means he's stuck with 15 landing frames. Ultimate Bair's not that forgiving either when it apparently has 13 landing frames in addition to the higher startup. No idea on what its auto-cancel window is.

Uair might be a safer answer. You'd be using it the same way since it hits from back to forward as a frontflip. The horizontal range would be much shorter, though.


And this reminded me of something. You don't have to test this, but jump-canceled Up Smash might be a thing for Falco players to have in their arsenal for Ultimate.

Sadly I play with tap jump OFF x.x So no JC Upsmashes for me.
Uair is a great move to do low to the ground for sure, but we'll need to see the hitboxes before spamming them in the neutral.

 

[Ffamran]

Sadly I play with tap jump OFF x.x So no JC Upsmashes for me.

You don't need to play with tap jump to be able to do jump cancel Up Smash. Just faster inputs, I suppose. You could bind attack or jump to a shoulder button or whatever that would work for you.

It's not a fighting game, but jump canceling and what people can do with them in the Devil May Cry games is pretty insane, but I digress.

Uair is a great move to do low to the ground for sure, but we'll need to see the hitboxes before spamming them in the neutral.

Probably similar to in Smash 4 and Brawl. Horizontal range wasn't a strong area for Falco's aerials. People have said Bair might have more range in Ultimate which if true, helps a bit, but there's still the issue of Nair and Fair having similar hit areas of not so far in front of Falco and that's extended to Uair since it's supposed to hit and cover above him.

 

[Puttaters]

Anyone know of firebird up b changes?

 

[Kofeezy]

This thread linked below is a goldmine, check it out if you’re interested in any other characters. https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...rame-data-thread-training-mode-tested.464174/

I myself am cautiously optimistic about this:
https://streamable.com/fzflb

This at least makes aerial lasers useable to snuff jumps and force grounded approaches, which I can definitely work with.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Anyone know of firebird up b changes?

Firebird actually hits during the later half of the charge-up animation this time around, but the hitbox is extremely small and at Falco's feet, so don't expect it to protect you much. The move still has no kill power whatosever, but the "full" combo does a whopping 39.6% damage (practically impossible to get). In most instance it still does a crap 3-9% for connecting with a few hits by the end.
Distance is still less than Fire Fox, but it's deceptively large considering the recovery nerfs this game. Straight up Firebird in FD is barely enough to get Falco from shallow magnifying glass back to the ledge.

Falco SideB is great this game compared to Wolf and Fox versions, so we got the best one. It has quick startup, great distance and true combos into Bair or Uair at kill percents.

If you want a comparison for Falco laser recovery. You can FH laser and Dair sweetspot will come out before landing.

Now I wonder how strong Wolf's Bair is supposed to be since it's frame 13 to Falco's frame 9. I'm going to assume this is the clean hit since late hit Bair for Falco doesn't do much damage or knockback.

For comparison, Wolf's Bair is slower than Falco's by a bit, as I can't SHFF it super consistently, often landing before the hitbox is out. It has a tipper hitbox that does 15.3% and KOes at 78%!!! under the same test as Falco's Bair KOing at 89%, easily KOes midstage at over 100%.
There are 2 sourspots an 11.2% one for hitting close that is nothing special.
Then there is a third hitbox that does 13% somewhere in the middle that it's hard to get. This one is decently strong, but doesn't KO til over 95% at the ledge/offstage.

Falco's Bair damage depends only on the timing you hit with, entire hitbox has the same power (13.2% early and 7.1% late). Wolf's Bair has no late hitbox, the move does nothing if you touch them with the late part of the animation.

As a bonus, Fox's Bair comes out quite fast, maybe faster than Falco's this time (or the same), deals 13.2% regardless of when/where you hit and won't KO til 115% on the ledge.

Also uh,... Is it normal that some aerial moves deal higher damage when the opponent is higher in the air? I can get Wolf Bair to do 18% and Falco's to do over 15% if I hit airborne enemies. But impossible if they're grounded. What's this...? I tested it and it seems to apply to a bunch of different characters, but only when they get the best hitbox on their aerial.

 

[Ffamran]

For comparison, Wolf's Bair is slower than Falco's by a bit, as I can't SHFF it super consistently, often landing before the hitbox is out. It has a tipper hitbox that does 15.3% and KOes at 78%!!! under the same test as Falco's Bair KOing at 89%, easily KOes midstage at over 100%.
There are 2 sourspots an 11.2% one for hitting close that is nothing special.
Then there is a third hitbox that does 13% somewhere in the middle that it's hard to get. This one is decently strong, but doesn't KO til over 95% at the ledge/offstage.

The Ultimate Wolf boards' frame data thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/spe...bject-to-change-before-retail-version.457242/, said Wolf's Bair is frame 13 which hilariously enough means that both Falco and Wolf had their Bair startups essentially doubled in Ultimate; Falco going from 4 to 9 and Wolf going from 6 to 13. Anyway, they found this early with the Treehouse? stream with a match of Wolf vs. Simon. The multiple hitboxes means it's like Brawl Wolf's Bair then which did 13%/11%/10%/9% going from I'm assuming the tip of his foot to his body. Brawl Wolf's frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/wolfs-frame-data-wip.319745/.

Falco's Bair damage depends only on the timing you hit with, entire hitbox has the same power (13.2% early and 7.1% late). Wolf's Bair has no late hitbox, the move does nothing if you touch them with the late part of the animation.

Yeah, I was asking to confirm this. That means Falco's Bair functionally is the same as in the previous games where it has a clean and late hit. I'm going to guess that the clean hit is at least active for two frames like in Smash 4, so frames 9-10. Damage-wise, it's pretty much the same as well.

As a bonus, Fox's Bair comes out quite fast, maybe faster than Falco's this time (or the same), deals 13.2% regardless of when/where you hit and won't KO til 115% on the ledge.

Fox's Bair is still frame 9 as in Brawl and Smash 4. That means Ultimate Falco's Bair has the same startup. Fox's does have lower active frames than Falco's since it doesn't have a late hit, but in Smash 4, it had 3 active frames to Falco's clean Bair having 2 active frames, so it does have 1 more frame for it to land its "strong hit" relative to Falco's. Falco's having higher active frames also makes it slower in a sense of it having more total frames and more commitment, but that's dependent on what its total frames is relative to other moves.

Also uh,... Is it normal that some aerial moves deal higher damage when the opponent is higher in the air? I can get Wolf Bair to do 18% and Falco's to do over 15% if I hit airborne enemies. But impossible if they're grounded. What's this...? I tested it and it seems to apply to a bunch of different characters, but only when they get the best hitbox on their aerial.

If I recall correctly, aerials done out of a hop have a damage reduction modifier. x0.85 or something close to that? In 1v1 without items, it more or less turns them into regular aerials. So, in a way, yes, aerials do more damage if the opponent is higher in the air, but more so because you are doing an aerial from a hop.

Found a post on it: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/8zffsv/ruben_smash_ultimate_introduces_a_new_damage/.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

In that case... For clarity all of my tests have been done with short-hop damage penalty. This means you should expect more damage and earlier KO's by edgeguarding with these moves. Falco Bair after uptilt or uair should be a lot better than I speculated.

When fighting more than 1 opponent, SH aerials are further reduced in power even more. Falco SH Bair is 11.0% in this case.

 

[Ffamran]

Chibi-Chan , should have asked this earlier, but how does Falco feel mobility-wise? Melee Falco had average ground speed, same 1.5 run as Mario, but was below average in Brawl and definitely below average in Smash 4 since Mario jumped up to a 1.6 run speed. A lot of characters in Ultimate seem faster, but relative speed matters as well.

If Falco has a run speed around Mario's in Ultimate, then that would be fine as he'd have average run speed.

I figure his dash which is not to be confused with run speed is still good as it always has been. In Smash 4, he had the third fastest dash under Little Mac and Fox. Same deal with walk speed which he always was relatively fast in.

Air speed probably isn't good, but aerial acceleration might be good if Smash 4's patch was carried over, however, it might be difficult to tell, so the numbers will have to wait.

This doesn't need a definite answer and I don't expect one, but if you could compare Falco's movement, mainly horizontally, with Mario's, that would be appreciated. Post-Melee, Falco's horizontal movement wasn't so good. Melee at least had wavedashing to make his movement more flexible and both Melee and Brawl Falco didn't care about their run speed when they had auto-cancel on Blaster. Smash 4 Falco didn't have that luxury and because his run speed wasn't changed significantly, he ended up relatively slower in that game compared to in Melee and Brawl and to the characters who used to have a run speed similar to his, but became faster.

Also, how well does Up Smash kill? Apparently it does 17% total now according to the Falco Discord when they checked it recently. The extra damage could let it kill sooner assuming its knockback wasn't reduced or changed in a way that made it weaker overall.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Chibi-Chan , should have asked this earlier, but how does Falco feel mobility-wise? Melee Falco had average ground speed, same 1.5 run as Mario, but was below average in Brawl and definitely below average in Smash 4 since Mario jumped up to a 1.6 run speed. A lot of characters in Ultimate seem faster, but relative speed matters as well.

If Falco has a run speed around Mario's in Ultimate, then that would be fine as he'd have average run speed.

I figure his dash which is not to be confused with run speed is still good as it always has been. In Smash 4, he had the third fastest dash under Little Mac and Fox. Same deal with walk speed which he always was relatively fast in.

Air speed probably isn't good, but aerial acceleration might be good if Smash 4's patch was carried over, however, it might be difficult to tell, so the numbers will have to wait.

This doesn't need a definite answer and I don't expect one, but if you could compare Falco's movement, mainly horizontally, with Mario's, that would be appreciated. Post-Melee, Falco's horizontal movement wasn't so good. Melee at least had wavedashing to make his movement more flexible and both Melee and Brawl Falco didn't care about their run speed when they had auto-cancel on Blaster. Smash 4 Falco didn't have that luxury and because his run speed wasn't changed significantly, he ended up relatively slower in that game compared to in Melee and Brawl and to the characters who used to have a run speed similar to his, but became faster.

Also, how well does Up Smash kill? Apparently it does 17% total now according to the Falco Discord when they checked it recently. The extra damage could let it kill sooner assuming its knockback wasn't reduced or changed in a way that made it weaker overall.

Just for you, crappy handheld videos:

Mario run speed pic.twitter.com/sNppgycfIK

— Chibi Chan (@chibichannya) November 28, 2018

Falco run speed. pic.twitter.com/NRrPa2Xout

— Chibi Chan (@chibichannya) November 28, 2018

Falco Upsmash on mario KOs at 116% on FD training mode.

 

[Ffamran]

Mario's run looks faster than Falco's. If Mario's run is the same as in Smash 4 as in Ultimate at 1.6, then Falco looks like he could be above 1.5 to around 1.55. It doesn't look like a 1.472 (Smash 4 Falco) or a 1.5 (Melee Falco) run speed and back during the E3 build and trailers, Falco was shown running with Luigi and they had a similar pace and Luigi had a 1.5 run speed in Smash 4. Now, if Mario's run speed was increased again and it's, say, 1.65 to 1.7, then it could be possible that Falco (and Luigi) have a run speed around 1.6. I also remember Wii Fit Trainer looking like she runs even faster than in Smash 4 where she had a 1.696 run speed.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Mario's run looks faster than Falco's. If Mario's run is the same as in Smash 4 as in Ultimate at 1.6, then Falco looks like he could be above 1.5 to around 1.55. It doesn't look like a 1.472 (Smash 4 Falco) or a 1.5 (Melee Falco) run speed and back during the E3 build and trailers, Falco was shown running with Luigi and they had a similar pace and Luigi had a 1.5 run speed in Smash 4. Now, if Mario's run speed was increased again and it's, say, 1.65 to 1.7, then it could be possible that Falco (and Luigi) have a run speed around 1.6. I also remember Wii Fit Trainer looking like she runs even faster than in Smash 4 where she had a 1.696 run speed.

I can run Falco and Mario side-by-side, but I wouldn't be able to record it! Need both hands.

 

[Ffamran]

I can run Falco and Mario side-by-side, but I wouldn't be able to record it! Need both hands.

It's fine. The game will be out next week and it shouldn't take that long for people to find most of the movement values.

I just remembered this, but have you tried to frame sync any of the other aerials besides Falco's Nair and Fair as I asked about them? For Falco, this is mainly for his Dair which might not work depending on what its hit lag modifiers are in Ultimate and maybe that it's weaker in Ultimate compared to in the previous games. Here's the whole article on frame syncing: https://smashboards.com/threads/frame-syncing.434603/.

And here's what I'm wondering about specifically for Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHWz-9F7cQ&feature=youtu.be. If this is still in for Falco or any other character like I remember one post on the Wolf boards saying landing Dair can lead to good follow-ups because of how much hit stun it does, then that would be pretty awesome as something Smash 4 players who used frame syncs often would be able to carry over. Falco in particular as far as you noted, probably lost his Nair chains due to probably a change in its final hit's hit angle, but considering Dair's clean/spike hit is more vertical in its hit angle, not only would it be harder to DI, but I don't remember if it was true or not, but apparently you can't tech grounded spikes anymore in Ultimate. This doesn't really matter for Falco since in Smash 4, they gave it a property where the opponent couldn't tech if they were on the ground, but for other spikes that didn't have this property, this would be useful in general. For instance, Samus's Utilt on grounded opponents in Smash 4 was a good launcher, but the opponent could tech it.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

It's fine. The game will be out next week and it shouldn't take that long for people to find most of the movement values.

I just remembered this, but have you tried to frame sync any of the other aerials besides Falco's Nair and Fair as I asked about them? For Falco, this is mainly for his Dair which might not work depending on what its hit lag modifiers are in Ultimate and maybe that it's weaker in Ultimate compared to in the previous games. Here's the whole article on frame syncing: https://smashboards.com/threads/frame-syncing.434603/.

And here's what I'm wondering about specifically for Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHWz-9F7cQ&feature=youtu.be. If this is still in for Falco or any other character like I remember one post on the Wolf boards saying landing Dair can lead to good follow-ups because of how much hit stun it does, then that would be pretty awesome as something Smash 4 players who used frame syncs often would be able to carry over. Falco in particular as far as you noted, probably lost his Nair chains due to probably a change in its final hit's hit angle, but considering Dair's clean/spike hit is more vertical in its hit angle, not only would it be harder to DI, but I don't remember if it was true or not, but apparently you can't tech grounded spikes anymore in Ultimate. This doesn't really matter for Falco since in Smash 4, they gave it a property where the opponent couldn't tech if they were on the ground, but for other spikes that didn't have this property, this would be useful in general. For instance, Samus's Utilt on grounded opponents in Smash 4 was a good launcher, but the opponent could tech it.

Yeah that Samus utilt is the most satisfying move to land! And yes, I believe all grounded spikes are untechable.

That thread gave me flashbacks to practicing the Smash4Falco Dair autocancel thingy @_@ (think it was this). I don't really think Falco needs this mechanic so much since you can already combo anything you want after Dair ground-spike. Gonna be a lot of time in the lab trying to get those extra frames @_@. Think ima pass on this one.

Smash 4 Falco attempting to Dair you on stage was tantamount to suicide. Don't think that tech ever got off the ground because of the risks.

Now it's a solid option if you cross-up with a lot of reward.


EDIT: We got this http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/AirSpeed . Ffamran . So is there any improvement?

 

[Ffamran]

I don't really think Falco needs this mechanic so much since you can already combo anything you want after Dair ground-spike.

I view it as more of the mechanic being found as something that paved the way for more options in general for all characters. Ultimate Falco might not get as much out of it compared to Smash 4 Falco where frame synced Nair allowed him to chain them and combo into other moves, but it could be useful. What I could see happening is if this works for Dair, then he could get a few more frames to do other stuff or go for something like frame synced Dair to grab for a different setup as shown in the video for Smash 4. Falling Nair to Up Smash already works, but frame sync Dair to Up Smash might make it easier for Falco to hit shorter characters if he pops them up a bit and can act fast enough from frame sync Dair to land Up Smash.

EDIT: We got this http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/AirSpeed . Ffamran Ffamran . So is there any improvement?

In raw numbers, Ultimate Falco has the highest air speed, run speed, and possibly aerial acceleration compared to his Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 selves.

So far, this is what we know. Aerial acceleration, dash speed, fall and fast-fall speed, gravity, and walk speed are unknown among other things like aerial deceleration, air friction, and traction.

Attribute||||Launch |1.0.8
Air speed|0.977|0.83|0.893|0.893|0.93
Aerial acceleration|N/A|N/A|0.07|0.07|0.09
Fall speed|1.8|3.1|1.708|1.8|1.8
Fast-fall speed|2.88|3.5|2.3912|2.88|2.88
Gravity|N/A|0.17|0.112|0.13|0.13
Dash speed|N/A|N/A|1.9|1.9|1.9
Run speed|1.619|1.5|1.432|1.472|1.472
Walk speed|1.344|1.4|1.28|1.28|1.28
Traction|N/A|0.08|0.065|0.065|0.065
Weight|82|80|82|82|82

From Smash 4 to Ultimate, Falco's run speed went up 0.147 and from Melee, 0.119. Compared to Smash 4, Ultimate Falco would have been average in run speed. Since Mario's run speed was increased again to 1.76 from Smash 4's 1.6, however, Ultimate Falco would still be below-average in run speed like Brawl and Smash 4 Falco even though Ultimate Mario's run speed is pretty damn fast in general and Ultimate Falco would also be a fairly fast runner as well. The difference between Falco and Mario in each game would be 0 for Melee since he shared the same 1.5 run speed as Mario; 0.068 for Brawl where Mario kept his 1.5 run speed; 0.128 in Smash 4; and 0.141 in Ultimate. Ultimate Falco has a larger difference in run speed compared to Mario, but for all intents and purposes, I think that despite him still having a below-average run speed, 1.619 is good enough in that the speed alone is much better than his 1.432 to 1.472 run speed in Brawl and Smash 4. The other thing is that his dash has always been good. It could still be 1.9 in Ultimate and be good considering his run speed is faster now.

As for air speed, it's a little over Smash 4 Bayonetta, Corrin, and Wii Fit Trainer's air speed of 0.97 and Fox and Mii Swordfighter's 0.96. That said, it looked like he was able to "move in the air" pretty well from your and other footage featuring Falco. If he kept his aerial acceleration from 1.0.8 Smash 4, then maybe that increase of air speed in Ultimate was enough to do that or maybe his aerial acceleration and perhaps deceleration was changed in Ultimate. We'll have to wait and see.

Basically, Ultimate Falco should be more mobile horizontally compared to in the last games except probably in walk speed since Melee Falco takes that with a 0.1 difference between his run and walk speed, however, he might still be a bit slow considering the other character's changes. If his fall speed and/or gravity were increased again, then excluding Melee for obvious reasons, he should also be more mobile vertically as he has the lowest jump frame and would have the fastest downward vertical movement. Once again, relatively, this is dependent on the other characters. For instance, Brawl Wolf's fall speed and gravity were higher than Falco's and Smash 4 Falco was given Brawl Wolf's fall speed and gravity.

The last thing is Falco's the only one whose weight hasn't changed out of the Star Fox characters. Fox went down again from 79 in Smash 4 to 77 in Ultimate which puts him closer to his Melee weight of 75. Brawl Fox had a weight of 80. Wolf went from a weight of 102 to 92 which fits his Star Fox 64 (3D) and Zero design as Assault and Command Wolf looked bulkier to me. Falco stayed the same since Brawl's addition of 2.

Edit: Walk speed is up: http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/WalkSpeed. Increased by 0.064 and is 0.056 away from his Melee walk speed. Compared to his run speed, it's 0.275 slower.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Fall speed for Falco and among others were unchanged according to this: https://twitter.com/Virum_SD/status/1068329645467148288. This also means Falco and Wolf now share fall speeds. Fast-fall speed might be the same if the percentage change wasn't altered for Ultimate.

As of this edit, the Wolf boards noted Wolf's gravity as having been unchanged from Brawl and Falco was given Wolf's fall speed and gravity values in Smash 4: https://smashboards.com/threads/spe...bject-to-change-before-retail-version.457242/. This might also be another thing they will share, but for now, it will still be left as "N/A" until Ultimate Falco's gravity value is confirmed.

Additionally, air acceleration, max and base, might be significantly higher in Ultimate than in the previous games if they did not make any typos.

They also noted that traction is higher in Ultimate than in the previous games as the only character with traction lower than 0.1 is Luigi who has has a traction value of 0.096. For comparison, Ultimate Luigi's traction is 0.016 higher than Melee Falco's. So, expect Ultimate Falco's traction to be significantly higher than in Brawl and Smash 4 and higher than in Melee. Ultimate Wolf's traction was listed as 0.11: https://smashboards.com/threads/spe...e-before-retail-version.457242/#post-22782717.