Q&A Ultimate Falco: Gameplay & General Discussion

Ffamran

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#1
Let's get started! Talk about Falco in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Discuss his gameplay, ask questions about him, whatever.

Here's his introductory video on the official website.

As a starting point, animation changes and his new Final Smash shown in the Smash Ultimate's Direct and in his introductory video.
For gameplay changes, well, that's going to mainly speculation and guesses for now. For one, we can tell Falco's Blaster has less recovery in Ultimate compared to Smash 4, Brawl, and Melee, but not exactly by how much unless you want to try and count the frames. We can also tell his rapid jab, like other characters' rapids jabs, are much faster, but unless something goes horribly wrong like in Smash 4 where it had the highest SDI modifier of x1.2, higher than Greninja's x1.1, and the second lowest damage per hit at 0.4%, above Bayonetta's 0.3%, Falco's rapid jab frame data could be bad enough it still hurt his rapid jab's ability to connect properly. Probably isn't the case, though.
 
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Nohbl

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#3
translation: n***a can't dab no more.
Looks slick though.
It looks sick.
Tight as hell.
>mfw no longer prefer the air :033::224:
For one, we can tell Falco's Blaster has less recovery in Ultimate compared to Smash 4
Yes. But as we all know, it needs to be land cancelled to be truly worthwhile.
Whole time, my dude been gettin' it on with Wii Fit.

Look at this jack:

w4SmGXn.png


His best look yet, easily.
Feathers are too light though.
And I'mma need my colors:
falco-legacy-costumes.png

A big concern of mine is how he will sound (I would be pleased with Brawl-esque or Melee import); another, whether we're going to get a remix to this hotness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hO24OxzIII
 
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Ffamran

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#4
Yes. But as we all know, it needs to be land cancelled to be truly worthwhile.
Not necessarily. At least in the air at least. Anyone having a projectile with basically zero recovery frames would be busted, especially if the start-up is fast and the range is pretty decent, around full screen to half. Also, knockback, hit stun, or pushback of some, but that's mainly a Melee and Brawl Fox thing since other fighting games don't have auto-canceled projectiles and those who do have projectile that don't have knockback, usually have some other option like Bayonetta's main projectile is her neutral special, but she can add in projectiles for damage by holding down any of her normals.

So, the issue with Falco's Blaster is that before Smash 4, Falco relied on auto-canceling to have low recovery on his Blaster. If he used it on the ground or in the air and didn't land, it had high recovery. That was heavily apparent in Smash 4 where auto-canceled projectiles was removed, so Falco had to deal with his Blaster's recovery that was always there since Melee, but worsened starting in Brawl. In Melee, Falco's Blaster recovery was 35 frames on the ground and 30 in the air, so about half a second since Smash is a 60 FPS game. Not that bad all things considered, but nothing in comparison to auto-canceling it.

In Brawl, his Blaster recovery was increased to 45 (+10) on the ground and 32 (+2) in the air. You rarely if ever see Brawl Falco use Blaster on the ground, but 45 frames for a projectile that can't kill because it has set knockback and only does 3% per hit is pretty bad. 45 recovery frames to me say something that should be very damaging and some of the stronger projectiles do have recovery frames around that or even lower which begs the question of why was Blaster's recovery increased so much in Brawl and Smash 4. In the air, though, I'd say it was okay. Nothing special, but nothing terrible.

Smash 4 made it even worse where Blaster's recovery was now 48 (+3) on the ground and 41 (+9) in the air. Auto-canceled projectiles were removed, so he couldn't get around a 48 recovery projectile on the ground and using it in the air was even worse than in Melee and Brawl. The best part about this was that Falco's Blaster including his customs were never really changed. There was a change for its rate of fire in 1.0.4, but nobody ever documented it, so nobody really knows what happened. Other projectiles, though, like Fox's was changed. I think it was 1.1.0? when it happened along with Greninja's and a couple others. Fox's Blaster ended up being superior to Falco's Burst Blaster in every way. It used to be that Falco's Burst Blaster had less range, but lower recovery than Fox's Blaster, but the lowered recovery on Fox's changed it to Burst Blaster exists and it's worse than Fox's Blaster. Cloud's Blade Beam and Ryu's Hadouken have 45 recovery frames in Smash 4, but it does more damage in general, has higher, not-set knockback, and they can vary its speed (Ryu-only) and properties (Shakunetesu and Limit Break). They can't fire it continuously like Falco can, but that didn't really matter when they have a projectile that can keep people out when they want too unlike Falco.

If Smash 4 Falco had Melee Falco's Blaster recovery, he probably would have done much better. In Smash 4, Mario's Fireball has 36 recovery frames and Lucas's PK Fire has 32, so around their range, but with the ability to fire multiple times in one sitting. It's not as great as having say, 30 or less recovery at all times, but it would have been way better than having 48 on the ground and 41 in the air.

Ultimate Falco's Blaster looks like it has less recovery, but by how much we'll have to wait on. Now, I'm going to throw out two magical numbers, 27 and 23. On the ground 27 recovery frames would be like Smash 4 Luigi's Fireball, but Falco's would presumably have longer range and he gets to fire multiple times at the cost of set knockback and lower damage per hit. It pales in comparison to auto-canceled lasers, but it would be very usable all things considered. In the air, 23 recovery frames would be pretty good. Falco would be able to cover his landing by firing several lasers without needing to go through its start-up like and quickly get out of its recovery. Unlike Fox, his lasers would have hit stun, unlike Bayonetta, they would stagger downwards and have travel time to linger in the air more, unlike Mega Man, he can fire as many as he wants since Mega Man can only fire three before needing to pause a bit, and unlike Bowser and Charizard's, they would have horizontal range. I could also see him doing something like drop down lasers and forcing his opponent to recover higher much more safely since his Blaster's recovery would be significantly lower than in the previous games.

TL;DR: I think Falco's Blaster having low recovery, < 30 frames overall, would make it more versatile. It would not have the offensive and defensive capabilities of auto-canceled lasers, but as a projectile without it, it would be a good projectile. At least it would be more usable than in Smash 4 and raw frame data-wise, it would beat Melee's Blaster which only wins by having the ability to auto-cancel and the different mechanics and capabilities Falco has in Melee.

I've been meaning to do this, but when the game comes out and datamining and frame data collection begins, I will add it to Falco's compiled frame data throughout Smash and post it on the Ultimate Falco boards. Part of it is history and being able to see how Falco changed or didn't change in each game while the other part is to be able to clearly see what caused him to be like this and that in each game. For example, the Blaster recovery above readily explains why it performed so horribly in Smash 4. Stacking more recovery on a move that already had high recovery, at least in Brawl, and no real kill power was begging for trouble once the one thing that gave it low recovery, auto-canceling, was removed. Context should also be taken into consideration like Falco's higher fall speed in Melee is relative considering the shift in fall speed in Brawl and Smash 4 and people have been saying knockback is different in Ultimate, something about knockback acceleration, then Ultimate Falco's knockback numbers could be drastically different in Ultimate.

For those who are interested, here is the spreadsheet covering Falco's frame data from Melee to Smash 4: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n5FLoDecOaKwbwY4gJcM1RRK_81ibRSpOcIRAHWPYGs/pubhtml#.

Speaking of Blaster, I missed this in his introductory video, but they changed Falco's holstering animation. In Brawl and Smash 4, Falco would bring it up and shove it back into the holster, but in Ultimate, Falco quickly twirls it back into the holster. I say quickly since once the Blaster is in, Falco immediately enters Falco Phantasm's startup.

Reflector's catch might be polished too which has been happening since Brawl. Its animation has been refined over and over throughout the series. The other thing is that I'm wondering if Falco's new rapid jab finisher animation is supposed to be a reference to his and Fox's old Side Smash animation in Melee. The difference here is that it's a rapid jab finisher and Falco lands on the kicking leg and does a backflip after it. The part of the foot he's hitting with might be different too. At least with the new animation in Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate for Fox, Side Smash seems to be hitting with the side and blade of the foot while with Ultimate Falco's rapid jab finisher, it looks like he's hitting with his heel. Here's Falco's Side Smash from Melee.


A big concern of mine is how he will sound (I would be pleased with Brawl-esque or Melee import); another, whether we're going to get a remix to this hotness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hO24OxzIII
Considering he's based off of his appearance in Zero, I think they're going to bring back Mark Lund, his voice actor in Star Fox 64 3D, Star Fox Zero, and Smash 4. If that's the case, then Fox and Wolf will have their Zero voice actors too, Mike West and Ja Green, respectively.

Fox I think is confirmed to have Mike West, his original 64, 64 3D, Zero, and Smash 4 voice actor, come back since the new Starlink game by Ubisoft showed a trailer with Star Fox as part of the Switch's exclusive content and Fox's voice was definitely Mike West's. West changed his performance for Fox in Zero after Smash 4 where people complained about him sounding weird. I thought it was fine since that's how Fox sounded in 64 and figured they wanted to go with how he and Falco sounded back in the day. That said, Smash 4's audio for Fox and Falco felt off compared to 64 3D, so maybe it was just an issue with Smash 4's recording. Anyway, Fox's voice in Zero is a bit deeper-sounding that makes him sound more mature, like a post-Star Fox 64 Fox, but not Assault/Brawl Fox whose voice was pretty smooth.

On the Japanese side of things, I don't think know about Fox, but Falco's usually voiced by Hisao Egawa. The only time Falco wasn't voiced by him was in 64 3D and Zero where he's voiced by Kosuke Takaguchi who also voiced Wolf in those games according to Wikipedia. Part of me feels like they might bring back Egawa because he's voiced Falco for so long, but if they do go with recent appearances and also maybe budget, then they might get Takaguchi to voice Falco and Wolf for Ultimate.

The reason I brought up Japanese was that I'm curious if they're going to let use select the character's voice. Marth being voiced in English is cool, but some people do prefer Hikaru Midorikawa for Marth. By some, I think most people would have been accustomed to hearing Midorikawa's voice for Marth in any appearance since Yuri Lowenthal only recently voiced Marth starting in Code Name: S.T.E.A.M. where he had a guest appearance. Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 let you select character voices, so people who prefer Dante and Wesker's English voices and Akuma and Ryu's Japanese voices can have it work like that when they play. I think Street Fighter V might allow that too.
 
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Nohbl

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#5
Falco's usually voiced by Hisao Egawa. The only time Falco wasn't voiced by him was in 64 3D and Zero where he's voiced by Kosuke Takaguchi who also voiced Wolf in those games according to Wikipedia. Part of me feels like they might bring back Egawa because he's voiced Falco for so long
I'm aware. I was unimpressed with his performance for every succeeding Smash game. My opinion: Melee >(close to =, yet far) Brawl > tr4sh.
Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 let you select character voices, so people who prefer Dante and Wesker's English voices and Akuma and Ryu's Japanese voices can have it work like that when they play.
It's becoming a standard feature slowly. DOA5 has it. Really, these developers need to stop allowing the dubs to be inferior to the original audio.
 

Ffamran

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#6
I'm aware. I was unimpressed with his performance for every succeeding Smash game. My opinion: Melee >(close to =, yet far) Brawl > tr4sh.
If it's about Egawa, he is getting older, so it might be harder for him to do Falco's voice. At least with David Hayter, I remember him saying that doing Snake's raspy voice was hard on him, especially in MGS4 where he had to play an aging and basically dying Snake. In Ultimate, it should be easier on him since it's MGS2 Snake.

It's becoming a standard feature slowly. DOA5 has it. Really, these developers need to stop allowing the dubs to be inferior to the original audio.
I think the blame lies more on direction and voice directors than the game developers. For game developers who have to deal with different languages, it could be harder for them to articulate what they want out of the voice actors for their characters and stuff will go missing through translations since languages don't always have the same meanings and words. There's also the issue of localizations changing character for better or worse like how Gregor in Fire Emblem Awakening was this weird, badass, inexplicably Russian guy in the English dub, but was considering a stereotypical and lame cool old guy in the original Japanese audio. Lip syncing is another issue too. If the developers don't or can't reanimate things because of time and budget, then the dub voice actors have to try and fit everything or straight up ignore it. An early example was Yuna in Final Fantasy X where apparently the English voice actress tried to match the character's lips for her lines which made English Yuna sound weird because of the pacing issue of her speech.

Anyway, I found another thing and it's Falco's new forward roll animation where instead of doing a cartwheel like Fox, he actually does a forward roll ending in a pose. It's a blink and you'll miss it thing since he's in the middle of its animation when the Squid Sisters are shown in the Smash Ultimate's Direct.

Apparently, YouTube has a frame-by-frame viewer and I decided to use it to check Falco's moves. Reminder: this is from a demo build, so things are subject to change, human error, and that YouTube's frame-by-frame viewer not being completely accurate. The final build and datamining for frame data will be more accurate and complete.

The Squid Sisters section in the Smash Ultimate Direct: grounded Blaster's startup and recovery, Reflector startup, jump, Dair and Dair landing lag, and Fair.

Grounded Blaster's startup I think is frame 11. The starting frame is when Falco begins to draw his Blaster and the hit point I'm considering is when the Blaster's recoil is at its highest: up to his beak. From the draw to the recoil is 11 frames which would be in line with his Smash 4's Blaster startup and at least close to Brawl's 12 frame startup. Fortunately, the Falco in this section chooses to fire inconsecutively; fire Blaster once, stop, and fire again. This lets us obtain his recovery frames for grounded Blaster. Grounded Blaster's recovery is 28 frames. From the startup, frame 11, to when Falco holsters his Blaster is 39 total frames. The frame right after it, the FAF and his idle frame, is frame 40. The 41st frame is when Falco begins to use Blaster again. Anyway, 40 FAF minus 11 startup frames equals 29 recovery frames. That is significantly faster than in all the Smash games Falco has been in. In Melee, grounded Blaster had 35 recovery frames (-6), in Brawl it had 45 (-16), and in Smash 4 it had 48 (-19). Blaster having 29 recovery frames puts Ultimate Falco's Blaster recovery on par with Smash 4 Fox's Blaster recovery which has the same startup and FAF, therefore, the same 29 recovery frames. Aerial Blaster's startup and recovery is faster in each of the games, but by how much is uncertain. Startup can be guessed as 9 since that's his Smash 4 aerial Blaster startup and it seems like Ultimate grounded Blaster's startup is the same as in Smash 4. In Smash 4, aerial Blaster had 7 less frames of recovery, 41 recovery frames; in Brawl, 12 less, 32 recovery frames, and in Melee, 5 less, 30 recovery frames. Going with the lowest change would give it 9 startup and 24 recovery which is pretty good. Going with Smash 4 would give it 22 recovery which is even better and Brawl would be insane since he'd have 17 recovery.

Reflector I think is frame 6. The starting frame is Reflector is activated on Falco's person. It hits the Inkling girl on frame 6. Falco gets hit after it, the second attack from the Inkling girl, so recovery can't be obtained here. He also used it pointblank for some reason and that did no knockback against the Inkling girl. So, 1 frame slower than in Smash 4 and 2 frames slower than in Brawl. The reflect startup frame seems to be 1 since Falco immediately activates it after he finishes landing from the Inkling girl's first attack.

Just to confirm, Falco jumps on frame 4 and in Zelda's section and another video with Nairo playing Zelda, she jumps on frame 4 as well. There was a thread on Reddit that said jumps were frame 3, but this might not be the case and it's frame 4. Regardless, Falco's jump is faster and closer to his frame 3 jump in Melee; in Brawl and Smash 4, his and Zelda's jump for that matter, were frame 6.

Dair's startup is frame 10. The starting frame is where Falco suddenly shifts from his spin in his neutral/forward jump to leaning towards his back and the hit point is when his leg is fully extended. From start to hit, that is 10 frames. Compared to Melee and Brawl, that's 5 frames slower and compared to Smash 4, it's 6 frames faster. Dair's landing lag seems to be 23, unchanged from Smash 4. The starting point to the ending point is when there's a puff of smoke when Falco touches the ground to when Falco returns to idle, the frame after he turns himself to face his front. That's 23 frames, but with people saying aerials have lower landing lag, I'm not sure if Falco could have moved at any point during his landing lag. It's possible that he could have and he could have acted at say, frame 18 instead. Regardless, the startup decrease is much, much appreciated even if it ends up being superficial with everyone else possibly gaining faster spike Dairs compared to in Smash 4.

Fair is frame 8 on startup. The starting point is the frame after his jump animation where Falco suddenly leans forward and the hit point is when the sparkle appears on his beak. From start to hit, that is 8 frames. Compared to Brawl, it's 2 frames slower and compared to Smash 4, it's 4 frames faster than launch and 2 frames faster than post-patch 1.0.8.

Falco's introductory video: Reflector reflect and estimated recovery, Blaster startup, rate of fire, and recovery, Falco Phantasm startup, and dash attack.

Reflector's reflect startup frame is probably the same as in Brawl and Smash 4. It's activated on frame 1 and Lucas's PK Fire is reflected on frame 2. The clip ends before we see Falco return to idle. From assumed frame 1 reflect startup to the the last frame of the clip are 41 frames. If we go with the Smash Ultimate Direct where Reflector was shown hitting on frame 6, we could guess the recovery. If it's the same as Smash 4, 37 recovery frames, then there would 2 more frames remaining. If it's like Brawl and Melee which incidentally shares the same recovery, it would be 4 more frames. Combined with the Smash Ultimate Direct, Reflector's frame data would be roughly 6 startup, 1 reflect startup, and ~37 recovery.

This more of a reconfirmation for grounded Blaster. The starting frame is when Falco begins to draw his Blaster and the end frame is when the recoil is at its peak. That's frame 11 like in the Smash Ultimate Direct. Cloud gets hit on frame 19 if you're curious, so 8 frames to get to him from some mid-range distance. The next laser is fired on frame 35, 25 frames later, Cloud gets hit again on frame 39, 4 frames, and frame 65 is when Falco holsters his Blaster and the frame following, frame 66, is when he enters Falco Phantasm's startup. So, from the second laser to his next move is 31 recovery frames. +3 than when he fired only once. With his grounded Blaster's recovery being significantly reduced, I could see them putting in a check, increased recovery frames for consecutive shots, to prevent Falco from just sitting in place and shooting. I think, but I am not sure, this was confirmed for Bayonetta where if you used her Bullet Arts and landed with Nair, she would have higher landing lag. Still, if it's really 31 recovery frames for two shots, then that's all right. Now, for his rate of fire, I believe it's an internal value that dictates when Falco can input again for a consecutive shot, so it's probably not +25 frames to continue firing again, but something higher during Falco's first shot. +25 frames would be the similar to Melee's +24 and 15 frames faster than in Smash 4 which was +40 frames per shot.

Falco Phantasm seems to be frame 19. The starting frame is when Falco suddenly shifts from holstering his Blaster to him readying his Falco Phantasm pose. From there to when Cloud gets hit is 19 frames. Falco himself starts moving forward on frame 18. So, unless the hit didn't register because Cloud wasn't close enough, Falco Phantasm is 1 frame slower on startup than in Melee and Smash 4 and 2 frame slower than in Brawl. It's not really a big deal. Like with Reflector, the clip cuts on frame 53 before we see Falco return to idle. If it's like Smash 4, then will have about 7 more remaining frames to his Falco Phantasm before he's back to idle, but that seems a bit too much. He looks like he's about 4 frames before he can do whatever he wants. Anyway, if it's like Smash 4, then there should be about 5 active frames and 60 total frames which would give it a recovery of around 39. Give or take a few due to the uncertainty of it all.

Rapid jab finisher has a startup of 5, the same as in Smash 4. The starting frame is when Falco suddenly shifts from his rapid jab animation to raising his right leg for an axe kick. Wolf gets hit on frame 5. I'm not sure how to obtain recovery from this because of the hit stun. The animation change also makes me hesitant to guess because it's nothing like his old one in Smash 4.

Dash attack's startup is frame 7. The starting frame is when Falco shifts from his running animation to what looks like him stopping on his kicking leg and preparing to jump. Fox gets hit on frame 7 when Falco fully extends his kicking leg. Like rapid jab finisher, I don't know how to check its recovery because of the hit lag. I also don't want to guess based on his dash attack in the previous games since it seems like Falco travels a much shorter distance which the camera zoom doesn't help.

TL;DR: What frame data of Falco I could find using YouTube's frame-by-frame viewer.
Move Startup Recovery
Jab 1 2 N/A
Jab 2 3 N/A
Rapid Jab 5 N/A
Rapid Jab Finisher 5 ~42 to 45
Dash attack 7 N/A
Fair 8 N/A
Dair 10 23 (landing)
Blaster ~11 ~29 (+3, second shot)
Falco Phantasm 19 ~39
Reflector 6 (1 reflect) ~37
Jump 3 N/A


Edit: Incorrect jump frames. It's 3 as of the E3 demo and not 4. The first airborne frame is not counted. Went back to Smash 4 and checked KoF XIII and XIV to confirm their jump frames with their frame data sheets.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Jab 1 is shown in the current footage so far. The first one is Falco's part of the Everyone is Here section which is apparently in 30 FPS despite the entire video, the Smash Ultimate Direct, being available to watch at 60 FPS and is 60 FPS when they get to the gameplay section. The second one is his introductory video where it cuts to Falco doing his jab combo on Wolf. The cut is on the first frame of its startup as Wolf gets hit on frame 2. Jab 2 can be seen when Falco suddenly shifts from his jab 1's animation to turning his left hand for his follow-up swipe. From there, the first startup frame of jab 2, Wolf gets hit on frame 3.

Rapid jab's startup can be seen as well. The starting frame is when Falco suddenly turns to his right from his jab 2 animation. The blue attack effect also disappears during this frame. From there, Wolf gets hit on frame 5. In general, rapid jab hits are faster in Ultimate than in the previous games as Falco's rapid jab hits Wolf every 2 frames. As Falco is hitting someone, I am not exactly sure how the hit stun would affect this, but I can say that the gaps between Falco's rapid jab is probably not 4 frames like in Brawl and Smash 4 or 5 like in Melee. It might actually be 2 frames similar to Fox's whiffed rapid jab and presumably many others in Ultimate. Fox's whiffed rapid jab can be seen here. View it frame by frame and assuming the hitbox is refreshed every time Fox kicks, when his leg is extended, then it's a hit every 2 frames. Also, Wolf gets hit 9 times with rapid jab.

Rapid jab finisher's total frames might be 47 to 50 frames. When Falco hits Wolf with rapid jab finisher, there are 14 frames before Falco's leg noticeably moves down. If this hit lag, the 14 frames, is ignored and the frame when Falco's leg moves considered the 6th frame, its second active frame, from its 5 frame startup, then Falco returns to idle at frames 47 to 50. Falco stands still for a few moments after rapid jab finisher, so it's unknown if he could have acted earlier. Regardless, assuming his rapid jab finisher has the same 2 active frames as in Smash 4, then Falco's rapid jab finisher would have 42 to 45 recovery frames. That is around 8 to 11 more recovery frames. Part of the blame can be attributed to the backflip animation as part of its recovery which makes up about 20 frames of the animation, but the other part can be attributed to when Falco settles down after kicking, he lingers there for a bit. At the frame when the blue attack effect disappears, Falco stays there for 12 frames before beginning his backflip.
 
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Nohbl

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#7
If it's about Egawa, he is getting older, so it might be harder for him to do Falco's voice.
In what way?
I think the blame lies more on direction and voice directors than the game developers.
Do they not count as game developers? "Developers" is a catch-all term as I'm using it.
For game developers who have to deal with different languages, it could be harder for them to articulate what they want out of the voice actors for their characters and stuff will go missing through translations since languages don't always have the same meanings and words.
But this is Nintendo, who have an American division. Not an excuse in this case.
Lip syncing is another issue too.
Really, I'm complaining about voices. The voices have been bad. Accents are another issue. SSBB Wolf had a good voice and a good accent, in my opinion. Even if he had a different accent, a worse one, he still would have had a good voice. SSB4 Fox had a bad voice, but an okay accent. Having a bad voice is just more of a problem.

Just to confirm, Falco jumps on frame 4 and in Zelda's section and another video with Nairo playing Zelda, she jumps on frame 4 as well.
That's a weird change. His jump was frame 5 in Melee and longer than that in Brawl onward, so it seems as though they did want to speed things up. But Foxs jumpsquat of 4 frames was the fastest one could go in tr4sh, so I'm curious to see what the limit here is.
 

Ffamran

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#8
Do they not count as game developers? "Developers" is a catch-all term as I'm using it.
They are part of the development of a game, but they're not always part of the development team. Some studios have dedicated voice acting divisions while others don't and they have to hire another company to do that. For games and other stuff like anime, films, etc., that use other companies for voice acting, then they're going to have to rely on the voice directors, translators, localizers, and voice actors to make sure things will turn out well.

But this is Nintendo, who have an American division. Not an excuse in this case.
I don't think Nintendo of America actually develops games unlike Nintendo of Japan, the main company. They do have Treehouse, their translating team for games into English, French, and Latin Spanish according and also Q&A and product management to the wiki. There's also games like Xenoblade which are handled by the European division for localization, so things aren't consistent. I don't even know who does Smash's localization and Fire Emblem comes to mind as being localized by different teams. Treehouse did Blazing Blade aka Fire Emblem overseas, Sacred Stones, Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn, Fates, and Heroes. Of those games, the Tellius games (PoR and RD), Fates, and Heroes were voice acted where Fates garned some controversy with the localization, but its writing was considered bad in the original too. Blazing Blade also had some things translated incorrectly like the final boss's dialogue was incorrect. The remake of Shadow Dragon, Fire Emblem Awakening, and Shadows of Valentia on the other hand were localized by 8-4 and Shadows of Valentia was heavily praised for its localization. Basically, it's not consistent and it's not always NoA and Treehouse did this.

Anyway, my point wasn't about the quality of localization, but the differences in languages. Word play, so stuff like puns, comes to mind where you can't always have the same thing work in another languages. Sometimes it's trivial like a joke goes lost in translation, but if a part of the dialogue hinges on word play for foreshadowing or something, then the localizers will have to figure out something if can't be translated without being nonsensical or clunky in the localized language. The part about lip syncing is also related to this since a sentence or even a word in one language might be longer or shorter than in another one and that can screw up the timing of things if the developers aren't willing or can't reanimate the scene.

Really, I'm complaining about voices. The voices have been bad. Accents are another issue. SSBB Wolf had a good voice and a good accent, in my opinion. Even if he had a different accent, a worse one, he still would have had a good voice. SSB4 Fox had a bad voice, but an okay accent. Having a bad voice is just more of a problem.
I know, but I am also adding in that voice direction can play a role in how voice acting turns out. For me, Smash 4 dropped the ball in sound overall. Except for the new characters and characters given new or updated voices, they reused voices from Brawl and Melee. Bowser and DK's voices clash with their recent appearances where they're more goofy sounding, instead, they sound like Godzilla monster rejects. It's even worse when you place Bowser with Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings. Bowser sounds like a generic monster while Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings sound like they're from the Mario games.

Sonic's new voice, as part of the Sonic franchise getting new voice actors, in Smash 4 apparently wasn't even recorded for the game. They just ripped his voice clips from Sonic games and it just sounds off compared to him actually being voiced in the games where Roger Craig Smith started voicing him or when Jason Griffith previously voiced him and for Brawl.

Sometimes it works like Link, Ganondorf, and Zelda sound fine, but seriously, why are we reusing Melee voices for Bowser and DK? And what the hell happened to Fox and Falco? Fox and Falco are worse when you consider that 64 3D sounded fine. Mike West and Mark Lund as Fox and Falco in that game sounded all right and like in 64 even though they didn't get the original cast back despite those people being alive and possible available for voice acting. Smash 4 comes in and Mike West's Fox sounds weird like it's another character and no 64-based Fox and Mark Lund's Falco sounds disinterested like it was phoned in. Then Star Fox Zero drops and it's like night and day between Smash and Star Fox's recent voice acting.

That's a weird change. His jump was frame 5 in Melee and longer than that in Brawl onward, so it seems as though they did want to speed things up. But Foxs jumpsquat of 4 frames was the fastest one could go in tr4sh, so I'm curious to see what the limit here is.
It's a universal change. I've checked for Falco, Fox, and Zelda and people have already checked for Marth/Lucina and Shulk and noted that they all have frame 4 jumps. Two games that come off the top of my head with universal jump frames are The King of Fighters XIII and XIV which had frame 4 jumps as well. Maybe Street Fighter IV did, but I'd need to check. Different jump frames aren't unusual or uncommon like the new Street Fighter V has different jump frames for Zangief and some of the other heavies, but Smash, prior to Ultimate, is different in that the range was huge. Melee and Brawl had the largest gap at 5 frames; 3 and 8 (Bowser) for Melee and 4 and 9 (Snake) for Brawl. 64 and Smash 4 have a 4 frame gap of 3 and 7 (Link) for 64 and 4 and 8 (Bowser) for Smash 4. Technically 64 had a 5 frame gap too, but giant DK and Metal Mario who have frame 8 jumps aren't normally playable. Ultimate seems to be going for an extreme of everyone has the same 4 frame jump and everyone is going to be more mobile in however way.

That being said, it is a demo build and they could revert back everyone to Smash 4's jump frames or at least do something like heavies have frame 5 jumps while everyone else has frame 4 jumps.
 
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Nohbl

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#9
they reused voices from Brawl and Melee
This was a good thing, considering how characters like Fox turned out, which you note. Should have done it more, or had a bigger budget for voice acting.
I've checked for Falco, Fox, and Zelda and people have already checked for Marth/Lucina and Shulk and noted that they all have frame 4 jumps.
Weird.
Project M had 3 frame gap from 3 frames to 6 frames.
Ultimate seems to be going for an extreme of everyone has the same 4 frame jump and everyone is going to be more mobile in however way.
Bleh.
 

Ffamran

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#10
Yo, some hawk eye posted this on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/8vojyk/fun_fact_falcos_trailer_shows_his_hitboxes_for/, that Falco's laser and Falco Phantasm hitboxes are visible in his trailer.



The SSBwiki does have hitbox gifs of Falco's moves, but not for his laser. This is what aerial Falco Phantasm looks like: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Falco_(SSB4)/Side_special/Default. Kind of similar as they both hit behind him.

A comment in the thread also says that the numbers might be damage and that the white line on Falco Phantasm might be its hit angle: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...falcos_trailer_shows_his_hitboxes_for/e1p564z. It might be true or it might be a coincidence as Falco Phantasm does do 7% on the ground and against grounded foes when used in the air. Blaster, however, might have gotten a damage buff if true as it does 3% in all games, but the tag says 4.

Edit: Yeah, they're there in the trailer. I never noticed it for Falco Phantasm, but did notice there was this red thing on his lasers that I thought was just a new effect on it. Since we can see the hitbox, it looks like Falco's Blaster startup is frame 9 now. The starting frame as with the previous observation is when Falco suddenly shifts from his idle stance to reaching down to his Blaster. From there, the red hitbox with the 4 tag appears on frame 9 which is also the third frame of the muzzle flash -- noting this down for later. The front of it barely peeks out of the muzzle flash. It could be frame 8 assuming the muzzle flash is obscuring it on that frame, but frame 9 is safer bet. Frame 7 also has this red "hitbox" appear, but no numbers, so I'm going to assume that's just a visual effect and not a hitbox. Ground Blaster being frame 9 means it has its aerial startup from Smash 4. That begs the question of what aerial Blaster's startup would be since it's 2 frames faster than ground Blaster in Smash 4 and Brawl. A frame 7 aerial projectile seems a bit silly, but whatever.

Moving on, the first laser hits Cloud on frame 19, so it's at least active for 11 frames. Falco fires again on frame 33, 25 frames later, using the 3 frames muzzle flash as an indicator here since it obscures the hitbox that is visible on the following 34th frame. Cloud gets hit on frame 39 with the second laser. Falco begins to use Falco Phantasm on frame 66. That would give Blaster, after two lasers, 33 recovery frames which is pretty average for a projectile in Smash 4 and I think in general for Smash. It's definitely lower Smash 4's 48 frames and even Melee's 35 frames.

The frame showing Falco Phantasm's hitbox on the picture is frame 23. Frame 24 still shows it being visible and frame 25 looks like when it disappears. Previously, I said that Falco Phantasm was frame 19 and that it might be frame 18 because Cloud was too far away. I looked this time for the red hitbox and there is one on frame 18. At first, you could mistake it for an afterimage of Falco's jumpsuit and there being a weird glitch with a white line, but the frame after it shows the same white line and translucent red visual. So, Falco Phantasm is still frame 18 and with the last active frame appearing to be 24, this also means it gained 2 active frame as in Smash 4, it was 5 active frames meaning its hit frames was 18-22. The increased active frames does lower his recovery a bit, but it's unknown exactly how many total frames are there since as noted before the scene cuts on frame 53 and Falco looks like he has a couple more frames before he can move again. If he acts on frame 61 like in Smash 4, then Falco Phantasm now has around 37 recovery frames.

Finally, it looks like it's only that section of Falco's trailer as the other parts don't show any red hitboxes. It was probably left in accidentally which for us is like a goldmine of information.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: On closer inspection, I think the red "hitbox" on frame 7 and frame 31 for Blaster might be a call for laser to appear as Falco pulls the trigger on those frames and 2 frames later, on frame 9 and frame 33, a laser and its hitbox appear.

Returning to the Squid Sisters of the Direct, it was noted that Blaster had 39 total frames, Falco returning to idle on frame 40, and with the new knowledge that the E3 demo build of Falco's grounded Blaster is 9 frames on startup, his new recovery is 31 frames. Once again, that's lower than Melee's ground Blaster recovery of 35 frames and similar to its aerial recovery of 30 frames. Also, Bowser Jr. gets hit on frame 27. So, lasers are at least active for 18 frames. Probably 33 like in Smash 4 if they keep its range the same, but that doesn't take into account of any travel speed changes.

This is the E3 demo build of Ultimate Falco's updated frame data findings as of July 3rd, 2018. Blaster and Falco Phantasm were updated.
Move Startup Recovery
Jab 1 2 N/A
Jab 2 3 N/A
Rapid Jab 5 N/A
Rapid Jab Finisher 5 ~42 to 45
Dash attack 7 N/A
Fair 8 N/A
Dair 10 23 (landing)
Blaster 9 31 (+2, second shot)
Falco Phantasm 18 ~37
Reflector 6 (1 reflect) ~37
Jump 3 N/A


Edit 3: With a Vengeance: So, a trivial thing I noticed, but Falco's new holstering animation in Ultimate might be his Melee animation, but polished and sped up a bit. In Melee, Falco raises Blaster then twirls it into the holster while in Ultimate, Falco twirls and raises Blaster to holster it in one smooth motion. Melee Falco's Blaster animation is this.

Now, if only they would tone down the recoil animation to resemble Melee's since the current one has Blaster clip into his beak. That, or make it recoil properly instead of sideways. In other words, his Blaster should recoil towards the background instead of up towards his face. Guns don't suddenly recoil like that if you fire them sideways.
 
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#12
e
They are part of the development of a game, but they're not always part of the development team. Some studios have dedicated voice acting divisions while others don't and they have to hire another company to do that. For games and other stuff like anime, films, etc., that use other companies for voice acting, then they're going to have to rely on the voice directors, translators, localizers, and voice actors to make sure things will turn out well.


I don't think Nintendo of America actually develops games unlike Nintendo of Japan, the main company. They do have Treehouse, their translating team for games into English, French, and Latin Spanish according and also Q&A and product management to the wiki. There's also games like Xenoblade which are handled by the European division for localization, so things aren't consistent. I don't even know who does Smash's localization and Fire Emblem comes to mind as being localized by different teams. Treehouse did Blazing Blade aka Fire Emblem overseas, Sacred Stones, Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn, Fates, and Heroes. Of those games, the Tellius games (PoR and RD), Fates, and Heroes were voice acted where Fates garned some controversy with the localization, but its writing was considered bad in the original too. Blazing Blade also had some things translated incorrectly like the final boss's dialogue was incorrect. The remake of Shadow Dragon, Fire Emblem Awakening, and Shadows of Valentia on the other hand were localized by 8-4 and Shadows of Valentia was heavily praised for its localization. Basically, it's not consistent and it's not always NoA and Treehouse did this.

Anyway, my point wasn't about the quality of localization, but the differences in languages. Word play, so stuff like puns, comes to mind where you can't always have the same thing work in another languages. Sometimes it's trivial like a joke goes lost in translation, but if a part of the dialogue hinges on word play for foreshadowing or something, then the localizers will have to figure out something if can't be translated without being nonsensical or clunky in the localized language. The part about lip syncing is also related to this since a sentence or even a word in one language might be longer or shorter than in another one and that can screw up the timing of things if the developers aren't willing or can't reanimate the scene.


I know, but I am also adding in that voice direction can play a role in how voice acting turns out. For me, Smash 4 dropped the ball in sound overall. Except for the new characters and characters given new or updated voices, they reused voices from Brawl and Melee. Bowser and DK's voices clash with their recent appearances where they're more goofy sounding, instead, they sound like Godzilla monster rejects. It's even worse when you place Bowser with Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings. Bowser sounds like a generic monster while Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings sound like they're from the Mario games.

Sonic's new voice, as part of the Sonic franchise getting new voice actors, in Smash 4 apparently wasn't even recorded for the game. They just ripped his voice clips from Sonic games and it just sounds off compared to him actually being voiced in the games where Roger Craig Smith started voicing him or when Jason Griffith previously voiced him and for Brawl.

Sometimes it works like Link, Ganondorf, and Zelda sound fine, but seriously, why are we reusing Melee voices for Bowser and DK? And what the hell happened to Fox and Falco? Fox and Falco are worse when you consider that 64 3D sounded fine. Mike West and Mark Lund as Fox and Falco in that game sounded all right and like in 64 even though they didn't get the original cast back despite those people being alive and possible available for voice acting. Smash 4 comes in and Mike West's Fox sounds weird like it's another character and no 64-based Fox and Mark Lund's Falco sounds disinterested like it was phoned in. Then Star Fox Zero drops and it's like night and day between Smash and Star Fox's recent voice acting.


It's a universal change. I've checked for Falco, Fox, and Zelda and people have already checked for Marth/Lucina and Shulk and noted that they all have frame 4 jumps. Two games that come off the top of my head with universal jump frames are The King of Fighters XIII and XIV which had frame 4 jumps as well. Maybe Street Fighter IV did, but I'd need to check. Different jump frames aren't unusual or uncommon like the new Street Fighter V has different jump frames for Zangief and some of the other heavies, but Smash, prior to Ultimate, is different in that the range was huge. Melee and Brawl had the largest gap at 5 frames; 3 and 8 (Bowser) for Melee and 4 and 9 (Snake) for Brawl. 64 and Smash 4 have a 4 frame gap of 3 and 7 (Link) for 64 and 4 and 8 (Bowser) for Smash 4. Technically 64 had a 5 frame gap too, but giant DK and Metal Mario who have frame 8 jumps aren't normally playable. Ultimate seems to be going for an extreme of everyone has the same 4 frame jump and everyone is going to be more mobile in however way.

That being said, it is a demo build and they could revert back everyone to Smash 4's jump frames or at least do something like heavies have frame 5 jumps while everyone else has frame 4 jumps.
Incorrect; everyone has Frame 3 Jumpsquats in Smash Ultimate; not 4. This is confirmed and is assuming you are talking about jumpsquats; if not carry on :]
 
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Ffamran

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#13

Ffamran

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#15
What about Falco's Phantasm from Ike's Smash Ultimate overview.

https://youtu.be/-aV6h3jWO6c?t=4s

It looks like we have a hitbox at the end of it now
Check my post four posts above yours: https://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-falco-gameplay-general-discussion.455401/post-22178839.

Someone on Smash's subreddit saw that Falco's Blaster and Falco Phantasm hitboxes are visible when he's shown fighting Cloud. This is the image of frame 23 of Falco Phantasm from his trailer.


The hitbox itself seems like its usual, oval-shaped hitbox behind Falco, but it seems to be active for 2 frames longer, 7 active frames. One thing to note with active frames and Falco Phantasm, however, is the speed and probably the size of the hitbox. In Melee, Falco Phantasm had 4 active frames and in Brawl, it had 3 active frames, but they both covered the entire travel distance. In contrast, Smash 4 had 5 active frames, but it only covered about half of the travel distance. In Ultimate, it seems to be back having hitboxes cover all or almost all of its travel distance. The only question remaining is what exactly is its travel distance.

I believe the reason they cut how far Falco Phantasm's hitboxes covered was for the same reason why many spikes were nerfed in Smash 4. They felt they, spikes, was too powerful or something which for Falco Phantasm does have an argument when it's the largest horizontal spike in the series. It's not strong, but it covers a large distance. Spikes are looking better at least in landing lag for everyone else and for Falco, Dair being frame 10 instead of 16, but I'm not so sure if they're just going to give Falco Phantasm back a full travel hitbox and call it a day. All the current footage of Falco using Falco Phantasm, in his trailer, Duck Hunt's, and Ike's, is zoomed up with one where he goes off-camera and stops at the ledge of Great Bay in Duck Hunt's and stops in Ike's since he hit Ike's Counter. Only in his trailer is he shown going its full distance on the Coliseum stage.

Falco starts behind one of the square tiles, made up of 3x3 smaller tiles, and ends up a little ahead of the rectangle tile, made up of 3x5 tiles, in front of him. Counting the smaller square tiles, that's 10 of those tiles. If Ultimate and Smash 4 have the same scale in stages and in general, it could be possible to compare distances, but I don't have a Wii U and Coliseum isn't on the 3DS version of Smash 4. It might be a placebo, but part of feels like they might have shortened Falco Phantasm to balance its hitbox coverage.
 
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IndigoSSB

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#16

Not much falco content during the direct, but we get to see his forward roll.
 
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MERPIS

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#17
What frame did falco's dair come out on in brawl? Just for comparison sake if dair now comes out on frame 10 that still makes it insanely fast for a meteor
 

V0LuG

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#19
I'm fine with it being a little slower when the rest of our toolkit is pretty godly for edgeguarding as well. And even moreso considering that edgeguarding looks a lot more important in this game considering the new airdodge.
 
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Ag47

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#23
Watching this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96KrITWFX-M) there's a ton of new info available on falco now! I haven't looked at all of it in depth yet but I noticed there's a few really important things to take away. First of all, I think Falco's dash/run was improved somewhat from Sm4sh (two good examples are here and here) which might mean more consistent follow-ups to juggles/set-ups, a problem that severely limited his neutral in his WiiU incarnation. Additionally, I noticed from this Dair and this one that Falco's Dair landing lag seems to be much lower, ~14 frames in the first one and ~12 frames in the second (though honestly the video's pretty choppy so it's hard to tell). Either way, despite how bad the Falco player was in the video, I think the bird got a MAJOR upgrade based on the footage and I'm super excited to play him.

Edit: Just noticed this aerial laser! Looks like it's confirmed to be ~ frame 7 in the air. I'm hyped
Edit the 2nd: here's a higher resolution version of the gameplay
 
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Ffamran

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#24
Is that a new Up Smash I see? Looks very cool.
It's the same Somersault Shell he was given in Smash 4. If it retains its high active frames, I-frames, and leg invincibility, then Up Smash will remain a very good anti-air. It does look a bit different, sort of like Rugal's Genocide Cutter, but I'm not so sure because of how zoomed out everything is.

It's essentially a back facing front flip kick.

This, but if Rugal didn't rise up and somehow still managed to do a flip.


I was going to look through the Direct and note some things down, but apparently there's this too? From the Direct, Falco was shown to still have his tail sweep Dtilt and his Side Smash as a move is the same overhead haymaker, but they changed the animation and from the quick glimpse I saw of his gameplay in the posted video, it appears to be faster on recovery and possibly startup in return for much less range. Confirmation will have to wait until we get datamined frame data. Anyway, In Brawl and Smash 4, Falco would lunge forward and his arms would grow a bit, but in Ultimate, he doesn't lunge forward as much nor does his arms grow in size. Personally, if it's indeed faster at least in recovery, then I don't mind the shortened range. If anything I'd prefer it to be faster at the cost of having less range and that could let it be stronger as a short-ranged Smash should have something and this could let Falco truly have the strongest Side Smash to Fox's strongest Up Smash and Wolf's strongest Down Smash.

The only problem is that in the Direct, Side Smash was shown briefly while in the posted video, the first time I saw it, he's pretty far away.

Other notes: Falco still has his poke kick for Ftilt that he had since Melee, his Utilt from Brawl, Nair from Brawl, his Uair from Brawl. That only leaves his throws and Bair. I don't think the player ever used his Bair. Also, this will need to be confirmed when the game's released, but I think Fire Bird had its travel distance reduced. Why? I don't know, this move has been crap since Brawl. On the bright side, it looks like it connects better, but yeah...

I'll do a more formal look tomorrow or something. It's late at night and I was crunching some homework.
 
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V0LuG

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#25
Is this the old phantasm? Looks like we still go through stuff without hitting it.

You guys might want to take at look at this clip:


Falco looking pretty good. Thanks to Smash Bros Spain for the footage!
 
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Nohbl

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#26
Yeah, no thanks Sakurai. tr4sh Falco is far from my favorite, and making him a tad faster doesn't grab me.
Check out that puny range on the blaster now.
 

Flon

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#27
From my perspective, it's very uncommon for them to add back an auto cancel, but they did it for down aerial. That helps a lot. It seems to do 11% so it's weaker. Landing lag is lowered and start-up is reduced to frame 10.

So, Falco's short hop down air is now frame 13? The lowered jump squat helps, considering his Brawl short hop down air was frame 11. Honestly, this went from a terrible aerial into a seemingly great one.
 
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TMNTSSB4

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#28
Falco seems to have another good set of voice clips...as usual
 

Ffamran

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#29
Is this the old phantasm? Looks like we still go through stuff without hitting it.
Jigglypuff sidestepped just as Falco used Phantasm and I don't know if it was confirmed or not, but people said, that according to the developers, stuff like Fox Illusion and Falco Phantasm not going through shields was a bug not to mention people not being able to move past shields.

So, I'm going to go through stuff bit by bit and as reasonably as possible since there's so much and they're usually not about Falco, but everyone and Falco. Once again, a warning that I am human, I will make mistakes, and they are all estimates, so it's better to wait for datamined frame data for the actual frame data of Falco in Ultimate.

The first time Falco's Side Smash was shown was during Incineroar's section of the Direct at around 5:09: https://youtu.be/fccgHnBQ0YM?t=309. You'll have to slow this down or watch it frame by frame since it happens very quickly and the camera shifts to the right, away from Falco and on Incineroar when Incineroar dodges. Note the different animation where Falco stays more upright and swings his arms closer to his body than in Brawl or Smash 4. This is what Side Smash looks like in Smash 4 for comparison. Although zoomed in, Falco doesn't move as far where it looks like he takes a step forward compared to the deeper lunge of Brawl and Smash 4.

In that section, Falco misses and it looks like he briefly charges which unfortunately, I don't know how to factor in for frame counting. That said, from the frame when a blue sparkle appears in front of Falco after he stops running to the frame where the attack effect appears is 19 frames where frame 20 is when his arms are in front of him and definitely looking like it would be a hit frame. So, at worse, assuming the charge frames add in about 2 to 3 frames, it has a similar startup as in Brawl and Smash 4 which had 17 startup, but its recovery frames, damage, knockback, hitboxes are possibly different. Recovery frames can sort of be estimated here. but Incineroar grabs Falco around the time he looks like he at idle at 52-ish frames from Side Smash's estimate startup of 19-20. So, around 33 to 32 recovery framess which is the same as in Smash 4.

Dtilt is shown off at 15:47 where after doing a Down Smash and getting hit by Jigglypuff's dash attack, Falco does a Dtilt and the scene cuts to a different one: https://youtu.be/fccgHnBQ0YM?t=947. The starting frame is when Falco suddenly starts to crouch down and from there, Jigglypuff is hit on frame 10. The first 3 frames are not him entering a crouch, but are a part of Dtilt as he turns around instead of simply crouching down and looking forward. So, that's 3 frames slower than in the previous games. Without knowing its damage, recovery frames, knockback, hit angle, and other hit properties at this time of examination, that's a complete nerf.

I don't think Falco charges Down Smash in this scene, so I think it's safe to estimate it startup here. The start frame is when Falco crouches down a bit from his idle to when his legs are out in splits which takes 12 frames. Total frames and recovery, however, are weird. I'm going to assume Falco can act around the time his twirl animation ends or during it, because if not, then Falco doesn't appear to return to idle until around frame 70 which would be beyond stupid unless his Down Smash did 30% or something. The rest of the Direct doesn't show Falco doing anything new or special, so that's it.

So, for the 8 player match one posted several times here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuCcTgIRWeE, I'm not going to go through that. It's so zoomed out and chaotic, that I'd rather not. It does, however, show off moves that weren't confirmed before and that is his Ftilt, Utilt, Up Smash, Uair, Nair, and Fire Bird. They're all pretty much the same with the exception of Up Smash maybe looking a bit different in animation, but is probably functionally the same and Fire Bird, which will need to be confirmed, but I wouldn't doubt it since it's been a **** move since Brawl, looks like it has its travel distance reduced, at least vertically, for what looks like better hit connection. That leaves his pummel, throws, and Bair as the player, Aminka never uses them in this video.

I will note something that will come up in the next video, but Up Smash kind of looks spammable. It had high active frames in Smash 4 which lowered its recovery frames that way and it still had lower total frames than some of the other flip kick Up Smash like Fox's had 55 total frames to Falco's 49. I'm going to call it a placebo for now, but if it actually has lower recovery frames, then Up Smash might become very stupid. It might even be a possible reversal for Falco as a get off me attack and assuming it still has leg invincibility to cover him.

In the video posted by V0LuG V0LuG , the video quality doesn't have a 60 FPS option, so we cannot estimate anything related to frames in it and for those asking, no, you cannot double the frames, assuming it's 30 FPS, and estimate that way. That said, the Falco player, Kynois, demonstrated more of Falco's tools. In particular, it looks like Dair auto-cancels on hop or has very low landing lag as Kynois frequently uses Nair and Dair from hops. The damage reduction is probably to be expected now as Dair is faster and probably retains its high active frames. If it didn't have lowered damage then Falco's Dair would arguably be superior to Luigi's and many others with frame 10-ish Dair spikes by a longshot. Regardless, with Nair and Dair, especially Dair, Falco has more flexible aerial approach should you choose to play him this way. With the way Dair hits, I could see it being a strong cross-up provided you don't telegraph it.

It's a bit hard to see as all the players are bunched together at the left side of the stage and Falco's back is towards the screen when it happens, but Kynois uses Falco's D-throw and the animation was changed: https://youtu.be/LYO9GDUnLcI?t=19. Instead of slamming them to the ground and jumping up to fire on them, Falco looks like either he slammed them down and pretty much executing them with a Blaster shot or is holding them down and executing them. That's pretty brutal-looking and not something I'd expect from a Nintendo first-party, but I guess it works from a background perspective as a reference to Falco being a former gangster. It is more subtle as well, so I could see people missing what happens because Falco's D-throw animation is slick. That said, knockback-wise, I'm not sure if it was because Kynois did a jump instead of a hop or if it has higher recovery and/or a more undesirable launch angle that Falco couldn't follow-up with it. This would make it more similar to Marth's D-throw and I wonder if it's a universal thing where throw combos aren't as reliable or frequent.

Kynois also shows off Falco's U-throw which is the same throw up and shoot once from Smash 4: https://youtu.be/LYO9GDUnLcI?t=52. He was also able to follow-up with Uair after it on Chrom at 0% and who landed on the top platform, so it's pretty similar so far. At least in animation and function as a way to put Falco's opponents into the sky for him to follow up after, guaranteed (usually at low percents) or not (mid to high).

B-throw is similarly the same as shown at 1:26: https://youtu.be/LYO9GDUnLcI?t=86.

F-throw, at 1:31: https://youtu.be/LYO9GDUnLcI?t=91, looks functionally the same, but it looks like the animation may have changed. In the previous games, Falco and Fox do an elbow that starts around chin level and ends to a little under it to about their chest level. So, a mid, low-mid elbow strike. In the instance it was used in Ultimate, it looks like either Falco is doing a high elbow hitting downwards or he's actually doing a chop since you can hear a faint slash sound effect when he does F-throw.

At 1:07, Falco's Bair is shown and it's the same as in Smash 4: https://youtu.be/LYO9GDUnLcI?t=67. Personally, while I did like how stupidly strong and fast it was in Smash 4, I would have preferred his Melee Bair as it's a move no longer being used by anyone unlike Smash 4 Bair is very close to looking if not lifted from Wolf's Bair. That's just me, though.

So, the updated frame data estimates, adding in Dtilt, Side Smash, and Down Smash, as of the November 1, 2018 Direct are as follows:
Move Startup Recovery
Jab 1 2 N/A
Jab 2 3 N/A
Rapid Jab 5 N/A
Rapid Jab Finisher 5 ~42 to 45
Dash attack 7 N/A
Dtilt 10 N/A
Side Smash ~19-20 (briefly charged) ~32-33
Down Smash 12 N/A
Fair 8 N/A
Dair 10 23 (landing)
Blaster 9 31 (+2, second shot)
Falco Phantasm 18 ~37
Reflector 6 (1 reflect) ~37
Jump 3 N/A


Note: Dair's landing frames might be different as this number was from footage from the E3 build.

Additionally, with the exception of his pummel, all his moves so far have been confirmed as they were shown off in some video or another. Side Smash and D-throw received noticeable animation changes while Up Smash and F-throw appears to have received minor animation changes.

I could have gotten the startup for Utilt, Ftilt, Uair, Fire Bird, and possibly Nair from the 8 player match video, but there's been a lot of Falco stuff, so this will be it for now. And remember, these are estimates. Wait for datamined frame data if you want accurate and correct frame data.
 
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Flon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 12, 2018
Messages
42
#30
I won't be surprised if down throw is far less reliable.

It certainly could be due to the image quality, but throughout all the videos I've been seeing of Falco I'm believing that his back air has seen a startup increase; the initial pose is exaggerated.
 

V0LuG

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 17, 2015
Messages
10
Location
Spain, EU
#31
I won't be surprised if down throw is far less reliable.

It certainly could be due to the image quality, but throughout all the videos I've been seeing of Falco I'm believing that his back air has seen a startup increase; the initial pose is exaggerated.
I feel the same, might be because Falco seems to have longer legs (?) Or at least he seems to extend them a lot more in dsmash and bair.
 
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Ffamran

The Ravioli's Gale
Moderator
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Messages
14,599
#32
It certainly could be due to the image quality, but throughout all the videos I've been seeing of Falco I'm believing that his back air has seen a startup increase; the initial pose is exaggerated.
I'm not sure what you mean by its pose having to do with its startup. They could decide on whatever pose they wanted for Bair or any attack and choose at what frame that pose shows up on. That's a pretty generalized and uninformed way of explaining animation, though.

Now, if you are talking about the possibility of its startup being increased from 4 to whatever, then I can see that. Smash 4 gave Falco a very fast and high knockback scaling Bair where in Ultimate, it might be too powerful and considering what Falco seems to be like in Ultimate as a overall more mobile fighter. Either it stays as is, so no nerfs or buffs, or it gets scaled in some way so that it's still powerful and fast, but reasonably so. Unfortunately, all the videos from smashbrosspain were recorded off-camera and not at 60 FPS, so we can't say for sure what exactly is the startup of Bair or anyone's moves are in the videos that haven't already been noted down from other 60 FPS videos.

What I can say is that there have been some people saying its knockback was reduced which if that is true, then increasing its startup wouldn't really make sense to a certain degree. Then again, I haven't been able to catch glimpses of people landing clean Bairs. Most of the Bairs I've seen from the available footage either has him miss entirely or connect with its late hit.

I feel the same, might be because Falco seems to have longer legs (?) Or at least he seems to extend them a lot more in dsmash and bair.
It could be an animation change. For example, Side Smash which I talked about in my previous post was changed so that Falco doesn't lunge forward as much and he appears to be hitting closer to his body than in Brawl and Smash 4. With certain moves in Smash, sometimes the attacking limb(s) grows in size for the attack where I believe it's just for a visual representation as the hitbox size is independent from it. You can see this with Down Smash where once Falco lands his splits, his legs grow in size and shrink after it. Use the < and > keys on your keyboard to step through a video on YouTube frame by frame or click the settings gear icon and set the speed x0.5 or x0.25 to see this more easily: https://youtu.be/fccgHnBQ0YM?t=945.

With Bair itself, this is what its animation looks like in Smash 4.

The video quality doesn't make it easy to see, but it might be that in Ultimate, they made it so Falco leans back more so his right leg, the kicking leg, can reach further: https://youtu.be/3SG46niODTI?t=24. What I can clearly see is that his upper body position is different. In Smash 4, Falco looks behind him with his chest facing the screen while in Ultimate, he leans his body towards his left leg and his shoulders are almost perpendicular to the ground. That kind of makes it more similar to his new dash attack pose which was noted in the first post of this thread.
 
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Zoneyboi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 3, 2018
Messages
20
#34
I think Falco at least looks playable now. He might end up not having enough tools to offset Fire Bird and surpass the very high tiers, but with the approach options they've opened for him I think that playing him online won't feel like gimping oneself.
 

gzmee

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Messages
54
Location
New Jersey
#35
does anybody have a video of falco's victory animation(s)? i saw a screenshot on twitter but i can't find a video.
update: nvmind i found it
 
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Ffamran

The Ravioli's Gale
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Messages
14,599
#36
Ffamran Ffamran so what do you make of all this.
That it's still too early to draw any conclusions, especially tier placing which to me is the dumbest thing to do with a game that's not out yet let alone pre-release builds, because we lack datamined frame data and values to tell us the whole story let alone how matchups play in practice or are theorized on paper or testing done in controlled environments. You can say Falco or whoever feels faster, feels slower, hits harder, hits weaker, their X move(s) is different or the same, and so on, but that isn't enough without all the concrete evidence to back up everything.

The other thing, and I do not intend for this to be an attack on anyone, is that people saying "Falco is back" are deceiving themselves. Falco was never back. Specifically, Melee Falco, Brawl Falco, and Smash 4 Falco were and will never be back for Ultimate. They're different games and different characters or rather, Falco plays, functions, works differently in those games. So, people who are looking for Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4 Falco in Ultimate Falco are setting themselves up for disappointment. They will not be happy, they will not like Ultimate Falco, and they might not even like Ultimate as a whole.

At a glance, however, Ultimate Falco is far, far better than Smash 4 Falco, especially in movement as he looks more mobile and more flexible in how and where he wants to go. How much weight that holds depends on the person; it could be utterly worthless or it could be the greatest thing. The definite thing is that it looks like Ultimate Falco has a game plan that goes beyond Smash 4 Falco's try to stand his ground with only his normals because his Specials, particularly Blaster, did jack to add to his gameplay and his movement, mainly horizontally, was awful for a character being forced to fight primarily at close range and who didn't have high weight and even more power like Ganondorf or guaranteed follow-ups like Luigi who has a good projectile, but that itself was massive problem for Smash 4 Falco. In other words, he looks more fun and fluid to play as like Melee Falco and Brawl Falco, but once again, Ultimate Falco is not and cannot be played as Melee Falco or Brawl Falco or Smash 4 Falco.

From what little can be seen of his moves, from his normals to his Specials, they look like run of the mill Falco stuff with the exception of Bair and Dair. Dair is noticeable as it's not the slow, generic spike Dair of Smash 4, but it's also not the frame 5, murder Dair of Melee or even Brawl. It's closer to Brawl's, but also not that similar since it seems like the developers want Falco to be able throw this out without much risk, but also with the idea that no, you are not going to be throwing out a frame 5 Dair spike all willy-nilly, so they set its startup to around 10, and probably lowered its knockback scaling.

With Bair, I think they actually went ahead and gave him Brawl Wolf's Bair completely this time. Unlike in Smash 4 where they gave it a similar, almost identical animation, but frame data that made it a ridiculous frame 4 aerial with high knockback scaling, the footage and people have been saying its weaker in knockback, possibly mainly in growth, and also slower in startup. I think I remember seeing people say frame 6 or frame 10. If it's frame 6, then that's the exact same startup as Brawl Wolf's Bair and if it's frame 10, then it's a frame slower on startup than Fox's. Ultimate Wolf on the other hand, people said his Bair is slower at frame 13 on startup. I don't remember whose Bairs it was compared to, but it might have been Samus, ZSS, and probably Fox. I'm thinking of Captain Falcon for some reason as a not fast, but not that slow aerial with good damage and its knockback looks stronger than Ultimate Falco's at least. This will need actual frame data to confirm everything, though, as the current footage with Falco using Bair aren't 60 FPS. Whatever the case may be, I can see the reasoning for why Bair was changed as if he had his Smash 4 Bair, then the earliest he can get it out is frame 7 as everyone has a frame 3 jump and Bair is frame 4. That would be stupid and even stupider with the new animation looking like he kicks out further. It could have kept its startup, but reduced knockback, however, and that would have worked.

So, this dude was able to get a higher quality recording of smashbrosspain's video of Marcbri's Falco vs Marcpq's ZSS. The original recording of the match being this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SG46niODTI. You can actually see what the moves look like and it being a 1v1 makes it easier to keep track of things. It's still not a 60 FPS video, though, so don't try counting anything.

I will end this with when the game is released, be on the look out for Japanese Falco players. Throughout Smash 4, they have been the best at moving with Falco and they also tried to incorporate Blaster despite it being a terrible move. For example, Tamisuma had a lot of Falco matches on their channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/terminalkai.

With regards to movement, most Smash 4 Falco players and players in general always seemed to bum rush into fights which some characters can get away with because of how fast they and/or how good their hitboxes are, but you can't really do that with Smash 4 Falco nor do I think you should do that with any character. It wasn't until late when you had some Smash 4 Falco players showing up with good movement or had developed good movement by that time. Regardless of who you play, being able to move well with a character is a great skill to have.

With Blaster, I could see people coming from Smash 4 and having played Falco subconsciously not use Blaster because of how bad it was in Smash 4. Get out of that mindset with Ultimate; treat Ultimate Falco as a different character and use Blaster. By use Blaster, I don't mean spam the thing. Use it intelligently and creatively too. People will call it camping, turtling, or whatever, but screw them. You have a projectile for zoning, so use it. Combine slippery movement with zoning and you'd have a solid foundation to work with. That is to say, develop good fundamentals in movement, an understanding of how your character's moves work, and zoning, how, when, and why to zone. Combos and tech skills come later because they don't mean anything if you can't actually get in to do something or control how the fight goes.
 
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Nohbl

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 20, 2017
Messages
357
Location
Chicago, Illinois
#37
So, this dude was able to get a higher quality recording of smashbrosspain's video of Marcbri's Falco vs Marcpq's ZSS. The original recording of the match being this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SG46niODTI. You can actually see what the moves look like and it being a 1v1 makes it easier to keep track of things. It's still not a 60 FPS video, though, so don't try counting anything. https://www.youtube.com/embed/hS8wX_v_p0s?rel=0
Thanks for that. Really illuminating.
To me, it's not looking good for our boy.
Though he seems overall faster, it seems as if they didn't fully compensate him for it.
Phantasm seems the same speed, or worse, slower, which isn't good when supposedly everyone has gotten faster.
I also find the knockback troublesome, especially how ZSS was launched after getting hit by nair.
Because one of Falco's saving graces in tr4sh was that most of his moves comboed into one another---
nair was fairly easy to string together in a chain, in my experience. But now, Zero Suit Samus is getting sent so far away!
And I can't see it just being a DI save. It now just looks like a weaker fair. Functionally useless.
And either up air has too much knockback or else too little recovery, or perhaps ZSS just can get out of hitlag that quickly,
but 1:41 also seemed unnatural compared to tr4sh.
Overall I am not optimistic about his power level in this game.

I will end this with when the game is released, be on the look out for Japanese Falco players. Throughout Smash 4, they have been the best at moving with Falco and they also tried to incorporate Blaster despite it being a terrible move. For example, Tamisuma had a lot of Falco matches on their channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/terminalkai.
Nice. I found these.



Real decent Falco play in my opinion, and this may be controversial, but I actually think he doesn't look as bad of a character here when he is used correctly. But the tr45h gameplay I've seen thus far has me questioning how much of what made him salvageable has been carried over, because I'm not really seeing it.
 

Ffamran

The Ravioli's Gale
Moderator
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Messages
14,599
#38
Phantasm seems the same speed, or worse, slower, which isn't good when supposedly everyone has gotten faster.
This needs confirmation, but I think they nerfed or kept Ultimate Falco's recovery the same probably to counteract all the changes they gave him in Ultimate or that they want him to have some sort of notable weakness. This is kind of dumb when you have characters like Greninja, Sheik, and ZSS who have similar jump heights and similar or higher aerial mobility, but they have much, much better recovery moves. Little Mac arguably has a better vertical recovery even if it doesn't travel that high. Ridley also essentially has 64 Fox's Fire Fox and Melee Falco's Fire Bird where it hits hard, but it also looks like it has Brawl Fox's and Smash 4 Fox's Fire Fox travel distance at the cost of having less angles. It's been confirmed that Wolf enters free-fall after Wolf Flash, but Fire Wolf has always been a better post-Brawl Fire Bird when it launches at half the frames it takes Fire Bird at the cost of not having a charging hitbox. Wolf Flash would also be like an angled up Fire Bird that can kill or spike.

At least it's not like Luigi and maybe Dr. Mario losing the ability to rise with their Luigi Cyclone and Dr. Tornado, respectively.

I also find the knockback troublesome, especially how ZSS was launched after getting hit by nair.
Because one of Falco's saving graces in tr4sh was that most of his moves comboed into one another---
It's everyone's problem now. The new knockback system makes it hard to follow-up unless you're playing Ken and Ryu for obvious reasons and so far, Bayonetta. It'll have to wait until the game's out and people figure out if anyone else has guaranteed follow-ups or setups.

This game might be more like Soul Calibur than Tekken. In Soul Calibur, there are combos, but most of the time, the fight is about spacing and landing hits which makes sense since it's a weapon-based fighting game while in Tekken, there's a juggle system and you can string or combo together moves. So, if 64, Melee, and Smash 4 are more like Tekken, then Ultimate might be more like Soul Calibur. I don't remember where Brawl stands. It might be like Soul Calibur as well.

Anyway, for some characters, it doesn't really matter. Either their gameplay was always like that or they can function very well, provided they have good enough frame data like launch Smash 4 Marth was definitely not doing well compared to post-patch Smash 4 Marth, without needing combos such as most of the weapons users, zoners like Link, Mega Man, Snake, Villager, and Wii Fit Trainer, and characters like Bowser, Charizard, Ganondorf, and Triple D, who just hit hard and call it a day. Obviously, that is not to say being able to combo or follow-up isn't useful for them. Smash 4 Bowser, Melee Marth, and Smash 4 Robin come to mind where in the case of Smash 4, once Bowser and Robin were given throw combos, they became much better.

For characters who rely on combos, follow-ups, and strings for damage, it's going to be rough. So, off the top of my head, characters like Captain Falcon, Falco, Fox, Luigi, Mario, Samus, and ZSS where we've seen what happened to Brawl Captain Falcon. He was a shadow of a man that he was in 64, Melee, and Smash 4. He and the others probably will have an easier time than in Brawl if they were in that game, but unless people figure out something after the game's out, I think they're going to have a rougher time than in Smash 4. Captain Falcon and Fox at least have high ground speed and Samus has projectile that can kill, but even then, that might not be enough without stupid stuff.

nair was fairly easy to string together in a chain, in my experience. But now, Zero Suit Samus is getting sent so far away!
And I can't see it just being a DI save. It now just looks like a weaker fair. Functionally useless.
A weaker, faster Fair. It's why I wished it was changed to a different move in Ultimate because once they patched Nair and Fair in Smash 4, Nair was just a faster Fair that couldn't kill with lower landing lag and without a landing hit. It used to be that Nair was significantly faster and slightly less reliable to offset Fair being slower, but harder hitting. They added auto-link angles to Nair in 1.0.8, but they also made Fair frame 10, from frame 12, and lowered it landing lag from 32 to 25. Fair was still slower, Nair is frame 3, but it just did similar things and you would be more likely to use it at higher percents over Nair since it killed. Ultimate lowered Fair's startup even more to frame 8 last I checked which is still slower than Brawl's frame 6 Fair, but still means the gap between Nair's startup and Fair's startup is getting smaller. They're both forward-hitting, multi-hit aerials which is too similar with what they were in Smash 4 and in, as it looks like, Ultimate. If Nair was Melee Fair in hit style where the hits don't connect reliably or at all, then Nair would be more distinct, but probably would not as good as it was in Smash 4 or Ultimate.

The new knockback system definitely doesn't help. The one thing I could see it being able to do well is if you can do drag down Nair, land, and follow-up with something. Otherwise, it's basically a get off me move with its speed which is awful compared to in Smash 4 where it could do that, but with the old knockback system, also string into stuff, especially at lower percents.

but 1:41 also seemed unnatural compared to tr4sh.
I hope this is not the case, but that they might have given Uair back its sourspot hitbox on his body. It's been in since Melee, but was changed to have normal knockback in 1.0.8 Smash 4. There was a post by Shaya on the Ultimate Marth? boards saying that it might be possible the Smash 4 patch team and the main development team are different, so it could be possible that the main development team ignored or did not take into consideration any or some of the changes by the Smash 4 patch team.
 
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Nohbl

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 20, 2017
Messages
357
Location
Chicago, Illinois
#39
It's everyone's problem now. The new knockback system makes it hard to follow-up unless you're playing Ken and Ryu for obvious reasons and so far, Bayonetta. It'll have to wait until the game's out and people figure out if anyone else has guaranteed follow-ups or setups, this game might be more like Soul Calibur than Tekken. In Soul Calibur, there are combos, but most of the time, the fight is about spacing and landing hits which makes sense since it's a weapon-based fighting game while in Tekken, there's a juggle system and you can string or combo together moves. So, if 64, Melee, and Smash 4 are more like Tekken, then Ultimate might be more like Soul Calibur. I don't remember where Brawl stands. It might be like Soul Calibur as well.
In doing research I came across this.


Aside from the Soulcalibur V joke in the header, I think this somewhat confirms your speculation about Brawl's knockback being too much generally to do many followups. But I'll say that Brawl had quite a few weak knockback moves dedicated to combo extension---Wario's fair and nair are standouts (vid related below). Also, if you skip to 1:10 in the video above, you can see the dramatic difference between how Falco's nair used to work vs how it works in tr45h.


At least it's not like Luigi and maybe Dr. Mario losing the ability to rise with their Luigi Cyclone and Dr. Tornado, respectively.
Is that a thing now?
 
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