ULTIMATE COMMUNITY BALANCING THREAD: Rosalina & Luma!

BlackInk

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#81
I can see where you're coming from, but I would propose that a decent U-tilt would round out his moveset by giving him a juggle option from the ground without needing to land his jab. The buff wouldn't be huge, but it would let him hit opponents directly in front of him rather than them needing to be right above him, which is really hard to achieve without a read. The buffs to the other moves would give them a purpose so that they aren't overshadowed by his projectile game. Right now the only reason I end up using those moves is either a desperate attempt to extend a combo or a mis-input of a smash attack.

The animation of U-tilt does have him punching straight upwards, but I would argue that's irrelevant if the move is bad. The hitbox would not and should not be egregious, it just shouldn't whiff on all grounded opponents and hydrant. And I agree that we need to fix the hitboxes of a lot of other moves, too.
Okay, what’s with this game and its horrible up-tilts? They don’t even have the hit-boxes that’s supposed to be in the up-tilts. Don’t believe me, grab inkling and make Pikachu the test dummy in training mode and try to hit Pikachu with Inkling’s up-tilt.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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#82
Remember to vote for the next character, guys! There's only two votes right now, for :ultbayonetta: and :ultgnw:, so I would have to use the randomizer.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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#83
Pac-Man's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...37kl-FlAfu5bKGMANDj0ZTEIWeZxN2g/viewanalytics

Randomizer picked :ultbayonetta:, so here's her poll: https://forms.gle/869ocdekVw52CLC16

Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who probably appreciate this game more than Bayonetta: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcloud: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultjoker: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultgnw: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:



:ultbayonetta: is a creative character that unfortunately doesn't reward creativity as much as you'd like due to the massive nerfs between games. While her buffs in 3.1.0 were appreciated, she's still a really laggy character who doesn't get enough out of her combos anymore to compensate, and she can't even kill very well. I'd say she's still in mid tier, but she could use some decent buffs:
  • Allow Bats Within to maintain a directional airdodge. With how much worse Bats Within is in general, there's no reason for it to also hurt her recovery.
  • Decrease the end lag of F-tilt to let it start combos. I'm surprised this move hasn't really been touched, as it's easily her worst grounded move.
  • Her smash attacks are too weak for how much commitment they require. Make them kill at a decent percent.
  • Revert the nerf to F-air 3's end lag. It wasn't really broken, and now this move leaves you too low to even be able to follow them properly.
  • Decrease the SDI multiplier of her combo moves (especially Witch Twist), but slightly increase the effectiveness of DI. This will make sure that her combos still function properly but require her to read the opponent to extend them.

Voting for someone who got drastically changed in this game but in a different way, :ultgnw:.
 
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VodkaHaze

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#85
The issue with balancing Bayonetta is the developers don't want her to be too good. I'm sure most of you have seen this match from E3 2018:
It was reported Sakurai shook his head when he saw that ladder combo. I think he wants to avoid these combos at all costs, even if it means keeping Bayonetta in low-to-mid tier.

I vote for Mr. Game & Watch. :ultgnw:
 
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#87
I’ve somehow managed to miss Doc, one of the characters I actually care about.

Doc is very, very close to being good. If his moveset were on a character that didn’t have molasses up their ***, that character would probably end up being pretty busted. All he needs is mobility buffs, because as he is now it’s just not feasible to be successful in a game where characters like Inkling and Fox can speed-blitz you to death. Here’s what I would do.

Buff his weight from 98 to 101, taking him from a middleweight to a middle-heavyweight, like he should have been in the first place.

Dash speed: 1.397792 (7th slowest) -> 1.54 (16th slowest)

Air speed: 0.9238784 (8th slowest) -> 0.95 (17th slowest)

After that, increase the distance of Super Jump Punch (at least let him reach Battlefield’s top platform), and I believe Doc will be good to go. He’ll still be slow, just not painfully so. Enough mobility to make him able to compete, but hopefully not enough to break him.

I vote Cloud.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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#88
Bayonetta's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...x-gOPl0vwnEKJ7yJ5zzJHor05IweT7A/viewanalytics

:ultgnw: won, so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/yLQxJKJXNEaP1X417

Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who exist on a different plane than Game & Watch: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcloud: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultjoker: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:



:ultgnw: got several major changes between Smash 4 and Ultimate. While his F-air change was not really wanted and still hasn't been addressed, all the other changes made him more unique visually and/or made his moves better, especially as D-smash, Parachute, and Oil Panic. Maister and others have shown that he's on the verge of high tier right now, and at this point he only needs a few changes to be truly successful:
  • I still don't understand why they made F-tilt and D-tilt serve such similar purposes. I would make F-tilt as strong as D-tilt is now, and then repurpose D-tilt to be a combo starter like it was in Melee by giving it a more vertical angle and less end lag. If they don't want to change D-tilt that drastically, then make F-tilt a bit less laggy and D-tilt have a bit more range.
  • Aside from U-throw, his throws could stand to do more damage. Did you know that his D-throw only does 5.25% fresh in a 1v1?
  • F-air would be significantly better if the bombs exploded on clank or took more damage to clank, and if the weak hitbox in front of him on startup properly connected to the bomb itself.
  • I would prefer if his U-air were like it was in Smash 4, but realistically I would just revert the nerf it got to its startup lag.

Voting for Batman's archnemesi-- wait, sorry, wrong :ultjoker:.
 
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BlackInk

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#89
The issue with balancing Bayonetta is the developers don't want her to be too good. I'm sure most of you have seen this match from E3 2018:
It was reported Sakurai shook his head when he saw that ladder combo. I think he wants to avoid these combos at all costs, even if it means keeping Bayonetta in low-to-mid tier.

I vote for Mr. Game & Watch. :ultgnw:
That’s pretty dumb since Bayonetta is a glass canon in this game.

I vote Cloud.
 
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#90
I don’t really know what to make of Game & Watch. I have a friend who plays him and insists that he’s bad, but he looks pretty damn good to me. All I know is if he does get buffed, something needs to be done about Fire, because that move is ****ing ridiculous.

I vote Cloud.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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#92
Mr. Game & Watch's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...hJyMEKScnPIxwSQ_GjY30crZogoes7w/viewanalytics


:ultcloud: won, so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/MK7GxK8Rwm1a3D7P9

Please respond to the poll! It doesn't take much time, and it helps me consolidate general opinions in a single location.


Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who do not break limits on a regular basis: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultjoker: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:



:ultcloud: was one of the easiest and best characters in Smash 4, so it made sense that he would get considerably nerfed for Ultimate. While most of the nerfs were fair, there are some that I feel are excessive and weren't targeted at anything egregious, so instead of being high tier he fell down to mid tier instead. I would give him some small buffs so he can compete with the other sword characters in this game:
  • I don't understand why his grab game was so heavily nerfed. I would buff his grab range so he can at least use his throws, because his grab range is currently one of the worst in the game. You could also make arguments to buff his throws, but this is the biggest issue right now.
  • Make non-limit Climhazzard snap to the ledge just a bit earlier so it's not quite as easy to edgeguard. Also, remove the mechanic that halts his horizontal movement when he lands the first hit of the move, which was an unnecessary nerf to his recovery.
  • Limit Charge should not completely deplete if he's hit, but rather just be cut in half. Limit should last 20 seconds instead of 15, and the Limit Gauge by his character portrait should visually deplete to show how much time he has left in his Limit.

Voting for the smoker and the midnight toker, :ultjoker:.
 
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#93
Cloud... angers me, and not for the same reasons as in Smash 4. I’m totally fine with the fact that he’s nerfed because he was just beyond stupid before, a classic example of a low risk, high reward character. My problem is that they didn’t put any thought into nerfing him. “Oh, his neutral air was stupid? Make it damn near unusable now. Up air was busted? Let’s nerf it in every ****ing way imaginable. His grab game was bad before? Let’s make it even worse! Why? Cause **** you, that’s why!”

That said, I do find him a lot more fun to play now that I actually have to use my brain, but the character’s shortcomings are apparent and should be addressed. As he is now, he’s pretty much Great Value Chrom.

The first issue is that killing with Cloud is a struggle. Almost every one of his finishing moves has been hit by the nerf hammer. All of his smash attacks, his up air, Limit Cross Slash, not even Finishing Touch was spared. He pretty much solely relies on back air and LCS now.

To address this, I would increase the knockback of forward tilt, up smash, and down smash. This way he has a strong tilt, an out of shield option that can kill, and a down smash that’s not a waste of a move.

Second, his neutral air. Dear God, did they destroy this move. While I definitely don’t want it to be the giant, autocancelling hitbox that it was before, it needs a range increase. The move is... almost useless now because it has such a tiny hitbox. You can’t use it out of shield (and even if you do it’s not actually safe on shield), you can’t approach with it, you can’t do much with it except break combos, although there is a certain percent threshold where it can combo into LCS or Finishing Touch, situational though it may be. A range increase would give this move a much-needed purpose.

Last (and I don’t know why this isn’t already a thing), why in Sakurai’s name can you not see the Limit Gauge depleting on the HUD? Literally every other character with a gimmick like this (Robin, Joker, etc.) has this done for them, so why exclude Cloud? Is he not anime enough?

I actually think that making Limit Charge’s cancel laggier was a bit unnecessary as well, although this isn’t nearly as important as what I’ve already mentioned.

Cloud doesn’t need much to be a threat, but it’s things that he really should have already had.

I’ll vote Joker as well.

Also, if I may make a suggestion, I think having a low-mid tier option on the poll would be a good idea. There’s a handful of characters that some might agree fall in between the mid and low tiers (I personally think Doc is one of these characters, but I chose the mid tier option because of the lack of a low-mid tier one).
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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#94
Also, if I may make a suggestion, I think having a low-mid tier option on the poll would be a good idea. There’s a handful of characters that some might agree fall in between the mid and low tiers (I personally think Doc is one of these characters, but I chose the mid tier option because of the lack of a low-mid tier one).
Would you also want a high-mid tier? I was debating between mid tier and high tier for Pac-Man, so this would fix that problem as well.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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#96
Cloud's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...XVAlHh-pQTGDijhngpFpgP4y9TTdMFw/viewanalytics


:ultjoker: won, so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/FcUDJ4eoQ6JJDCJR9

You'll notice I have replaced mid tier with upper mid tier and lower mid tier, to help distinguish characters who are on the lower range of viability. I didn't want to have seven tiers because I felt it would be unfair to the plurality of people who voted for only five tiers, so this is my compromise.


Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who don't have big red dudes helping them: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:



At release, :ultjoker: seemed like a pretty balanced character, normally being rather weak but getting temporarily enhanced to counteract it. After a few months, though, he seems a little overtuned, as both his normal and Arsene forms are noticeably better than we thought at first, and it's become easier for good players to reach and maintain Arsene for the majority of the match. MKLeo has already won numerous tournaments with Joker, and he's only had a few months with the character! For this reason I and many others think he's definitely top tier and should probably get toned down a bit:
  • Make aerial Gun have some more end lag. Currently you can pretty much immediately cancel a gun shot into whatever else you want, which is a little silly considering how good it is at edgeguarding already.
  • Reduce the range on Grappling Hook. This would prevent his recovery from being great without Arsene, which seems like a reasonable nerf given that Arsene should be the stronger version.
  • Tetrakarn is a little bit silly as a counter. I'm fine with its multiplier being high considering he only has it while Arsene is out, but the range it has is just not okay and makes the move easily the best of its kind. Please reduce that range to make some sort of sense.
  • Make Arsene charge more slowly from getting hit and from Rebel's Guard, and make Arsene last a base time of 25 seconds instead of 30. As mentioned above, this would help in making sure that he can't be in Arsene for a large majority of the match, as Arsene should be a temporary boost.
  • (Buff) Make dash attack connect better. I would say F-air as well, but I don't know how you'd do that without also making the kill confirm of F-air 1 into U-smash easier to land at a wider percent range, which I want to avoid doing.
  • (Optional buffs) There could be small damage buffs to non-Arsene moves to help compensate the nerfs. Jab, D-tilt, N-air, D-air, and aerial Grappling Hook come to mind.


Voting for Banjo & Kazooi-- never mind, Sakurai tricked us again! It's :ultduckhunt:!
 
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#97
When Joker first came out, I thought he was ****ing busted, but now I see that he’s just really annoying. That said, he’s still really good, and there are some things that I think need to be fixed, mainly with Arsene.

First, Tetrakarn. It’s not okay. It’s basically Counter Surge from Smash 4. It needs either it’s knockback or its range reduced, because as it is now it can hit you from pretty far away and send you that way, too.

Grappling Hook is also not okay. It goes so far so quickly that it’s actually better than Wings of Rebellion, which I’m pretty sure is not supposed to be the case. I would reduce its vertical distance, at least so that he can’t recover from the very bottom of the screen.

I personally think that the Rebellion Gauge shouldn’t charge when Joker gets hit because it makes it kind of bull**** to try and mount a comeback against him when you get halfway there and then you get back air’d by Arsene and die at 90% or you get grabbed once and take 40%. If this happens, though, I’d make some of Joker’s attacks better when he’s by himself.

It’s also worth noting that Joker has some moves with dubious uses, namely the spinning Gun attack. I don’t like dead moves on any character, so maybe do something to make that particular one more useful.

I’ll vote for Rosalina.
 
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BlackInk

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#98
Cloud's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...XVAlHh-pQTGDijhngpFpgP4y9TTdMFw/viewanalytics


:ultjoker: won, so here's his poll: https://forms.gle/FcUDJ4eoQ6JJDCJR9

You'll notice I have replaced mid tier with upper mid tier and lower mid tier, to help distinguish characters who are on the lower range of viability. I didn't want to have seven tiers because I felt it would be unfair to the plurality of people who voted for only five tiers, so this is my compromise.


Here are the characters you can vote for to be discussed tomorrow, who don't have big red dudes helping them: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:



At release, :ultjoker: seemed like a pretty balanced character, normally being rather weak but getting temporarily enhanced to counteract it. After a few months, though, he seems a little overtuned, as both his normal and Arsene forms are noticeably better than we thought at first, and it's become easier for good players to reach and maintain Arsene for the majority of the match. MKLeo has already won numerous tournaments with Joker, and he's only had a few months with the character! For this reason I and many others think he's definitely top tier and should probably get toned down a bit:
  • Make aerial Gun have some more end lag. Currently you can pretty much immediately cancel a gun shot into whatever else you want, which is a little silly considering how good it is at edgeguarding already.
  • Reduce the range on Grappling Hook. This would prevent his recovery from being great without Arsene, which seems like a reasonable nerf given that Arsene should be the stronger version.
  • Tetrakarn is a little bit silly as a counter. I'm fine with its multiplier being high considering he only has it while Arsene is out, but the range it has is just not okay and makes the move easily the best of its kind. Please reduce that range to make some sort of sense.
  • Make Arsene charge more slowly from getting hit and from Rebel's Guard, and make Arsene last a base time of 25 seconds instead of 30. As mentioned above, this would help in making sure that he can't be in Arsene for a large majority of the match, as Arsene should be a temporary boost.
  • (Buff) Make dash attack connect better. I would say F-air as well, but I don't know how you'd do that without also making the kill confirm of F-air 1 into U-smash easier to land at a wider percent range, which I want to avoid doing.
  • (Optional buffs) There could be small damage buffs to non-Arsene moves to help compensate the nerfs. Jab, D-tilt, N-air, D-air, and aerial Grappling Hook come to mind.


Voting for Banjo & Kazooi-- never mind, Sakurai tricked us again! It's :ultduckhunt:!
Gun has no knockback and is mainly situational just like everyone’s typical edgegaurding tool.

Reducing the grappling hook range when Joker no horizontal distances ranges when everyone else does just because he has Arsene, is awful design, because Arsene itself is a limited form that you can only get with situational means. Not to mention, that grappliers are usually problematic for grabbing ledges and Joker’s normal state can only get kills from his smash attack reads and edgegaurding. What this will allow is ridiculously early and undeserving Joker deaths.

If you’re hitting an Arsene counter, it means you have been rightfully read by your opponent with an limited option. Why should you have the chances to get away with it if that possibility of hitting it was already low?

Joker’s normal counter already can be already countered with something insane as a charged smash attack. Don’t forget that you still damage Joker with the move he counters.

Dash attack is ridiculously safe and he already has other moves to knock you down with instead. F-air is already a good move with great frame data, it doesn’t need a buff.

I vote Olimar.
 
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#99
Reducing the grappling hook range when Joker no horizontal distances ranges when everyone else does just because he has Arsene, is awful design, because Arsene itself is a limited form that you can only get with situational means.
It’s not just because of Arsene, it’s because Grappling Hook is an absurd recovery move in general.

And how is that awful design? Cloud has two states, one with a good recovery and one with a terrible one, but nobody complains about that.
What this will allow is ridiculously early and undeserving Joker deaths.
Depending on how much of a distance nerf we’re talking. I highly doubt L1N3R1D3R L1N3R1D3R is trying to nerf it into Doc tier. That’s what it would need to be for Joker to be killed “ridiculously early” and undeservingly.
If you’re hitting an Arsene counter, it means you have been rightfully read by your opponent with an limited option. Why should you have the chances to get away with it if that possibility of hitting it was already low?
So if we make Tetrakarn’s retaliation hitbox full screen, it’s okay? After all, you successfully read your opponent with a limited option.
 

BlackInk

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It’s not just because of Arsene, it’s because Grappling Hook is an absurd recovery move in general.

And how is that awful design? Cloud has two states, one with a good recovery and one with a terrible one, but nobody complains about that.

Depending on how much of a distance nerf we’re talking. I highly doubt L1N3R1D3R L1N3R1D3R is trying to nerf it into Doc tier. That’s what it would need to be for Joker to be killed “ridiculously early” and undeservingly.

So if we make Tetrakarn’s retaliation hitbox full screen, it’s okay? After all, you successfully read your opponent with a limited option.
“So if we make Tetrakarn’s retaliation hitbox full screen, it’s okay? After all, you successfully read your opponent with a limited option.”
Why should I argue with you if this is the crap I’m going to see?

Also, Cloud and Joker are way too different for them to have any comparisons aside from their gimmick. And I can argue that Cloud’s gimmick and design is pretty much hot garbage. Cloud should have a brand new recovery just because his original recovery was so stupidly explicitible and a reworked limit gimmick that separates itself from the up-b, just so this character will be more consistent.
 
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“So if we make Tetrakarn’s retaliation hitbox full screen, it’s okay? After all, you successfully read your opponent with a limited option.”
Why should I argue with you if this is the crap I’m going to see?
Hey, I’m only following your logic. I’m glad you agree that it’s crap.
Also, Cloud and Joker are way too different for them to have any comparisons aside from their gimmick.
...Which is literally the only thing I’m comparing.
And I can argue that Cloud’s gimmick and design is pretty much hot garbage. Cloud should have a brand new recovery just because his original recovery was so stupidly explicitible and a reworked limit gimmick that separates itself from the up-b, just so this character will be more consistent.
Man, Sakurai should really hire you.
 
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Your logic is nonsensical simply because in order for Joker to pick up that hit box, you have to try to hit him.
...Okay? And? So it’s alright to have a full-screen counter because you have to activate counters in order for them to work? And aside from that, I was using your logic, not any of my own, so you basically just said what I already know: that you’re talking nonsense.

I hate to tell you this, but the one not making any sense is you, I'm afraid.
 

BlackInk

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...Okay? And? So it’s alright to have a full-screen counter because you have to activate counters in order for them to work? And aside from that, I was using your logic, not any of my own, so you basically just said what I already know: that you’re talking nonsense.

I hate to tell you this, but the one not making any sense is you, I'm afraid.
Have you ever heard of straw man before? Because I’m not that stupid.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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Joker's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...whJSnYoktc2tA0cstGa36ERkKyeJecQ/viewanalytics


Randomizer picked :ultolimar:, so please respond to his poll here: https://forms.gle/UZmoGuRWjXgWUJjS6

And please vote for one of these characters to be discussed tomorrow, who have functional shields: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:



:ultolimar: is a pretty divisive character in the community. Some people say the nerfs absolutely ruined him, but I just don't see it. Top Olimar players are still succeeding everywhere, so there's no way he's worse than high tier, which is very respectable. I still find one aspect about him to be a little silly, but I will admit that one of the nerfs was too extreme, and he could use tuning up elsewhere. Here's how I would rebalance him:
  • (Buff) I don't know what they were thinking making his hurtbox bigger without compensating his shield. Increase his max shield size to actually cover him well like it should.
  • (Buff) There are also some other bugs with the Pikmin that should probably get addressed, though I'm not an expert on this character, so I can't expound on that any further.
  • (Buff) All of his Pikmin-less moves except jab should be better. F-tilt should be stronger, and D-tilt, U-tilt, and N-air should be less laggy.
  • (Nerf) Here's a potentially radical change: I would SLIGHTLY decrease the damage output of ALL of his moves with Pikmin (by at most 2% for smashes, by at most 1% for other attacks). For some reason they're designed with no stat buffs in mind, but all the stat buffs that the Pikmin give make the moves seem overwhelming no matter the type of Pikmin, where I feel that each Pikmin should have its own purpose.
  • (Nerf) I might also tome down Whistle a little bit. Its super armor is a bit silly given how lagless the move is in general.


Voting for Raito's pride and joy, :ultduckhunt:.
 
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xzx

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Y'all are tripping if you don't think Pac-Man needs any more buffs than what you suggested. Having mained Pac-Man since Smash 4, I know exactly what he needs, but that list would be long lol. Stop overrating him, he's middle tier at best. Players don't know the mathup for **** and thus believes he's viable and high tier for that... Like come on.

Wished I was here earlier so I could provide my points, but not feeling for it now since he's already been discussed. Don't mind me, just carry on.
 

BlackInk

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H
Joker's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...whJSnYoktc2tA0cstGa36ERkKyeJecQ/viewanalytics


Randomizer picked :ultolimar:, so please respond to his poll here: https://forms.gle/UZmoGuRWjXgWUJjS6

And please vote for one of these characters to be discussed tomorrow, who have functional shields: :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultduckhunt: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultolimar: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:



:ultolimar: is a pretty divisive character in the community. Some people say the nerfs absolutely ruined him, but I just don't see it. Top Olimar players are still succeeding everywhere, so there's no way he's worse than high tier, which is very respectable. I still find one aspect about him to be a little silly, but I will admit that one of the nerfs was too extreme, and he could use tuning up elsewhere. Here's how I would rebalance him:
  • (Buff) I don't know what they were thinking making his hurtbox bigger without compensating his shield. Increase his max shield size to actually cover him well like it should.
  • (Buff) All of his Pikmin-less moves except jab should be better. F-tilt should be stronger, and D-tilt, U-tilt, and N-air should be less laggy.
  • (Nerf) Here's a potentially radical change: I would SLIGHTLY decrease the damage output of ALL of his moves with Pikmin (by at most 2% for smashes, by at most 1% for other attacks). For some reason they're designed with no stat buffs in mind, but all the stat buffs that the Pikmin give make the moves seem overwhelming no matter the type of Pikmin, where I feel that each Pikmin should have its own purpose.


Voting for Raito's pride and joy, :ultduckhunt:.
how about we fix all of his weird pikman glitches and buff his air speed a bit? Myran has lots of examples of weird pikman bugs: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=44F-183rzCU&t=262s
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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Wished I was here earlier so I could provide my points, but not feeling for it now since he's already been discussed. Don't mind me, just carry on.
You should at least mention Olimar because he's today's discussion topic, but besides that you can discuss Pac-Man more if you want!
 

L1N3R1D3R

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We need votes for tomorrow's character! Mine's the only one so far.

Also, PLEASE stop with the petty arguments. I'm fine with healthy debate, but when the attacks get personal and distract from the topic at hand, they make the thread a less inviting place to be.
 
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BlackInk

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We need votes for tomorrow's character! Mine's the only one so far.

Also, PLEASE stop with the petty arguments. I'm fine with healthy debate, but when the attacks get personal and distract from the topic at hand, they make the thread a less inviting place to be.
Am I causing a problem? I’m trying pretty hard to avoid mocking him but still make some legitimate points to counter his arguments, however I feel like he’s just trolling around. I mean, I have pointed out to him in my first response that he is being ridiculous and he proceeds to continue on acting that way. And I already quit responding to him just because it’s plainly obvious that at this point that he’s disrespectful for the sake of being disrespectful.

I will say that he needs to be watch over for now, maybe for a day or so. I don’t want things to be this way and I hope he will not continue the rude behavior, except I know that my hope in things doesn’t mean it’ll turn out that way.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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Am I causing a problem? I’m trying pretty hard to avoid mocking him but still make some legitimate points to counter his arguments, however I feel like he’s just trolling around. I mean, I have pointed out to him in my first response that he is being ridiculous and he proceeds to continue on acting that way. And I already quit responding to him just because it’s plainly obvious that at this point that he’s disrespectful for the sake of being disrespectful.

I will say that he needs to be watch over for now, maybe for a day or so. I don’t want things to be this way and I hope he will not continue the rude behavior, except I know that my hope in things doesn’t mean it’ll turn out that way.
I'm not targeting you in specific. I like certain posts that express opinions I agree with, but that doesn't mean I promote the person or their actions. Regardless, you and MarioMeteor MarioMeteor have gotten into disagreements that have detracted from the discussion and are just going at each other, which I want to stop because I want more people to feel safe joining this ongoing discussion about balance. I would request that both of you express your disagreements about game balance in this thread, and any other disagreements privately between yourselves. The last thing I want this thread to become is a toxic battlefield of opinions.

And I'm not going to "watch over" him while leaving you "unwatched", because both of you are at fault for perpetuating this argument way past its due. That's why I'm laying down ground rules for everybody to avoid this toxicity in the future. We all have our different opinions, and it's more important to respect that than to fight tooth and nail to force people to agree with you.
 
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BlackInk

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I'm not targeting you in specific. I like certain posts that express opinions I agree with, but that doesn't mean I promote the person or their actions. Regardless, you and MarioMeteor MarioMeteor have gotten into disagreements that have detracted from the discussion and are just going at each other, which I want to stop because I want more people to feel safe joining this ongoing discussion about balance. I would request that both of you express your disagreements about game balance in this thread, and any other disagreements privately between yourselves. The last thing I want this thread to become is a toxic battlefield of opinions.

And I'm not going to "watch over" him while leaving you "unwatched", because both of you are at fault for perpetuating this argument way past its due. That's why I'm laying down ground rules for everybody to avoid this toxicity in the future. We all have our different opinions, and it's more important to respect that than to fight tooth and nail to force people to agree with you.
I didn’t really try to force him to agree with anything. I just pointed out the big disconnection in his logic. In his response to that, he tries to insult me till I say he’s right or force in a dumb narrative that I quickly called out. If I’m somehow toxic for confronting this behavior with decent and responsible behavior, then you’re toxic for putting out this paragraph over an argument that was ALREADY SETTLED!

You know, there is something that is positive about that guy, he doesn’t put himself on a high chair of ‘goodness’ and pretend that a normal and rude conversation is somehow the equivalent of a gun fight to the death.
 

L1N3R1D3R

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I didn’t really try to force him to agree with anything. I just pointed out the big disconnection in his logic. In his response to that, he tries to insult me till I say he’s right or force in a dumb narrative that I quickly called out. If I’m somehow toxic for confronting this behavior with decent and responsible behavior, then you’re toxic for putting out this paragraph over an argument that was ALREADY SETTLED!
Again, I'm trying to moderate this thread so that it doesn't get toxic. I was mainly putting my response as a reaction to MarioMeteor continuing the argument, but it wasn't really "already settled" since you were the previous post in that argument. My point is to please settle these arguments privately if they persist, because this kind of unrelated, toxic discussion is not good for this thread. I'm already getting fewer and fewer different people responding to the thread because of this drama, which is likely turning people away from a thread where we should be discussing balance. Whether or not you're the good guy, it still doesn't help this thread in any way. This is targeted at both of you right now, and at whoever happens to have unrelated disputes in this thread in the future.

Now, would you like to vote for the next character? My vote will automatically win if you don't.
 
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BlackInk

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Again, I'm trying to moderate this thread so that it doesn't get toxic. I was mainly putting my response as a reaction to MarioMeteor continuing the argument, but it wasn't really "already settled" since you were the previous post in that argument. My point is to please settle these arguments privately if they persist, because this kind of unrelated, toxic discussion is not good for this thread. I'm already getting fewer and fewer different people responding to the thread because of this drama, which is likely turning people away from a thread where we should be discussing balance. Whether or not you're the good guy, it still doesn't help this thread in any way. This is targeted at both of you right now, and at whoever happens to have unrelated disputes in this thread in the future.

Now, would you like to vote for the next character? My vote will automatically win if you don't.
You have to remember that some characters here are controversial and trust me when I say that the ‘toxicity’ here is barely existent especially when we are talking about Joker. One bad egg doesn’t spoil everything here.

Also, I already voted.
 
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L1N3R1D3R

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You have to remember that some characters here are controversial and trust me when I say that the ‘toxicity’ here is barely existent especially when we are talking about Joker. One bad egg doesn’t spoil everything here.
That's why I'm not taking any action now. And again, this past argument went past the "healthy debate" that is possible even for controversial characters, so it should have been settled privately.

I want to put an end to petty arguments in this thread, no matter who claims to have the moral high ground. If you want to learn more, read posts #113, 115, and 117, as well as the new addendum to the first post of the thread. That's end of this discussion in this thread, please DM me if you have any concerns about this.



Anyway, here's Olimar's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Gf2_XB2VnvIO-CrWPFfNvmt3AY-BGfA/viewanalytics

Nobody else voted in the past day, so :ultduckhunt: automatically won. Please respond to his poll here: https://forms.gle/VdvxxVvLpG1qXwc37


And please vote for one of these characters to be discussed tomorrow, who don't impersonate other characters for trailers (Dedede has been discussed already): :ultbowser: :ultbowserjr: :ultcorrinf: :ultdiddy::ultdk: :ultfalco: :ultfox: :ultganondorf: :ultgreninja: :ulticeclimbers: :ultike: :ultincineroar: :ultinkling: :ultisabelle: :ultjigglypuff: :ultkrool: :ultkirby: :ultlink: :ultlittlemac: :ultlucario: :ultlucas: :ultluigi: :ultmario: :ultlucina: :ultmegaman: :ultmetaknight: :ultmewtwo: :ultbrawler: :ultgunner: :ultswordfighter: :ultness: :ultpalutena: (:ultpeach:/:ultdaisy:) :ultpichu: :ultpikachu: :ultpiranha: (:ultpit:/:ultdarkpit:) :ultpokemontrainerf:[:ultsquirtle:-:ultivysaur:-:ultcharizard:] :ultridley: :ultrob: :ultrobinf: :ultrosalina: :ultroy: :ultchrom: :ultken: (:ultsamus:/:ultdarksamus:) :ultsheik: :ultshulk: (:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:) :ultsonic::ulttoonlink: :ultvillager: :ultwario: :ultwiifittrainer: :ultwolf: :ultyoshi: :ultyounglink: :ultzelda: :ultzss:

Remember to vote every day if you want your vote to count! I won't go back in the thread to look for votes that didn't win from previous days.



:ultduckhunt: got some...interesting changes from Smash 4 to here, to say the least. The changes to his smash attacks and his special moves were mostly appreciated, but he got some really strange nerfs to "compensate" for some reason, especially to his aerials. In addition, the patches haven't been too kind to his projectiles, either. Despite Raito's best efforts he's likely only mid tier, and I think some of these nerfs are to blame. Here's how I would fix him up:
  • Increase the horizontal range of U-tilt. This move was secretly gutted because you can no longer run through opponents, making it nearly impossible to land against grounded opponents. You could also change it back into a kill move instead of a combo move, but that's less important.
  • I don't see why N-air's sweetspot got less knockback in this game, as it was one of his more reliable kill moves in Smash 4. And because of its tiny range that they still haven't fixed, its "combo potential" is really hard to use, so I would fix both of those issues.
  • F-air should get its range un-nerfed from between games so he has better spacing tools.
  • I also don't see why they reduced the autocancel window of D-air in this game. Reverting it back wouldn't be that overwhelming considering the big reduction in landing lag that D-air already got, it would just give him back more pressuring options.
  • Revert 2.0.0's end lag nerf of Clay Shooting, but keep the hit stun nerf. I agree it was a little silly before, but now it's not nearly as useful because it's slower and doesn't truly combo into anything.
  • If the Can is out and the Clay Pigeon is not, any side-B inputs during Duck Jump should be treated as a shot to the Can rather than throwing out a Clay Pigeon. This move's new ability to cancel into other moves has mostly been positive, but recovering while defending yourself with the Can has been subtly but significantly nerfed because it can be interrupted with an unintended throwing of a Clay Pigeon, stopping their flight and causing them to free fall likely to their death.
  • If all of this makes him too good, I could see a slight damage nerf to Can to tone him down a little.


Voting for #:ultpiranha:GANG!
 
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If I’m somehow toxic for confronting this behavior with decent and responsible behavior, then you’re toxic for putting out this paragraph over an argument that was ALREADY SETTLED!

You know, there is something that is positive about that guy, he doesn’t put himself on a high chair of ‘goodness’ and pretend that a normal and rude conversation is somehow the equivalent of a gun fight to the death.
Yes, that’s helpful and not at all childish.

There’s no reason to come for the guy like that. He’s just moderating his thread.

Did I forget to vote? If so, I vote Rosalina.
 
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