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I guess I don't find these to be that big a problem for me as they've been a part of Smash since forever. It's just always something to factor in. I know it's caused some huge upsets in the past when someone goes for a crazy kill but gets a star ko/screen ko and the player dies before their opponent due to the mechanic. Frustrating but I suppose but these KO's, possibly just a placebo, feel faster than ever so it hasn't played a factor in any games I've played so far. These slower KOs can also be beneficial to the stock taker to get position or charge attacks as a bonus for the kill also.I'm going to say what I've been trying to suggest ever since this game got released: Star KO/Screen KO option, both offline and online...!
Now nobody blast me for my suggestion...!
I don't even understand what that point is trying to sell to us. Why should counters have a negative multiplier? The concept of a warrior turning the enemy's own strength against them is a trope as old as fiction itself, I can't imagine any reason why stopping a hefty deathblow should result in a weakened response.I was with you until the part about counters. Are we really still doing this? I thought we as a community were past the point of complaining about counters.
Apparently not.I was with you until the part about counters. Are we really still doing this? I thought we as a community were past the point of complaining about counters.
I disagree, actually. I find counters to be low risk. People can disagree with me, and that's fine. Whatever. They're not difficult to land. There's also the fact that players with counters can gimp their opponent off-stage when the opponent relies on a poor recovery in the first place. So much for that high risk. Ness, for example, is easily gimped by all FE characters, Joker, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Palutena. Even some characters whose second jump is no longer present, but must rely on an up special that has a hitbox are also punished. It's odd, really, that people ******* about Ness' d-smash punishing a lot of characters in spite of the fact that his recovery has been garbage in every game, yet Sakurai & Co. nerfed it because people *******. So much for fairness.They are high risk but also high reward.
I again just have to disagree. Counters are moves that do nothing unless your opponent actually makes something happen. If you counter and your opponent doesn't hit you, you're helpless for several seconds and open to a painful punish. Thus, in your average game, counters are difficult to land because they actively require your opponent to make the counter land in the first place. Counters are not as brain dead as many people love to tout. They're often used poorly by less experienced players and used rarely or very precisely by experienced players because they KNOW a good play will destroy them for using them poorly. I love Jokers who spam his two counters because it's free damage and puts them in a bad spot.I disagree, actually. I find counters to be low risk. People can disagree with me, and that's fine. Whatever. They're not difficult to land. There's also the fact that players with counters can gimp their opponent off-stage when the opponent relies on a poor recovery in the first place. So much for that high risk. Ness, for example, is easily gimped by all FE characters, Joker, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Palutena. Even some characters whose second jump is no longer present, but must rely on an up special that has a hitbox are also punished. It's odd, really, that people ******* about Ness' d-smash punishing a lot of characters in spite of the fact that his recovery has been garbage in every game, yet Sakurai & Co. nerfed it because people *******. So much for fairness.
Then there are some reflectors that increase the amount of damage/knock-back, even though no such thing would necessarily occur. To use Ness again, when he uses f-smash, he'll multiply the damage/knock-back on projectiles. Swinging a baseball bat at an object that's been thrown doesn't necessarily mean the speed would be increased. Yes, a baseball may travel faster after it was hit by a baseball bat, but I have a suspicious feeling that if something like, I don't know, a ball of plasma was hit by a baseball bat, it wouldn't work the same way. It's apparent that a lot of abilities characters have in this game aren't consistent, so why are they consistent here? (An example would be some characters where d-air launches them down cannot recover, while others can. cf. ZSS vs. Sonic.)
That's fine. Of course counters don't do anything unless your opponent hits it. That's a trivial truism. Not all counters are of equal frames. Peach/Daisy is invulnerable on frame 8 and lasts for 62 frames (1.03 s) if missed. Dr. Mario's Super Sheet is 35 frames (0.583 s). Mii Brawler's Counter Throw is 38 frames (0.633 s). Mii Swordfighter's Reversal Slash is 36 frames (0.6 s). Marth's, Lucina's, Roy's, and Chrom's counter are 40 frames (0.667 s). Corrin's is the worst at 66 frames (1.1 s). Joker's Rebel's Guard and Tetrakarn are 52 and 53 frames (0.867 s and 0.883 s) respectively. I don't know who said counters are brain-dead, though.I again just have to disagree. Counters are moves that do nothing unless your opponent actually makes something happen. If you counter and your opponent doesn't hit you, you're helpless for several seconds and open to a painful punish. Thus, in your average game, counters are difficult to land because they actively require your opponent to make the counter land in the first place. Counters are not as brain dead as many people love to tout. They're often used poorly by less experienced players and used rarely or very precisely by experienced players because they KNOW a good play will destroy them for using them poorly. I love Jokers who spam his two counters because it's free damage and puts them in a bad spot.
It's probably not the norm because most characters do fine recovering, but I don't see why the norm matters. Consider Duck Hunt (stage) in SSB4. Ganondorf and Little Mac were screwed if their opponent stayed on top of the tree, even if they got down every now and then to prevent stalling. Yet, neither Ganondorf, nor Little Mac were common characters (i.e., not the norm) in the tournament scene. Some characters just can't recover well, even if they wish to be unpredictable.Getting gimped with counters sucks but is not often the norm. Mix up your recovery. If someone is consistently countering you're recovery you've become predictable. Granted, some characters just have predictable recoveries (Sorry DK) and are the easiest victims to counter edge guards.
Then toss out reality itself. Why should a counter attack do additional damage, since the mechanic probably plays on the idea that you're left open? And just because you're left open doesn't necessarily mean that the counter attack is more effective than it needs to be.I'd argue that trying to apply 'that's not how physics work!' when it comes to the damage/knockback multiplier of a video game mechanic is invalid and not even worth bothering discussing. It's a video game. Not reality. Counter mechanics tend to deal more damage than taken in video games. Talk to Wubbufett about how counter/reflect mechanics work. I'm sure he'll love such a discussion on how his entire existence is a lie.
Because if it didn't it wouldn't be worth using.Why should a counter attack do additional damage, since the mechanic probably plays on the idea that you're left open?
I think it goes without saying that frame data will, of course, be different among characters. That's how characters tend to work. If they shared all too similar characteristics it diminishes the point of having other characters. Some counters are better than others. Just like some up airs are better than others. Or bairs. So on. This is just having knowledge of the game and just betters your responses to said counter/reflect. So, what is this point proving exactly?That's fine. Of course counters don't do anything unless your opponent hits it. That's a trivial truism. Not all counters are of equal frames. Peach/Daisy is invulnerable on frame 8 and lasts for 62 frames (1.03 s) if missed. Dr. Mario's Super Sheet is 35 frames (0.583 s). Mii Brawler's Counter Throw is 38 frames (0.633 s). Mii Swordfighter's Reversal Slash is 36 frames (0.6 s). Marth's, Lucina's, Roy's, and Chrom's counter are 40 frames (0.667 s). Corrin's is the worst at 66 frames (1.1 s). Joker's Rebel's Guard and Tetrakarn are 52 and 53 frames (0.867 s and 0.883 s) respectively. I don't know who said counters are brain-dead, though.
It's probably not the norm because most characters do fine recovering, but I don't see why the norm matters. Consider Duck Hunt (stage) in SSB4. Ganondorf and Little Mac were screwed if their opponent stayed on top of the tree, even if they got down every now and then to prevent stalling. Yet, neither Ganondorf, nor Little Mac were common characters (i.e., not the norm) in the tournament scene. Some characters just can't recover well, even if they wish to be unpredictable.
Then toss out reality itself. Why should a counter attack do additional damage, since the mechanic probably plays on the idea that you're left open? And just because you're left open doesn't necessarily mean that the counter attack is more effective than it needs to be.
The Robins might have a word with you about all of the FE fighters.I disagree, actually. I find counters to be low risk. People can disagree with me, and that's fine. Whatever. They're not difficult to land. There's also the fact that players with counters can gimp their opponent off-stage when the opponent relies on a poor recovery in the first place. So much for that high risk. Ness, for example, is easily gimped by all FE characters, Joker, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Palutena. Even some characters whose second jump is no longer present, but must rely on an up special that has a hitbox are also punished. It's odd, really, that people ******* about Ness' d-smash punishing a lot of characters in spite of the fact that his recovery has been garbage in every game, yet Sakurai & Co. nerfed it because people *******. So much for fairness.
Then there are some reflectors that increase the amount of damage/knock-back, even though no such thing would necessarily occur. To use Ness again, when he uses f-smash, he'll multiply the damage/knock-back on projectiles. Swinging a baseball bat at an object that's been thrown doesn't necessarily mean the speed would be increased. Yes, a baseball may travel faster after it was hit by a baseball bat, but I have a suspicious feeling that if something like, I don't know, a ball of plasma was hit by a baseball bat, it wouldn't work the same way. It's apparent that a lot of abilities characters have in this game aren't consistent, so why are they consistent here? (An example would be some characters where d-air launches them down cannot recover, while others can. cf. ZSS vs. Sonic.)
That's never kept the developers from giving characters useless moves.Because if it didn't it wouldn't be worth using.
You said, "If you counter and your opponent doesn't hit you, you're helpless for several seconds and open to a painful punish." I only wanted to show that "several seconds" isn't even accurate. Some have a little over a second, but not two seconds, and others have less than a second.So, what is this point proving exactly?
You're already aware where the argument is going, and you acknowledged it. Instead, it seems you're just dismissing it for no other reason than to just dismiss it. And norms aren't exactly proper.The norm matters because it's the average and is what we generally agree upon as a society/community. We can discuss the outliers all we want yet it doesn't really change the reality of the situation as we know it, which is counters aren't generally considered great in competitive environments. They're clutch in a hard read situation but get you in trouble when you, most likely, whiff. As for Duck Hunt stage, this seems like a stretch and I'm not sure where you're going with it other than to counter 'the norm'. While it wasn't normal for many characters to struggle on Duck Hunt due to the tree, yeah, Ganon and Mac struggled here which is what makes it a counter pick against them if you felt like being lame. Where is this argument going?
"Quite hard" isn't always the case.Throw out reality? That's what I did because we're discussing game mechanics. A counter attack in reality, in a fight, has little to do with reflecting an attack altogether but predicting a move, preventing it and hitting the opponent back (usually quite hard) due to them not expecting it.
Or counter could require fewer frames, perhaps 30 frames. If you're going to counter something, you need to be quick about it.Balance wise, a counter SHOULD do more damage because you made a prediction and got it right.
See above.A counter should hit pretty hard, because you are literally risking yourself in doing so.
Robin? Oh. I was so enamored by Hero that I forgot Robin existed.The Robins might have a word with you about all of the FE fighters.
Sure, but everything in our universe relies on physics and logic. These are applied to video games as well, even if their physics, at least, are different. But I have more issues with SSBU besides this. I'd like to see a better balance and fixes than what's currently in SSBU.Also, did you seriously just try to apply real world physics and logic to Smash? Are you also aware that getting stabbed or blown up would cause serious injuries to normal humans?
I'm not too worried about King K. Rool. His head is already vulnerable when he uses Gut Check. I think Joker's Tetrakarn needs some nerfing, though.As far as counters go, I would actually buff Gut Check. Either make him turn around, or increase the multiplier even more. I wouldn't be opposed to something ludicrous like a X2 multiplier given it is very likely the absolute worst counter in the game even with reflector functionality. Seriously, why does Joker have a higher multiplier than this much harder to land counter (which still reflects too)? One good side to at least is apparently even if the reflector is broken, the counter still activates preventing him from eating a super charged projectile.
Real world physics is still a poor case to use when you have all this other impossible stuff going on. Hitting something with a bat to make it stronger and faster is actually fairly reasonable compared to some of the stuff.Sure, but everything in our universe relies on physics and logic. These are applied to video games as well, even if their physics, at least, are different. But I have more issues with SSBU besides this. I'd like to see a better balance and fixes than what's currently in SSBU.
I'm not too worried about King K. Rool. His head is already vulnerable when he uses Gut Check. I think Joker's Tetrakarn needs some nerfing, though.
That's not an argument for taking a balanced move and making it useless. It's not even an argument for taking an OP move and making it useless.That's never kept the developers from giving characters useless moves.
Yeah, I understand. Before posting about Ness' baseball bat, I actually wanted to see if a baseball would travel faster if hit, and I'm glad I checked.Real world physics is still a poor case to use when you have all this other impossible stuff going on. Hitting something with a bat to make it stronger and faster is actually fairly reasonable compared to some of the stuff.
The irony with Gut Check is that I believe crocodiles have vulnerable underbellies. I have a lot of issues with Joker, but it mainly pertains to Arsene. Anyway, I'm fine with people disagreeing with me here. If counters are to remain powerful, I'd be in favor of reducing the frames for a weaker or neutral multiplier. The risk wouldn't be too bad.Yeah, Gut Check leaves him vulnerable, but that isn't good balance. It needs some buffs. I think it should at least be the strongest counter to make up for its weaknesses. I think it has somewhat decent invulnerability and maybe active frames, but when Joker's is stronger and covers his whole body while reflecting as well, there is seemingly some balance issues. Though, I don't know if it's stronger as both a counter and a reflector or just one. Either way, I don't think it should be either.