Ultimate Buzzkills to Patch, Features To Add, and Nerfs to Apply [4.0 Thread]

VGFan95

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#1
Smash Ultimate has reached Patch 4.0 and still has some buzzkills that need to be fixed.

Buzzkills To Patch

Buzzkill #1 - Encountering Undesirable Stages [Online]
To remedy this buzzkill, another option should be added to the "Preferred Rules" menu for stage style:
  • Mixed Styles
The "Mixed Styles" setting contains a combination of Hazards On, Hazards Off, Battlefield, and Omega form stages.
To guarantee a great stage is played, the stage pool for "Mixed Styles" is limited to the following 25 Stages:

Smash Ultimate Online Mixed Styles Stage Pool.jpg

Don't see a particular stage on this sheet? It's probably not anodyne. Here's why.

* Town and City, Fountain of Dreams, and Pokemon Stadium have Hazards ON. All other stages have Hazards OFF.

To be able to use this stage sheet, 6 of the stages require adjustment to their [Normal - Hazards Off] form.
Follow the corresponding link for more detail:
These changes would allow the above 25 stage size pool to be used.
If these changes are not made, a 15 stage size pool can be used instead.


Buzzkill #2 - Encountering Serious Spam in Team Battle [Online]
To remedy this buzzkill, add a Team Attack ON / Team Attack OFF option to the "Preferred Rules" menu, for use in 2 vs 2 online play.
"Team Attack" is not just a feature competitive players use. It reduces projectile and other spam, which can often be a buzzkill.

Buzzkill #3 - Encountering a Drastically Different Rule-set [Online]
To remedy this buzzkill, add a Force ON / Force OFF option to the "Preferred Rules" menu.
This would ensure that the player is matched with a player using the same rule-set, at the expense of waiting in queue longer.

Buzzkill #4 - Encountering Undesirable Music [Online]
To remedy this buzzkill, let the Stage Music Preferences that the player has defined for offline play apply for online play too.
Stage music is not synced between players, and there is no point in forcing all players to listen to the same track.


Features to Add
It can be hard to get buzzkills fixed, even though it would give the game more polish and a longer lifespan.
Something more "marketable" may need to be mixed in with the buzzkill fixes for them to ever get implemented.

Feature #1 - Team Battle Quickplay with a Remote Friend [Online]
This would allow remote friends to play Online Team Battle together.

Feature #2 - Allow multiple players on the same Switch to join the same [Friends Only] Battle Arena [Online]
This would allow larger remote parties to play together online.

Feature #3 - Mixed Styles Random Stage Selection [Offline]
This would allow players to create their own "Mixed Styles" stage pool, similar to what has been suggested above for online play.

Feature #4 - Configurable Poke-ball and Assist Trophies Spawn Pools [Offline]
This would allow the pool of Pokemon that can come out of a poke-ball and the pool of assistants that can come out of an Assist Trophy to be configurable.

Feature #5 - Configurable Stock Count in Squad Strike Elimination Mode [Offline]
This would allow Squad Strike Elimination Mode to replicate all the features of a traditional crew battle.
Stock count for the victor would carry over to the next round.

Feature #6 - Static Launch Trail Color Option [Global]
This would force the color of the launch trail smoke to match the port color of the player that got hit, instead of the player that dealt the hit.

Feature #7 - Toggle-able Special-KO Option [Offline]
This would add a toggle to the Rules menu, to enable/disable Star-KO and Screen KOs.

Feature #8 - Setting to allow host to skip line in a [Password Protected] Battle Arena [Online]
This would allow content creators (streamers) to be more interactive with their viewers.

Feature #9 - Ability to change Character / Stage / Music without moving to back of line in a [Friends Only] Battle Arena [Online]
This would allow players to adjust these things without being sent to the back of the line.

Feature #10 - Break the Targets Builder [Global]
This is essentially adding the "Break the Targets" targets to Stage Builder.
Players could share their Break the Targets stages in the same manner that Custom Stages can be shared.


Nerfs To Apply
This section is really only included because without it, nobody talks about my post and the buzzkills will never get fixed.

Counterattack Nerfs
The knockback and damage multiplier for the following counterattacks seems too significant:
These can all be used as an on-stage KO option, which seems unhealthy for the game.

Hero Nerfs
Critical Hit, Thwack, and Whack activation chances seem to high.


Edits to this Post
8/18/2019
 
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William5000000

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#2
I'm going to say what I've been trying to suggest ever since this game got released: Star KO/Screen KO option, both offline and online...!

Now nobody blast me for my suggestion...!
 

Wigglerman

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#3
I'm going to say what I've been trying to suggest ever since this game got released: Star KO/Screen KO option, both offline and online...!

Now nobody blast me for my suggestion...!
I guess I don't find these to be that big a problem for me as they've been a part of Smash since forever. It's just always something to factor in. I know it's caused some huge upsets in the past when someone goes for a crazy kill but gets a star ko/screen ko and the player dies before their opponent due to the mechanic. Frustrating but I suppose but these KO's, possibly just a placebo, feel faster than ever so it hasn't played a factor in any games I've played so far. These slower KOs can also be beneficial to the stock taker to get position or charge attacks as a bonus for the kill also.
 
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#4
I was with you until the part about counters. Are we really still doing this? I thought we as a community were past the point of complaining about counters.
 

Xelrog

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#5
No arbitrary pool of stages will satisfy everyone in the community. Even tournament hosts don't agree on stage pools unanimously. What makes yours so special?

The only features I really care about being patched are various arena fixes, among which would be the ability to have multiple players on one console in one arena. But more important than that is not removing you from line for changing your character or music, and including a mode that keeps the host in the arena at all times. That you can't do this, kills arenas for streamers.

I'm honestly totally fine with Quickplay. It would be neat if it were better at getting your preferred rules more often, but I'll take nine times out of ten if it means I'm not dealing with atrocious online lag like every previous Smash online. Performance must be the absolute top priority.
 

Arrei

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#6
I was with you until the part about counters. Are we really still doing this? I thought we as a community were past the point of complaining about counters.
I don't even understand what that point is trying to sell to us. Why should counters have a negative multiplier? The concept of a warrior turning the enemy's own strength against them is a trope as old as fiction itself, I can't imagine any reason why stopping a hefty deathblow should result in a weakened response.
 

Arthur97

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#8
Seriously, why would you make counters weaker? Generally, they're already kind of hard to land. You should be rewarded for managing it.
 

Wigglerman

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#9
Counters are frustrating but that's the point. If you get read, you get hurt. They are high risk but also high reward. A missed counter often means you'll be taking big damage for the mistake as opposed to going 'gotchya' to your opponent if you land it. I used to hate counters until I played more and just understood them better and began to play better.

Also a lot of counters aren't even that good anymore. A lot of counters whiff even when you get them off (especially in the case of a character who is on the ground countering an aerial).
 

Quillion

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#10
I still think they should patch in the ability to turn off A-stick Smashes so you can use A-stick solely for tilts and C-stick solely for smashes.
 
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#11
They are high risk but also high reward.
I disagree, actually. I find counters to be low risk. People can disagree with me, and that's fine. Whatever. They're not difficult to land. There's also the fact that players with counters can gimp their opponent off-stage when the opponent relies on a poor recovery in the first place. So much for that high risk. Ness, for example, is easily gimped by all FE characters, Joker, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Palutena. Even some characters whose second jump is no longer present, but must rely on an up special that has a hitbox are also punished. It's odd, really, that people ******* about Ness' d-smash punishing a lot of characters in spite of the fact that his recovery has been garbage in every game, yet Sakurai & Co. nerfed it because people *******. So much for fairness.

Then there are some reflectors that increase the amount of damage/knock-back, even though no such thing would necessarily occur. To use Ness again, when he uses f-smash, he'll multiply the damage/knock-back on projectiles. Swinging a baseball bat at an object that's been thrown doesn't necessarily mean the speed would be increased. Yes, a baseball may travel faster after it was hit by a baseball bat, but I have a suspicious feeling that if something like, I don't know, a ball of plasma was hit by a baseball bat, it wouldn't work the same way. It's apparent that a lot of abilities characters have in this game aren't consistent, so why are they consistent here? (An example would be some characters where d-air launches them down cannot recover, while others can. cf. ZSS vs. Sonic.)
 
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Wigglerman

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#12
I disagree, actually. I find counters to be low risk. People can disagree with me, and that's fine. Whatever. They're not difficult to land. There's also the fact that players with counters can gimp their opponent off-stage when the opponent relies on a poor recovery in the first place. So much for that high risk. Ness, for example, is easily gimped by all FE characters, Joker, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Palutena. Even some characters whose second jump is no longer present, but must rely on an up special that has a hitbox are also punished. It's odd, really, that people ******* about Ness' d-smash punishing a lot of characters in spite of the fact that his recovery has been garbage in every game, yet Sakurai & Co. nerfed it because people *******. So much for fairness.

Then there are some reflectors that increase the amount of damage/knock-back, even though no such thing would necessarily occur. To use Ness again, when he uses f-smash, he'll multiply the damage/knock-back on projectiles. Swinging a baseball bat at an object that's been thrown doesn't necessarily mean the speed would be increased. Yes, a baseball may travel faster after it was hit by a baseball bat, but I have a suspicious feeling that if something like, I don't know, a ball of plasma was hit by a baseball bat, it wouldn't work the same way. It's apparent that a lot of abilities characters have in this game aren't consistent, so why are they consistent here? (An example would be some characters where d-air launches them down cannot recover, while others can. cf. ZSS vs. Sonic.)
I again just have to disagree. Counters are moves that do nothing unless your opponent actually makes something happen. If you counter and your opponent doesn't hit you, you're helpless for several seconds and open to a painful punish. Thus, in your average game, counters are difficult to land because they actively require your opponent to make the counter land in the first place. Counters are not as brain dead as many people love to tout. They're often used poorly by less experienced players and used rarely or very precisely by experienced players because they KNOW a good play will destroy them for using them poorly. I love Jokers who spam his two counters because it's free damage and puts them in a bad spot.

Getting gimped with counters sucks but is not often the norm. Mix up your recovery. If someone is consistently countering you're recovery you've become predictable. Granted, some characters just have predictable recoveries (Sorry DK) and are the easiest victims to counter edge guards.

I'd argue that trying to apply 'that's not how physics work!' when it comes to the damage/knockback multiplier of a video game mechanic is invalid and not even worth bothering discussing. It's a video game. Not reality. Counter mechanics tend to deal more damage than taken in video games. Talk to Wubbufett about how counter/reflect mechanics work. I'm sure he'll love such a discussion on how his entire existence is a lie. :p
 
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#13
I again just have to disagree. Counters are moves that do nothing unless your opponent actually makes something happen. If you counter and your opponent doesn't hit you, you're helpless for several seconds and open to a painful punish. Thus, in your average game, counters are difficult to land because they actively require your opponent to make the counter land in the first place. Counters are not as brain dead as many people love to tout. They're often used poorly by less experienced players and used rarely or very precisely by experienced players because they KNOW a good play will destroy them for using them poorly. I love Jokers who spam his two counters because it's free damage and puts them in a bad spot.
That's fine. Of course counters don't do anything unless your opponent hits it. That's a trivial truism. Not all counters are of equal frames. Peach/Daisy is invulnerable on frame 8 and lasts for 62 frames (1.03 s) if missed. Dr. Mario's Super Sheet is 35 frames (0.583 s). Mii Brawler's Counter Throw is 38 frames (0.633 s). Mii Swordfighter's Reversal Slash is 36 frames (0.6 s). Marth's, Lucina's, Roy's, and Chrom's counter are 40 frames (0.667 s). Corrin's is the worst at 66 frames (1.1 s). Joker's Rebel's Guard and Tetrakarn are 52 and 53 frames (0.867 s and 0.883 s) respectively. I don't know who said counters are brain-dead, though.

Getting gimped with counters sucks but is not often the norm. Mix up your recovery. If someone is consistently countering you're recovery you've become predictable. Granted, some characters just have predictable recoveries (Sorry DK) and are the easiest victims to counter edge guards.
It's probably not the norm because most characters do fine recovering, but I don't see why the norm matters. Consider Duck Hunt (stage) in SSB4. Ganondorf and Little Mac were screwed if their opponent stayed on top of the tree, even if they got down every now and then to prevent stalling. Yet, neither Ganondorf, nor Little Mac were common characters (i.e., not the norm) in the tournament scene. Some characters just can't recover well, even if they wish to be unpredictable.

I'd argue that trying to apply 'that's not how physics work!' when it comes to the damage/knockback multiplier of a video game mechanic is invalid and not even worth bothering discussing. It's a video game. Not reality. Counter mechanics tend to deal more damage than taken in video games. Talk to Wubbufett about how counter/reflect mechanics work. I'm sure he'll love such a discussion on how his entire existence is a lie. :p
Then toss out reality itself. Why should a counter attack do additional damage, since the mechanic probably plays on the idea that you're left open? And just because you're left open doesn't necessarily mean that the counter attack is more effective than it needs to be.
 
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Wigglerman

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#15
That's fine. Of course counters don't do anything unless your opponent hits it. That's a trivial truism. Not all counters are of equal frames. Peach/Daisy is invulnerable on frame 8 and lasts for 62 frames (1.03 s) if missed. Dr. Mario's Super Sheet is 35 frames (0.583 s). Mii Brawler's Counter Throw is 38 frames (0.633 s). Mii Swordfighter's Reversal Slash is 36 frames (0.6 s). Marth's, Lucina's, Roy's, and Chrom's counter are 40 frames (0.667 s). Corrin's is the worst at 66 frames (1.1 s). Joker's Rebel's Guard and Tetrakarn are 52 and 53 frames (0.867 s and 0.883 s) respectively. I don't know who said counters are brain-dead, though.



It's probably not the norm because most characters do fine recovering, but I don't see why the norm matters. Consider Duck Hunt (stage) in SSB4. Ganondorf and Little Mac were screwed if their opponent stayed on top of the tree, even if they got down every now and then to prevent stalling. Yet, neither Ganondorf, nor Little Mac were common characters (i.e., not the norm) in the tournament scene. Some characters just can't recover well, even if they wish to be unpredictable.



Then toss out reality itself. Why should a counter attack do additional damage, since the mechanic probably plays on the idea that you're left open? And just because you're left open doesn't necessarily mean that the counter attack is more effective than it needs to be.
I think it goes without saying that frame data will, of course, be different among characters. That's how characters tend to work. If they shared all too similar characteristics it diminishes the point of having other characters. Some counters are better than others. Just like some up airs are better than others. Or bairs. So on. This is just having knowledge of the game and just betters your responses to said counter/reflect. So, what is this point proving exactly?

The norm matters because it's the average and is what we generally agree upon as a society/community. We can discuss the outliers all we want yet it doesn't really change the reality of the situation as we know it, which is counters aren't generally considered great in competitive environments. They're clutch in a hard read situation but get you in trouble when you, most likely, whiff. As for Duck Hunt stage, this seems like a stretch and I'm not sure where you're going with it other than to counter 'the norm'. While it wasn't normal for many characters to struggle on Duck Hunt due to the tree, yeah, Ganon and Mac struggled here which is what makes it a counter pick against them if you felt like being lame. Where is this argument going?

Throw out reality? That's what I did because we're discussing game mechanics. A counter attack in reality, in a fight, has little to do with reflecting an attack altogether but predicting a move, preventing it and hitting the opponent back (usually quite hard) due to them not expecting it. The counter mechanic in Smash represents that but glorifies it more because video games are a spectacle and it looks flashy when you do it. Balance wise, a counter SHOULD do more damage because you made a prediction and got it right. You risked getting hit if you screwed up (When you could just shield or move away) but went for something far less safe, and in succeeding you get to hit them back, hard, for doing so. A counter should hit pretty hard, because you are literally risking yourself in doing so. That's where the balance comes in. If you hit like a wet noodle, there'd be no reason to ever use a counter/reflect. These moves also exist to keep people in check. If you know your opponent can reflect projectiles, it's going to make you weary of using them willy nilly. A Samus shouldn't be able to stand across stage, free, and fire missiles and charge shots all she wants. CHaracters who can reflect exist to give such characters pause in that game plan.

Are some counters overly strong? Sure. I'd argue Joker's Arsen fueled counter is probably busted in the modifier department, similar to how Corrin's was pretty nutty in Smash 4. They could afford some tweaking down. Though not many counters in Ultimate are actually THAT powerful unless you were already at high percents anyway, and unless used as an edge guard, the stock could have been achieved easier (and faster) by using any other move.
 
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Arthur97

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#16
I disagree, actually. I find counters to be low risk. People can disagree with me, and that's fine. Whatever. They're not difficult to land. There's also the fact that players with counters can gimp their opponent off-stage when the opponent relies on a poor recovery in the first place. So much for that high risk. Ness, for example, is easily gimped by all FE characters, Joker, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Palutena. Even some characters whose second jump is no longer present, but must rely on an up special that has a hitbox are also punished. It's odd, really, that people ******* about Ness' d-smash punishing a lot of characters in spite of the fact that his recovery has been garbage in every game, yet Sakurai & Co. nerfed it because people *******. So much for fairness.

Then there are some reflectors that increase the amount of damage/knock-back, even though no such thing would necessarily occur. To use Ness again, when he uses f-smash, he'll multiply the damage/knock-back on projectiles. Swinging a baseball bat at an object that's been thrown doesn't necessarily mean the speed would be increased. Yes, a baseball may travel faster after it was hit by a baseball bat, but I have a suspicious feeling that if something like, I don't know, a ball of plasma was hit by a baseball bat, it wouldn't work the same way. It's apparent that a lot of abilities characters have in this game aren't consistent, so why are they consistent here? (An example would be some characters where d-air launches them down cannot recover, while others can. cf. ZSS vs. Sonic.)
The Robins might have a word with you about all of the FE fighters.

Also, did you seriously just try to apply real world physics and logic to Smash? Are you also aware that getting stabbed or blown up would cause serious injuries to normal humans?

As far as counters go, I would actually buff Gut Check. Either make him turn around, or increase the multiplier even more. I wouldn't be opposed to something ludicrous like a X2 multiplier given it is very likely the absolute worst counter in the game even with reflector functionality. Seriously, why does Joker have a higher multiplier than this much harder to land counter (which still reflects too)? One good side to at least is apparently even if the reflector is broken, the counter still activates preventing him from eating a super charged projectile.
 
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#17
Because if it didn't it wouldn't be worth using.
That's never kept the developers from giving characters useless moves.

So, what is this point proving exactly?
You said, "If you counter and your opponent doesn't hit you, you're helpless for several seconds and open to a painful punish." I only wanted to show that "several seconds" isn't even accurate. Some have a little over a second, but not two seconds, and others have less than a second.


The norm matters because it's the average and is what we generally agree upon as a society/community. We can discuss the outliers all we want yet it doesn't really change the reality of the situation as we know it, which is counters aren't generally considered great in competitive environments. They're clutch in a hard read situation but get you in trouble when you, most likely, whiff. As for Duck Hunt stage, this seems like a stretch and I'm not sure where you're going with it other than to counter 'the norm'. While it wasn't normal for many characters to struggle on Duck Hunt due to the tree, yeah, Ganon and Mac struggled here which is what makes it a counter pick against them if you felt like being lame. Where is this argument going?
You're already aware where the argument is going, and you acknowledged it. Instead, it seems you're just dismissing it for no other reason than to just dismiss it. And norms aren't exactly proper.

Throw out reality? That's what I did because we're discussing game mechanics. A counter attack in reality, in a fight, has little to do with reflecting an attack altogether but predicting a move, preventing it and hitting the opponent back (usually quite hard) due to them not expecting it.
"Quite hard" isn't always the case.

Balance wise, a counter SHOULD do more damage because you made a prediction and got it right.
Or counter could require fewer frames, perhaps 30 frames. If you're going to counter something, you need to be quick about it.

A counter should hit pretty hard, because you are literally risking yourself in doing so.
See above.

The Robins might have a word with you about all of the FE fighters.
Robin? Oh. I was so enamored by Hero that I forgot Robin existed. :laugh:

Also, did you seriously just try to apply real world physics and logic to Smash? Are you also aware that getting stabbed or blown up would cause serious injuries to normal humans?
Sure, but everything in our universe relies on physics and logic. These are applied to video games as well, even if their physics, at least, are different. But I have more issues with SSBU besides this. I'd like to see a better balance and fixes than what's currently in SSBU.

As far as counters go, I would actually buff Gut Check. Either make him turn around, or increase the multiplier even more. I wouldn't be opposed to something ludicrous like a X2 multiplier given it is very likely the absolute worst counter in the game even with reflector functionality. Seriously, why does Joker have a higher multiplier than this much harder to land counter (which still reflects too)? One good side to at least is apparently even if the reflector is broken, the counter still activates preventing him from eating a super charged projectile.
I'm not too worried about King K. Rool. His head is already vulnerable when he uses Gut Check. I think Joker's Tetrakarn needs some nerfing, though.
 

Arthur97

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#18
Sure, but everything in our universe relies on physics and logic. These are applied to video games as well, even if their physics, at least, are different. But I have more issues with SSBU besides this. I'd like to see a better balance and fixes than what's currently in SSBU.



I'm not too worried about King K. Rool. His head is already vulnerable when he uses Gut Check. I think Joker's Tetrakarn needs some nerfing, though.
Real world physics is still a poor case to use when you have all this other impossible stuff going on. Hitting something with a bat to make it stronger and faster is actually fairly reasonable compared to some of the stuff.

Yeah, Gut Check leaves him vulnerable, but that isn't good balance. It needs some buffs. I think it should at least be the strongest counter to make up for its weaknesses. I think it has somewhat decent invulnerability and maybe active frames, but when Joker's is stronger and covers his whole body while reflecting as well, there is seemingly some balance issues. Though, I don't know if it's stronger as both a counter and a reflector or just one. Either way, I don't think it should be either.
 
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#20
Real world physics is still a poor case to use when you have all this other impossible stuff going on. Hitting something with a bat to make it stronger and faster is actually fairly reasonable compared to some of the stuff.
Yeah, I understand. Before posting about Ness' baseball bat, I actually wanted to see if a baseball would travel faster if hit, and I'm glad I checked.

Yeah, Gut Check leaves him vulnerable, but that isn't good balance. It needs some buffs. I think it should at least be the strongest counter to make up for its weaknesses. I think it has somewhat decent invulnerability and maybe active frames, but when Joker's is stronger and covers his whole body while reflecting as well, there is seemingly some balance issues. Though, I don't know if it's stronger as both a counter and a reflector or just one. Either way, I don't think it should be either.
The irony with Gut Check is that I believe crocodiles have vulnerable underbellies. I have a lot of issues with Joker, but it mainly pertains to Arsene. Anyway, I'm fine with people disagreeing with me here. If counters are to remain powerful, I'd be in favor of reducing the frames for a weaker or neutral multiplier. The risk wouldn't be too bad.
 
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