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Ultimate Bowser Moveset Analysis

UltimaLuminaire

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UltimaLuminaire
"I'm an earthquake in a bottle, I'm lightning in a can!"

Bowser in Ultimate has received significant changes, many of them thanks to implementation of universal mechanics such as 3 frame jump squat. However, with this new iteration of Bowser, our foes have also been upgraded. This thread is dedicated to researching and analyzing Bowser's entire toolkit. From ground to air and back to ground again, what are Bowser's options and how do we optimize each trade and victory in neutral?

N/A
N/A
N/A
N/A
Patch 1.1.0

It is still early in Ultimate's life cycle. As such, this thread is an ongoing effort to compile observations and research. Please check back for future updates and/or contribute at leisure.
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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Bowser Bomb's spike hitbox combos into another hitbox towards the ground at low % against big characters.

https://twitter.com/KingKongSsb/status/1072907216905269249

It's big damage. 38% 1v1
According to KingKong, the grounded Bomb spikes specific characters:
"grounded downB near the ledge means insta kill (Kill early in%) against those characters: DK, Samus, Dark Samus, Jigglypuff, Peach, Daisy, Rosalina (must not hit Luma), Ridley, King K. Rool. Basically, if you shield a get up attack you get a kill with Down B"

Furthermore, both Static and KingKong have been kind enough to make demonstrations of combo possibilities:
Static giving an example of NAir as a combo starter
https://twitter.com/TGStatic/status/1072267193696555008
Example combo starters and strings by KingKong
https://youtu.be/NkiODTVuFlw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5C7ib3evt0

Finally, here's an example of b reverse Klaw from KingKong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPv0wclYXdo
 
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raromero89

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Not sure if this is the right thread to post this question on, but do we have a good landing option? In smash4 we had Koopa Klaw that allowed us to land with no lag. But that has been removed. :(
 

B!squick

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Can always Bomb to the ledge. Ledge isn't as scary anymore. Failing that, DAir and Bomb in general for mix-up is good. NAir is pretty reliable. Klaw is going to be just as good as anything else really. There's also the fact you can AD in directions now. A lot of characters have weaker UpAirs now anyway.
 

Bynine

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i would love to know when bowser's heavy armor on tilts/smash attacks comes into play. i've very rarely seen it activate so knowing when it does would be useful info.
 

B!squick

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I think it's only on a few start up frames, I'm not sure myself. We'll probably have to wait until we get some hard frame data.
 

S_B

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i would love to know when bowser's heavy armor on tilts/smash attacks comes into play. i've very rarely seen it activate so knowing when it does would be useful info.
As would I.

I've played a fair amount of Bowser and it's still very much unclear to me if there's any difference between TG and these alleged super armor frames on tilts and smashes.

I've yet to see it activate in any of my matches thus far...
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Decided to dump what I know about Bowser's changes. Let me know what I missed.

Bowser Stat Changes
  • Weight increase. Now 135 from 130.
  • Run speed increase of 10% - which is a very average boost for most of the roster.
  • Air speed increase of 15.5% - which is much higher than the average 5% air speed increase for most characters
  • Fall speed increase of 27.34% - effectively no longer a "floaty heavyweight" now that he can fall faster than sheik. This should improve his vertical survivability but also make him even easier to combo vertically.
  • Walk speed increase - though it doesn't matter much given what you can do from a run in this game.
Engine Changes
  • Jumpsquats are now 3 frames universally. Bowser can take off from the ground five frames faster, vastly improving combos and the viability of shorthop aerials.
  • Characters rise to the top of their initial jump height much faster. Further aiding combo starters from the ground. Be sure not to burn your double jump too hastily if you need to reach somewhere high fast.
  • Landing lag drastically reduced on about 98% of aerials. See his aerials for the new numbers
  • Run cancels. You can do any grounded attack out of a run without having to come to a complete stop first. Bowser's grounded moves have insane reach and priority and his run speed is still incredible so he benefits from this more than most.

Jab 1
  • Base Damage: 4% from 5%
  • Endlag increased by 4. Transitions to Jab 2 on frame 10 from 12.
  • Knockback angle changed. Now hit victim toward Bowser if they are too far and away from him if they are too close. Bowser can now jab lock with this move as a result.

Jab followups other than maybe Side B are definitely a thing of the past thanks to the endlag increase and that's a shame. Your best bet is to finish the jab combo, to put them in a disadvantage state or edgeguard situation. As for the knockback angle change, this is technically a global change as almost every character in the game had their Jab 1 changed to this new autolink-esque angle. As well as better jab transitions to ensure victims don't fall out as easily. Being able to jab lock is an exciting set of possibilities completely new to Bowser, though it should be noted that jab locking itself has been changed in Ultimate more for the worse than for the better.

Jab 2
  • Base Damage: 6% from 6.5%
Ftilt
  • New Knockback based heavy armor on frame 7-9.
  • Relevant Engine Change: Character position barriers increased. Now that you can't walk or run inside another player when on the ground, Bowser will no longer F-tilt past an opponent

Utilt

  • Utilt Base Damage 11% from 9%
  • New Knockback based heavy armor on frame 8-10

Of all of Bowser's moves to get a little bit of armor, I find this to be the most exciting. Bowser's Utilt had the disjoint to beat a Cloud Dair with sufficient timing and being able to do this from a run gives him great pressure against landings and sharking platforms.

Dtilt
  • Base Damage 7% and 8% from 14% and 11%
  • Knockback based armor on frame 7-9
  • Second swipe on frame 15 from 20. Total frames unchanged.

I didn't like the damage change at first, but since two swipes connecting almost never happened in Smash 4, the real damage change is 15 from 14. And a larger window to (randomly) cause trips at low percents is a nice bonus too. The second swipe appears to match Smash 4's swipe 1 in kill power as well, maybe even before the 1v1 damage multiplier is applied which is a nice surprise. I wish they put some armor frames in between swipes and toned down the endlag now that the move ends earlier, but otherwise I'm much more optimistic about this move than I was pre-release.

Dash Attack
  • No longer has a weaker late hit.

Nothing significant has changed with this attack. It was a great burst option in the previous game, but now that Bowser's got his full toolset available from a run, I can't see this move competing as much with his tilts. About half of Smash 4's dash attacks got a buff in endlag to compete with their other grounded tools so it's a little bit of a shame to see Bowser's not get one.

Fsmash
  • Knockback based armor on frame 17-19.
Still the old drop kick

Usmash
  • Damage increased. 22% base on shell from 20%. Sourspot hit now 16% from 15. Landing hit now 12% from 6%
  • Knockback based armor on frame 11-13 and 28-31. In other words, three frames before and four frames after invincibility window.
  • Relevant engine change, you can Usmash directly out of shield, no need to jump cancel first.
Dsmash - Completely New Move
  • Now a double swipe on frames 12 and 28 dealing 15 and 16% respectively. 73 FAF.
  • Knockback based armor on 5-11
I haven't played much with this move. It hits ledge hangers, has good range, it will kill, it's laggy. Not much jumps out at me besides that armor window being quite generous. I wish the second swipe also had some armor before it came out. If you want an early kill move out of a run against a grounded opponent, use this instead of the longer windup Fsmash. But if they're already at very high 130+ percent, settle for the F-Tilt instead which will open up less of a punish window if you miss or get blocked.

Nair
  • Landing lag now 15 from 20
Starfish combos look great in Training Mode but this is still an iffy move to fall on people with due to the arm and leg knockback values being wildly different. The combo potential is considerable. N-air to B-air is a fabulous true kill confirm, but you've just gotta hope your attacks hit the opponent right and targets smaller than Mario rarely get hit by the feet hitboxes unless your timing is excellent. And if they do block, hit them with Side B. It will probably work unless they panic dodge roll away.

Fair
  • Landing lag now 14 from 24.
Landing Fair is miles better in this game, and can set up into combos of its own at certain percent windows. Switch between auto cancel timing and landing Fairs in order to stay unpredictable. If your Fairs come out at the same time every time while you space, you open yourself up to being perfect shielded. This move is still best as a spacing tool and its wide radius, range and damage make it a massive threat offstage for edgeguarding.

Bair
  • Landing lag now 24 from 40.
You can still expect to be punished when your landing Bair is blocked, but at least the punish will be something small rather than a smash attack. This move is still insane with its damage and kill power for a 9 startup attack.

Uair
  • Landing lag now 17 from 28.
Landing lag isn't insane, but it will at least set up for its own combos if you manage to get a falling hit.

Dair
  • Landing lag now 35 from 40.
Fire Breath
  • Base Damage increase 1.7% from 1.2%
  • Relevant engine change: All attacks have more hitlag in Smash Ultimate, and that directly improves this move's ability to link into itself.
Still can't reflect gordos, damn. Fire Breath is pretty great. No longer can opponents just hold up and mash jump after a few hits to escape. And the damage increase ups the reward for such a high risk attack. I think this is the first game where Fire Breath can finally serve as part of Bowser's general game plan. Don't forget to blast people recovering if you're too afraid to go offstage for the finisher.

Flying Slam
  • Startup now 6 from 8 on the ground, and 6 from 17 in the air.
  • FAF now 52 from 42 on the ground and 52 from 49 in the air.
  • No longer auto cancels on every frame. If you land during this attack, it will play out the rest of your lag as the grounded version.
Frame 6 air grab should speak for itself - broken. Nobody anticipates being grabbed from the air unless it's a move that's reactable like Ganon or Incineroar, or a grab with very little reward like Wario or Mewtwo, so this move is insane to land with if your opponent thinks they can shield grab some regular aerial. You can Full hop SIde B somebody on a platform near you for a free grab. You can let go of ledge and jump up with Side B to surprise them. You can combo into Side B from aerials if that's your thing. And landing on platforms or on the edge of the stage can still result in some very early vertical kills. Please note that Bowsercide is still bugged and will release victims. Bowsercide should not be attempted unless you're certain they don't have the recovery to make it back, otherwise you will have gained nothing. Bowser survives more punishment than any other character before dying, so you don't want to throw those precious stocks away before you think you got the most out of them.

Whirling Fortress (ground)
  • Final hit base damage increase of 4% to 6%
  • Relevant engine change, you can Up B directly from a shield state. No need to jump cancel first. This is great because timing an Up B during a 3 frame window would be very tricky.
More damage on grounded fortress was actually on my wishlist of Bowser buffs, since I felt like it didn't grant as much reward as it should. It can also kill at much more reasonable percents if they are sent to the nearest horizontal blast zone. But otherwise the move's drawbacks appear to be intact.

Whirling Fortress (air)
  • Total base damage reduced. Now 19% from 35%
  • Hits 12 times total from 11.
  • Hits now connect into the full move, and final hit now launches victim up and away from Bowser.
  • Landing lag now 36 from 50
The damage reduction is drastic, but if you've ever tried using this attack in Smash 4 you knew how bad it was. Victims fell out of it without even making any inputs. Now the move combos into itself and the launching final hit protects Bowser from what would have been a guaranteed punish in Smash 4 if you successfully hit somebody with this move. The move also has respectable disjoint. In Smash 4, we couldn't even reliably trade hits from a late nair from Mario. But now we cut through such short range moves like butter. Edgeguarding Bowser is still very doable, especially with a sword, but not as effortless as it used to be for the average opponent. Hopefully resulting in fewer scenarios where Bowser spends the latter half of his stock getting repeatedly B-aired at the ledge before finally dying. The landing lag reduction also furthers this move's use as an air combo finisher, and makes it more enticing to fly past the ledge directly onto the stage. I should also note Fortress Boosting is still in the game. And from very minor testing I personally believe gaining optimal height is the same wait-before-mashing method as it was in Smash 4 which sucks. I wish we could just mash whenever we want like with Luigi Cyclone.

Bowser Bomb
  • Now a meteor angle on the first hit frame when falling. This also applies to the ground version, though you won't see it unless your initial rising hit connected with an opponent already airborne or DI-ing in a weird way.
Probably the move I played with the least. I don't especially care for the meteor angle since our D-air already does this on its first active hit frames. And I'm worried the grounded version will be techable if the meteor angle connects. Though I am curious if there's a scenario you could bomb to the ledge from onstage and meteor somebody to their doom

Grabs
  • Standing grab startup now 8 from 9. FAF now 41 from 39
  • Dash grab startup now 11 from 10. Total frames now 49 from 48
All grabs have increased endlag in Ultimate compared to last game. Usually increases of around six with the exception of tether grabs. So Bowser got off the hook in this regard.

F and Bthrows (unchanged)

Uthrow
  • Base damage increase. Now 11.5 from 6.5%
  • 7 frames more endlag
  • Collateral hitbox no longer ejects other characters caught in the multihit off to the sides. Now they are simply launched vertically.
  • Obvious base knockback increase removing much of the combo potential
This is the big change. Combos still exist at a variety of percents since Bowser can ascend so much faster in this game, but often will instead lead to an air dodge chase. Granted, air dodge chasing is much more profitable in this game, but the lack of guarantees on damage hurts this move more than a little bit. The damage increase was a nice consolation boost, I guess.

Dthrow
  • Base damage increase of 14% from 12%.
The damage boost helps this move's viability in keeping the F and B throws unstaled for killing. It will also send them off stage provided you're facing the nearest ledge. If the nearest ledge is behind you, I would recommend just using Bthrow for an edgeguard opportunity.
 
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S_B

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Decided to dump what I know about Bowser's changes. Let me know what I missed.

Bowser Stat Changes
  • Weight increase. Now 135 from 130.
  • Run speed increase of 10% - which is a very average boost for most of the roster.
  • Air speed increase of 15.5% - which is much higher than the average 5% air speed increase for most characters
  • Fall speed increase of 27.34% - effectively no longer a "floaty heavyweight" now that he can fall faster than sheik. This should improve his vertical survivability but also make him even easier to combo vertically.
  • Walk speed increase - though it doesn't matter much given what you can do from a run in this game.
Engine Changes
  • Jumpsquats are now 3 frames universally. Bowser can take off from the ground five frames faster, vastly improving combos and the viability of shorthop aerials.
  • Characters rise to the top of their initial jump height much faster. Further aiding combo starters from the ground. Be sure not to burn your double jump too hastily if you need to reach somewhere high fast.
  • Landing lag drastically reduced on about 98% of aerials. See his aerials for the new numbers
  • Run cancels. You can do any grounded attack out of a run without having to come to a complete stop first. Bowser's grounded moves have insane reach and priority and his run speed is still incredible so he benefits from this more than most.

Jab 1
  • Base Damage: 4% from 5%
  • Endlag increased by 4. Transitions to Jab 2 on frame 10 from 12.
  • Knockback angle changed. Now hit victim toward Bowser if they are too far and away from him if they are too close. Bowser can now jab lock with this move as a result.

Jab followups other than maybe Side B are definitely a thing of the past thanks to the endlag increase and that's a shame. Your best bet is to finish the jab combo, to put them in a disadvantage state or edgeguard situation. As for the knockback angle change, this is technically a global change as almost every character in the game had their Jab 1 changed to this new autolink-esque angle. As well as better jab transitions to ensure victims don't fall out as easily. Being able to jab lock is an exciting set of possibilities completely new to Bowser, though it should be noted that jab locking itself has been changed in Ultimate more for the worse than for the better.

Jab 2
  • Base Damage: 6% from 6.5%

Ftilt

  • Utilt Base Damage 11% from 9%
  • New Knockback based heavy armor on frame 8-10
  • Relevant Engine Change: Character position barriers increased. Now that you can't walk or run inside another player when on the ground, Bowser will no longer F-tilt past an opponent

Of all of Bowser's moves to get a little bit of armor, I find this to be the most exciting. Bowser's Utilt had the disjoint to beat a Cloud Dair with sufficient timing and being able to do this from a run gives him great pressure against landings and sharking platforms.

Dtilt
  • Base Damage 7% and 8% from 14% and 11%
  • Knockback based armor on frame 7-9
  • Second swipe on frame 15 from 20. Total frames unchanged.

I didn't like the damage change at first, but since two swipes connecting almost never happened in Smash 4, the real damage change is 15 from 14. And a larger window to (randomly) cause trips at low percents is a nice bonus too. The second swipe appears to match Smash 4's swipe 1 in kill power as well, maybe even before the 1v1 damage multiplier is applied which is a nice surprise. I wish they put some armor frames in between swipes and toned down the endlag now that the move ends earlier, but otherwise I'm much more optimistic about this move than I was pre-release.

Dash Attack
  • No longer has a weaker late hit.

Nothing significant has changed with this attack. It was a great burst option in the previous game, but now that Bowser's got his full toolset available from a run, I can't see this move competing as much with his tilts. About half of Smash 4's dash attacks got a buff in endlag to compete with their other grounded tools so it's a little bit of a shame to see Bowser's not get one.

Fsmash
  • Knockback based armor on frame 17-19.
Still the old drop kick

Usmash
  • Damage increased. 22% base on shell from 20%. Sourspot hit now 16% from 15. Landing hit now 12% from 6%
  • Knockback based armor on frame 11-13 and 28-31. In other words, three frames before and four frames after invincibility window.
  • Relevant engine change, you can Usmash directly out of shield, no need to jump cancel first.
Dsmash - Completely New Move
  • Now a double swipe on frames 12 and 28 dealing 15 and 16% respectively. 73 FAF.
  • Knockback based armor on 5-11
I haven't played much with this move. It hits ledge hangers, has good range, it will kill, it's laggy. Not much jumps out at me besides that armor window being quite generous. I wish the second swipe also had some armor before it came out. If you want an early kill move out of a run against a grounded opponent, use this instead of the longer windup Fsmash. But if they're already at very high 130+ percent, settle for the F-Tilt instead which will open up less of a punish window if you miss or get blocked.

Nair
  • Landing lag now 15 from 20
Starfish combos look great in Training Mode but this is still an iffy move to fall on people with due to the arm and leg knockback values being wildly different. The combo potential is considerable. N-air to B-air is a fabulous true kill confirm, but you've just gotta hope your attacks hit the opponent right and targets smaller than Mario rarely get hit by the feet hitboxes unless your timing is excellent. And if they do block, hit them with Side B. It will probably work unless they panic dodge roll away.

Fair
  • Landing lag now 14 from 24.
Landing Fair is miles better in this game, and can set up into combos of its own at certain percent windows. Switch between auto cancel timing and landing Fairs in order to stay unpredictable. If your Fairs come out at the same time every time while you space, you open yourself up to being perfect shielded. This move is still best as a spacing tool and its wide radius, range and damage make it a massive threat offstage for edgeguarding.

Bair
  • Landing lag now 24 from 40.
You can still expect to be punished when your landing Bair is blocked, but at least the punish will be something small rather than a smash attack. This move is still insane with its damage and kill power for a 9 startup attack.

Uair
  • Landing lag now 17 from 28.
Landing lag isn't insane, but it will at least set up for its own combos if you manage to get a falling hit.

Dair
  • Landing lag now 35 from 40.
Fire Breath
  • Base Damage increase 1.7% from 1.2%
  • Relevant engine change: All attacks have more hitlag in Smash Ultimate, and that directly improves this move's ability to link into itself.
Still can't reflect gordos, damn. Fire Breath is pretty great. No longer can opponents just hold up and mash jump after a few hits to escape. And the damage increase ups the reward for such a high risk attack. I think this is the first game where Fire Breath can finally serve as part of Bowser's general game plan. Don't forget to blast people recovering if you're too afraid to go offstage for the finisher.

Flying Slam
  • Startup now 6 from 8 on the ground, and 6 from 17 in the air.
  • FAF now 52 from 42 on the ground and 52 from 49 in the air.
  • No longer auto cancels on every frame. If you land during this attack, it will play out the rest of your lag as the grounded version.
Frame 6 air grab should speak for itself - broken. Nobody anticipates being grabbed from the air unless it's a move that's reactable like Ganon or Incineroar, or a grab with very little reward like Wario or Mewtwo, so this move is insane to land with if your opponent thinks they can shield grab some regular aerial. You can Full hop SIde B somebody on a platform near you for a free grab. You can let go of ledge and jump up with Side B to surprise them. You can combo into Side B from aerials if that's your thing. And landing on platforms or on the edge of the stage can still result in some very early vertical kills. Please note that Bowsercide is still bugged and will release victims. Bowsercide should not be attempted unless you're certain they don't have the recovery to make it back, otherwise you will have gained nothing. Bowser survives more punishment than any other character before dying, so you don't want to throw those precious stocks away before you think you got the most out of them.

Whirling Fortress (ground)
  • Final hit base damage increase of 4% to 6%
  • Relevant engine change, you can Up B directly from a shield state. No need to jump cancel first. This is great because timing an Up B during a 3 frame window would be very tricky.
More damage on grounded fortress was actually on my wishlist of Bowser buffs, since I felt like it didn't grant as much reward as it should. It can also kill at much more reasonable percents if they are sent to the nearest horizontal blast zone. But otherwise the move's drawbacks appear to be intact.

Whirling Fortress (air)
  • Total base damage reduced. Now 19% from 35%
  • Hits 12 times total from 11.
  • Hits now connect into the full move, and final hit now launches victim up and away from Bowser.
  • Landing lag now 36 from 50
The damage reduction is drastic, but if you've ever tried using this attack in Smash 4 you knew how bad it was. Victims fell out of it without even making any inputs. Now the move combos into itself and the launching final hit protects Bowser from what would have been a guaranteed punish in Smash 4 if you successfully hit somebody with this move. The move also has respectable disjoint. In Smash 4, we couldn't even reliably trade hits from a late nair from Mario. But now we cut through such short range moves like butter. Edgeguarding Bowser is still very doable, especially with a sword, but not as effortless as it used to be for the average opponent. Hopefully resulting in fewer scenarios where Bowser spends the latter half of his stock getting repeatedly B-aired at the ledge before finally dying. The landing lag reduction also furthers this move's use as an air combo finisher, and makes it more enticing to fly past the ledge directly onto the stage. I should also note Fortress Boosting is still in the game. And from very minor testing I personally believe gaining optimal height is the same wait-before-mashing method as it was in Smash 4 which sucks. I wish we could just mash whenever we want like with Luigi Cyclone.

Bowser Bomb
  • Now a meteor angle on the first hit frame when falling. This also applies to the ground version, though you won't see it unless your initial rising hit connected with an opponent already airborne or DI-ing in a weird way.
Probably the move I played with the least. I don't especially care for the meteor angle since our D-air already does this on its first active hit frames. And I'm worried the grounded version will be techable if the meteor angle connects. Though I am curious if there's a scenario you could bomb to the ledge from onstage and meteor somebody to their doom

Grabs
  • Standing grab startup now 8 from 9. FAF now 41 from 39
  • Dash grab startup now 11 from 10. Total frames now 49 from 48
All grabs have increased endlag in Ultimate compared to last game. Usually increases of around six with the exception of tether grabs. So Bowser got off the hook in this regard.

F and Bthrows (unchanged)

Uthrow
  • Base damage increase. Now 11.5 from 6.5%
  • 7 frames more endlag
  • Collateral hitbox no longer ejects other characters caught in the multihit off to the sides. Now they are simply launched vertically.
  • Obvious base knockback increase removing much of the combo potential
This is the big change. Combos still exist at a variety of percents since Bowser can ascend so much faster in this game, but often will instead lead to an air dodge chase. Granted, air dodge chasing is much more profitable in this game, but the lack of guarantees on damage hurts this move more than a little bit. The damage increase was a nice consolation boost, I guess.

Dthrow
  • Base damage increase of 14% from 12%.
The damage boost helps this move's viability in keeping the F and B throws unstaled for killing. It will also send them off stage provided you're facing the nearest ledge. If the nearest ledge is behind you, I would recommend just using Bthrow for an edgeguard opportunity.
Good list, but I thought fsmash's FAF comes two frames earlier now.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Good list, but I thought fsmash's FAF comes two frames earlier now.
Three frames faster according to this clip from the E3 invitational. But I don't know why that's not the case in the released game. I had a lot of trouble with frame drops and skips while looking for data in demo footage, maybe this is one of those cases.
 

S_B

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I love how FB no longer makes Bowser drift backwards when an opponent is caught in it.

Finally got the time to grind to elite on Bowser and KKR today and I observed that you can jump and FB standing right on the ledge and you no longer slide off if it like in 4.
 
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Kerthorok

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I love how FB no longer makes Bowser drift backwards when an opponent is caught in it.

Finally got the time to grind to elite on Bowser and KKR today and I observed that you can jump and FB standing right on the ledge and you no longer slide off if it like in 4.
I still freak out when I have my back to the ledge during FB because I'm used to being pushed off when doing it in 4 lol.
 

S_B

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I still freak out when I have my back to the ledge during FB because I'm used to being pushed off when doing it in 4 lol.
Tried it today and was pleasantly surprised when Bowser held his ground instead of sliding backwards.

Might be a result of the changes to character presence that gives heavies priority. I wonder if he'd still slide back against another Bowser.

On another note, I've finally started seeing Bowser's super armor kicking in on various attacks.
 
Last edited:

B!squick

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The reason that happened was for our benefit. It was to prevent people from DIing into us and punishing us for using it in the first place. I haven't experimented with it too much, but it seems to deal a ton more damage now, so either it pushes people away more or it just isn't worth it to try to get close anymore.
 
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S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
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Also, there's a buff Yoshi got that I'm jealous of...

Yoshi can hold down during his down+B to pass through platforms instead of landing on them. Considering our down B's do pretty much the same thing, I'd love for Bowser to have that as well.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
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Apr 13, 2014
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Santa Ana, CA
Also, there's a buff Yoshi got that I'm jealous of...

Yoshi can hold down during his down+B to pass through platforms instead of landing on them. Considering our down B's do pretty much the same thing, I'd love for Bowser to have that as well.
I noticed that as well, but it's actually involuntary unless he's been falling enough distance. He cannot choose to land on a platform above him, for instance. If Bowser could choose whether to fall through it'd be nice, but if it were involuntary I'd have to object. I don't want to lose mind game shield breaks when they're on a platform above us. Anyway Yoshi could use a boost since his Down B has always been inferior. The air version doesn't kill, the ground version has no reach on the initial hit. And neither version can bust open shields. All he had going for him is that he begins falling sooner from the air but we can just as fast with our D-air so it doesn't bug me.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
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I noticed that as well, but it's actually involuntary unless he's been falling enough distance. He cannot choose to land on a platform above him, for instance. If Bowser could choose whether to fall through it'd be nice, but if it were involuntary I'd have to object. I don't want to lose mind game shield breaks when they're on a platform above us. Anyway Yoshi could use a boost since his Down B has always been inferior. The air version doesn't kill, the ground version has no reach on the initial hit. And neither version can bust open shields. All he had going for him is that he begins falling sooner from the air but we can just as fast with our D-air so it doesn't bug me.
Ah okay...

I didn't know it was involuntary. I figured you could choose by holding down while descending.
 

Kerthorok

Smash Apprentice
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The reason that happened was for our benefit. It was to prevent people from DIing into us and punishing us for using it in the first place. I haven't experimented with it too much, but it seems to deal a ton more damage now, so either it pushes people away more or it just isn't worth it to try to get close anymore.
It does a ton more damage now. 50% more not including the 1v1 buff to be precise. I was always mad how it was objectively inferior to Charizard's which had more hitstun and better frame data. Now it's much more balanced since it trades superior frame data for massive damage output.
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
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It does a ton more damage now. 50% more not including the 1v1 buff to be precise. I was always mad how it was objectively inferior to Charizard's which had more hitstun and better frame data. Now it's much more balanced since it trades superior frame data for massive damage output.
Yeah, I wish I had saved this replay, but I caught a Lucas player point blank and took him from 0 to 58.

Finally the reward is worth the risk...
 

Ghidorah14

Smash Ace
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Jun 4, 2015
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The new flame breath is wonderful, but I also really like how aerial upB works. So many people try to spike my recovery and they just get wrecked. Plus it tends to send them behind you, i.e. offstage!
 

yung pm

Smash Rookie
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CA
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The new flame breath is wonderful, but I also really like how aerial upB works. So many people try to spike my recovery and they just get wrecked. Plus it tends to send them behind you, i.e. offstage!
pretty sure ive been beaten by some dairs even with it out
 

S_B

Too Drunk to Smash
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pretty sure ive been beaten by some dairs even with it out
This is something that needs testing...

A prerelease video of a match of SSBU showed the startup of aerial fortress beating out Sheik's bouncing fish, but I'm not sure if still has that property...


I could be wrong, but ~1:03 in this video, it sure looks like the startup of fortress gets hit by bouncing fish but outright beats it. This was before the day one patch, mind you.
 

oinKnio

Smash Rookie
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Aug 18, 2018
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Trying to Falcon Punch successfully in doubles
Also, there's a buff Yoshi got that I'm jealous of...

Yoshi can hold down during his down+B to pass through platforms instead of landing on them. Considering our down B's do pretty much the same thing, I'd love for Bowser to have that as well.
Well, Yoshi has a lot of problems that i don't feel bowser has, such as losing matchups to swordies, so let Yoshi have that. Besides, it's like Cloud's Blade Beam: It isn't one of Yoshi's best tools, just something that helps him. I don't see many Yoshis, but those who play him don't use the move often anyway.
 
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