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Ultimate’s Problem

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
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Irene4
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(To clarify, this thread may be closed soon for being a rant thread. It'll be looked into. That said, your text color is almost entirely unreadable with a black background. Could you please change it to a brighter color, like regular white? I know it seems silly to ask, but until we can properly read your thread, as so can others, we can't take action. In fact, the thread might be actually pretty good and make for a great discussion!)
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
33,908
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
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Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Well, once the thread is readable, the moderation can make a decision. Overall, it's important we know what's going on first. Can't take action immediately in many cases. For better or worse.

That said, please don't double post. I'll merge the posts in a bit. You can easily edit your post by clicking the words that say "Edit". :)
 

Oddball

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
1,722
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but you're complaining that people are winning with characters, when you don't think those people deserve to win because they're not good enough.

Yet they are winning.

Because apparently they are good enough to win with the characters they choose.

Now this is the part that gets me. I have no idea how you want to separate players tiers, character tiers, and which players should be allowed to play which characters or what wins shouldn't count because the player isn't good enough or the character tier is too high.

There is no way you can fix that. None. Some people are better with certain characters than others, and it doesn't always follow tiers. Nor can you separate which people should be allowed to fight which other characters. if I fight you with Mario and win, should it count less than I beat you with Jigglypuff? And why? What about the people that want to play as Jigglypuff or whatever else you want to use as an example of a low tier? Should they simply not be allowed to fight others or should people not get points for beating them?

The whole thing kinda takes away the point of choosing what character you actually want to play as.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

Smash Champion
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I doubt that there was a single person in the Smash community that expected Ultimate to be perfectly balanced. Truly balanced competitive games are a pipe dream, and if they exist they would be extremely boring; some early fighting games like Street Fighter I are balanced because both players are limited to the same exact options but that doesn't make the game more fun or interesting.

The fix you suggest for this issue isn't a true solution at all. Sakurai and his team may buff weak characters and nerf powerful ones, but once they are done there is going to be someone at the top and someone at the bottom. It's inevitable.

I feel that the issue you bring of there being characters that are easy to use who "carry" players is merely a copout. People tend to come up with that as an attempt to undermine their opponent's skill and to tell themselves that is not their fault for losing. When you play and lose against an "easy" character using a hard to use character, do you adopt this mentality to excuse your defeat?

If casuals are really cheesing their way into competitive, how come they haven't won any tournaments? People make it that far because they've earned it. You can't seriously watch a tournament final or semi-final and tell to yourself with a straight face that either player cheesed their way there.
 
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Sebas22

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
317
Smash is not a balanced game, because it wasn't created as a competitive fighting game, but a party fighting game. You can definitely set the rules to make the game as competitive as you want and that's fine. But there's always going to be characters that excel against others and no amount of nerfs or buffs will fix the "problem". That's what I think.
 
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JiggyNinja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
275
User was warned for this post. ~Lore

A whole lot of words just to say the same old dumb **** that gets repeated ALL THE TIME in EVERY DAMN GAME!!!

Every noob hates the high tiers because they're so cheap and broken and and the players using them are lazy tier ***** scrubs that don't really have any real skillz and WAH WAH WAH. Seriously. Every scrub in Smash ******* about the high tiers. Every scrub in Pokemon ******* about everyone using the OUs (which literally stands for Overused). It never ends.
It’s like using gun to fight Bruce Lee. You’ll win but who’s the better fighter?
Why would I care about martial arts skill at a gunfight? If the gun is legal, then I'm better for actually using everything the rules allow and the idiot that wants to play fistcuffs can go to a boxing club if he wants to do that **** and stop ruining the game I want to play.
 
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Coolboy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 27, 2018
Messages
382
Location
Netherlands
it's really easy to blame others, hell i had some cheap losses that i get salty and blame the other person too because i am no saint here lol
but a win is a win right?
if using projectile spam (no mindless spam!) with Toon Link works against a certain opponent..then do you think i would stop using it just because it's ''cheap''? (it's not my fault some people still can't deal with it even in the 4 mil range)
or if a spammy B button Zelda works..then why would i stop?
i would use moves as long as they will work..if they do not..well time to try something different!
but if i have to believe your words..i didn't deserve those wins because the other person obviously was better then me because i did not combo them much!
but if they were..then wouldn't they win with ease?
your logic is just silly to me, but i understand the saltyness i really do, because i been there, sometimes i still do
but the difference between you and me is that i never considered changing the whole game cause of a few cheap losses.

but now a silly question..why do people hate Wolf so much? (since hes often used as a example when it comes to being carried by the character kinda thing) i mean yeah he can make you combo food..but it's never been so bad hes unbeatable..my experiences with Wolf is that he can be kinda annoying but that's it ^^''
 
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Lore

Infinite Gravity
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Formerly 'Werekill' and 'NeoTermina'
A whole lot of words just to say the same old dumb **** that gets repeated ALL THE TIME in EVERY DAMN GAME!!!

Every noob hates the high tiers because they're so cheap and broken and and the players using them are lazy tier ***** scrubs that don't really have any real skillz and WAH WAH WAH. Seriously. Every scrub in Smash ******* about the high tiers. Every scrub in Pokemon ******* about everyone using the OUs (which literally stands for Overused). It never ends.

Why would I care about martial arts skill at a gunfight? If the gun is legal, then I'm better for actually using everything the rules allow and the idiot that wants to play fistcuffs can go to a boxing club if he wants to do that **** and stop ruining the game I want to play.
You're using antagonizing language, directly insulting anyone who complains about high tiers, and pretty clearly ranting.

According to your profile, you're 28. Act like it.

Anyone else who responds or acknowledges this post from Jiggy will be infracted. This thread is already on the line of potentially causing heated, inappropriate arguments, and posts like Jiggy's are the type that would cause rough ones.
 
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Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
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Aug 24, 2018
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There are obviously some fighters that take less skill to operate than others due to their easier access to options and attacks in certain matchups. That's just how it works. With the exception of Little Mac, who suffers in every matchup, every fighter has a bit of an edge over another and vice versa. The "top tiers" are the ones that have more advantages than the rest and evidently see the most play. Smash is meant to be a party fighting game and not a competitive scene, that's just how it is.
 

Necro'lic

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
654
As much as it seems this way, easy doesn't mean better. There is always hidden potential in every character, no matter how difficult. A game would have to be pretty horribly balanced to make only the easy characters be better than the not easy ones. What you are probably experiencing is the result of people taking the path of least resistance. Mario may have less potential than a harder character like Mega Man or Shulk, but as long as people, no matter the skill level, get more results from their matches playing easier characters, they will deem the time to master the latter characters not worth their time, because all they are trying to do is win consistently.

This is normal, even in the most balanced of multiplayer games.
 

Oddball

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
1,722
Now let's just suppose you where trying to perfectly balance it.

How?

Balance doesn't just mean character vs character, omega levels, no items.

Some charcters handle platforms better than others, some handle groups better than others. Do you pick the character that's faster so they can run away and grab items or the one that can take damage from the levels hazards better?
 

Necro'lic

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
654
What the developers can try to do is purposefully making harder characters better so players are being rewarded off of higher skilled gameplay. Kind of like in 4 where sheik was pretty hard to use and kill with but once you learned how to work with the character, she could be unstoppable.
You forget that Sheik in Smash 4 was too strong, right? Thus creating a huge imbalance. Intentionally making harder characters overpowered is the exact opposite thing to do if you want a balanced game.
 

Mogisthelioma

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That is true but also better than easier characters like Wolf and Palutena ruling the tier list.
Personally I'd argue that neither of those characters are "easy" to play. They require just as much skill to learn and master as any character. There isn't a skill tree or anything determining how easy or hard a character is to play. Both of those require serious matchup knowledge against the entire cast to help determine the best options in neutral as well as the best follow ups for combos.

I don't think you understand how balancing really works. It's not about intentionally making characters easier or harder to play or making some stronger than others since that would make the game even more imbalanced. The way Smash works is that each character has advantages and disadvantages in all sorts of areas. These are weighed between fighters in matchups and the most skilled player always wins. It's when a fighter has too many advantages and not enough disadvantages that the game becomes "unbalanced." Balancing the game means increasing disadvantages and decreasing advantages to help better the matchups. There's no such thing as "skill points" to measure how easy it is to pick up a fighter, especially since someone might have an easier time learning one fighter than someone else.

Try thinking about it using logic. If two people had mastered every character in the game, and one person chose a fighter that was intentionally designed to be stronger while the other chose a weaker character, then the first player has an unfair advantage over the other thus making the game imbalanced. However, the current balancing logic is to make every fighter as fair as possible so that when two people go toe to toe, the person who is more skilled and has more matchup knowledge will win.

What you're suggesting is balancing the game based on skill by offering a crutch to less experienced players while punishing veteran players for being good and creating a level playing field, whereas in reality the more skilled player is rewarded for their time and effort in learning the game and the less skilled player understands that they need to get better in order to win. Everyone has to work for their reward, nobody is simply carried by their fighter. If you lose someone and you think they cheesed you by picking an easy fighter, guess what? They were simply better than you.

Obviously some characters are simpler than others, which I mentioned in my previous post. Kirby, Mario, or other basic fighters with simple movesets don't require as much skill to pick up and understand the basics than a fighter with a more complicated playstyle like Mega Man or Little Mac. But mastering the fighter and learning each and every mathup requires the same skill for every fighter all around.

So it's not about the fighter you chose. It's about the skill of the player. For the most part I agree that there is some balancing needed in the fighters but not in the way you suggest.
 
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