Ultimate’s Problem

Samurai C

Smash Cadet
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Mar 25, 2019
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57
#1
Now before you read all of this, just know that I’m young, doing this from a phone, and was a smash 4 bayo main (which will become relevant later). I will be talking about the transition from 4 to Ultimate and how this community has changed. There will be some questionable and unpopular opinions but all are supported by decent points. My goal is for people to know that there is a problem revolving smash as a whole. Whether the problem can be fixed is a different story. That power really lays in Sakurai’s hands.

From 64 to Melee or Brawl to Smash 4, we have always been hyped the a new addition to this franchise. This hype is good but has one downside. It can blind us from seeing the truth about things. For instance, we were all hyped about K Rool and Isabelle joining the roster and thought they were both top tiers. When the hype died down, people began to accept facts and the two instantly dropped down the tier list. The same thing can be said about Plant and even Ultimate in some cases. Like how we all thought this was going to be the perfectly balanced game, but after a while we all accepted that the perfectly balanced game doesn’t exist. Now, I want you to take off your hype goggles. Everything I say from now on will actually be meaningful then.

Imagine this. Say each player has skill points and each character costs a certain amount of skill points to play. Say Bob and Joe both have 100 skill points. Bob wants to buy Wolf (30p) and Joe wants to buy Fox (60p). In a perfect game, the two boys could spend their points learning the character and their remaining points would be spent on their own skill, bringing both of their characters to a score of 100. But in the game we’re playing, Wolf would come with a free tier rating making him worth 50p but still only needed 30p to learn. Fox would come with a 10p tier rating making him worth 70p but costing 60p. With the tier ratings, Bob’s Wolf would rank at 120 and Joe’s Fox at 110. And that’s exactly the problem in Ultimate (well that and Bandana Dee not being in the game). Players should not be rewarded for playing easy characters. If anything, the harder characters should come with tier ratings. I know we all hate losing to Palutenas that spam nair and would rather verse the sweatiest sheik players, knowing they worked hard to get where they are (not saying all Palutena players don’t work).

Smash 4 had a similar problem with characters like Mario being able to carry people to the top at 60%, but wasn’t thought about to much because 4’s meta was more patient and skillful. But here in Ultimate, the majority of characters have the ability to throw out attacks without getting punished and is more aggressive. Now the only thing separating skill gaps between players are the characters they use. And that’s an incredibly horrible problem when most easy characters are top tiers.

Now that I’ve explained the problem I think it’s time to share my view on it. As you could probably tell, I hate it. Ever since the release of this game I’ve been beaten by players getting carried by their characters. This would usually be fine if each player still knows who’s better, but the player getting carried starts to think that they are so much better than their opponent and that’s what upsets me. It’s like using gun to fight Bruce Lee. You’ll win but who’s the better fighter? I also feel like casuals are using characters like Kirby, moving to competitive without really being good enough to keep up, and then using another easy-to-pick-up character like Wolf and getting somewhat free wins that way. I’m fine with casuals switching to competitive but can’t stand when they cheese their way up the skill tree by using easy top tiers for no other reason other then they aren’t good enough to use anyone else.

I doubt most people read everything above, but if you did, thank you. I really tried to explain everything as best as possible and tried to get people to see that this problem needs to be fixed. The bad thing is, it’s really out of our power. Unless the developers can make it so the harder characters reign on the tier list, we’ll never stop question where players true skill lays. For now, all we can really do is just acknowledge how a character can effect a players mindset about the others around them and themselves.

If you somehow made it this far, THANK YOU. It really means a lot just knowing that someone read this. I don’t even care about any hate I might get. This had to repeat said. Now the only thing I have to do is find a good place to post this so the last 2 hours weren’t a waste...
 
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Moptimus Prime

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#2
(To clarify, this thread may be closed soon for being a rant thread. It'll be looked into. That said, your text color is almost entirely unreadable with a black background. Could you please change it to a brighter color, like regular white? I know it seems silly to ask, but until we can properly read your thread, as so can others, we can't take action. In fact, the thread might be actually pretty good and make for a great discussion!)
 

Samurai C

Smash Cadet
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Mar 25, 2019
Messages
57
#3
Just noticed in the third paragraph it’s should say 60p instead of 80p :)

Oh sorry about the background! I’m pretty new to this. I also understand if you want to close this thread. It’s original purpose wasn’t to start drama though.
 

Moptimus Prime

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#4
Well, once the thread is readable, the moderation can make a decision. Overall, it's important we know what's going on first. Can't take action immediately in many cases. For better or worse.

That said, please don't double post. I'll merge the posts in a bit. You can easily edit your post by clicking the words that say "Edit". :)
 

Oddball

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
992
#6
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but you're complaining that people are winning with characters, when you don't think those people deserve to win because they're not good enough.

Yet they are winning.

Because apparently they are good enough to win with the characters they choose.

Now this is the part that gets me. I have no idea how you want to separate players tiers, character tiers, and which players should be allowed to play which characters or what wins shouldn't count because the player isn't good enough or the character tier is too high.

There is no way you can fix that. None. Some people are better with certain characters than others, and it doesn't always follow tiers. Nor can you separate which people should be allowed to fight which other characters. if I fight you with Mario and win, should it count less than I beat you with Jigglypuff? And why? What about the people that want to play as Jigglypuff or whatever else you want to use as an example of a low tier? Should they simply not be allowed to fight others or should people not get points for beating them?

The whole thing kinda takes away the point of choosing what character you actually want to play as.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#7
I doubt that there was a single person in the Smash community that expected Ultimate to be perfectly balanced. Truly balanced competitive games are a pipe dream, and if they exist they would be extremely boring; some early fighting games like Street Fighter I are balanced because both players are limited to the same exact options but that doesn't make the game more fun or interesting.

The fix you suggest for this issue isn't a true solution at all. Sakurai and his team may buff weak characters and nerf powerful ones, but once they are done there is going to be someone at the top and someone at the bottom. It's inevitable.

I feel that the issue you bring of there being characters that are easy to use who "carry" players is merely a copout. People tend to come up with that as an attempt to undermine their opponent's skill and to tell themselves that is not their fault for losing. When you play and lose against an "easy" character using a hard to use character, do you adopt this mentality to excuse your defeat?

If casuals are really cheesing their way into competitive, how come they haven't won any tournaments? People make it that far because they've earned it. You can't seriously watch a tournament final or semi-final and tell to yourself with a straight face that either player cheesed their way there.
 
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Samurai C

Smash Cadet
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57
#8
You are correct about the issue I talk about being used as a coping mechanism for losing to opponents. I think we all do it sometimes. But you have to understand that characters can carry and give players reward they didn’t entirely work for. Not saying everyone that uses a certain character does. I have a friend who uses Mario and when I lose to him I don’t blame the characters. I know that he put a good 4 years work into the character and earned the win. If I were on quickplay though, it’s a lot harder to see where my opponents skill lays because I don’t know them. Then I have to look at their playstyle. If he doesn’t know any combos, kill confirms, or kill throws, I can assume that he’s either new to the character, or he just never puts work into the character. If he’s comboing me to oblivion and somehow wave dashing across the stage, I can assume I’m versing Anti and just SD there lol. Now change Mario into Palutena and say you lost against both opponents. You lost to a good opponent due to skill and the other because of the character.

Also when I said casuals where cheesing their way into competitive I didn’t mean into tourneys haha. I started playing competitively in 4. I was a casual Kirby main who wanted to take things a step further. I brought my poyo to glorious and got bodied instantly. After a few months I started to see progress in my skill as a player so I decided to pick up someone new, Bayo. I swear I did it for the recovery and didn’t even look at a tier list before buying lol. And even when I mained Bayo it took me a while to be even considered decent with her. With me using an easy character, and a decently hard one with a big tier rating, it took me about a year to be considered a decent player. Now what if a casual who used Cloud decided to hop on other to competitive? He probably already has a good feel for the character but the tier rating will probably get him places faster than his skill will (until a certain point when the character can no longer carry).

I’m gonna cut this reply here because I only wanted to clear things up and not try to change an opinions of yours. Anyways thanks for reading!

The point was that people are winning, and then getting a false sense of their own skill. And never should a match not count, but the player behind the controller should be the one playing and not the character.
 

Sebas22

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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#9
Smash is not a balanced game, because it wasn't created as a competitive fighting game, but a party fighting game. You can definitely set the rules to make the game as competitive as you want and that's fine. But there's always going to be characters that excel against others and no amount of nerfs or buffs will fix the "problem". That's what I think.
 
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JiggyNinja

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Dec 14, 2018
Messages
275
#10
User was warned for this post. ~Lore

A whole lot of words just to say the same old dumb **** that gets repeated ALL THE TIME in EVERY DAMN GAME!!!

Every noob hates the high tiers because they're so cheap and broken and and the players using them are lazy tier ***** scrubs that don't really have any real skillz and WAH WAH WAH. Seriously. Every scrub in Smash ******* about the high tiers. Every scrub in Pokemon ******* about everyone using the OUs (which literally stands for Overused). It never ends.
It’s like using gun to fight Bruce Lee. You’ll win but who’s the better fighter?
Why would I care about martial arts skill at a gunfight? If the gun is legal, then I'm better for actually using everything the rules allow and the idiot that wants to play fistcuffs can go to a boxing club if he wants to do that **** and stop ruining the game I want to play.
 
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Coolboy

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#11
it's really easy to blame others, hell i had some cheap losses that i get salty and blame the other person too because i am no saint here lol
but a win is a win right?
if using projectile spam (no mindless spam!) with Toon Link works against a certain opponent..then do you think i would stop using it just because it's ''cheap''? (it's not my fault some people still can't deal with it even in the 4 mil range)
or if a spammy B button Zelda works..then why would i stop?
i would use moves as long as they will work..if they do not..well time to try something different!
but if i have to believe your words..i didn't deserve those wins because the other person obviously was better then me because i did not combo them much!
but if they were..then wouldn't they win with ease?
your logic is just silly to me, but i understand the saltyness i really do, because i been there, sometimes i still do
but the difference between you and me is that i never considered changing the whole game cause of a few cheap losses.

but now a silly question..why do people hate Wolf so much? (since hes often used as a example when it comes to being carried by the character kinda thing) i mean yeah he can make you combo food..but it's never been so bad hes unbeatable..my experiences with Wolf is that he can be kinda annoying but that's it ^^''
 
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Lore

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#12
A whole lot of words just to say the same old dumb **** that gets repeated ALL THE TIME in EVERY DAMN GAME!!!

Every noob hates the high tiers because they're so cheap and broken and and the players using them are lazy tier ***** scrubs that don't really have any real skillz and WAH WAH WAH. Seriously. Every scrub in Smash ******* about the high tiers. Every scrub in Pokemon ******* about everyone using the OUs (which literally stands for Overused). It never ends.

Why would I care about martial arts skill at a gunfight? If the gun is legal, then I'm better for actually using everything the rules allow and the idiot that wants to play fistcuffs can go to a boxing club if he wants to do that **** and stop ruining the game I want to play.
You're using antagonizing language, directly insulting anyone who complains about high tiers, and pretty clearly ranting.

According to your profile, you're 28. Act like it.

Anyone else who responds or acknowledges this post from Jiggy will be infracted. This thread is already on the line of potentially causing heated, inappropriate arguments, and posts like Jiggy's are the type that would cause rough ones.
 
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#13
There are obviously some fighters that take less skill to operate than others due to their easier access to options and attacks in certain matchups. That's just how it works. With the exception of Little Mac, who suffers in every matchup, every fighter has a bit of an edge over another and vice versa. The "top tiers" are the ones that have more advantages than the rest and evidently see the most play. Smash is meant to be a party fighting game and not a competitive scene, that's just how it is.
 
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#14
As much as it seems this way, easy doesn't mean better. There is always hidden potential in every character, no matter how difficult. A game would have to be pretty horribly balanced to make only the easy characters be better than the not easy ones. What you are probably experiencing is the result of people taking the path of least resistance. Mario may have less potential than a harder character like Mega Man or Shulk, but as long as people, no matter the skill level, get more results from their matches playing easier characters, they will deem the time to master the latter characters not worth their time, because all they are trying to do is win consistently.

This is normal, even in the most balanced of multiplayer games.
 

Oddball

Smash Ace
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Messages
992
#16
Now let's just suppose you where trying to perfectly balance it.

How?

Balance doesn't just mean character vs character, omega levels, no items.

Some charcters handle platforms better than others, some handle groups better than others. Do you pick the character that's faster so they can run away and grab items or the one that can take damage from the levels hazards better?
 

Samurai C

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
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#17
I think I did say that balancing this game is practically impossible. What the developers can try to do is purposefully making harder characters better so players are being rewarded off of higher skilled gameplay. Kind of like in 4 where sheik was pretty hard to use and kill with but once you learned how to work with the character, she could be unstoppable. Unlike Mario where you rely on a very safe and somewhat predictable playstyle to win. Once you meet a player that can work around that though, there’s not much you can do.

(Maybe that wasn’t the best example but I hope I got my point across)
 
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#18
What the developers can try to do is purposefully making harder characters better so players are being rewarded off of higher skilled gameplay. Kind of like in 4 where sheik was pretty hard to use and kill with but once you learned how to work with the character, she could be unstoppable.
You forget that Sheik in Smash 4 was too strong, right? Thus creating a huge imbalance. Intentionally making harder characters overpowered is the exact opposite thing to do if you want a balanced game.
 
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#20
That is true but also better than easier characters like Wolf and Palutena ruling the tier list.
Personally I'd argue that neither of those characters are "easy" to play. They require just as much skill to learn and master as any character. There isn't a skill tree or anything determining how easy or hard a character is to play. Both of those require serious matchup knowledge against the entire cast to help determine the best options in neutral as well as the best follow ups for combos.

I don't think you understand how balancing really works. It's not about intentionally making characters easier or harder to play or making some stronger than others since that would make the game even more imbalanced. The way Smash works is that each character has advantages and disadvantages in all sorts of areas. These are weighed between fighters in matchups and the most skilled player always wins. It's when a fighter has too many advantages and not enough disadvantages that the game becomes "unbalanced." Balancing the game means increasing disadvantages and decreasing advantages to help better the matchups. There's no such thing as "skill points" to measure how easy it is to pick up a fighter, especially since someone might have an easier time learning one fighter than someone else.

Try thinking about it using logic. If two people had mastered every character in the game, and one person chose a fighter that was intentionally designed to be stronger while the other chose a weaker character, then the first player has an unfair advantage over the other thus making the game imbalanced. However, the current balancing logic is to make every fighter as fair as possible so that when two people go toe to toe, the person who is more skilled and has more matchup knowledge will win.

What you're suggesting is balancing the game based on skill by offering a crutch to less experienced players while punishing veteran players for being good and creating a level playing field, whereas in reality the more skilled player is rewarded for their time and effort in learning the game and the less skilled player understands that they need to get better in order to win. Everyone has to work for their reward, nobody is simply carried by their fighter. If you lose someone and you think they cheesed you by picking an easy fighter, guess what? They were simply better than you.

Obviously some characters are simpler than others, which I mentioned in my previous post. Kirby, Mario, or other basic fighters with simple movesets don't require as much skill to pick up and understand the basics than a fighter with a more complicated playstyle like Mega Man or Little Mac. But mastering the fighter and learning each and every mathup requires the same skill for every fighter all around.

So it's not about the fighter you chose. It's about the skill of the player. For the most part I agree that there is some balancing needed in the fighters but not in the way you suggest.
 
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