Twin Kindergarten Ninjas of Diamond City - Kat & Ana for Smash Ultimate

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#1
250px-KatAna.jpg

Who are Kat & Ana?

Kat & Ana are characters from the WarioWare series. For reference, Kat is the one with purple hair and Ana is the one with orange hair. They attend Diamond City Kindergarten and are one of the many WarioWare Inc. employees. They appeared as Assist Trophies in the previous two Smash games.

How would they fight?
Kat & Ana mainly use swords, hence their names (their names together create Katana, but ironically they are never shown wielding one) but they also use throwing stars and have animal buddies at their sides.

Pros
Has a niche that only one character has
Unique moveset potential
Ashley is out

Cons
Another swordfighter
Other WarioWare reps have more support
May still be an AT

Chances
At first, Kat & Ana stood no chance of getting in. Now, Ashley, the biggest contender to be the new WarioWare character, was confirmed to be an AT once again. In addition, Kat & Ana's AT is nowhere to be found. Though their chances are low when compared to other WarioWare characters like Mona Pizza and 9-Volt, they still have a shot.

Supporters
*DeltaSceptile
*Teeb147
*GoodGrief741
*warelander
*Samcrumpit
*Red Dead Redeemed
*P.Kat
*Saiko18
*Sayaka11
*FoolTheFlames
*Derpy619
*DuckHuntDork
*Dixie Kong
*AngrySun88
*DaemonDD

Media
Signature Icon
kat&ana.png
 
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Teeb147

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#3
Good going, at least we have the thread now <3
Obviously I support them, they been in my sig for a long time.

I don't think they should be made clones of Ice Climbers, BUT they could easily use Ice Climbers' assets to design them easily. They could have a similar mechanic for being duo characters, just with Ninja tools + more (like animals and flowers, etc) instead of Hammers and Ice. I think they should be fast, and their strikes could be quick too but without as much knockback.
Besides potential as fighters, they're super cute and funny, so they'd do well to represent a lighter side :)
 
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#4
I don’t see why not. Despite many obvious candidates, the ninja/samurai archetype remains unrepresented (I don’t really count Greninja).
 

warelander

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#6
These two have always been one of my top picks for another WarioWare pick, alongside 9-Volt and Mona, so you can absolutely count me in as a supporter.
 

Samcrumpit

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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#7
View attachment 157267
Who are Kat & Ana?

Kat & Ana are characters from the WarioWare series. For reference, Kat is the one with purple hair and Ana is the one with orange hair. They attend Diamond City Kindergarten and are one of the many WarioWare Inc. employees. They appeared as Assist Trophies in the previous two Smash games.

How would they fight?
Kat & Ana mainly use swords, hence their names (their names together create Katana, but ironically they are never shown wielding one) but they also use throwing stars and have animal buddies at their sides.

Pros
Has a niche that only one character has
Unique moveset potential

Cons
Another swordfighter

Chances
At first, Kat & Ana stood no chance of getting in. Now, Ashley, the biggest contender to be the new WarioWare character, was confirmed to be an AT once again. In addition, Kat & Ana's AT is nowhere to be found. Though their chances are low when compared to other WarioWare characters like Mona Pizza and 9-Volt, they still have a shot.

Supporters
*DeltaSceptile
*Teeb147
*GoodGrief741

Media
Signature Icon
View attachment 157320
Might as well help the series I'm most invested in rn. Used to be Fire Emblem, but after I burned out on Heroes and Three Houses disappointed, so I'm not at the best terms with it.

Anyway, Kat & Ana would probably be the coolest and logical possible Ware addition now. They have a history with fighting, are really unique and appealing design wise, already had their foot in the door for smash since Brawl, and have seniority within their series. I think they can make for a good climbers echo if they can figure out how to make them parallel their moves better.
 

warelander

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#8
Honestly, I'd be grateful with even their AT coming back, but yeah, with Ashely out of the picture this really is an important time to rally up support for any other Wario rep.

For what it's worth they have had an active role in the series since their Smash debut, before Ashley even, which could indicate that Sakurai and team have at least paid them some mind, one way or another and being able to use the Ice Climbers as a base, could make them potentially easy to add.

The one thing they truly have going against them is a lack of vocal support, but to be honest, the idea of them as Ice Climbers Echos, semi-clones has been thrown around a fair bit, even before Ultimate made it a recognized term, so who knows, I'm sure most at least wouldn't mind their inclusion.
 

Samcrumpit

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#9
Honestly, I'd be grateful with even their AT coming back, but yeah, with Ashely out of the picture this really is an important time to rally up support for any other Wario rep.

For what it's worth they have had an active role in the series since their Smash debut, before Ashley even, which could indicate that Sakurai and team have at least paid them some mind, one way or another and being able to use the Ice Climbers as a base, could make them potentially easy to add.

The one thing they truly have going against them is a lack of vocal support, but to be honest, the idea of them as Ice Climbers Echos, semi-clones has been thrown around a fair bit, even before Ultimate made it a recognized term, so who knows, I'm sure most at least wouldn't mind their inclusion.
How would you go about making some of their moves the same? What would be Katana's version of the frost breath or iceberg? My guess is that they would us ninja smoke instead of frost breath and slide a turtle on the ground for their iceberg.
 
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#10
Honestly, killing people with ninja kindergartners sounds pretty awesome. They could be both a new WarioWare rep, and another WTF pick like ROB, G&W, Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt and Lord knows I love those kind of picks so much. You could definitely count me as a supporter!
 
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warelander

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#11
How would you go about making some of their moves the same? What would be Katana's version of the frost breath or iceberg? My guess is that they would us ninja smoke instead of frost breath and slide a turtle on the ground for their iceberg.
I would imagine that they would borrow another character's Final Smash, possibly Greninja's, since Dark Pit does a similar thing and there isn't much of a way to make Iceberg fit them.

I had a similar thought for Ice Breath and I do like the idea of them using turtles in their version of Ice Shot, though I could also see them go the Chrom route and borrow from another character, like Sheik's Needle Storm.

Honestly, Chrom and the way he's handled gives me some newfound confidence that Kat and Ana as IC Echos can work, it would take a bit of thought, especially since you have to convert hammer based moves into sword ones, but I totally see it being doable.
 

P.Kat

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#12
I definitely support Kat & Ana for Smash, sadly with Ashley out of the running, they are my second pick for a Warioware newcomer (tied with Mona). However, I don't think being another swordfighter really counts as a con. Their low chances when compared to other WarioWare characters is more of con than that..
 

warelander

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#13
I have been thinking of some more pros and cons, let me know if these are agreeable:

+ They have been in Smash before and got an active role before Ashley, which would imply that Sakurai and team have paid them some mind.

+ Ashley is out of the running.

+ They have done actual fighting in their home series and have moveset potential, even if much of it would be taken from their base concept as ninjutsu twins.

+ Their potential to be Ice Climbers Echos or semi-clones could make them a fairly convenient pick to include, while also allowing them to stand out as a very unique example of their kind.

+ Ganondorf started as a Captain Falcon clone, so a character being based off of the moveset of someone from a seperate franchise has happened before and is thus not out of the question.

+ They have been in WarioWare since the start and if you count their stamps in DIY DS, stand out as the only characters besides Wario to appear in every game, a distinction that even Mona, Jimmy or 9-Volt don't have.

+ They have made consistent appearences since their debut, via WarioWare, Rhythm Heaven Megamix, the Badge Arcade, the DSi Paperplane re-release and Smash, with their most recent appearence being WarioWare Gold, a 2018 release, which makes them very recent and relevant characters.

+/- Wario doesn't have any other reps, which could ease fears in regards to potential overrepresentation...unless one were to count all of the Marioverse franchises together, in which case we already got Daisy and King K Rool for Ultimate.

- They lack vocal support from the Smash fanbase, even among other Wario characters Mona, 9-Volt and Captain Syrup tend to have louder supporters, so they would have to rely on interest from the developers' site to get in.

- There's always a chance for their return as an Assist Trophy to be revealed.

- No Wario character has made the same splash as someone like Diddy or K Rool, so it's possible that the big W himself is deemed to be enough, to represent his series.
 
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Saiko18

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#14
I fully support Kat & Ana for Smash Ultimate. They always have been and always will be my favorite WarioWare characters (with Ashley being my second favorite).
 

Teeb147

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#15
I have been thinking of some more pros and cons, let me know if these are agreeable:

+ They have been in Smash before and got an active role before Ashley, which would imply that Sakurai and team have paid them some mind.

+ Ashley is out of the running.

+ They have done actual fighting in their home series and have moveset potential, even if much of it would be taken from their base concept as ninjutsu twins.

+ Their potential to be Ice Climbers Echos or semi-clones could make them a fairly convenient pick to include, while also allowing them to stand out as a very unique example of their kind.

+ Ganondorf started as a Captain Falcon clone, so a character being based off of the moveset of someone from a seperate franchise has happened before and is thus not out of the question.

+ They have been in WarioWare since the start and if you count their stamps in DIY DS, stand out as the only characters besides Wario to appear in every game, a distinction that even Mona, Jimmy or 9-Volt don't have.

+ They have made consistent appearences since their debut, via WarioWare, Rhythm Heaven Megamix, the Badge Arcade, the DSi Paperplane re-release and Smash, with their most recent appearence being WarioWare Gold, a 2018 release, which makes them very recent and relevant characters.

+/- Wario doesn't have any other reps, which could ease fears in regards to potential overrepresentation...unless one were to count all of the Marioverse franchises together, in which case we already got Daisy and King K Rool for Ultimate.

- They lack vocal support from the Smash fanbase, even among other Wario characters Mona, 9-Volt and Captain Syrup tend to have louder supporters, so they would have to rely on interest from the developers' site to get in.

- There's always a chance for their return as an Assist Trophy to be revealed.

- No Wario character has made the same splash as someone like Diddy or K Rool, so it's possible that the big W himself is deemed to be enough, to represent his series.
I'm not sure we need a pro and con list.. I think if you like the character then you can cheer on, but lemme see your points..

#1 - check
#2 - some Ashley fans would tell you she still has a chance for DLC
#3 - It might be a bit easier to design their moves, but I dont think it's a big pro, nintendo's pretty good for inventing movesets too
#4 - check. But I definitely don't think they should be echos, and also we hacen't seen cross-series echos yet. But yes it's a big pro that they can base a lot from ICs.
#5 - Part of the same point as before. We already know they use assets from other characters, like Bayo was made from ZSS. They can change or add as much as time allows. I would hope they change quite a bit and give them a swift fair, rather than the one ICs have, in example.
#6 - check. They're there since the beginning.
#7 - I think this is part of the same point - they're veterans/seniors to the franchise, funnily enough. +relevant

#8 - I don't know what you mean by overrepresentation, I think it counts as its own franchise. Captain Syrup is one that's been talked about for quite a while too, and really is seen from Warioland, not mario.
#9 - True, that's the biggest point against them, but seems like people are still fond of them enough, maybe they'll get more support ;) And maybe they are favored by the devs, who knows.
#10 - I don't think that's con, I don't think being an AT means one way or another, but if anything it means they have at least shoelace in..

And ( for #11) I don't quite get your point, K.Rool is more of a nostalgic pick. I think warioware is a pretty good relevant franchise that's pretty splashy in one sense. I dunno. I'm sure a lot of people see it as a cool franchise of its own and would like to see at least 1 character from it in smash.

You forgot the pro that they're super cute and funny. The biggest con is that they're not talked about as much as other characters, but that could change, who knows :)
 
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warelander

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#16
I'm not sure we need a pro and con list.. I think if you like the character then you can cheer on, but lemme see your points..

#1 - check
#2 - some Ashley fans would tell you she still has a chance for DLC
#3 - It might be a bit easier to design their moves, but I dont think it's a big pro, nintendo's pretty good for inventing movesets too
#4 - check. But I definitely don't think they should be echos, and also we hacen't seen cross-series echos yet. But yes it's a big pro that they can base a lot from ICs.
#5 - Part of the same point as before. We already know they use assets from other characters, like Bayo was made from ZSS. They can change or add as much as time allows. I would hope they change quite a bit and give them a swift fair, rather than the one ICs have, in example.
#6 - check. They're there since the beginning.
#7 - I think this is part of the same point - they're veterans/seniors to the franchise, funnily enough. +relevant

#8 - I don't know what you mean by overrepresentation, I think it counts as its own franchise. Captain Syrup is one that's been talked about for quite a while too, and really is seen from Warioland, not mario.
#9 - True, that's the biggest point against them, but seems like people are still fond of them enough, maybe they'll get more support ;) And maybe they are favored by the devs, who knows.
#10 - I don't think that's con, I don't think being an AT means one way or another, but if anything it means they have at least shoelace in..

And ( for #11) I don't quite get your point, K.Rool is more of a nostalgic pick. I think warioware is a pretty good relevant franchise that's pretty splashy in one sense. I dunno. I'm sure a lot of people see it as a cool franchise of its own and would like to see at least 1 character from it in smash.

You forgot the pro that they're super cute and funny. The biggest con is that they're not talked about as much as other characters, but that could change, who knows :)
With overrepresentation I mean that just in the sense that it wouldn't be an issue since Kat and Ana are purely Wario characters and farther removed from Mario then even K Rool, but some might still take issue with them, due to them being part of the same universe.

That's just me speculating though, I can also fully see people accepting them with open arms.

As for the last point, I mean that in the sense that Diddy and (if to a lesser extend) K Rool are more famous on general scale then any Wario character and that this might lead to the internal mindset that Wario himself is enough to rep his own series, but to be fair, there nothing saying this has to be the case, again, that's really just me speculating.
 

warelander

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#18
I mentioned it in my pros, but I think it also really speaks in Kat and Ana's favor that they have done actual fighting in their home series, as early as the first game:


It took Ashley until WarioWare Gold to be presented in a similar light, which may have played part in not only her exclusion from Ultimate's roster, but also why Kat and Ana got the Assist Trophy spot a whole game earlier.

Sakurai has expressed an aversion to including characters that aren't known for combat in any fashion in the past, it's why we didn't get an Animal Crossing character in Brawl, but I do think that that's a huge edge that Kat and Ana have over the rest of the Ware cast.
 

Teeb147

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#19
It's a good point, though the reason I'm saying it's not that big of a thing is that we also got Rob for brawl, which has nothing to do with fighting.
I think it's a perk, but not too too much.

Since you brought up that game, I actually found an old pro-kat&ana video from 10 years ago (for brawl), and it has some of those fighting scenes:

 

warelander

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#20
It's a good point, though the reason I'm saying it's not that big of a thing is that we also got Rob for brawl, which has nothing to do with fighting.
I think it's a perk, but not too too much.

Since you brought up that game, I actually found an old pro-kat&ana video from 10 years ago (for brawl), and it has some of those fighting scenes:

True, there's also Mr. Game and Watch and the like, but yah know, I like to hope that it might be something that may help them stand out as fighter material in Sakurai's eyes.
 

Derpy619

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#22
They were my principal character that i wanted since SSB4 only after Crash and Rayman, i'd like to support this thread


Interesting fact: When Sakurai release the 4th game (3DS and WiiU), Some AT from the previous game were replaced for another of the same series (Resetti for example) and another were added for the next games, having at least 1 AT per character. However Kat and Ana AT wasn't removed for the fourth game, even with the now huge popularity of Ashley and having only Wario at a fighter of the Warioware series.
I have the Intuition that Kat and Ana were planned as a playable character since SSB4, but due to technical dificulties in the 3DS version (The same case of the absence of Ice Climbers in the previous game), the girls were cut from the playable list, but i think Sakurai didn´t want to remove them for the game, the reason why they remain in the game.

Now with the announcement of the new game, I hope the have a chance to become playable characters in the game (not like an echo of Ice Climbers, but perhaps a similar concept)
 

DeltaSceptile

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#23
They were my principal character that i wanted since SSB4 only after Crash and Rayman, i'd like to support this thread


Interesting fact: When Sakurai release the 4th game (3DS and WiiU), Some AT from the previous game were replaced for another of the same series (Resetti for example) and another were added for the next games, having at least 1 AT per character. However Kat and Ana AT wasn't removed for the fourth game, even with the now huge popularity of Ashley and having only Wario at a fighter of the Warioware series.
I have the Intuition that Kat and Ana were planned as a playable character since SSB4, but due to technical dificulties in the 3DS version (The same case of the absence of Ice Climbers in the previous game), the girls were cut from the playable list, but i think Sakurai didn´t want to remove them for the game, the reason why they remain in the game.

Now with the announcement of the new game, I hope the have a chance to become playable characters in the game (not like an echo of Ice Climbers, but perhaps a similar concept)
I hope your intuition is correct.
 

warelander

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#24
I made a support post for them on my Wario Fan Blog, along with a small plug for this support thread, for good measure.

It's a small thing, but with a follower count of 259 I figured that it might be a good idea, since I am very dedicated to the idea of rallying up support for them, now that people are more likely to turn their eyes to them for a bit, since the most commonly expected second Wario rep is out of the picture.
 

DeltaSceptile

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#25
Other than Kat & Ana, there are only a few notable ATs missing so far:
-Shadow; who is probably the most likely one to make the promotion
-Isabelle; similar to Shadow, no doubt they're both in as echoes
-Dillon; could be a nice rep for a smaller series.
-Phosphora; either she was cut, or she is waiting for the final massacre.
-Elec Man; same as Phosphora.
-Isaac; he was once one of the most wanted (brawl speculation days), so it makes sense, because he's probably in
-Skull Kid; It's do or die time for both him and Isaac, so i find them both to be very plausible at this point.
So yeah, Kat & Ana are among 8 who could potentially get promoted (or just disappear altogether). And out of them, I'd say they are #5 in terms of likely-hood, only falling short of the 4 everyone expects to happen.
 

FooltheFlames

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#28
As a WarioWare fan, I'd like to add my support for them here.
But if I'm being honest with you guys, it's going to really burn me if they're playable while Ashley still is not. It wouldn't be their fault of course, I'd still play as them often; it would just be really darn confounding to everyone, Ashley fan or not.
 
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Samcrumpit

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#29

I think we can all agree that a Four Seasons remix would be a must, if the ninja twins make it into the roster.
It's a nice track, definitely caught me off guard when I played Microgames Inc. I think it would be better and more fitting in Smash if they just sped up the tempo and made it more catchy. A disco remix would be what I would go for.

While we're talking about music, it's a shame that Split Screen's music probably won't make it in the game. It's definitely my favorite piece of Katana related music and goes perfectly with fighting in my mind.
 

Teeb147

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#30
Hopefully Sakurai & his team will pick them, even if only as a heavily modified ice climber clone.
yup, the dream.

Maybe nintendo went ham with the echo stuff and realized they could add a lot more characters with that and cloning. I used to think there'd be not a lot of fighters, but now I'm more optimistic on that side, I think we'll have a good amount of new characters. May just be around 5 more, or it may be more.

Warioware, nintendo.
 
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#33
If these two made the cut, what tier would they be? I could see them being mid to high tier, because you know, speed, speed, and more speed. That’s all it took for fox to be the best in melee (aside from some bs tactics, but let’s not get into that).
 
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#34
If speed ends up as important here, as it was in Melee's meta then yeah, I can see them doing well cometetively, since they pretty much have to be fast characters, Mega Party Games even provides a gameplay example of it.

Not sure what Tier they would be though, I'll leave that one to the more competetive savy ones to decide.
 
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#35
Fast characters usually do good, but it's waaay to premature to talk about tiers lol. What if it's easy to hit the twin after you hit someone (like if they'd give them so little knockback that they could be hit even if they get in and out fast)? There's tons of ways to design them, but considering their AT in past games, I'd say it's safe to say they'd be fast and so at least mid-tier :p

If they do show up in smash, I'll probably main them :)
 
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#38
Indeed, it's really nice to see support for them already build up a bit.

Also, I should stress that while I do push the idea of them as IC Echos, I'd obviously love nothing more then for them to get in with their own moveset, since they have plenty going for them. I'm just placing a lot of hopes into the Echo concept, since many characters have already gotten into Smash via convenience and I would be okay with them as the next example.

I think a lot of it comes down to whether or not Sakurai and team are eying Wario for another rep who could bring something interesting to the table and due to the 3DS's limitations keeping the Ice Climbers out, they were pretty much hopeless for that game, which makes the absence of their Assist Trophy (so far) here all the more interesting, even if it is really daring to suspect something so specific and big.

Admitingly I also hope that the merge of Nintendo SPD1 (the remains of R&D1, who created Wario and both of his series) and Nintendo EAD (responsible for Super Mario, Mario Kart, Zelda...) into Nintendo EPD might make Wario's supporting cast a more attractive option for newcomers in Sakurai's eyes, because they are under a major umbrella now, even if Intelligent Systems still co-develops the WarioWare titles.
 
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#39
Indeed, it's really nice to see support for them already build up a bit.

Also, I should stress that while I do push the idea of them as IC Echos, I'd obviously love nothing more then for them to get in with their own moveset, since they have plenty going for them. I'm just placing a lot of hopes into the Echo concept, since many characters have already gotten into Smash via convenience and I would be okay with them as the next example.

I think a lot of it comes down to whether or not Sakurai and team are eying Wario for another rep who could bring something interesting to the table and due to the 3DS's limitations keeping the Ice Climbers out, they were pretty much hopeless for that game, which makes the absence of their Assist Trophy (so far) here all the more interesting, even if it is really daring to suspect something so specific and big.

Admitingly I also hope that the merge of Nintendo SPD1 (the remains of R&D1, who created Wario and both of his series) and Nintendo EAD (responsible for Super Mario, Mario Kart, Zelda...) into Nintendo EPD might make Wario's supporting cast a more attractive option for newcomers in Sakurai's eyes, because they are under a major umbrella now, even if Intelligent Systems still co-develops the WarioWare titles.
Yeah. Their AT being gone is a bit perplexing, especially considering Ashley is an AT once again. Maybe something big is planned for our little Kindergarten ninjas.
 
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#40
Yeah. Their AT being gone is a bit perplexing, especially considering Ashley is an AT once again. Maybe something big is planned for our little Kindergarten ninjas.
The timing in particular makes it interesting. The 3DS's inablity to handle proper duo characters makes Ultimate the first proper shot that they have ever had for a roster spot in Smash and it's only now that their Assist Trophy has seemingly gone MIA.

Of course there's always a chance for their AT to be revealed, Ashley fans got a bitter taste of that, but it's not over until it's over. Admitingly I am banking on their presence in Brawl as a sign that Sakurai has some interest in them, especially since some ATs really feel like a compromise for characters that could have been on the roster, but missed out for one reason or another (Isaac, for instance).

Of course Kat and Ana getting in, while Ashley remains an assist is pretty much the complete opposite of what everyone expected, but it has happened before when another character ended up being the more unique/convenient inclusion then the heavily requested one, it's why Chrom sat out For, while Robin and Lucina made it onto the roster, even though everyone was expecting Chrom to be the FE Awakening rep.

Granted, percieved patterns seen by the fandom are often shut down, but my point is more that it's not as impossible for a lesser requested character to make the cut then some make it out to be.
 
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