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True spikes vs Meteors.

Nakamaru

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I'm just going to come out and say it. Spikes should not exist in P:M because there is no reason why they can't be changed to meteors instead. Spikes do not promote counter play other than "just don't get into that situation". The only thing a player can try to do is smash DI the spike and tech it, and only if they are next to/near the stage. That is also only if you are at a high enough percent to be allowed to tech. Where meteors allow the victim (for lack of a better word) a small chance to fight back. Rather than giving a few members of the cast an unnecessary mechanic that no one likes and everyone rages about.

There are only two moves I can think of that really can't be changed without really affecting the character they belong to. Those are Fox's shine (which is more of a pseudo spike) and Ganon's Wizard's foot. Falco's Dair, Marth's Dair, Wario's Dair (Im not 100% on this. But I have tried to meteor cancel it many times trying different timings to no avail.), Etc all can be changed to meteors without really affecting the characters too much.

I really would like a discussion on this, and maybe get some of the PMBR members to post their thoughts on the matter. As well as the rest of the community.
 

DMG

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Spikes are OK, usually the moves come with a lot of cooldown. Falco Dair is the only move people are probably looking at because of how long it is active.
 

Nakamaru

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Marth's dair has a lot of cooldown on the end of the move. But it still covers so much of the ledge that if you hit it (which is pretty damn easy with it's large arc) it doesn't matter how much cooldown it has. It still hit and the other person can have as much CD as link's dair and it won't matter. Even with it's long CD you can still combo characters off of the sour spot when ledge hopping it.

Having a long CD doesn't make spikes OK. It just means that they might be punished if they use it in the wrong situation.
 

Rikana

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So what you're saying is that we shouldn't allow players to be rewarded a kill for successfully knocking an opponent off the stage? The offender can potentially be screwed over for landing a meteor if its too early into the stock due to meteor canceling too. I don't understand why we need to make it any easier for people to recover back on stage when its already much more lenient than melee. I don't concur with this sentiment at all. I think spikes are perfectly fine.

Also, they're spikes because they are not within the range of a meteor. The trajectory of meteors tend to send the opponent vertically lower than spikes. Changing spikes to meteor cancel can affect many different attacks.
 

regal68

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I think there are more spikes but I'm not positive. Concerning Falco's dair, I agree. There has been much talk of nerfing spacies to PAL levels and that would be included. Falco by no means deserves free ass kills at 20%. Marth, on the other hand, I do not at all agree with. "It still covers so much of the ledge...its pretty damn easy to hit with" are you serious? Marth's dtilt and shield breaker cover more of the edge than dair. If you are getting hit by dair on the ledge, you need to go into practice mode and work on sweet-spotting, a lot. Link me some vids of M2K/whoever edgeguarding with dair.

Marth has enough trouble killing and you can DI out of most combos ending in dair. Not only can you DI out of it but it, like all of marths moves, is only active for a short while and requires precise timing and spacing.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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I'm just going to come out and say it. Spikes should not exist in P:M because no one likes and everyone rages about.

There are only two moves I can think of that really can't be changed without really affecting the character they belong to. Those are Fox's shine (which is more of a pseudo spike) and Ganon's Wizard's foot. Falco's Dair, Marth's Dair, Wario's Dair (Im not 100% on this. But I have tried to meteor cancel it many times trying different timings to no avail.), Etc all can be changed to meteors without really affecting the characters too much.
First off, uMAD

Secondly, if you are failing to meteor cancel those moves, you are simply doing it wrong. Also, as stated before, marths dair takes correct spacing and timing if you want to spike a person. It's not hurhurderp dair, autowin and then spam tech cause ez. Wario's dair, I can't say much for, aside from the fact that, if he misses it off stage he's as good as dead. The only thing you have that's worth looking into is falco's dair, but, seeing how this game was MADE to REMAKE melee falco, lolyeright.
 

DMG

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Wario is a meteor, not a spike. Same for Wolf's Dair, Ike's Dair, and quite a few others. There aren't many true spikes in the game
 

prisoner

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ahh, I agree with OP... spikes aren't a problem in a vacuum, but the characters that got them already had great movesets to begin with. you might say it's difficult to KO with these moves, but... well, at least in the case of Marth and Falco, I see lots of spike kills from these two characters because there's no wind-up time on the attack. long cool-down isn't really an issue after some practice with these moves.

why exactly do characters like Marth and Falco get very quick, uncancellable spikes? how does this contribute to balance for the character and balance for the cast?

most characters with meteors have long wind-up and cool-down... yet these moves are given a 2nd weakness because the opponent can cancel.

I'm not necessarily saying a change has to happen, but it becomes hard to reconcile the idea of balance with power moves like this in play. surely you can see that.
 

1MachGO

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I hate to make call outs, but anyone who says spikes>meteors are most likely new to the game.

Please read:

Spikes>Meteors (killing move)

Spikes and meteors are functionally similar in that they hit people downward. However, spikes have the added benefits of faster start up, angled trajectory, and an immunity to meteor cancelling. This makes them more effective for ending combos and outright killing the opponent.

Meteors>Spikes (comboing move)

As you know, when using a meteor or spike to hit grounded opponents, it bounces them up. The knockback of this bounce is 20% less than an airborne equivalent but hitstun goes unchanged. This is why combos such as stomp>knee are so reliable. However, another reason why stomp>knee is so good is because falcon is hitting with a meteor. As stated before, spikes are angled, and this distinction also applies to grounded hits. Spikes will bounce opponents at an angled trajectory making them easier for the opponent to DI and harder for the player follow up on. Meteor trajectories, on the other hand, can be practically inescapable no matter which way you DI.

Taking this into account, there is no way Falcon would want spike hitboxes on the rest of his dair because stomp>knee is really just as deadly (if not more deadly) than a ken combo.

However, the last issue of the anti-spike argument which really irks me is...

Meteor cancelling is dumb

OMG. DI is genius but Melee meteor cancelling is dumb and is only a few chapters before "Brawl Tripping" in the book: Poorly Executed Game Mechanics. I love when the blame is directed at spikes for being bad when Melee meteor cancelling is the sole reason no one goes for offstage meteors in Melee. Iirc, you only needed to wait 6 frames to meteor cancel, effectively making meteors a non-option save for a mix up or vs. an inexperienced opponent. IMO, the Spike vs. Meteor issue was solved the instant the P:MBR nerfed meteor cancelling. Meteors are effective as kill moves at higher percents.
 

DMG

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The nerf to meteor cancelling in PM was not intentional iirc. I think they were having issues coding it to be exactly like Melee. Either the penalty for messing up, or how soon you could do it.
 

Nakamaru

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So what you're saying is that we shouldn't allow players to be rewarded a kill for successfully knocking an opponent off the stage? The offender can potentially be screwed over for landing a meteor if its too early into the stock due to meteor canceling too.
That isn't what I am saying at all. I mean they shouldn't be rewarded with a free kill at any %.

Also, they're spikes because they are not within the range of a meteor.
What does this even mean?

The trajectory of meteors tend to send the opponent vertically lower than spikes. Changing spikes to meteor cancel can affect many different attacks.
They all send straight down to be precise, and of course it will affect the properties of the attack. That doesn't mean that it will have a negative effect on the character so much so that they are all of a sudden awful.

Marth, on the other hand, I do not at all agree with. "It still covers so much of the ledge...its pretty damn easy to hit with" are you serious? Marth's dtilt and shield breaker cover more of the edge than dair. If you are getting hit by dair on the ledge, you need to go into practice mode and work on sweet-spotting, a lot. Link me some vids of M2K/whoever edgeguarding with dair.
Yes, I am serious. Sweet spotting does absolutely nothing to prevent you from being hit with his Dair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7tMO0bo1HnY#t=25
Watch carefully when Isai loses his stock. Marth's Dair covers very far below the ledge, and gives falcon no option to even smash DI and tech. If you need other examples of marth edgeguarding with dair you need to watch more matches. M2K uses it quite a lot actually.

Secondly, if you are failing to meteor cancel those moves, you are simply doing it wrong. Also, as stated before, marths dair takes correct spacing and timing if you want to spike a person. It's not hurhurderp dair, autowin and then spam tech cause ez. The only thing you have that's worth looking into is falco's dair, but, seeing how this game was MADE to REMAKE melee falco, lolyeright.
That is a given. I'm looking for an actual discussion on this. Not "herp derp Umadbro?" BS that you are spewing. If you have something constructive to post please I would like to hear your thoughts on it. If not then don't clutter this thread with your mindless dribble.

Wario is a meteor, not a spike. Same for Wolf's Dair, Ike's Dair, and quite a few others. There aren't many true spikes in the game
That is good to know. But that doesn't give any insight to the conscious decision to keep actual true spikes in the game. What are all of the spikes?

I hate to make call outs, but anyone who says spikes>meteors are most likely new to the game.
How long have you been playing smash?

Meteors>Spikes (comboing move)

As you know, when using a meteor or spike to hit grounded opponents, it bounces them up. The knockback of this bounce is 20% less than an airborne equivalent but hitstun goes unchanged. This is why combos such as stomp>knee are so reliable. However, another reason why stomp>knee is so good is because falcon is hitting with a meteor. As stated before, spikes are angled, and this distinction also applies to grounded hits. Spikes will bounce opponents at an angled trajectory making them easier for the opponent to DI and harder for the player follow up on. Meteor trajectories, on the other hand, can be practically inescapable no matter which way you DI.
The reason stomp > knee is so effective is because of falcon's speed and ability to follow up off of hits. It is still possible to DI a meteor so you don't get sent straight up.

Taking this into account, there is no way Falcon would want spike hitboxes on the rest of his dair because stomp>knee is really just as deadly (if not more deadly) than a ken combo.
This is incredibly untrue. Any falcon main would LOVE to have more spike hitboxes. If hitting his nipple spike was much easier I guarantee every falcon would be using Dair off stage a lot more.

Meteor cancelling is dumb

OMG. DI is genius but Melee meteor cancelling is dumb and is only a few chapters before "Brawl Tripping" in the book: Poorly Executed Game Mechanics. I love when the blame is directed at spikes for being bad when Melee meteor cancelling is the sole reason no one goes for offstage meteors in Melee. Iirc, you only needed to wait 6 frames to meteor cancel, effectively making meteors a non-option save for a mix up or vs. an inexperienced opponent. IMO, the Spike vs. Meteor issue was solved the instant the P:MBR nerfed meteor cancelling. Meteorsare effective as kill moves at higher percents.
Players don't go offstage for meteors because it is a bad option. They are still used quite extensively at the ledge in melee. This is because they retain the ability to follow up if the opponent meteors.
Please go watch more videos and you will see meteors are used even in competitive play.

And how was this issue solved with PMBR nerfing meteor canceling?
 

the_suicide_fox

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I think that for Falco at least, it should stay as a spike. Yes it is a very effective killing move but it's also a key component to his ability to combo on the stage. It might destroy some of his combos if you could meteor cancel it. He is still really good otherwise, so maybe just adjust the duration or something. Like the first frame it hits should be the strongest and send you flying down the fastest, but as the move continues it loses it's strength and becomes a weaker spike. So getting hit by it at the tail end wouldn't spike as hard giving the opponent a chance to DI and tech it, and encouraging Falco's to use it with proper timing.
 

Nakamaru

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Agreed. It could be changed to its PAL version which many have agreed is far more balanced than NTSC. First half of the move hits normally, and the 2nd half sends horizontally. But i dont really feel like his spike being a meteor would hurt him much more than inability to secure kills at low %'s.
 

Kaye Cruiser

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Can I just say that I have absolutely no idea what the difference between the two is and have never been able to ascertain it? ¦D;
 

JOE!

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Can I just say that I have absolutely no idea what the difference between the two is and have never been able to ascertain it? ¦D;
A spike sends at a not-vertical angle and cannot be jumped out of. A Meteor sends at a completely vertical angle and can be jumped out of.
 

Rarik

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With regards to the Isai vs Ken video, Isai got punished there for 2 reasons, 1.) Getting greedy and going for a 3rd knee in that combo when it would've been a better choice to go back to the ledge and try for a ledgehog. I may be wrong but I'm like 60% sure that would've worked. At worst for isai, had he done that, ken would've gotten back on stage but been in a generally bad position. 2.) If the 2nd knee wasn't a weak knee ken would've been guaranteed dead. I don't play falcon enough to know if a strong knee was possible there, but it definitely would've killed.

Oh and I'm pretty sure Isai was dead regardless of the spike anyways, again, don't paly falcon a ton so if a falcon main could confirm that would be awesome, but I don't think the spike was even necessary for Ken to get the kill there.
 

Kaye Cruiser

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A spike sends at a not-vertical angle and cannot be jumped out of. A Meteor sends at a completely vertical angle and can be jumped out of.
Thanks Joe. Hopefully I can spot the difference enough when playing now. :3
 

1MachGO

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How long have you been playing smash?
Idk, I played it when the game came out and got into ATs around 5 or so years ago. I never partook in forums until P:M went to smashmods and made an account here when they moved.

The reason stomp > knee is so effective is because of falcon's speed and ability to follow up off of hits. It is still possible to DI a meteor so you don't get sent straight up.
No. Hitstun and Knockback values are somewhat linked. Essentially, higher knockback= higher histstun. However, meteor's and spike's vs grounded opponents have the interesting property of reducing knockback by 20% without changing hitstun. This means that hitstun is disproportionately higher for meteor/spike bounces than most attacks making follow ups extremely easy. This doesn't just help Falcon, it helps Mario, Yoshi, Peach, Samus, etc.

And I never said it was impossible to DI meteors. However, DI'ing a perfectly vertical trajectory with copious amounts of hitstun makes follow ups on reaction very easy.

This is incredibly untrue. Any falcon main would LOVE to have more spike hitboxes. If hitting his nipple spike was much easier I guarantee every falcon would be using Dair off stage a lot more.
So Falcon mains would like to weaken one of their onstage options to have another offstage finisher? Knee and uair are faster and already extremely effective so I can't see how a spike trajectory on the rest of his dair would benefit him more than his current toolset already does.

Players don't go offstage for meteors because it is a bad option. They are still used quite extensively at the ledge in melee. This is because they retain the ability to follow up if the opponent meteors.
Please go watch more videos and you will see meteors are used even in competitive play.
This is extremely situation dependent and I can't think of any notable instances where a tactic like this is used and one wouldn't be better. Ganon, maybe, because his dair is so strong... but against Marth or a character with a fast Up-b he could easily put himself at frame disadvantage because melee meteor cancelling can be done in 6 frames (1/10th of a second). Assuming you hit with the last frame possible using Ganon/Falcon's dair, you would still have 18 frames before you could do anything else. This gives you a pretty high likelihood that you'll be hit by a recovering opponent. It most cases, its probably safer, faster, and more reliable to use something else from the ledge.

And how was this issue solved with PMBR nerfing meteor canceling?
The time until the earliest meteor cancel in melee was 6 frames iirc. For a frame of reference this is approximately 1/10th of a second. P:M has, at the very least, doubled the amount of frames until the earliest cancel. This makes meteor smashes a viable offstage finisher at higher percents whereas Melee made them useless at almost every percent.
 

Nakamaru

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With regards to the Isai vs Ken video, Isai got punished there for 2 reasons, 1.) Getting greedy and going for a 3rd knee in that combo when it would've been a better choice to go back to the ledge and try for a ledgehog. I may be wrong but I'm like 60% sure that would've worked. At worst for isai, had he done that, ken would've gotten back on stage but been in a generally bad position. 2.) If the 2nd knee wasn't a weak knee ken would've been guaranteed dead. I don't play falcon enough to know if a strong knee was possible there, but it definitely would've killed.

Oh and I'm pretty sure Isai was dead regardless of the spike anyways, again, don't paly falcon a ton so if a falcon main could confirm that would be awesome, but I don't think the spike was even necessary for Ken to get the kill there.
The video wasn't referenced for the kill. It was referenced to show how much space Marth's Dair covers on the ledge.

Also as a falcon main, Marth's dair can kill falcon at as little as 10%.
 

Nakamaru

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1MachGO
-I would like to debate with you, but I can't seem to find out what the hell your argument for spikes is other than meteors have 20% more knock back. Which somehow makes them unfair.
 

Xinc

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I'd like to say that Meteors are arguably just as dangerous as it is difficult to cancel the Meteor. Spikes tend to have a longer cooldown, as seen in Ness' Dair, Marth's, Falco's, and Ganon's (Falco's is the least slow, right?) which is a red flag to say if it misses, there's a penalty. Sounds fair to me.
 

DrinkingFood

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I'd like to say that Meteors are arguably just as dangerous as it is difficult to cancel the Meteor. Spikes tend to have a longer cooldown, as seen in Ness' Dair, Marth's, Falco's, and Ganon's (Falco's is the least slow, right?) which is a red flag to say if it misses, there's a penalty. Sounds fair to me.
Both Ness and ganon have meteors, not spikes
 

regal68

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Wario is a meteor, not a spike. Same for Wolf's Dair, Ike's Dair, and quite a few others. There aren't many true spikes in the game

Unless its been changed, Ike's dair has a spike hitbox, as well as DK and Snake's Fair. Unrelated topic but Snakes fair is ****ing stupid lol. It either spikes or kills horizontally; it is neigh impossible to sour spot it lol.


That isn't what I am saying at all. I mean they shouldn't be rewarded with a free kill at any %.

Yes, I am serious. Sweet spotting does absolutely nothing to prevent you from being hit with his Dair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7tMO0bo1HnY#t=25
Watch carefully when Isai loses his stock. Marth's Dair covers very far below the ledge, and gives falcon no option to even smash DI and tech. If you need other examples of marth edgeguarding with dair you need to watch more matches. M2K uses it quite a lot actually.
What even. If you at all claim to be a falcon main you should know falcon cannot physically sweetspot in Melee. Marth could have fsmashed or ftilted or dtilted or jabbed or dmsashed or shield breakered etc etc. And no, M2K does not dair the edge quite a lot because it can easily be punished from the ledge. He might dair while HE is on the ledge. Now if you are getting daired by a marth in PM you need to work on your sweet spot because it is infinitely easier to do. Upload some videos and ask for help.

If you are solely talking about dair covering the edge when it is ledgehopped, OF COURSE IT DOES lol. Literally every single move that is ledgehopped often covers the edge completely (aka every nair/bair from top tiers). If you are dying at low percent to marths dair, you deserve it because you went off stage. If you are talking about at higher percents where you were actually hit off stage and edgeguarded, you need to recover better or choose a character with better recovery lol.

I think that for Falco at least, it should stay as a spike. Yes it is a very effective killing move but it's also a key component to his ability to combo on the stage. It might destroy some of his combos if you could meteor cancel it. He is still really good otherwise, so maybe just adjust the duration or something. Like the first frame it hits should be the strongest and send you flying down the fastest, but as the move continues it loses it's strength and becomes a weaker spike. So getting hit by it at the tail end wouldn't spike as hard giving the opponent a chance to DI and tech it, and encouraging Falco's to use it with proper timing.
This argument needs to stop happening. If you do not actually know if "it might destroy some of his combos" do not cite it as a reason lol. And destroying some combos of the best character in the game with easily the most guaranteed combos in the game might not be a bad thing. If properly implemented and assuming meteor cancelling is not fixed in PM, making falco's dair a meteor would likely not change much. It would prevent free ass dair kills at percents lower than 30ish and it would probably allow some possibility of escape, at least at early percents.

I'd like to say that Meteors are arguably just as dangerous as it is difficult to cancel the Meteor. Spikes tend to have a longer cooldown, as seen in Ness' Dair, Marth's, Falco's, and Ganon's (Falco's is the least slow, right?) which is a red flag to say if it misses, there's a penalty. Sounds fair to me.

I have no idea where you or anywhere else is getting the idea that spikes have a longer cool down. Falco's dair has extremely low cooldown when l cancelled. Maybe you mean it is out for a long time? As pointed out half of your examples are not true spikes. The only spikes in melee were marth, falco, and wizards foot I believe. That list was extended to include DK/Snake fair, Lucas' bair, Ike dair, and maybe a few others in PM. Literally all of these can be safe on shield and have low cool down compared to Gannon dair, DK dair, and some other meteors.
 

Tugnus

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What a dumb topic. Someone obviously gets gimped a lot. The OP makes it seems like all spikes are completely unavoidable if offstage and are free kills at any %. LOL! Maybe you should just learn how to recover, especially in PM where it is so easy.

Also, I am willing to bet anything that he hasn't seen a single PAL Marth video and how terrible that PAL Marth Meteor is (And how often its cancelled because it is so easy to see coming).

Seriously, why do so many people have trouble Meteor cancelling?

Spikes do not promote counter play other than "just don't get into that situation".
This made me laugh. Go play Brawl.

That is also only if you are at a high enough percent to be allowed to tech.
This made me laugh even harder.

There are only two moves I can think of that really can't be changed without really affecting the character they belong to. Those are Fox's shine (which is more of a pseudo spike) and Ganon's Wizard's foot.
Oh god my stomach is starting to hurt!
 

Lethalx

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What a dumb topic. Someone obviously gets gimped a lot. The OP makes it seems like all spikes are completely unavoidable if offstage and are free kills at any %. LOL! Maybe you should just learn how to recover, especially in PM where it is so easy.

Also, I am willing to bet anything that he hasn't seen a single PAL Marth video and how terrible that PAL Marth Meteor is (And how often its cancelled because it is so easy to see coming).

Seriously, why do so many people have trouble Meteor cancelling?



This made me laugh. Go play Brawl.



This made me laugh even harder.



Oh god my stomach is starting to hurt!
LOLOLOL^ and also this is just as dumb as the balance L- cancel thread
 

the_suicide_fox

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This argument needs to stop happening. If you do not actually know if "it might destroy some of his combos" do not cite it as a reason lol. And destroying some combos of the best character in the game with easily the most guaranteed combos in the game might not be a bad thing. If properly implemented and assuming meteor cancelling is not fixed in PM, making falco's dair a meteor would likely not change much. It would prevent free *** dair kills at percents lower than 30ish and it would probably allow some possibility of escape, at least at early percents.

So it's okay for you to cite reasons that you do not know would be true but not me? Sure. Whatever.

If people could meteor cancel Falco's d-air then they could avoid a lot of his combos. The moment he shines you into the air and jumps you can be pretty sure he will d-air so you mash jump and poof, you just got yourself out of the combo. Not to mention, one of his best killing moves would be badly nerfed, leaving him with only f-smash and b-air really. Falco takes a risk every time he jumps off the stage to spike you because his recovery sucks. If you avoid the d-air he just put himself in a very bad spot.

And it's not like you still can't tech it. I've seen people tech Falco's spike in Melee many times, it's made especially easy because it's predictable. Counter pick a stage with big ledges and you can tech it all day.
 

Tugnus

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So it's okay for you to cite reasons that you do not know would be true but not me? Sure. Whatever.

If people could meteor cancel Falco's d-air then they could avoid a lot of his combos. The moment he shines you into the air and jumps you can be pretty sure he will d-air so you mash jump and poof, you just got yourself out of the combo. Not to mention, one of his best killing moves would be badly nerfed, leaving him with only f-smash and b-air really. Falco takes a risk every time he jumps off the stage to spike you because his recovery sucks. If you avoid the d-air he just put himself in a very bad spot.

And it's not like you still can't tech it. I've seen people tech Falco's spike in Melee many times, it's made especially easy because it's predictable. Counter pick a stage with big ledges and you can tech it all day.
Could you imagine if Falco's dair was a meteor... Every time you try to pillar combo, you get DJ nair'd/fair'd/anything because meteor cancels during any combo would be LULZ!
 

regal68

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So it's okay for you to cite reasons that you do not know would be true but not me? Sure. Whatever.

If people could meteor cancel Falco's d-air then they could avoid a lot of his combos. The moment he shines you into the air and jumps you can be pretty sure he will d-air so you mash jump and poof, you just got yourself out of the combo. Not to mention, one of his best killing moves would be badly nerfed, leaving him with only f-smash and b-air really. Falco takes a risk every time he jumps off the stage to spike you because his recovery sucks. If you avoid the d-air he just put himself in a very bad spot.

And it's not like you still can't tech it. I've seen people tech Falco's spike in Melee many times, it's made especially easy because it's predictable. Counter pick a stage with big ledges and you can tech it all day.


I'm not saying I get to cite reasons I'm not sure of. I'm saying, not only is your opinion conjecture, it is likely wrong (and offered my own opinion). And sorry, I should have bolded "If properly implemented" and "assuming meteor cancelling isn't changed." Those are extremely important. Unless I'm mistaken, PM meteor cancelling means you cannot MC nearly as soon as you can in melee. I also believe the hitstun can be adjusted so that you cannot MC out even longer. So :if properly implemented: falco's combos would be escapable at low %s (which would be good as every other character's are to some extent), it would prevent easy low % kills that Falco does not deserve, dair would kill at high percents like other powerful dairs in PM, and his combos would be guaranteed past low %. Of course this is a lot of conjecture as I am no pro brawl modder.

Sorry, I am just tired of people immediately jumping on anyone suggesting changes to the spacies and assuming that any single change will destroy the character when plenty of characters have remained intact with changes. That baseless opinion has plagued every thread about spacies since the inception of PM lol. But I do appreciate your suggestion, PAL esque dair could well change things and I hope the PMBR is trying it out.

Also I have no idea what you are trying to say with "Falco takes a risk every time he jumps off the stage to spike you because his recovery sucks." No decent falco dairs off stage unless it is a rising dair or a ledgehop rising dair. 99% of Falco's Dair kills happen on stage or extremely close to the stage since Falco cannot survive any dair even remotely below the stage. Unless its a suicide dair lol
 

1MachGO

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1MachGO
-I would like to debate with you, but I can't seem to find out what the hell your argument for spikes is other than meteors have 20% more knock back. Which somehow makes them unfair.
You are either trolling or you have 0 reading comprehension skills.
 

TreK

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I feel like it's relevant :

What is the correct DI out of the Ken combo ?
 

Soft Serve

softie
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DI all marth fairs (and forward throws) down and away and he doesn't get a follow up unless he in on stage and can land into other options. If you're at higher percents then DIing the fairs away could set you up for easy gimps, but at least then you have the chance to play the recovery game.

This thread is pretty pointless. Spikes/meteors are almost never a good option for covering the ledge anyway, they are good if you're character is one that can go off stage and hit them while they are recovering.

This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfxoTRzSfTM is a great example of what marth's Dair can and can't do. If you watch, Marth only can cover the ledge with Dair if Ike doesn't sweetspot. If Ike does go for the sweetspot, then marth has to grab the ledge. This is pretty much how every character has to recover versus marth, if they can't come back high then they have to choose to go for the ledge or just above the ledge, its been like than since melee (think marth dittos or marth/sheik).Considering part of your argument is that spikes remove the interaction between players (Which is a term thrown around far too much to justify think imo), you shouldn't ignore that to be in a situation where marth's dair can hit them off the ledge the recovering character has to make the choice to not sweetspot.

Why go for flashy dunks to edgeguard when just a tilt to cover the ledge into any ledgehopped aerial or just holding the ledge is a beter option?
 

standardtoaster

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Just to be clear, we changed the meteor cancel window from 8 frames (melee) to 16 frames. The two main reasons for this are melee's MC timing was really stupid (we all know this) and brawl (pm as well) does not have a fail window for upB. You can mash to your heart's content and never fail to MC. We plan on fixing the fail window on all parts of meteor canceling as soon as we can. The MC window may adjust based on our ability to fix the fail window, but we do not have a concrete answer at this time.
 

Mr.Random

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Lets be real, this thread never had a chance for civil discussion
<3 Burnsy took the words right out of my mouth lol <3 I'm late to this discussion but I like spikes (not the pointy ones). I just like them....does that count?

Just to be clear, we changed the meteor cancel window from 8 frames (melee) to 16 frames. The two main reasons for this are melee's MC timing was really stupid (we all know this) and brawl (pm as well) does not have a fail window for upB. You can mash to your heart's content and never fail to MC. We plan on fixing the fail window on all parts of meteor canceling as soon as we can. The MC window may adjust based on our ability to fix the fail window, but we do not have a concrete answer at this time.
I know it sounds dumb but can you get rid of meteor canceling all together? I feel it's such a bad mechanic.
 

Spiffykins

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Messages
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Meteor cancelling is a great idea, even if it was implemented poorly in Melee. It's not hard to see the logic behind it. Moves that hit downward in SSB64 were ultra-super OP. All you had to do was tap someone past the ledge and hit them with any number of strong, fast spikes. Meteor cancelling alone would have been enough to balance most of these moves, but unfortunately many of them also gained a significant amount of startup, eg Falcon/Ness/Samus down airs. (I'm talking strictly about Melee here, not PM.)

Some of the trade-offs between meteors and spikes were already discussed so I won't go into that, but just the fact that there is the option to make a downward hitting move meteor or spike without changing the angle too much is good. We all know spikes are overall much stronger than meteors. Do you really want Falcon or Wolf to be able to kill you 9001% of the time they get you off stage? They can put their down airs pretty much anywhere they want to, fast, and still make it back.
 

Xinc

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One of the things I noticed is that even though I can cancel the meteor, on occasion, I do it a little bit too late and end up too far to RECOVER. Any tips? Or is this the wrong thread for this.
 

GP&B

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Well, given that you can mash Up B (but not DJ mind you), anticipate the meteor and hit it like crazy. Of course, you may still fail to recover if you take too much knockback as it is.
 

Mr.Random

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Meteor cancelling is a great idea, even if it was implemented poorly in Melee. It's not hard to see the logic behind it. Moves that hit downward in SSB64 were ultra-super OP. All you had to do was tap someone past the ledge and hit them with any number of strong, fast spikes. Meteor cancelling alone would have been enough to balance most of these moves, but unfortunately many of them also gained a significant amount of startup, eg Falcon/Ness/Samus down airs. (I'm talking strictly about Melee here, not PM.)

Some of the trade-offs between meteors and spikes were already discussed so I won't go into that, but just the fact that there is the option to make a downward hitting move meteor or spike without changing the angle too much is good. We all know spikes are overall much stronger than meteors. Do you really want Falcon or Wolf to be able to kill you 9001% of the time they get you off stage? They can put their down airs pretty much anywhere they want to, fast, and still make it back.
Yet 64 is still considered the most balanced official Smash games. I'd rather just have spikes unless you can only meteor cancel with Up B.
 

Burnsy

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Yet 64 is still considered the most balanced official Smash games. I'd rather just have spikes unless you can only meteor cancel with Up B.
If Smash 64 was the same way it was mechanically but had 25-40 characters there's no way it would have been the most balanced smash game
 
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