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Troublesome Matchups For You?

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
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Also, I think these forums need a matchup discussion thread.

I main Diddy Kong in Project M, but since I play Sheik in Melee, I co-main Sheik. I've noticed there are some trends in the matchups I have trouble with for Diddy, though they're fortunately usually covered by Sheik.

Here are the matchups I have trouble with off my experience:
Ike, Ivysaur, Link, Luigi, Mario, Peach, Roy, Samus.

Basically, I have trouble with sword characters (Ike, Ivysaur, Link, Roy), Plumbers, and walls that like to trade. Interestingly, I have no trouble with Marth.

Anyone have any similar experience?
Do any of you agree with the matchups I find troublesome (are they actually bad matchups) for Diddy?
I don't have meaningful experience against a lot of the cast, so I dunno which other characters I'd have trouble with; are there any other characters I should be prepared for mentally based on these trends?
 

Temkin

BUSTER
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If they're just projectile spamming, just Nair. It destroys projectiles I believe. I did have a little trouble with Luigi but haven't played many
 

Searing_Sorrow

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Ike and ivysaur can usually be overcome with matchup experience, though the range and power of ike's moves are silly, diddy really isn't the best weight for ike's combos, so you mostly only have to fear his jab, grab, and full commitment strings. Ivysaur I can usually her deep diddy things, so don't really know any good ones to even make a comment about.

Take mario to stages like battlefield, Him having a chain grab to tilt string that puts you on 0-70% , and then a up throw to fair that works at kill percent makes the matchup silly on certain stages.
Peach and Roy tend to hate fighting diddy since he can constantly reset to a biased neutral with his ridiculous mobility. Spam peanut on peach, and with banana in hand or near you, roy is as lot more manageable.

Link isn't as hard as tink to deal with, and the slight boomerang speed nerf actually helps in taking space from him with counter zoning when battling for stage control. (Do not try and out camp him the entire match).

Luigi has an exponentially better punish game in the matchup, but diddy wins neutral. You will have to pitch a tent and bait his wavedash and make him commit to the nair.

Samus matchup kind of sucks because diddy lacks good vertical finishers. Don't get suckered into aerial approaching too much. She cc's everything, so if you get her in the air, keep her there. Crossing through missile spam is not where you want to be, so keep a banana out, and use it in conjunction with agt to make your air movement safe.
Sheik, mario, samus, and wolf still suck to fight against this patch.
 

Soft Serve

softie
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I pretty much agree with everything searing sorrow said, although I still think peach is really rough. @Seagull Joe do you still think Peach is our worst MU? can you elaborate on why?

I do think samus wolf suck to fight, I think mario/sonic/fox/wario are bad but manageable for us, dont have a lot of opinion on sheik this patch. I think we might lose to jiggs although she doesn't matter because no one plays her, Lucas might be even-ish but I think we probably lose to ness this patch. his Magnet/dthrow buffs really hurt, and the punish game was really skewed before hand. MK might be a hard MU too.

I think we go even/slightly beat flaco and bop link.

We don't really have a lot of bad MUs. A lot of even-ish MUs where we win neutral hard but our punish game sucks vs them and they kill us in two hitconfirms.


I know @ Searing_Sorrow Searing_Sorrow you think we win the ROB MU or at least shut him down, I was iffy on the MU last patch but rob got changes so hes easier to combo, I think we might win cleanly now. Do you have any thoughts on the m2 MU?
 

Searing_Sorrow

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That pretty much explained diddy in a nut shell. I put together a few new combos in 3.6 and been practicing nonstop, but afraid they will nerf it again. Pretty much diddy ' s combo game is even more silly than I realized. Revolving around side b.
 

Soft Serve

softie
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yeah pretty much, I've been working on optimizing combos and tech chases into side-b too. helps a lot on combo weights like shiek/marth. Almost did a cool thing with it https://streamable.com/afan

I think combos like that will turn into BnBs for diddy eventually.
 
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Searing_Sorrow

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Messages
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Alma/Statesboro Georgia
M2 matchup seems more skill based. Though I am loving that fair nerf he got. And has anyone tried side b-side b- side b on rob yet, don't know if it is legit at a certain percent, but it was hilarious when I hit it. And yes I think rob is a lot more manageable now since he lost an approach option that had to be respected in side b (turned into the Yamcha it's so bad). And we can get out of down smash now. The chain grab is still annoying when caught, but how often does that happen? A matchup I probably wouldn't recommend fd though. He is still good, just has a lot more trouble killing now. Diddy still edgeguard him well and the core of the matchup is the same.

And to comment on the video, I think that works on ganon too, but DLA does that more than I do. Anyone have a way of seeing if side b to side b is an actual thing on ddd starting around 45% I don't have people to play against right now.
 
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DLA

"Their anguish was my nourishment."
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I think Squirtle might be our hardest MU honestly. I talked to Junebug about it and neither of us has any idea what to do in this MU (other than go Ganon, which still doesn't even work that well). Not only is he too small to ever hit with bananas, but when you do manage to do it, he slides too far away to reliably tech chase. Not to mention that he doesn't trip if he side B's over a banana on the ground. He combos us like crazy, edgeguards us really well, chaingrabs us, and outmaneuvers us in neutral.

Sword characters (namely Marth and Roy) are also really tough for us, especially if they know what to do with bananas. I also think Luigi is really tough for us, but that might just be because Sago is godlike. Though I play a lot of Luigis on netplay and it's often a lot closer than it should be.

I don't think Mario is super difficult for us. It's pretty much even IMO. If you're a better player you should be beating a Mario. It's one of our most aerial-heavy MUs, so it helps to have a good "classical" neutral game instead of relying on bananas.

I've never had much of a problem with Peach but then again I haven't fought many good ones in PM. I could see how it would be a tough MU.

I personally struggle with all of the spacies. I think 3.02 hurt our MUs with the spacies more than any other MUs we have. A lot of Diddys say we're even with Falco but I just don't see it. Then again, my biggest source of Falco experience is Kels and he just laser camps me the entire match, which is REALLY hard for Diddy to deal with IMO. But I think Fox might be our hardest spacie MU, followed closely by a tie between Falco and Wolf. Wolf was really easy in 3.02 but I think it's in his favor now.

Wario's really tough for us because his aerials stay out really long and beat bananas/peanuts for the whole duration. We're also combo fodder for him and if he grabs us, we're dead at like 80 or 90 IIRC because his Uthrow combos into Uair. It's really hard for us to KO him because he's in the air so often and therefore hard to hit with bananas.

Samus is solidly tough for us because she's really hard to kill, but I wouldn't say it's any worse than 60:40. Ness can be tough for the same reason Wario is: dangerous aerials, lots of throw combos, and he's in the air a lot so it's hard to use bananas. I think it's manageable though. And finally Ike is pretty annoying, and I maintain that Quickdraw is one of the dumbest mechanics in the game, but I think the MU is evenish overall.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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I will cosign a bit here with @ DLA DLA :

I have only played Squirtle casually with Diddy and oh my god does this character seem super obnoxious. I generally hate Squirtle with a passion and as much as I respect players for playing that little turd, I still wish that little **** didn't exist on a conceptional level.

Marth feels a bit difficult mostly because the juggle game is pretty ridiculous and I generally don't expect to get down if they know what they're doing. Roy is sorta the same way, but it definitely feels better than Marth does... but ****ing downtilt. : /

Mario is okay, nothing to see.

Peach is just really hard to deal with. Difficult to knock down because she floats and I am not super familiar with her percents that I can knock her down at. Her aerial mobility is great and trading with her is really really bad. Also, it feels like the only aerial that we can use for space control is back air. In addition, I feel like I should be basically dead any time that I'm offstage. Using her turnips and our mobility + annoying with popgun and some stray confirms is the way that I approach it. Hanky has mentioned that he has had problems dealing with Boss' Diddy, but iirc he's beaten it the last time they played. It feels pretty hard, but in concept it's only slight disadvantage (or so Hanky thinks).

I think Falco is okay enough, but there aren't any around here that camp like Kels... so I can see it being not great. Fox is obviously disadvantaged and I think we have to play it moderately similar to how Sheik has to play it: have worse tools, focus on getting the knockdown, focus on getting Fox off stage and hope you can convert. What we don't have in needles, we do have with Banana and that is cool. Not enough familiarity with Wolf but imo it seems like you combine falcon with fox and this abomination is what is results from that so on a conceptual level, I think we probably lose this one also.

Wario is kinda like peach and Puff had a baby in terms of engagement and dealing with recovery. Hard to hit and kill, kills us pretty easily when we're offstage, it just is bad feels.

Dunno too much about Samus, but I did beat Abu's by camping hard, throwing him offstage and shooting peanuts/bananas at him when he was offstage. I got dunked by Tetraflora's Ness in tournament, but I don't really have a lot of experience. Ike's QD is cancer and I've tried very hard to kill that move, but people are attached to it. Even worse versions are still ridiculously good. Basically **** Ike. He's also hard to kill and feels like he kills Diddy, but idk I guess it's not all that terrible of a MU.
 
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Soft Serve

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I agree with most of what you guys are saying. If I had to pick out what our worst MUs are, I'd probably say Peach/Samus Because we just can't kill them and don't win neutral hard, Fox/Wolf because their rush down is just too much at times, and the small changes didn't effect much at all, and squirtle/Wario. Squirtle is impossible to hit, we get like, 2 hit combos on him and gimping him is difficult, and even if we get a trip he slides so much on trip it feels like I might as well not pull a banana vs him. He also combos us to hell and should gimp us for free. Wario is easier to kill than peach/Samus but blows us up harder with his punish game.

I feel like we beat swordies (at least marth/Ike) or at worst go even with them. At least vs marth (and ike as well) out spacing him with horizontal reach due to glide toss is so strong in the DD game. We can whiff punish dtilts in neutral or at least make him shield for it which is huge and allows us to take more control of the flow of the match. We shouldn't struggle toooo much getting down from juggles compared to other characters, side-b is really strong for this and is at least more of a tool than some characters have (although if we get hit afterwards RIP getting back to stage). Punish game is huge on both sides, and I think we gimp marth pretty well with z drops, intercepting bairs and using the Marth Slayer. Marth also gets marth syndromed harder in this MU than we do imo. the Ike MU is similar.

Getting off the ledge vs marth if we don't have a banana or a platform to ledge jump/waveland too is hell though.

Roy is dumb because Dtilt and side-b. Also that Bair is dumb. Idk, I could probably agree on slight advantage Roy


I really really don't want to think Falco is any worse that 55/45 his favor. I think we can still fight him fairly in neutral unlike vs other spacies, and I think if we get a banana out and use it well the MU is 60/40 in our favor at that point. Bananas going through lasers is so huge, all we have to do is catch onto their laser rhythms, get comfortable moving through/around lasers, and glide toss punish the jump for a laser with a banana and then tech chase him off stage off of that trip. You can cover most of falco's recovery options on reaction if you jump out after him (jump out, DJ upair if he does high side-b, fair the sweetspot side-b, then if he goes low and up-b monkey flip jump him, if he goes high up-b side-b back to ledge and re-act/call the up-b path accordingly with bair/reverse upair. Once he hits around 40 as well everything starts knocking down which leads to big dmg for us, and at around 48ish is when up-throw starts chaingrabbing with optimal DI on his part.

If Falco gets the banana and is content with lasering it out though the MU is like, unwinnable. I think falco wins slightly in raw neutral, we win slightly if we get a banana out and in control, and if he gets the banana its over lol. Its definitely winnable, and I think honestly campy falco is easier to deal with than aggro falco.
 
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