Triforce of Wisdom: Mindgames, Applied ATs, and Strategies

[TimeSmash]

Hey everyone this is TimeSmash, and I was thinking of a thread that could potentially blow up here in this forum subsection since people actually care about how Zelda plays in PM! What I want to discuss here are what sort of mindgames we can use against the opponent, how to apply certain ATs in strategic or surprising ways, combos Zelda might have, and strategies in general (not MUs, but guidelines). This should be a community effort, since I have limited knowledge on the subject and everyone has knowledge and different playstyles of this character. Let's bring this ***** to the top. Be aware that this guide is of 3.5 Zelda, and is subject to change until the "gold" version of PM is released.

3.5 is OUT! T

This week We are talking about Forward Tilt, Mystic Swipe!

HUGE EDIT: The OP won't be updated for a while due to school. Please note that you can read through the thread to find info that hasn't been posted here. Also, all the data and discussions pertaining to 3.02 will be kept, and categorized under something titled "3.02 version" stuff for reference. Expect an OP update sometime in the future. Thanks!!!

I decided to color code some things here because that might be easier for everyone. Color coding takes kind of long, so all sections are not color coded yet. Here's a brief description of what each color stands for:

This color breaks up the main parts of the Triforce of Wisdom thread, such as the Idea Board, Archive, and Topics section.
This color is used mainly in the Topics portion of this guide, just to tell you which page numbers talked about whatever topic.
This color highlights certain areas of Topics you might find particularly interesting.
This color denotes usernames/tags of people on this site.

Idea Board
Please PM me any ideas/topic you want to discuss in this thread, until we have another Idea Week. Also feel free to post in the thread! The Idea Board serves as a placeholder for topics we want to discuss, ranging from simple to complex. If we want a truly comprehensive Zelda guide, we all need to contribute and decide what to talk about next. Anything is appreicated!

Spoiler

Note: Further ideas will be added, and some taken away as they are discussed.

• Chaingrabs (Uthrow and Dthrow for Spacies--note D throw dependent on bad DI)
• Transformation Detonation use
• Exploration of combos
• Footstooling: What can it be used for?
• What you should be practicing as Zelda (Solo and friendlies)
• Becoming Fast
• Utilizing Sheik, and Sheilda play

GENERAL DESCRIPTION OF ATs AND TERMS EVERY ZELDA SHOULD KNOW

Spoiler

TO BE EDITED, one day this may be in alphabetical order.

• Wavedashing: Jumping and immediately Airdodging into the ground, and then carrying over the momentum from the airdodge into the ground, resulting in your character sliding across the ground a set distance in a standing position. You can do any action out of standing, although Zelda's wavedash is quite short.
• Recoil Special: This nifty technique involves jumping forward then performing a special backwards, followed by smashing the control stick forwards. Your character should bounce backwards as a result.
• Teledash: Airdodging/wavedashing out of Zelda's UpB, thereby cancelling its full length and being able to act out of it. Note that Teledashing must start on the ground, or if Zelda starts her teleport in the air, but lands on the ground before she disappears, and eliminates the Teleburn hitbox.
• Teleburn: The technical term for the burn hitbox that appears when Zelda comes out of her Teleport.
• B-reversal: Reversing your neutral b in the air by smashing the opposite direction of your jump.
• Love Jump: When in hitstun, jumping followed immediately by Nayru's Love, will launch Zelda high up while performing Nayru's Love. This wastes her second jump, but is great for escaping combos.
• Land-cancelled Nayru's Love:
• Waveland: Similar to wavedashing, but not done as instantly. Wavelanding generally means you airdodge into the ground when landing instead of just regularly landing.
• Wavebounce: Another term for Recoil Special
• Jump-cancelling: This is the act of cancelling a jump into actions such as USmashing or grabs. To perform it, hit the jump button, then perform another action immediately. You will receive a slight momentum boost, which can extend the range of your attacks or grabs.
• OoS: Short for [jumping] out-of-shield. It is faster to jump out-of-shield than to drop your shield, and some techniques can only be done via out-of-shield methods.
• Farore's Boost: When in hitstun, use your UpB to perform Farore's Boost. It's similar to how the Love Jump works.
• Diamond Dive: When entering the tumble animation after a state of knockback and hitstun, Wavebounce Nayru's Love to fast fall Nayu's at an angle of up to 45 degrees.
  
  -The Backwards Diamond Dive: B-reverse Nayru's after DIing away from the point of launch.
  
  -Forwards Diamond Dive: B-reverse Nayru's toward the launch point then away. The inverse makes it go backwards but the same can be accomplished with a b-reversal. (not as effective but worth mentioning is that you can simply DI away from the point of launch and press b to do a forwards Diamond Dive, but the angle isn't as wide as the recoiled version and it takes longer to perform.)
• Chaingrab: This is when you grab someone, throw them, and then before they land you grab them again. This can be done on characters of certain weights and at certain percentages. Spacies are often a candidate for spacegrabs, but Zelda can be too!
• Powersheild/Perfectsheild: This is when you throw up your shield at the very last moment. Powershielding can be used to reflect projectiles, but also has the benefit of being able to drop your shield much quicker. Powershielding also reduces the damage taken to your shield so you have that benefit too.
• Zhime Combo: The beautiful Zhime came up with a combo wherein you place a Din's at the ledge while the enemy is recovering, and place another Din's behind Zelda, at an angle that will connect with her Bthrow. If you get the timing right, you grab the opponent from the hitstun they receive from hitting the Din's, possibly pummel them a few times, and time your backthrow so that when you throw the opponent, the explosion goes off and they get KO'd!

Archive
The archive serves as a documentation of what we have discussed, thread updates, etc.

Spoiler

• This week 2/9/14 we will be discussing the use of teleport and its amazing wavedash-cancel, the Teledash. I also figured we could talk about the beginning hit of Zelda's UpB, as well as the Teleburn, or "reappear hit" Zelda has when she returns out of teleport that has a fire element.

• Placeholder for Din's

• 3/28/14. Added a lot to the ATs/Techniques section, minor aesthetic changes (made "a community effort" blue in the opening paragraph, etc.)
• Idea week was 3/31/14. You guys have to post more on what we should talk about in this thread!
• 4/7/2014. Added a summary of Din's Fire, changed discussion topic to Nayru's Love, but want to focus on a lot of things like Diamond Diving, Love Jump, and land cancelling.
• 4/9/2014. A lot of editing to the Din's section, beginning to color code this guide so it's easier to access.
• 4/10/14 Added description of Diamond Diving, hopefully finally finishing Din's.
• Nayru's (placeholder)
• LK placeholder
• 5/5/2014: Edited a little in the OP, will have to delay on the sum-up of Nayru's, cuz of finals and stuff
• 5/7/2014: FINALLY finished the Din's summary, barely started Nayru's summary, added the terms chaingrab and powershielding/perfect shielding to the list of ATs
• 
  
• 5/28/14: Super inactive for a while, but started discussion on Zelda's Nair and a little more editing for Nayru's summary
• 6/25/14: Well I have been enjoying summer and Mario Kart 8, but finally updated Nayru's stuff, and changed topic to Up Air discussion
• Forward Air discussion!!!
• Down Air discussion!

Topics
Table of Contents (Use Control+F to search for the title within this post!)
1. Teledash and Teleport
2. Using Din's Fire Effectively
3. Nayru's Love(in progress of editing summary)
4. Lightning Kicks (coming soon!)
5. Neutral Air (Magic Spin) (coming soon!)
6. Up Air (coming soon!)
7. Down Air (coming soon!)
8. Sheilda (coming soon!)
9. Down Tilt
10. New Din's
11. New Nayru's Love
12. New Lightning Kicks
13. Dash Attack
14. Ftilt
15. Teams
16.

Undiscussed:

-Utilt
-Down Throw
-Back Throw
-Up Throw
-Pummel
-FSmash
-USmash
-DSmash
-Jab

1. Teledash and Teleport (in 3.02) Pages: 1

Spoiler

The Teleport is a simpler name for Zelda's Up B, Farore's Wind. The move has a weak beginning hitbox and a stronger "reappear" hitbox with a fire element. This "reappear hit" is what I have dubbed the Teleburn, for brevity's sake. If started from the ground, Zelda can wavedash out of her teleport at any time. Such a technique is called the Teledash. This technique cancels the Teleburn effect though, so Zelda can be quite harmless if an opponent predicts your Teledash.

What we have discussed from 2/9/14 to 2/23/14 is compiled here. This and all topics may be revisited as the character is changed, new things are discovered about the character or metagame, or simply to rediscuss.

Teleporting/dashing can be used to effectively edgehog and edgeguard opponents. SmashtheCstik notes that because of the rotation Zelda does when executing her UpB, she can quickly drop from the ledge, jump, and execute her UpB, making her instantly grab the ledge. If an opponent is close enough, the beginning hitbox of Teleport will hit the enemy. This hit sends the enemy at a low angle, around 25 degrees according to BJN39. This user also notes and interesting mindgame-edgeguard, as seen in the quote below:

Also, scaring your opponent into thinking you are gonna "No-poof" FW the ledge to edgehog when they're recovering by jumping and using FW to the ground, (and NOT ledge grab FWing) making them recover high, or above the ledge, while you can get a better opportunity to punish them. I've seen Zhime using this technique occasionally.

Also to be mentioned is the glitch that can happen with Teleport on stages such as Yoshi's Story and WarioWare. If you hold up after you UpB, you may get stuck in the wall, and consequently go nowhere and kill yourself. To get around this, simply let go of the control stick after you UpB (credit to Blondie and DSS)

Zelda can't teleport up walls if you hold up. It's a glitch.

Basically, what you do in that situation is press up to activate the up b, and then put the control stick back to neutral. This will make it so you go straight up without getting stuck.

Zelda can also UpB from the stage to instagrab the ledge if she does it at the right distance, as highlighted by Jtm94 and myself. One day when I actually have time, a stage list will be put here listing the spots Zelda needs to start he UpB at to succesfully grab the ledge. Note that once you have put in your directional input of the teleport, you should press the control stick towards the ledge so she grabs it. Otherwise, you may kill yourself or something very peculiar happens. Zelda will come off stage, but still have her second jump. Don't know if she can act instantaneously out of this but it's worth noting. WhiteCrow also notes some interesting instagrab-ledge from stage platforms :

You CAN do a grounded FW to grab ledge IF you are on a platform. This is where some awesome options come into play, especially in doubles. On a stage like battlefield you can teleport from either the left or right platform directly to their respective ledges. I'm fairly certain you can do this from any position on the platform, but someone should correct me if I'm wrong. If you don't feel like committing to the edge hog you can always cancel your teledash to the stage below, or teledash to the opposite platform to re-position and set Dins.

Last but not least, you must get the feel of Zelda's UpB for you to use it effectively. This means you should know the distance a full UpB goes, and the moment you can Teledash. WhiteCrow and DarkStarStorm have discussed ways to practice:

A fun way to practice FW to edge hog is simply; grab ledge> full jump up> FW back to the edge. Do it over and over at different jump heights to get it every time. If you want to increase your control of platform to platform teleportation, try the same method above adding; waveland on platform> teledash to opposite platform> FW to ledge grab. Battlefield is a great stage for practicing this.

Using the smoke ball to track your movement is the best way to practice the teledash. There is another way to do good edge guards with FW; teledashing off the edge of the stage and hitting them with a fair or Nayru's Love is good. Or using the disappearance hitbox it gimp (not advisable). I really need to try this but I've seen the uses of a wavebounced Nayru to launch yourself back at the source of knockback, catching them offguard. I should post that in the Zelda Balance and MU learning.

2. Using Din's Fire Effectively (in 3.02) Pages: 1,2

Spoiler

Holy cow where to begin with this move. Let's start with a basic rundown of it. Din's Fire is Zelda's Side B, an excellent candidate for B Reversals and Recoil Specialing. The way Din's works in Project M is that Zelda can cast out three fireballs at once, set on a time delay of three seconds until they explode. Every new Din's resets the timer, but after the third Din cast you will start to delete your older Din's (ex. your third erases your first, your fourth replaces your second). When casting Din's the fireball can move through most platforms (Smashville and Green Hill Zone platforms can cause it to do slightly wonky things), but when moving, the fireball does no damage itself. When actually placed, it will be its own hitbox, causing low percent damage and putting your opponent in hitstun. The explosion hitbox of Din's is much more lethal, and can even KO opponents. But when Din's are in their mine phase, they cause a lot of pressure on your opponent. Mines have three type of explosion hitboxes depending on the time they are out--we can refer to these hitboxes as Level 1, 2, or 3, with three being the largest and most damage-dealing explosion. Be aware that Zelda will glide slightly when using Din's in the air, but she has more lag while casting Din's in the air. Also note that Zelda is super vulnerable while casting Din's--people will take advantage of this, so don't be stupid and use it like two feet from them (unless you're doing a mixup kind of play). This is a great projectile, and you can use it to start a lot of combos or really throw people off

Some common uses of Din's are described as follows:

For versatility of usage of Din's Fire, WhiteCrow notes:

Ah Din's... Where do you even start? The combo potential? The ability to protect territory like a Marvel Assist? Wave-bounce potential? Edge guard set ups? Free off grabs?

Nah, I want to start with control and kill potential. Learn to wiggle those Din's! Curved approaches can throw off your opponents movement and allow for sneakier placements at whatever height you desire. Din's move in all directions at the same speed, use that to make your angles consistently unpredictable. A good way to practice this is by trying to mimic Mewtwo's shadow ball movement with a Din in training mode. While this might not be practical for every approach it will give you amazing control of your Din's. It also allows you to weave fire balls through platform heavy stages, like Battlefield and Dracula's Castle in doubles, without miss-placing them on the platforms. If you do this after good DI from a near fatal hit you can even get closer to the stage with a wave-bounce and then set up a clutch Din before using your second jump.

For when your opponent is recovering, or offstage, White Lightnin had this gem to offer:

White Lightnin
You can choose to do a set up but you can also choose to juggle the opponent in the air while they are recovering. It requires really good control of dins and is harder to perform then creating a setup. You could also choose to do a combination of both where you first go with cutting recovery options and then going for the juggle. If you miss the juggle you will still be covered, but if you hit you have the option to continue the juggle. You'll have to choose if you want to continue the juggle eventually at the cost of the loss of your set up, but depending on the situation you may be able to create a setup again before the opponent has recovered to the stage

Adding onto that, the Zhime Combo is also a great way to tack on some damage or even get a kill depending on the opponent's percentage. DarkStarStorm notes:

ZHime Combo: Dins at ledge, Dins at opposite corner of the map, they roll or go over the dins, you grab, b-throw, into Dins at upper opposite corner of map, blow up, death. *choppy sentence for the win*

And that choppy sentence will get you some wins, just be smart and predict what the opponent might do! Din's is a fantastic way to edgeguard, you can set fireballs right on the edge even!

Din's is EXCELLENT also a great way to combo or lead into setups. Din's is this great, great, fantastic tool you can use to have EXCELLENT stage control, perhaps the best in the game. Be wise where you place your Din's--at first, you'll spam them everywhere and that can work to an extent. But when it comes to high level play, your opponent isn't going to let that happen, and even though Din's is a great move, you often have better options than to use it. You can potentially be baited into using it, in which your opponent will predict it and rush in before you're done casting it, or during the huge endlag it has.

However, you can also throw a Din's out to bait your opponent, which opens up a lot of options. Kaeldiar notes:

Kaeldiar said
If they take the time to destroy them, that's an opening. Not to mention, you have to be pretty precise to get rid of them without hitting them, unless your name is Marth. If you see them trying to destroy it, go after them! Then, they have to worry about dodging you, which means they might bump into the Din's they have so conveniently put themselves next to

Din's isn't something you throw out there, hoping they'll run into it. You use them strategically. You use them as feints, as pseudo-pressure. One does not simply use Din's alone. Din's works best in conjunction with everything else you do.

You can also force them to approach you in ways that they don't want. Set them on the ground to force Spacies to jump into up-smash, or in the air to keep away those pesky Falco d-airs. Din's forces your opponent to make moves they don't want to make. I think we'd probably all benefit from watching Rolex play. He has crazy mind games as Snake that could probably transfer over well to Zelda. He controls his spacing by limiting the field with mines. It's scary. I can see us doing the same with Din's.

Kaeldiar goes over some great options for us, utilizing the lag opponents will have by nullfiying or running into the Din's, which you should be aware of at all times so you can react appropriately. He also goes over how we can somewhat alter the opponent's playstyle with our Din's placing. White Crow adds onto this, referencing Snake:

WhiteCrow said
I like Kaeldiar's comparison to Rolex's Snake. It's all about having frustrating placements and knowing when and where to place your "mines." I was a Snake main in brawl, so I kind of treat them like items. You never want to waste a placement, and you have to acknowledge how fragile then are.

As far as comboing into/from Din's goes, WhiteCrow had this to offer:

It really depends on where your opponent is after a launch. Trying to set up Din's when your opponent isn't in hitstun is like begging to get punished. No Din's placement feels like a guaranteed hit since there are so many variables, but there are safer places to put them. Personally, I like putting Din's at the center of platforms, just below or semi inside the platform. Makes dropping through the platform a non option (if they DI'd up to land on the platform) and it keeps my Din threatening and protected. Level 2 explosions cover most of the platform at this angle when they detonate which is good to know if they stay in shield forever. It also covers below the platform but is easier to disarm if they are on the main stage. I like setting these kinds of Din's after a nair when I can't follow up with a teledash and we're both in the air. Placement also depends on the character you're fighting and how easily they can disarm your traps. If they have a disjointed jab I usually try to keep my Din's off the ground. If they have a projectile I try to make them inconvenient to disarm.

Instead of thinking of it as a combo extender try thinking of it as a launch follow up. Any time you launch an opponent you need to gauge if you should be placing Din's/chasing for aerials/re-positioning. One thing I've been trying recently is Din out of full hit nair, curving it down at first to give me a moment to read their DI. You want your Din's in the most inconvenient spaces for your opponent in hit stun.

Level 1 and 2 aren't useless either. Their explosions can offer that little push you need to shield stab someone into a setup. When your opponent gets caught in shield stun while shielding a burst you have a little bit of time to get away or re-position.

Kaeldiar also added his input, stating:

You can put Din's right on top of your opponent and damage him instantly. More likely, however, you'll put it in a place that he'll likely bump into, and you'll get a bit of damage and cause some hitstun that you can use to start a combo...What you can do is place the Din's so that the knockback from your moves launches them into the placed fireball, which knocks them back towards you for another strike...It's also pretty fun hiding the Din's in weird spots on stages, like Sky World's clouds or behind pillars on Skyloft. Standing on your mines can be pretty hilarious too since your skirt covers it completely. Wave dash back punish. Friendlies are a good place to practice Din angles.

SmashTheCstik stated an interesting combo into Zelda's Down Air:

For me i like to use it to set up a Dair spike. After you knock them off the stage, place your Din in the path of their recovery, preferably where they will get hit on their jump or up B, time your jump properly so you'll be above them once they hit it and bounce up into your Dair. Easy spike for me.

WhiteCrow, who is amazing for contributing so much to this topic also talks about KO potential with Din's:

Now, onto kill potential. I'm pretty sure Din's comes in 3 different sizes depending on the distance the Din travels. I've found curving in large arks to be the best way to set up third level Din's (sometimes out of frame by curving it like a rainbow, but it's really punishable if you don't have a teammate). I know it's not the most practical move but, if left unattended, a level 3 Din can be as dangerous as Snake's C4. I did some tests on Final Destination to figure out kill percents with level 3 Din's (can't account for DI since I used lvl 3 CPU's. No one wants to help with testing...). Most consistent results so far: Jiggly Puff 65%, Marth 105%, Peach 88%, Mario 91%, Shiek 95%. Pretty standard kill percents, but they get even lower when you factor in Din's placed on platforms or high off stage. Level 3's explosion hitbox deserves some respect. Level 1 and 2 aren't useless either. Their explosions can offer that little push you need to shield stab someone into a setup. When your opponent gets caught in shield stun while shielding a burst you have a little bit of time to get away or re-position.

Lastly, Din's can be used to recover to the stage. When you perform Din's Fire in the air, you have this nice little glide that goes along with it so you can get some horizontal range. You do descend a little though, but the glide does last a while. However, be aware that when casting Din's in the air, not only are you wide open, but you also have ten million frames of endlag after you place your fireball! So you really have to be good about placing if you use Din's as a recovery. You can often place it right on the edge! Kaeldiar notes:

When recovering, Din's can be placed near the edge of the stage to prevent your opponent from easily edgeguarding you. You can set them around yourself to make it dangerous to approach you. Just be very careful about what height you start the animation...
I mostly use Din's when I'm coming back to clear the ledge. I'll put it so it hovers above the stage near the ledge, or right where they would be hanging if they were holding the ledge. Usually the first, but it's nice to mix things up if the first doesn't bother them. Additionally, if they tend to play a bit campy, I'll set up a few Din's, then try to put one on top of them. It almost never hits, but it forces them to move. With the other Din's set up, that limits where they can move, and typically makes it easy to land a hit or two.

WhiteCrow also emphasizes the use of aerial Din's, more focused on actual combat versus recovery:

Her animation while performing air Din has more end lag than the grounded one, but you can do wave bounce stuff with the air Din. You can get punished hard, and potentially screw up Din's placements, if you try and place them while getting juggled/being in range of any aerial. Use them sparingly and practice those curved Din's so your placement always counts.

Nayru's Love (IN PROGRESS) Pages: 2,3

Spoiler

Nayru's is another great move Zelda has. Sadly, it will probably be nerfed! Nayru's is a fast acting move with deceiving range and priority, and also acts as a reflector. A lot of Zeldas use it as a panic button move, for good reason. However, be wary not to overuse this move. It's incredibly easy to sheild through the whole thing and then get smashed after the move is done. Also the move becomes incredibly predictable if you use it too much. However, it's still a great move, and has some pretty great applications. A dual conribution of Nayru's-specific terms from DSS and Zhime is shown below:

Spoiler

Nayru's Escape
Simply using wavebounced Love Jumps to escape combos.

Love Jump
When coming out of a state of KB and hitstun jump and perform Nayru's. You will fly upwards in what's called the Love Jump.

FFl nayru cancel
When you fast fall Nayru's and end up land canceling it.

FFL nayru
Mash b while in hitstun and knockback. Zelda's panic button.

The Diamond Dive:
When coming out of a state of KB and HS, b-reverse Nayru's when you have entered the tumble animation and most momentum is gone...fast fall Nayu's at an angle of up to 45 degrees.

The Forwards Diamond Dive (simple):
DI away from the point of launch and hit b. You will travel at an angle while in Nayru's. Not as good as the Recoiled Diamond Dive, but easier...B-reverse Nayru's toward the launch point then away. The inverse makes it go backwards but the same can be accomplished with a b-reversal. (not as effective but worth mentioning is that you can simply DI away from the point of launch and press b to do a forwards Diamond Dive, but the angle isn't as wide as the recoiled version and it takes longer to perform.)

The Backwards Diamond Dive: B-reverse Nayru's after DIing away from the point of launch.

The Recoiled Diamond Dive:
Perform the Diamond Dive but with a Recoil Special, you will travel away from the launch point at a better angle than the simple forwards DD. Not only that, but it is quicker to execute than the simple version.

That seems like a comprehensive list, but it encompasses everything known about Nayru ATs so far. First we'll talk about using Nayru's in general and then get into things like Love Jumps and Diamond Diving.

As said before, Nayru's is this pretty move wherein a crystal forms around flanking around her. The move is quick (FRAME DATA) and even has a couple of invinciblity frames in the very beginning of the attack. It also functions as a reflector, which is great for some MUs. But be aware this attack is long--if you use it accidentally or use it to reflect against a fast projectile-spammy character (like Link, Dr. Mario to an extent), you will get hit after the attack ends. You can even landcancel this move by shorthopping it and then throwing it out quickly and you will have a lot less endlag.

Kaeldair gives a simple definition of landcancelling:

3. Using Nayru's in the air, then landing right after the attack frames are over. Then you can cancel the rest of the attack with anything, including simply movement

As described in the post above, you can sometimes landcancel Nayru's by mashing b in the air in hitstun. It's a great move to give you some breathing room.You will fastfall the move, which is a nice defensive opportunity.
DSS notes:

I usually utilize a retreating Nayru's after a missed bair. I don't do that with fair though, with fair I waveland and bait them into a F-smash. I agree though, people say that Nayru's is OP but just shield it and grab. The shield grab even works against land-canceled Nayru's in my experience.

Do be aware that Nayru's is kind of laggy towards the end, especially if not landcancelled. If facing a somewhat fast projectile-happy character like Link or Samus, Nayru's as a reflector won't help as much, DSS notes:

With Samus I don't like using Nayru's, it leaves me open for her approach even if I land-cancel it.

Further elaborating on this, Kaeldair notes other weaknesses of Nayru's Love:

Nayru's cannot reflect Solarbeam. I don't know about Seed Bomb.
Nayru's can be punished hard by simply being shielded, by aerial approaches from above, and largely disjointed hitboxes.

You can use Nayru's as an approach, but it's quite risky due to its endlag. Against someone like Samus, as said before you shouldn't use it as much but the move can help create an opening for you. An example from Downdraft is below:

Approaching with Nayru's depends on the opponent. Some people are good at predicting and countering it.
You might need to approach with Nayru's in order to get through projectiles, e.g. Samus's missiles and charge shot from across the stage.

So for more or less, we've covered generalities of Nayru's so far. So now let's talk about Nayru specific ATs, like the Love Jump and Diamond Dive. The Love Jump is a carry-over from Brawl, and is performed by jumping and then immediately pressing B. Zelda will perform an ascending Nayru's Love, escaping characters and dirty combos. Keep in mind this wastes Zelda's second jump, and leaves you above the enemy. You can angle the Love Jump, as well, just be wise to your positioning. Some people may use it as a safe recovery tool, as the Love Jump is actually much higher than Zelda's normal second jump.

The Diamond Dive can be seen as a variance of the Love Jump, and is performed by B-Reversing Nayrus while Zelda is in hitstun. DarkStarStorm allowed me use of his excellent tutorial video, which can be seen by following this link:

The video might be too technical for people who don't remember all the definitions (like me haha), so Kaeldair found an easy way to explain it:

On the subject of Diamond Diving, a lot of people unfamiliar with ATs (read: me) were having trouble with exactly how it works. I was able to come up with a short written summary of how it works. In all cases pretend that you are being hit to the left.

To DD away...hold left after contact to DI away and create horizontal momentum. Then let go of left and hit B to start Nayru's.

To DD towards...hold left after contact to DI away and create horizontal momentum. Then let go of left and hit B to start Nayru's. THEN immediately hit and hold left again to move right (yeah, I know, weird) and DD back to them
EDIT: Note that in every case, you ALWAYS press away from the opponent on the control stick. Never towards

Lastly, here is some other various info about Nayru's given to us by Kaeldair. He talks about how Nayru's is with Solarbeam, and covers various pros an cons of Nayru's

Nayru's cannot reflect Solarbeam. I don't know about Seed Bomb.
Nayru's can be punished hard by simply being shielded, by aerial approaches from above, and largely disjointed hitboxes. Using it as an approach is dangerous, especially if your foe tends to shield when approached. That being said, I like to use it to "counter-approach." I set up Din's to force them to approach, then when they come at me with a SHFFL or something of the like, I jump towards them to throw off their spacing and use a land-canceled Nayru's. It typically knocks them near (if not into) the Din's, and you can follow up easily.
You can also stay in place or wavedash forward, and use a grounded Nayru's for the invincibility frames.

NEW DIN'S STUFF EDITING HERE 3.5

Spoiler

Din's Fire has changed a lot since its 3.02 incarnation. Instead of having three mines to throw out, you only have one. Additionally, the movement is slightly changed--it is faster in the beginning, but slows down once it reaches the largest hitbox size. The mine will last for three seconds before exploding, with the explosion being based one how long you cast the Din's. You also do not glide anymore when placing a Din's in the air, you fastfall instead. Lastly, after the Din's explodes, it will attempt to return to Zelda, bending and then coming back to her. You can now manually detonate the Din's, but it won't be crazy strong unless the timer is allowed to run out. Manually detonating the Din's allows you to recall it faster as well, which is great in interuppting and annoying your enemies. The resting Din's mine can be clanked, in which it will try to return to Zelda. If Zelda is hurt, KO'd, or teleports(?), the fireball will continue on its own path. It can still hit people, but won't return to Zelda.


Overview and Strategies
4ltas wrote a hugely informative post on the new incarnation of Din's Fire, seen below:

Din remains in place after placement for 3 seconds, at which point it explodes and returns to Zelda. The explosion has a large, damaging hitbox with decent hitstun, while the normal wisp/mine has a smaller hitbox that deals less damage and has low hitstun.

DISCLAIMER: The following description was written with prior incarnations of Dins Fire in mind. Writer is not responsible for any injuries, accidents, or losses resulting from user's interpretation of this description.

Pros:
- It comes out super fast at first, so she can place one in her old blind spot midrange super quickly and convert immediately
- fully charged Din's explosion is MASSIVE
- Din can be recalled on command, useful for surprising opponents
- commanded explosion stalls din travel, allowing you to alter the return timing
- transforming can detonate Din
- Din is not entirely useless when clanked, it promptly returns to you, often hitting them
- Clanking Dins or absorbing Dins does not remove the dins, but does remove the hitbox
- Return trajectory can be controlled and secret. It goes either up or down, depending upon the direction it was heading when placed. So if it was going up but you just barely hit down at the last moment, the opponent sees it going up but it will return downward
- Return trajectory can be altered by repositioning Zelda
- Recall animation stalls Zelda
- Placing animation causes fastfall, can be used similar to diamond diving
- Camera keeps Din on screen, so you know where it is
- Din notifies you when it is about to explode
- Din can travel through the stage on return, surprising opponents
- Nobody knows what to do yet

Cons:
- It comes out super fast at first, preventing close placements
- Commanded explosions are pathetically weak
- Return hitbox is very weak
- You can only have 1 din
- Placing a din while you have one out recalls the old one. This is a problem when the Din has gone offscreen, as you have no idea if the Din is still out there or not. Maybe there is a pattern and this will just take getting used to, but for now it is infuriating
- Din placement far away is super slow, making it unable to be used as a ranged projectile
- return trajectory is decided preemptively, therefore inflexible
- Placing causes fastfall, so it cannot be used to aid recovery as easily
- Camera keeps Din on screen, so opponent is reminded of it
- Din notifies opponent when it is about to explode, warning them
- Din may travel through stage on return, offering no zone of control
- placing Din is more rigid, cannot travel straight up or down
- fastfall when placing Din prevents horizontal drifting for approach/retreat during placement
- hitting with dins in any way causes a cooldown on the manual explosion ability
- Absorbing Dins does not remove the Dins, allowing for multiple absorptions under some circumstanes (NEEDS FURTHER TESTING)
- Din is clanked by shield
- Nobody knows what to do yet. This means opponents cannot be predicted and Zeldas are ineffective


I tried to list things in a similar order in both parts, to demonstrate that all pros are also cons and vice versa. A few things are purely pro or purely con, while some of the "pros" or "cons" are really unimportant. I can sort these into a better format later, but I just wanted to get everything written while I remember it.

Please note the original post underwent edits, which you can find a list of in the his original post on page 8 in the thread.

This list is quite comprehensive for the new Din's, with both its pros and cons. However, that's not all 4tlas had to say. Now that we have a general list, we can get into more intricacies of the move. 4tlas notes a little strategy for the move.

FT: The single din is a lot faster now.
A good strategy with it is to get the din behind the opponent for comboing into, or to hit the opponent from behind on its way back allowing for the disruption of the opponents strings. What the din does when it is behind your opponent: He will have a din behind him which is going to make him want to get the hell away from it asap leaving him to run to you, so you gotta be ready for combat.

Tying in with more ways on how to use Din's and general stratgies, LonVeon notes:

Risking a larger dins seems like a poor choice. I think it should be, at worst, a trade-off for positioning. If there is a chance they can hit you while you're charging a dins you should just set it down at its current state. The immediacy and duration of your din's defensive value scales inversely with time spent placing due to the charging time loss, further distance, and speed loss that occurs when placing larger din. The opposites then hold true, the larger dins lose out on helping you immediately but will stick around. Thanks to the prolonged duration, size of affected area at a given moment, and increased damage/KB, I would say generally speaking the efficacy of the dins scale with time placing. However, against faster matchups I think the difficulty of controlling a max din while spacing properly is much more difficult and in these cases the large, thin spaces controlled by the speediness of smaller dins can be more useful in neutral. This makes sense in theory, although I can hardly say I have anything remotely resembling an understanding of what dins vs who. Not tested so who knows.
(not tested) On fast-fallers a small din can knock them off the ground just enough that they get landing lag before exiting hitstun, potentially giving you a slightly larger time window with which to capitalize.

In juggling situations I find large dins to be more effective if it is going beneath the opponent. Good KO potential with side-B burst and can force a recovery option out of the opponent. Mixing up the timing with bursts can also force movement and limit their options in recovery, giving you an easier or more damaging punish. Remember to watch the opponent with smaller dins while they're being juggled too. There have been a few instances in which I noticed the small halos from a double jump underneath my opponent right before they get tapped by a small dins. Easy, fat juggles ensue.

Who wrote this:I don't know why I never thought of this before, in 3.02, but throw a Din's behind you, so that they would get hit by it if they DI d-throw properly. This is much easier to do in 3.5, due to the increased speed. When that Din's is sitting there, they are more likely to DI d-throw incorrectly, so you get your follow-ups. In my opinion, Zelda gets her best hit confirms off of poorly DI'd d-throw, so I'm going to have to try this out

Recall/Recalling Din's

4tlas also provides some information on the recall function of Din's:

The din does not come straight back to you, and avoids going through platforms yet will go through the stage. Just set it up at head level so that it wont go through the stage and can pressure the opponent on its way back to you. I see no purpose of the multi exploding on the way back because its hard to time for now and doesn't really add that much dmg or knockback, but someone will probably do something good with it

Here's some more facts on recall, provided by Kaeldiar:

Here's what I've discovered so far. The direction that Din's is moving at when it stops is the same direction that it will initially move when it returns. As far as which way it BENDS, it will bend towards Zelda so that it reaches her in the shortest amount of time (or at least it will try to do so). Caveat: If you throw out a Din's horizontally, and stay on the ground, it will bend down.

ADDITIONALLY, you can see which direction your Din's will begin travel while it is flashing. See the red line on Din's here? It's going out at about a 40 degree angle. This line appears for a brief amount of time, every time it flashes. This line is a "comet trail" that indicates the direction of travel. In this case, Din's will move down and to the left, 180 degrees opposite that line. After that, it will then bend according to Zelda's position, but this gives you a starting point.

Hitboxes on return

If the return hitbox collides with an enemy, it cannot hit that enemy again until it is detonated. "Collide" means if they clank, shield, or get hit by it! So even if they clank your Din's, you can "refresh" the hitbox with a manual detonation. The detonation itself will hit them, and the return hitbox will also be able to hit them again! I don't know how this works with teams. I haven't tested it yet.

Miscellaneous Notes
Here is some miscellaneous info LonVeon provided that I'm actually surprised didn't get talked about more: how to use Din's during edgeguarding and respawn. We'll undoubedtly revisit Din's Fire in the future, so I'm hoping we can flesh this section out more then!

In edgeguarding and respawn situations it's a judgment call. Din size decision making in edgeguarding situations depends on the timing of when you start to place, where the opponent is, what recovery options they have remaining, and how quickly they can move in the air. Unless you're right there to capitalize, I like using smaller dins to interrupt their patterns and then going out and intercepting them with aerials. I use Fair/bair/dair for kills and nair is great for area denial. Something like din -> drop off -> jump back to the edge while nairing is fantastic for stuffing recovery options with poor offensive hitboxes like firefox.

Negative Aspects of Din's Fire
While Din's is still a solid move in 3.5 it does have its fallbacks. It may not always be the best to put a Din's in front of you, as WHOEVER SAID THAT notes:

blablabla

Also, because Din's an energy projectile it can be absorbed by characters like Mr. Game and Watch and Ness. Because of the unique recall properties of Din's Fire, the projectile can actually be absorbed multiple times. WHOEVER SAID THIS goes into more detail.

Who said this:
Characters who can absorb the dins can absorb it twice (and probably 3, 4, 5...etc) under some circumstances, but the Din does not actually disappear no matter when they do it.
A MORE GENERAL NOTE

4tlas also notes why this happens, and why you absolutely must be wary against characters who can absorb the move.

It seems that as long as the absorption move or the dins is refreshed between the connections, this happens. It was very difficult to reproduce, so I will leave it vague for now, but it does happen.
Conveniently (but frustratingly) my training buddies play Ness and GW respectively. Back when I didn't train with them I could destroy them with Dins because they were afraid, but now...well lets just say that PSI Magnet heals more damage than Dins do, and bucket does more damage and knockback than din->LK would ever do. And now they can do it twice! /cry

When using Din's against these characters, you have to weigh the costs of using it. If you use it haphazardly, you give Ness and Lucas free heals, negate the damage against Mr. Game & Watch and give him free charges for Oil Panic, which cannot (?) be reflected.

In conclusion, A NICE SUMMARY



Threads that the ToW guide has used as references:

I'll put these here when the time comes!

 

[Deep2]

Zelda has 2 chaingrabs against spacies. 1: Her upthrow and 2: Her downthrow, however her dthrow spacegrab is dependent on bad DI.

 

[Plebeian]

this doesn't really work when your opponent is smart but sometimes when people are camping behind my Side-Bs, I transform into sheik to make them automatically detonate in their face

its pretty funny, but very limited use

 

[otheusrex]

this doesn't work if you hit their shield, but jab> dash> pretty much anything is garaunteed if you successfully hit with her jab

 

[TimeSmash]

Updating this soon! Probably Sunday!

MOAR IDEAS.

If we got some detailed things like how to use Teledash effectively, that's be great!

 

[TimeSmash]

Shamless bump to inform you all this week we will be talking all about UpB and Teledashing!!! Get to it

 

[PhantasyStar]

Teledashing helps me get to certain areas faster...It works well against a campy player in my experience.

 

[TimeSmash]

Zelda's teleport may not look like it, but has some serious startup lag. It has a weak beginning hitbox you will almost never hit with, but its ending hitbox (after you reappear) is great. Rarely, you can use the beginning hitbox and predict your opponent's DI and then hit them accordingly with the ending hitbox. The ending hitbox has a burn effect, and is therefore been dubbed "Teleburn" by the community, but I am not sure what this attack is outprioritized by. It can be shielded quite easily and your opponent can then grab you so it's best not to be too aggressive with it.

Here are some things I know about Teledashing.

The way to do it is super easy. You just need to wavedash out of Zelda's Up B. I'm just saying this as I'll probably quote/copy this sometime later to put in the OP. Teledashing is not exactly easy to approach with, since the loss of the Teleburn hitbox means that your opponent won't suffer any immediate damage. One of the most common things to do out of Teledash is a grab, or another Teledash to mess with opponents.

Someone correct me if any of this info is wrong.

AND Zelda mains such as @ DarkStarStorm @WhiteLightnin and @ jtm94 GET POSTING ON THIS PLOX

 

[BJN39]

Well, one thing that might not be much of a "mindgame" but can be noted about FW is that the aerial version uses a very low (Near 25 degree) angle for the disappear hit-box, couple with the large hit-box (covering her whole body) can be used to > Run off a ledge > FW and hit the opponent > instant ledge grab after hit-box. I suspect it would be effective on people with fast falling speed, and short(er) recoveries. It can also work if you jump out farther and FW back and hitting them with the disappear hit-box as well.

Also, scaring your opponent into thinking you are gonna "No-poof" FW the ledge to edgehog when they're recovering by jumping and using FW to the ground, (and NOT ledge grab FWing) making them recover high, or above the ledge, while you can get a better opportunity to punish them. I've seen Zhime using this technique occasionally.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Well, one thing that might not be much of a "mindgame" but can be noted about FW is that the aerial version uses a very low (Near 25 degree) angle for the disappear hit-box, couple with the large hit-box (covering her whole body) can be used to > Run off a ledge > FW and hit the opponent > instant ledge grab after hit-box. I suspect it would be effective on people with fast falling speed, and short(er) recoveries. It can also work if you jump out farther and FW back and hitting them with the disappear hit-box as well.

Also, scaring your opponent into thinking you are gonna "No-poof" FW the ledge to edgehog when they're recovering by jumping and using FW to the ground, (and NOT ledge grab FWing) making them recover high, or above the ledge, while you can get a better opportunity to punish them. I've seen Zhime using this technique occasionally.

I need to try this for myself.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Aerial FW to grab ledge is really nice if you're in the right position for an edge guard. I've started using it in my doubles matches, coordinating with my partner to guard high while I teleport low to edge hog, and it can lead to some quick KOs. My two cents on FW to edge hog: 1) You can't use a grounded FW to grab ledge, you almost always have to jump first. If you try grounded FW to the ledge on a stage like final destination you'll just kill yourself. However, 2) You CAN do a grounded FW to grab ledge IF you are on a platform. This is where some awesome options come into play, especially in doubles. On a stage like battlefield you can teleport from either the left or right platform directly to their respective ledges. I'm fairly certain you can do this from any position on the platform, but someone should correct me if I'm wrong. If you don't feel like committing to the edge hog you can always cancel your teledash to the stage below, or teledash to the opposite platform to re-position and set Dins.

A fun way to practice FW to edge hog is simply; grab ledge> full jump up> FW back to the edge. Do it over and over at different jump heights to get it every time. If you want to increase your control of platform to platform teleportation, try the same method above adding; waveland on platform> teledash to opposite platform> FW to ledge grab. Battlefield is a great stage for practicing this.

EDIT: Grammar...

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Aerial FW to grab ledge is really nice if you're in the right position for an edge guard. I've started using it in my doubles matches, coordinating with my partner to guard high while I teleport low to edge hog, and it can lead to some quick KOs. My two cents on FW to edge hog: 1) You can't use a grounded FW to grab ledge, you almost always have to jump first. If you try grounded FW to the ledge on a stage like final destination you'll just kill yourself. However, 2) You CAN do a grounded FW to grab ledge IF you are on a platform. This is where some awesome options come into play, especially in doubles. On a stage like battlefield you can teleport from either the left or right platform directly to their respective ledges. I'm fairly certain you can do this from any position on the platform, but someone should correct me if I'm wrong. If you don't feel like committing to the edge hog you can always cancel your teledash to the stage below, or teledash to the opposite platform to re-position and set Dins.

A fun way to practice FW to edge hog is simply; grab ledge> full jump up> FW back to the edge. Do it over and over at different jump heights to get it every time. If you want to increase your control of platform to platform teleportation, try the same method above adding; waveland on platform> teledash to opposite platform> FW to ledge grab. Battlefield is a great stage for practicing this.

EDIT: Grammar...

Using the smoke ball to track your movement is the best way to practice the teledash. There is another way to do good edge guards with FW; teledashing off the edge of the stage and hitting them with a fair or Nayru's Love is good. Or using the disappearance hitbox it gimp (not advisable). I really need to try this but I've seen the uses of a wavebounced Nayru to launch yourself back at the source of knockback, catching them offguard. I should post that in the Zelda Balance and MU learning.

 

[jtm94]

You can indeed teleport straight to the ledge while grounded on any level, you just need to know the distance, and let go of the joystick so she grabs the ledge.

Wavebouncing is something I cam curious about and is making me wonder the possible applications it could provide.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

You can indeed teleport straight to the ledge while grounded on any level, you just need to know the distance, and let go of the joystick so she grabs the ledge.

Wavebouncing is something I cam curious about and is making me wonder the possible applications it could provide.

The normal wavebounce has hardly any use. The Recoil Special does however.

 

[TimeSmash]

I just remembered that I had data somewhere about Zelda teleporting to the edge and sweetspotting it (or not, but getting a second jump). I will look for it later and post it here, but does anyone know which stages are Apex legal? That would really reduce the time needed

 

[jtm94]

Apex stages are the bottom 2 rows.

 

[TimeSmash]

Why thank you.

I might extend this topic to next Sunday as I want a little more for the OP before I move onto the next subject. If anyone has pictures or frame data for Zelda's UpB it would be greatly appreciated. Links, too, just let me know who to give credit

 

[otheusrex]

Apex stages are the bottom 2 rows.

plus dracula's castle for counterpicks

 

[SmashTheCstik]

FW spam ledge hog works well. Drop, jump, fw. Do it quick enough and 1 of 2 things will happen: they get the hit box or you get the ledge

 

[jtm94]

Dracula's castle was banned for Apex.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Squii the Fish and I were fighting and I found that Teledashing on FD is a stupid idea.

 

[TimeSmash]

Before I close this up on Sunday, I would also like to ask why on some stages like Wario Ware or Yoshi's Story, I teleport from below the stage to sweetspot the ledge, end up reappearing back where I started the teleport and then fall to my death? Someone said it was like getting stuck in the wall or something, but I would like to get a clear definition again before I update the OP. I understood it then, but my mind is foggy now. Thanks!

Also THANK YOU EVERYONE for contributing to this!!

 

[Blondie.]

Zelda can't teleport up walls if you hold up. It's a glitch.

Basically, what you do in that situation is press up to activate the up b, and then put the control stick back to neutral. This will make it so you go straight up without getting stuck.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Before I close this up on Sunday, I would also like to ask why on some stages like Wario Ware or Yoshi's Story, I teleport from below the stage to sweetspot the ledge, end up reappearing back where I started the teleport and then fall to my death? Someone said it was like getting stuck in the wall or something, but I would like to get a clear definition again before I update the OP. I understood it then, but my mind is foggy now. Thanks!

Also THANK YOU EVERYONE for contributing to this!!

http://smashboards.com/threads/zeldas-up-b.348537/
I also found that the DIRECTION you waveland after up bing can make or break you.

 

[TimeSmash]

If anyone has any frame data on UpB, that would be ideal. At some point (probs the weekend) I will finish compiling my stage data for the UpB to instagrabbing edges. If anyone else has any ideas pertaining to Zelda's UpB, such as how it can possibly help you descend safer when above enemies or using to approach, I'm all ears

 

[SmashTheCstik]

Zelda can't teleport up walls if you hold up. It's a glitch.

Basically, what you do in that situation is press up to activate the up b, and then put the control stick back to neutral. This will make it so you go straight up without getting stuck.

Thank you for this... i always got stuck on walls!

 

[TimeSmash]

Updated this! The next week, starting with today, 2/25/14 we will be talking ALL about Din's Fire!!!!

 

[DwightDL]

Need a conformation. To teledash you need to be grounded when you begin the up b yeah?

 

[TimeSmash]

That is absolutely correct.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Using the Recoil Special is a great lure for getting someone sandwiched between dins and you. Say you're up against Fox, you run towards him and jump, he thinks that he can punish that jump so he runs in to get you with u-smash. You Recoil and retreat while placing a dins behind him to harbor his retreat. There isn't much use for her normal side b reversal though, besides plain and simple retreat.

 

[BJN39]

@ TimeSmash ; Just thought I'd mention, in the section for Farore's wind, you accidentally have jtm94 as "JTM9".

I'm lovin' this thread though, keep it up!

I'll try to contribute something of worth soon on Din's Fire. ^ ^

 

[WhiteCrow]

Ah Din's... Where do you even start? The combo potential? The ability to protect territory like a Marvel Assist? Wave-bounce potential? Edge guard set ups? Free off grabs?

Nah, I want to start with control and kill potential. Learn to wiggle those Din's! Curved approaches can throw off your opponents movement and allow for sneakier placements at whatever height you desire. Din's move in all directions at the same speed, use that to make your angles consistently unpredictable. A good way to practice this is by trying to mimic Mewtwo's shadow ball movement with a Din in training mode. While this might not be practical for every approach it will give you amazing control of your Din's. It also allows you to weave fire balls through platform heavy stages, like Battlefield and Dracula's Castle in doubles, without miss-placing them on the platforms. If you do this after good DI from a near fatal hit you can even get closer to the stage with a wave-bounce and then set up a clutch Din before using your second jump. But I'll leave the wave-bounce shenanigans to someone more competent.

Now, onto kill potential. I'm pretty sure Din's comes in 3 different sizes depending on the distance the Din travels. I've found curving in large arks to be the best way to set up third level Din's (sometimes out of frame by curving it like a rainbow, but it's really punishable if you don't have a teammate). I know it's not the most practical move but, if left unattended, a level 3 Din can be as dangerous as Snake's C4. I did some tests on Final Destination to figure out kill percents with level 3 Din's (can't account for DI since I used lvl 3 CPU's. No one wants to help with testing...). Most consistent results so far: Jiggly Puff 65%, Marth 105%, Peach 88%, Mario 91%, Shiek 95%. Pretty standard kill percents, but they get even lower when you factor in Din's placed on platforms or high off stage. Level 3's explosion hitbox deserves some respect. Level 1 and 2 aren't useless either. Their explosions can offer that little push you need to shield stab someone into a setup. When your opponent gets caught in shield stun while shielding a burst you have a little bit of time to get away or re-position.

It's also pretty fun hiding the Din's in weird spots on stages, like Sky World's clouds or behind pillars on Skyloft. Standing on your mines can be pretty hilarious too since your skirt covers it completely. Wave dash back punish. Friendlies are a good place to practice Din angles.

DISCLAIMER: I am by no means a master of Zelda. If I make any mistakes please let me know so I can edit.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Ah Din's... Where do you even start? The combo potential? The ability to protect territory like a Marvel Assist? Wave-bounce potential? Edge guard set ups? Free off grabs?

Nah, I want to start with control and kill potential. Learn to wiggle those Din's! Curved approaches can throw off your opponents movement and allow for sneakier placements at whatever height you desire. Din's move in all directions at the same speed, use that to make your angles consistently unpredictable. A good way to practice this is by trying to mimic Mewtwo's shadow ball movement with a Din in training mode. While this might not be practical for every approach it will give you amazing control of your Din's. It also allows you to weave fire balls through platform heavy stages, like Battlefield and Dracula's Castle in doubles, without miss-placing them on the platforms. If you do this after good DI from a near fatal hit you can even get closer to the stage with a wave-bounce and then set up a clutch Din before using your second jump. But I'll leave the wave-bounce shenanigans to someone more competent.

Now, onto kill potential. I'm pretty sure Din's comes in 3 different sizes depending on the distance the Din travels. I've found curving in large arks to be the best way to set up third level Din's (sometimes out of frame by curving it like a rainbow, but it's really punishable if you don't have a teammate). I know it's not the most practical move but, if left unattended, a level 3 Din can be as dangerous as Snake's C4. I did some tests on Final Destination to figure out kill percents with level 3 Din's (can't account for DI since I used lvl 3 CPU's. No one wants to help with testing...). Most consistent results so far: Jiggly Puff 65%, Marth 105%, Peach 88%, Mario 91%, Shiek 95%. Pretty standard kill percents, but they get even lower when you factor in Din's placed on platforms or high off stage. Level 3's explosion hitbox deserves some respect. Level 1 and 2 aren't useless either. Their explosions can offer that little push you need to shield stab someone into a setup. When your opponent gets caught in shield stun while shielding a burst you have a little bit of time to get away or re-position.

It's also pretty fun hiding the Din's in weird spots on stages, like Sky World's clouds or behind pillars on Skyloft. Standing on your mines can be pretty hilarious too since your skirt covers it completely. Wave dash back punish. Friendlies are a good place to practice Din angles.

DISCLAIMER: I am by no means a master of Zelda. If I make any mistakes please let me know so I can edit.

Against Marios I set up a dins under Zelda and actually defend it against fireballs, then when he punishes my grounded Nayru's with a grab he get's hit by dins and then I can get in and stop his firecamp.
Advise for the Ganon MU, never put dins on the ground and think that you're safe, you aren't. Ganondorf can catch you by surprise by down bing and it goes right through dins. What you do to be safe is place dins about at the level of Ganon's leading leg when he uses down b then it'll clash and you can get in with teledash or something else.

Very situational but fun and worth mentioning. A use for dair. Place dins on the ground, it doesn't matter which size, They try to jump over the dins, you hit them with dair and they go straight into it as it explodes! Even if you get the timing wrong I believe (not 100% percent sure on this) that if they hit it before it explodes you can hit them with nair then u-smash. and if they DI and miss it and tech you might be able to hit them with fair/bair. It's pretty flashy and very satisfying.

 

[TimeSmash]

Here for like two seconds before I drown myself in education again.

Fun fact that everyone knows, the longer Din's is out, the bigger the hitbox will be for both the explosion and for the stationary flame. That's why it's so important to loop the hell out of your Din's!\

As always, thanks everyone for replying

Edit: Please refresh me on Recoil Specials.

Double Edit: @ WhiteCrow if you could get more percentages like that that would be ideal! If anyone has pictures of the difference in sizes of Din's "ranks", please link them to me, put them on here, or inbox me them.

Also, a weird situational use. If you set Din's up and then get grabbed, and are pretty sure the resulting explosion will hit your opponent, it can be advantageous to let the opponent pummel you and let the Din's explode, hurting them and freeing you in the process. It's worth mentioning because not fighting out of a grab is uncommon, but obviously this technqiue would be intensely risky at high percents!

 

[WhiteCrow]

I could test more on level 3 Din's kill percents, but I should restate that I don't think it's the most reliable or viable kill option. Though, Zhime always seems to make it look like one haha. Maybe I'll keep the testing to three or four stages for simplicity. Any stage suggestions?

 

[Pika_thunder]

I could test more on level 3 Din's kill percents, but I should restate that I don't think it's the most reliable or viable kill option. Though, Zhime always seems to make it look like one haha. Maybe I'll keep the testing to three or four stages for simplicity. Any stage suggestions?

Dreamland, FD, battlefield, yoshi's (melee)

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Here for like two seconds before I drown myself in education again.

Fun fact that everyone knows, the longer Din's is out, the bigger the hitbox will be for both the explosion and for the stationary flame. That's why it's so important to loop the hell out of your Din's!\

As always, thanks everyone for replying

Edit: Please refresh me on Recoil Specials.

Double Edit: @ WhiteCrow if you could get more percentages like that that would be ideal! If anyone has pictures of the difference in sizes of Din's "ranks", please link them to me, put them on here, or inbox me them.

Also, a weird situational use. If you set Din's up and then get grabbed, and are pretty sure the resulting explosion will hit your opponent, it can be advantageous to let the opponent pummel you and let the Din's explode, hurting them and freeing you in the process. It's worth mentioning because not fighting out of a grab is uncommon, but obviously this technqiue would be intensely risky at high percents!

To perform a Recoil Special[1] with the B-Stick setup, jump forward and immediately move the C-stick in the opposite direction of travel. This will perform the Side Special in midair, and immediately bounce the fighter backwards. This can add some range to the Side Special while spacing the fighter further away from their opponent. Up specials and down specials can also be performed like this, by moving the C-Stick between that direction and the diagonal direction behind the direction of travel. That is, between up and up-left diagonal for an up special if moving right, for example. The Standard Special can also be performed by moving the C-Stick directly diagonal in the opposite direction of travel (eg. a Standard Special while moving right, the C-Stick must be moved up-left or down-left). Note that this will only perform a Special move as if the B button were tapped once. To continue to hold the attack (to charge it or to have an attack like Din's Fire move further), it is recommended that L, R, or Z be assigned to perform specials. This way, while the thumb is being used to hit the C-Stick, one of the fingers can press and hold the assigned trigger, allowing the special to continue.
TruDat.

To perform this technique without the c-stick, the player must jump forward, do a special backwards, then immediately smash the control stick or D-pad forward. This will make the character turn twice, and will create the bound. Changing their momentum from that of forward to backward yet still doing the special in their original direction.

 

[TimeSmash]

Awesome! I'll try to see if I can find a video link of it being used in nifty situations.

I also kind of think Din's is a good way to make Zelda's descent safer if she is above an opponent.

 

[WhiteCrow]

I also kind of think Din's is a good way to make Zelda's descent safer if she is above an opponent.

Just be very careful about what height you start the animation. Her animation while performing air Din has more end lag than the grounded one, but you can do wave bounce stuff with the air Din. You can get punished hard, and potentially screw up Din's placements, if you try and place them while getting juggled/being in range of any aerial. Use them sparingly and practice those curved Din's so your placement always counts.

 

[Kaeldiar]

First off, I love this thread. I picked Zelda back up because I had more time to experiment with P:M, and these tricks are REALLY boosting my play.

Now on topic, Din's serves at least 3 purposes that I see.

1. Dealing damage
You can put Din's right on top of your opponent and damage him instantly. More likely, however, you'll put it in a place that he'll likely bump into, and you'll get a bit of damage and cause some hitstun that you can use to start a combo.

2. Protection/Forcing Approaches
When recovering, Din's can be placed near the edge of the stage to prevent your opponent from easily edgeguarding you. You can set them around yourself to make it dangerous to approach you. You can also force them to approach you in ways that they don't want. Set them on the ground to force Spacies to jump into up-smash, or in the air to keep away those pesky Falco d-airs. Din's forces your opponent to make moves they don't want to make. I think we'd probably all benefit from watching Rolex play. He has crazy mind games as Snake that could probably transfer over well to Zelda. He controls his spacing by limiting the field with mines. It's scary. I can see us doing the same with Din's.

3. Extending combos
This is the hardest for me to use right. I imagine it just takes time though. What you can do is place the Din's so that the knockback from your moves launches them into the placed fireball, which knocks them back towards you for another strike.


I mostly use Din's when I'm coming back to clear the ledge. I'll put it so it hovers above the stage near the ledge, or right where they would be hanging if they were holding the ledge. Usually the first, but it's nice to mix things up if the first doesn't bother them. Additionally, if they tend to play a bit campy, I'll set up a few Din's, then try to put one on top of them. It almost never hits, but it forces them to move. With the other Din's set up, that limits where they can move, and typically makes it easy to land a hit or two.