Q&A Triforce of Courage: Princess Zelda's Q&A/Support Thread

[Downdraft]

Let this post be a shoutout to all current Project M Zelda players for supporting her in 3.5. This thread will attempt to answer any questions that Zelda players have related to the character. I will manage this thread and include frequently asked questions. Any question that can be considered useful will be added to the opening posts.

To any current or prospective Zelda main, summon the courage to get help here. Zelda needs greater representation at the higher levels; together, we can make her a force to be reckoned with.

The Triforce
Gather the remaining parts of the Triforce in order to keep your knowledge and skills up to date!
Each week the PM Zelda community will discuss an aspect of her game such as Din's fire. Contribute your knowledge and strategies and learn from others. Together, we will explore the depths of Zelda's tools.
Triforce of Wisdom: Mindgames, Applied ATs, and Strategies (A COMMUNITY EFFORT!)

Got any flashy Zelda combos, traps, setups, or kills? Post them here.
Triforce of Power: Show us your swagger

Useful Links
Debug mode is a nice appetizer for this thread. Come here to learn the intricacies of Zelda.
Zelda: Hitboxes and Frame Data [3.5]

Need help with a matchup? Trade advice in the matchup anthology!
Zelda Matchup Anthology

Introduce yourself and relax with the Zeldas. Divert more serious matters to the appropriate topic.
Zelda Social Thread

Discuss Zelda's balance here. Propose and defend buffs, nerfs, or tradeoffs she needs.
I Think Zelda Needs Changes

Post your 3.5 Zelda results no matter how big or small.
Temple of Time: Report Your Tournament Results Here!

Discuss edgeguarding techniques and strategies. The Triforce of Power complements this well.
Get Off My Stage! A Guide to Edgeguarding With 3.5 Zelda

Share and receive feedback regarding your recorded matches.
Zelda Video Discussion

Kick back and discuss the little, non-game-changing things you'd like Zelda to have.
Non-Moveset/Property "Bonus" Things You Would Want to See in Zelda

Visit this thread to learn Zelda's fundamentals. The Triforce of Courage complements this well.
A Guide To The Powerful Princess Zelda (3.5 Updated!)

Frequently Asked Questions
Learn how to deal with characters baiting you just outside your range.
Dealing with pressure/dash dancing

 

[Downdraft]

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[Downdraft]

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[4tlas]

Can anyone think of a convenient way to reduce transform time as a player? I know we can load Zelda and Sheik into the other player slots and suicide them, but thats rather inconvenient in a tournament setting. Can we set their stock count to 0 or something using stock handicaps?

 

[4tlas]

Another question: in character-locked events (crew battles, for example) is transforming typically allowed? I would assume yes. If I were to play All-star and I am required to play multiple characters, would Zelda/Sheik be considered 1 character? In other words, can I pick Zelda for a stock then pick Sheik for a stock but transform, immediately or otherwise? I would assume no.

 

[GMaster171]

For the latter question its probably up to the local TO or the other player. I personally wouldn't care about someone selecting Sheik+Zelda to use one of them twice, but I'v heard others who would ban it.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Another question: in character-locked events (crew battles, for example) is transforming typically allowed? I would assume yes. If I were to play All-star and I am required to play multiple characters, would Zelda/Sheik be considered 1 character? In other words, can I pick Zelda for a stock then pick Sheik for a stock but transform, immediately or otherwise? I would assume no.

I have always been able to transform freely, but I agree with GMaster that it should be up to the discretion of the TO. All my TOs have considered Zelda/Sheik as 1 character, and I personally believe it should be that way...but if the TO wants to run them as 2 separate characters, I don't think I'd argue with him.

 

[BJN39]

Can anyone think of a convenient way to reduce transform time as a player? I know we can load Zelda and Sheik into the other player slots and suicide them, but thats rather inconvenient in a tournament setting. Can we set their stock count to 0 or something using stock handicaps?

Actually on this point I know there has to be a way. If PM isn't already using it, I know Balanced Brawl had some special way of vastly improving the transform speed. It was something along the lines of both characters being loaded at the start of the battle instead of just the one you start as. I don't remember for sure but I think there was something about the textures being involved, like, if there was a tiny texture edit it would need to load the connected character even if you started as the other or something. But IDK if P:M already did this, and it just wasn't as fast as I remember.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Actually on this point I know there has to be a way. If PM isn't already using it, I know Balanced Brawl had some special way of vastly improving the transform speed. It was something along the lines of both characters being loaded at the start of the battle instead of just the one you start as. I don't remember for sure but I think there was something about the textures being involved, like, if there was a tiny texture edit it would need to load the connected character even if you started as the other or something. But IDK if P:M already did this, and it just wasn't as fast as I remember.

@ Zerudahime get your butt in here and tell us what you did

But actually...he was a key figure in improving transform speed. Loading both characters at the start of a battle works, but it causes trouble in doubles, iirc. I know that they re-organized some of the files to make it load faster, but I'm not sure if anything else can be done, other than just playing Netplay

 

[4tlas]

As a TO, the way I look at Zelda/Sheik is that transform is part of their moveset, and the other character's moveset is also included in that. Thus, in a character locked crew battle, I would allow players to transform. But that also means that in an All-Star battle where you are forced to pick multiple characters, I do not think Zelda and Sheik should count separately, unless the player does not transform

As for the load times, I understand that it is difficult to hack the code in a way that loads the data preemptively, and though I want this to be improved for future releases, it doesn't really help right now. I'm looking for workarounds the players can do themselves in a tournament setting, and I'm not the type of player that is going to ask to suicide a 3p Zelda and 4p Sheik just to get instant transforms... so are there any convenient workarounds right now?

 

[luxingo]

When should you footstool? Or is there always a better option?

 

[Downdraft]

When should you footstool? Or is there always a better option?

I forget about footstools. Your opponent wouldn't expect it, so perhaps it'd be nice to catch them off guard and setup for a more advantageous move next time.

 

[4tlas]

I don't think there are any good opportunities to footstool as Zelda. Essentially, since new footstool doesnt work on shield, the only useful times to footstool are to a) cause a tech chase or b) gimp offstage out of a combo (since if they can act they will just hit/avoid/recover).

For opportunity A, Zelda would jump too high off of the opponent to get back in time for the tech chase. She would be better off using dair or nair.

For opportunity B, the opponent must remain close enough to Zelda during the combo to be footstooled but have enough hitstun to be footstooled while also being off the stage. This window is so tiny I think it would be better to dair or fair/bair in all scenarios.


Even back when they affected shields and thus there was a C scenario: empty hop to threaten shield then footstool to cause techchase, Zelda still had better options. You still would jump too high and nair would let you cross up the shield while possibly shield poking. Dair would do plenty of shield damage and let you cross up as well.

 

[Kaeldiar]

When should you footstool? Or is there always a better option?

When edgeguarding Yoshi. As Zelda, that's basically the only time you should ever do it. She doesn't have good footstool set-ups or follow-ups...but EVERYONE benefits from footstooling Yoshi

 

[luxingo]

When edgeguarding Yoshi. As Zelda, that's basically the only time you should ever do it. She doesn't have good footstool set-ups or follow-ups...but EVERYONE benefits from footstooling Yoshi

Yeah, that's the only time I've used it so far. Just wondering if it would be helpful against other characters.

 

[4tlas]

Oh yeah totally forgot about Yoshi. I usually just Dins to force the double jump armor then intercept his recovery with lightning kick, but I guess you can footstool as a mixup.

 

[Zerudahime]

transforms loading times are as optimized as they can be.
balance brawl did something similar to what i did, but not the same.
the transform is loaded through fitzelda/sheik.pcs and pacs
loading them via SD is the fastest method without causing memory issues etc.

It cant be faster than it is now unless extensive work is done to it, which is why there are only 8 frames of endlag on reappear.
that 8 frames leaves it punishable but still close enough to melee just timing is slightly different and the punish window is slightly different.

 

[Vitriform]

Is it just me, or is Yoshi's Island (Brawl) just an overall terrible stage for Zelda? It seems like it has no redeeming qualities for her whatsoever.

1) The sloped terrain makes it really difficult to accurately Telecancel without either misjudging your distance or getting stuck in endlag.

2) The platform moves in intervals, making it a toss-up as to whether you'll be able to Telecancel through it or not. It also seems like it interrupts your combos in a lot of matchups while giving characters like Marth or Dedede the ability to endlessly Utilt/Usmash you through it.

3) The steep slopes near the edges make it tough to sweetspot kicks on opponents who just barely miss a ledge sweetspot. Yes, you have other options (Dsmash and Fsmash), but it's still annoying.

4) The support ghosts can save characters with bad recoveries while doing almost to nothing to help yours.

5) The side blastzones are far and the top blastzone is fairly low.

I hate having to waste one of my bans on this stage every match just because I don't like it. Is there any way to make fighting on this stage as Zelda more bearable, or should I just auto-ban it every time?

 

[luxingo]

I agree that it's a terrible stage for Zelda, and I think it's fine to auto-ban it every time because the other stages aren't too bad. My typical stage bans are YI and GHZ or WW.

That said, I don't think it's too bad for her either. For those points you've made:

1) Hold diagonally down if you're going to telecancel and she won't telecancel in the air.
2) I think you can figure out the seesaw movement of the platform if you watch it for a while. Nair is also a great move to cover opponents on the platform.
3) Totally agree, and on top of that, dtilt's below-the-lip hitbox is weird here as well.
4) Not necessarily, because if opponents are forced to recover here, you can punish. And you can telecancel here as well.
5) Yep.

Also interested in reading what other people think about it.

 

[Downdraft]

I agree that it's a terrible stage for Zelda, and I think it's fine to auto-ban it every time because the other stages aren't too bad. My typical stage bans are YI and GHZ or WW.

That said, I don't think it's too bad for her either. For those points you've made:

1) Hold diagonally down if you're going to telecancel and she won't telecancel in the air.
2) I think you can figure out the seesaw movement of the platform if you watch it for a while. Nair is also a great move to cover opponents on the platform.
3) Totally agree, and on top of that, dtilt's below-the-lip hitbox is weird here as well.
4) Not necessarily, because if opponents are forced to recover here, you can punish. And you can telecancel here as well.
5) Yep.

Also interested in reading what other people think about it.

Isn't Green Hill Zone considered one of Zelda's best counterpick stages? You can find a lot of 3.5 footage of Zelda going there. Why don't you like it?

Also, I agree that Yoshi's Island sucks, but I wouldn't be so quick to autoban it because it sucks for other characters too. You've got to remember that there are 41 characters in this game. A few other characters are bound not to be as effective there too.

 

[Vitriform]

I agree that it's a terrible stage for Zelda, and I think it's fine to auto-ban it every time because the other stages aren't too bad. My typical stage bans are YI and GHZ or WW.

That said, I don't think it's too bad for her either. For those points you've made:

1) Hold diagonally down if you're going to telecancel and she won't telecancel in the air.
2) I think you can figure out the seesaw movement of the platform if you watch it for a while. Nair is also a great move to cover opponents on the platform.
3) Totally agree, and on top of that, dtilt's below-the-lip hitbox is weird here as well.
4) Not necessarily, because if opponents are forced to recover here, you can punish. And you can telecancel here as well.
5) Yep.

Also interested in reading what other people think about it.

Yeah, I'm aware of the diagonal and down trick, but doing this makes it, as I said, hard to judge the distances of your Telecancels. You now have to deal with 2 degrees of freedom (angle, timing) rather than 1 (timing). Your answers to my second and fourth questions are interesting. I'll definitely try more platform techchases with Nair on this stage and see how it works out for me, and I'll also experiment a bit with the support ghosts.

Also, like Downdraft said, why the hate for GHZ? I personally love the stage and think it's extremely favorable for Zelda in the majority of matchups. It's got short side blastzones (great for Lightning Kick, Fsmash, and Bthrow kills), a moderately high ceiling, a platform to escape camping/pressure (although you unfortunately cannot Telecancel through it), and a wide open space to chain throw/Usmash fast fallers when the platform isn't in the way. What don't you like about it?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Is it just me, or is Yoshi's Island (Brawl) just an overall terrible stage for Zelda? It seems like it has no redeeming qualities for her whatsoever.

1) The sloped terrain makes it really difficult to accurately Telecancel without either misjudging your distance or getting stuck in endlag.

2) The platform moves in intervals, making it a toss-up as to whether you'll be able to Telecancel through it or not. It also seems like it interrupts your combos in a lot of matchups while giving characters like Marth or Dedede the ability to endlessly Utilt/Usmash you through it.

3) The steep slopes near the edges make it tough to sweetspot kicks on opponents who just barely miss a ledge sweetspot. Yes, you have other options (Dsmash and Fsmash), but it's still annoying.

4) The support ghosts can save characters with bad recoveries while doing almost to nothing to help yours.

5) The side blastzones are far and the top blastzone is fairly low.

I hate having to waste one of my bans on this stage every match just because I don't like it. Is there any way to make fighting on this stage as Zelda more bearable, or should I just auto-ban it every time?

I ALWAYS ban YI, and I hate for exactly the reasons you mentioned. You hit all my complaints about it pretty spot on, haha!

I agree that it's a terrible stage for Zelda, and I think it's fine to auto-ban it every time because the other stages aren't too bad. My typical stage bans are YI and GHZ or WW.

I tend to actually like GHZ and WW, with the exception of a few MUs. GHZ has a high ceiling and low sides, which tends to favor Zelda, who kills off the side easier than she does off the top. WW is telecancel heaven.

Zelda is a Glass Cannon, and I find that GHZ, WW, and Yoshi's Story (Melee) turn her into a Paper Mortar: even more fragile, and even more likely to die, but even more likely to kill. In my experience, that tends to help Zelda, rather than hurt her. Her combos are significantly easier at low/mid%, so she gets kill set-ups easily.

 

[luxingo]

Yeah, I'm aware of the diagonal and down trick, but doing this makes it, as I said, hard to judge the distances of your Telecancels. You now have to deal with 2 degrees of freedom (angle, timing) rather than 1 (timing).

Also, like Downdraft said, why the hate for GHZ? I personally love the stage and think it's extremely favorable for Zelda in the majority of matchups.

I don't think adding that extra degree of freedom adds too much difficulty, especially after practising on that stage.

I don't 'hate' any stage; I'm fine with playing on YI even if it's my least favourite.

As for GHZ, I don't like it as much because of what you mentioned (platform that can't be teleported through, platform gets in the way of combos), as well as walls, which don't help her recovery like the lips of FD and SV do while assisting characters with walljumping abilities. Furthermore, I prefer large stages because it's easier to make Din's Fire set ups, capitalises on her amazing recovery, and encourages Zelda to gimp as well as do hard-hitting KOs.

And with regard to the glass cannon point, large stages favour high knockback scaling while small stages favour high base knockback, and those KO moves described before (LK, bthrow, fsmash) all have high knockback scaling (as well as high base knockback?), so it seems like a personal preference.

 

[BlackMamba]

Is it just me, or is Yoshi's Island (Brawl) just an overall terrible stage for Zelda? It seems like it has no redeeming qualities for her whatsoever.

1) The sloped terrain makes it really difficult to accurately Telecancel without either misjudging your distance or getting stuck in endlag.

2) The platform moves in intervals, making it a toss-up as to whether you'll be able to Telecancel through it or not. It also seems like it interrupts your combos in a lot of matchups while giving characters like Marth or Dedede the ability to endlessly Utilt/Usmash you through it.

3) The steep slopes near the edges make it tough to sweetspot kicks on opponents who just barely miss a ledge sweetspot. Yes, you have other options (Dsmash and Fsmash), but it's still annoying.

4) The support ghosts can save characters with bad recoveries while doing almost to nothing to help yours.

5) The side blastzones are far and the top blastzone is fairly low.

I hate having to waste one of my bans on this stage every match just because I don't like it. Is there any way to make fighting on this stage as Zelda more bearable, or should I just auto-ban it every time?

I haaaaaaaaate this stage for all those reasons. I usually don't like wasting a ban on it cuz I don't generally get counterpicked there. But when it happens I'm just like, 'uuuuuuuuuuuugh whyyyy.' I think it's her overall worst of all the stages that are generally legal in tourney.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Is it just me, or is Yoshi's Island (Brawl) just an overall terrible stage for Zelda? It seems like it has no redeeming qualities for her whatsoever.

I have been saying this for years, the stage is awful. I have a pact with many players (spacies especially) where I will let them perma ban Final D if I get to ban Brawl Yoshi's. Did you know Mango counter picks this stage over other smaller stages when he plays Project M? Even he knows it's stupid good for space animals.

 

[luxingo]

Should all dash grabs be jump-canceled grabs instead?

 

[4tlas]

Should all dash grabs be jump-canceled grabs instead?

I don't know if Zelda's is any faster standing than dashing, but I think she gets a speed boost when dashing so it should reach farther. So it isn't strictly better, at least.

 

[Downdraft]

Should all dash grabs be jump-canceled grabs instead?

Dash grab's duration is 9 frames longer. The answer to your question boils down to whether or not you want to extend farther if you whiff or are attacked and how many frames does it take to perform a jump cancel.

 

[Vitriform]

Should all dash grabs be jump-canceled grabs instead?

I've always wondered this myself. I can never decide which is better; I suppose it probably depends on situation. That said, I have great difficulty determining the respective niches of dash grab and JC grab with respect to one another, at least when playing Zelda.

 

[G13_Flux]

the difference with the range on her JC grab compared to her dash grab is actually kind of significant. even if you get the full length on the JC, (grabbing on frame 5 of jumpsquat), her dash grab still is a far better option in terms of range. you can see this by testing out lengths in the training room using the block units. i personally dash grab a decent amount since it gets you a lot of conversions you wouldnt have had, although i mix in the jc grabs when the range needed is a bit more marginal

 

[luxingo]

What's the fastest way to get onto the stage from the ledge?

 

[4tlas]

What's the fastest way to get onto the stage from the ledge?

I think its ledge drop -> double jump -> waveland, but ledgejump -> waveland may work? I just use basic getup lol

 

[luxingo]

I think its ledge drop -> double jump -> waveland, but ledgejump -> waveland may work? I just use basic getup lol

The second option you mentioned takes approximately the same time as the first and is much easier and safer, and I use that at <100%. The ledgejump takes twice as long though past 100% so I'm considering learning the first option.

However, the first option seems harder, requiring five inputs optimally (control stick away from stage, towards stage, jump, control stick diagonally down, airdodge), and can result in SDs as well, with Zelda's slower vertical jump.

 

[Vitriform]

The second option you mentioned takes approximately the same time as the first and is much easier and safer, and I use that at <100%. The ledgejump takes twice as long though past 100% so I'm considering learning the first option.

However, the first option seems harder, requiring five inputs optimally (control stick away from stage, towards stage, jump, control stick diagonally down, airdodge), and can result in SDs as well, with Zelda's slower vertical jump.

I typically opt for the first option, since I find it fairly easy to get long, consistent wavelands with it (disclaimer: I also hit control stick down rather than sideways to ledgedrop). I do rarely SD with it, but I can do it without flubbing about 98% of the time. It's not really that hard to pick up if you practice it for a while. Mix it up with ledgehop Fair, ledgehop Nayru, and Farore's Wind stalls to keep your opponent guessing.

EDIT: I just did a rough test in debug mode, and a ledgedash is actionable (i.e., you can input an action) on the 27th frame (I'm not sure if the ledgedash I did in debug was perfect, but this is a baseline measurement). A normal getup is actionable on the 34th frame, making the ledgedash somewhat faster.

 

[WhiteCrow]

What's the fastest way to get onto the stage from the ledge?

However, the first option seems harder, requiring five inputs optimally (control stick away from stage, towards stage, jump, control stick diagonally down, airdodge), and can result in SDs as well, with Zelda's slower vertical jump.

Ledge dashing is the fastest way to get back on stage without rolling, ledge jumping, or doing standard get up. Ledge jump>LC Nayru's is still good but it is slower and no longer has aerial invulnerability. While it is relevant to note the number of inputs required for a ledge dash I think you're underestimating yourself. Wave dashing to ledge and ledge dashing with wave lands give you a lot of control over your character, and both are important to practice, even with Zelda. With enough practice you'll be able to do it consistently almost every time. Remember that even the best Melee players will screw up ledge dashes, and theirs are usually more technically demanding than ours. Perfect wave landing with Zelda gets you a lot of distance quickly, and it's pretty easy to perfect ledge dash into>stuff with practice. I recommend practicing multiple options from a ledge dash to make sure the muscle memory is solid for multiple situations. I use ledge dash>b-reversed Nayru's, ledge dash>grab, ledge dash>down smash, and ledge dash>buffered roll at least once each in all of my sets (versatility makes you harder to react to).

 

[Vitriform]

Ledge dashing is the fastest way to get back on stage without rolling, ledge jumping, or doing standard get up. Ledge jump>LC Nayru's is still good but it is slower and no longer has aerial invulnerability. While it is relevant to note the number of inputs required for a ledge dash I think you're underestimating yourself. Wave dashing to ledge and ledge dashing with wave lands give you a lot of control over your character, and both are important to practice, even with Zelda. With enough practice you'll be able to do it consistently almost every time. Remember that even the best Melee players will screw up ledge dashes, and theirs are usually more technically demanding than ours. Perfect wave landing with Zelda gets you a lot of distance quickly, and it's pretty easy to perfect ledge dash into>stuff with practice. I recommend practicing multiple options from a ledge dash to make sure the muscle memory is solid for multiple situations. I use ledge dash>b-reversed Nayru's, ledge dash>grab, ledge dash>down smash, and ledge dash>buffered roll at least once each in all of my sets (versatility makes you harder to react to).

Crow, you make an excellent point by saying that you should mix up what you do out of the ledgedash as well. In addition to the ones that you mentioned, I personally also like ledgedash > Usmash, ledgedash > Utilt, and ledgedash > pivot Fsmash (the last one is great for edgeguarding tethers).

Long story short, learn ledgedashing. It's an amazing tool that will greatly improve your ledge game and your edgeguarding once you master it. It helps you land farther onstage than you would with a regular getup, it's faster if done properly, and it's a universally good technique that can help you out if you choose to learn other characters as well.

 

[luxingo]

Perfect wave landing with Zelda gets you a lot of distance quickly, and it's pretty easy to perfect ledge dash into>stuff with practice.

Is this where you airdodge horizontally? I tested this in debug mode and it seems like a one- or two-frame window.

 

[Vitriform]

Is this where you airdodge horizontally? I tested this in debug mode and it seems like a one- or two-frame window.

You are correct; a perfect waveland is completely horizontal, and it is only a one or two frame window. That said, you don't have to do a perfect waveland for ledgedashing to be effective; you always have the option to angle the stick slightly downward, giving up some distance for the sake of consistency. It's still worth practicing perfect wavelands though, if only to tighten up your timing.

 

[LupinX]

Zelda doesn't do damage at the end of her teleport when she moves right? Only when she's stationary?

 

[WhiteCrow]

Zelda doesn't do damage at the end of her teleport when she moves right? Only when she's stationary?

If you cancel Farore's Wind by pressing B while she is invisible it will end the teleport with no hit box, though she can act at the end of that animation. If you do a teleprt (usually when standing still or at max distance) and you don't cancel the animation it will have an ending hitbox.