Meta Treasure Charts: Metagame Advancement, Research Lab, and AT List.

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ive found some pretty good stuff for toon recently. Much of it is centered around setting up for an fsmash because it kills so damn early.

Ill be labbing later for exact % later on.

Before I get into the specifics, what character did you test this stuff on. What were your testing methods?

SH nair moving forward and landing through them will true combo into an fsmash if only the first hit of nair hits.

Are you sure that Nair didn't just trip the opponent? And then while you said you'd test percents later, it's always a good idea to just give really rough percents, e.g. lowish, medium, etc.

At 70%+ close range zair with forward momentum true combos in fsmash if they miss the tech, and fsmash can be delayed for a tech read if they get the tech.

Up-close-Zair to F-smash works on low percents too, and doesn't require the opponent missing a tech.

Finally, an fsmash shield break trap:

Just note that if the opponent takes F-smash 1 on their shield, not even a powershield, they can just roll to escape that situation entirely with no consequences. If you leave it at that they have reset the situation or gained a slight advantage by rolling behind you, but if you do F-smash 2 they have a large frame advantage over you (which will depend on the opposing character's roll frame data). I'm not saying that people will do the smart thing, just that they technically have this as an option every time.

1. Except at the very tip, all fast fallers and fast medium fallers are trapped in fsmash after they patched all multihit moves to trap better.

Only F-smash doesn't count as a 'multi-hit' move in that sense.

2. If the oppoent is touching toon link/on top of him/barely behind him, it doesnt matter how floaty they are, fs1 to fs2 combos due to the hitbox being a triangle shape that slopes away from toon link but is higher near him.

The difference is very very minor regardless of what the first active frame of F-smash 2 looks like. If anything, the slightly different knocback trajectories on F-smash 1's hitboxes will have played a far greater role.

 

[Halfy]

Easy, at early % hit an smash on shield and do the 2nd on purpose and get punished. And keep up shueld pressure with projectiles. It doesnt have to be dtilt, just as long as they dont have a full shield fs1, fs1, fs2 will break

Before I get into the specifics, what character did you test this stuff on. What were your testing methods?

Are you sure that Nair didn't just trip the opponent? And then while you said you'd test percents later, it's always a good idea to just give really rough percents, e.g. lowish, medium, etc.

Up-close-Zair to F-smash works on low percents too, and doesn't require the opponent missing a tech.

Just note that if the opponent takes F-smash 1 on their shield, not even a powershield, they can just roll to escape that situation entirely with no consequences. If you leave it at that they have reset the situation or gained a slight advantage by rolling behind you, but if you do F-smash 2 they have a large frame advantage over you (which will depend on the opposing character's roll frame data). I'm not saying that people will do the smart thing, just that they technically have this as an option every time.

Only F-smash doesn't count as a 'multi-hit' move in that sense.

The difference is very very minor regardless of what the first active frame of F-smash 2 looks like. If anything, the slightly different knocback trajectories on F-smash 1's hitboxes will have played a far greater role.

This seems super situational. If it works for you, then by all means feel free to do it, but don't expect it to work all the time.

 

[Moobussir]

Ive found some pretty good stuff for toon recently. Much of it is centered around setting up for an fsmash because it kills so damn early.

Ill be labbing later for exact % later on.

SH nair moving forward and landing through them will true combo into an fsmash if only the first hit of nair hits.

At 70%+ close range zair with forward momentum true combos in fsmash if they miss the tech, and fsmash can be delayed for a tech read if they get the tech.

Finally, an fsmash shield break trap:

So normally if you fsmash on shield your opponent will do a few options, grab you if your not spaced well, drop shield to try to hit you, jump away, roll away, or stay in shield expecting the 2nd hit for a free punish.

First condition your opponent to stay shielding lest they take the second hit from the massive mindgamey delay.
Second on a full shield, do dtilt on shield immediately following with fsmash hit 1 on shield, then wait for the 2nd hit delay to end and immediately throw out another fsmash hit 1. If they stayed in shield and take a second hit 1 from fsmash, immediately do hit 2 with no delay to pop their shield. Then walk them closer to edge and fully charge fsmash to kill the majority of the cast at 60%+.

I have already done this against live people in tournaments, and can confirm this works.

The main trick is to condition them to stay in shield expecting you to use hit 2 of fsmash so they can punish it for free. Videos of this shield break tech coming soon. Im thinking of calling it the "Toon Fsmash Trick Trap"

Open to better names^^

Like the others said, it's not the most reliable technique, but against opponents with little experience, it could work. People don't usually keep Toon Link's F-smash in mind, so when they see it coming, they shield and usually wait for the 2nd hit. I don't see them often trying to escape after the 1st, but you're not in the most advantageous position after the 1st either. Shielding the 1st hit usually resets, since your opponent will approach or fall back, and you're left to defending yourself again after the ending lag. Again, if it works, use it.

 

[Snasen]

Ive been using the fsmash shield break trick too. In tournament also. It actually works pretty well but only if you have momentum. Once someone is scared that trick is a good tool. Toon link also has kill options as early as 30 percent from shield break. Don't forget that

 

[Moobussir]

I caused some confusion in the Patch Notes thread regarding Toon Link's Up-Throw, and after talking with a few folks, Fox recommended I post it here.

Basically, the first time I loaded the game after updating my Wii U to 1.1.3, I did some exploring to see if any noticeable changes happened to Toon Link. When I tested throws, I saw Up-Throw did 6% instead of the 7 that all his throws do. I got confused but I tried it again, and again, and consistently got 6% (On Capt. Falcon).

I then decided to do a writeup on the Patch Notes to note the change, and tried testing the Up-Throw on other opponents, mainly a heavyweight (Bowser) and a fast-faller (Fox), since I was testing low% followups to see if anything major could happen, and these two were the best to test on. After nothing exciting came up, I posted what I could find and shut off my Wii U.

But others then tested the throw to see if the throw did 6% and they all told me it does 7%. I was confused at first, but decided to catch footage of my 6%, so I booted the Wii U again. But...the throw did 7% for me again. I got super confused and tried to explain as much as I could, but ultimately, something confusing had happened on my Wii U.

I have a theory or 2 to try to explain it, but the thing we should note I guess is that when booting up your Wii U (Maybe even 3DS who knows), in a very rare case, you might encounter an abnormality that actually alters the game. I don't know if there was another case of this somewhere else on some other board, but it did happen here, and it happened to Toon Link.

If you ever find this to happen again, yo report it, that'd be great. And if you guys know anywhere on Smashboards where I could post an abnormal incident or something like that, let me know? This is very interesting to me now, and I want to see what really happened here.

PS, since no one has discussed this since I posted it, anyone tried D-throw/bomb combo's?

I posted this in a thread about grab rewards, but it seems like a metagame advancement so I'm pasting it here as well.

Recently I've been gaining success off of comboing off D-throw, using bombs to help.
Let's say I've conditioned my opponent to shield whenever I approach them with bomb in hand and they bring up shield. I can throw my bomb up and grab them and potentially u-throw them into bomb. (I've done it on people consistently). However I have found potentially much more success by d-throwing.

You have two options when you prepare the D-throw. You can wait for the bomb to land on the ground and throw them down, letting the explosion of the bomb hit them for 4% (Or 8% if the explosion hits them instead). With the 7% of d-throw this does 11%/15%.

However, you can also d-throw them sooner, letting D-throw throw them into the bomb for 4%, which knocks them back towards you, which can lead to an aerial (Though I've only tried/gotten Up-air). Without followup, you still get 11%, the same as if you Up-threw them, but now you have another option if you can't get the Up-Throw/Bomb combo.

And if you want to mix up your approach even further if you keep getting these D-throw combo's, you could run to them with bomb in hand and jump back with boomerang/arrow as your defense, seeing if they dropped shield to approach you. So you're not always going to be predictable if you start getting these.

I think there's a ton of potential in this. What do you guys think?

Edit: Fixed some wording to be more on topic, and spacing.

The way I do it now is, once I condition my opponent to shield when I approach with bomb in hand, I JC Up-Throw the bomb to slide forward, grab my opponent, wait for the bomb to fall behind me and D-throw them, either getting the bomb/explosion to hit while they're on the ground, or throw sooner and try to get the Up-air followup after bomb. Try it!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I caused some confusion in the Patch Notes thread regarding Toon Link's Up-Throw, and after talking with a few folks, Fox recommended I post it here.

Basically, the first time I loaded the game after updating my Wii U to 1.1.3, I did some exploring to see if any noticeable changes happened to Toon Link. When I tested throws, I saw Up-Throw did 6% instead of the 7 that all his throws do. I got confused but I tried it again, and again, and consistently got 6% (On Capt. Falcon).

I then decided to do a writeup on the Patch Notes to note the change, and tried testing the Up-Throw on other opponents, mainly a heavyweight (Bowser) and a fast-faller (Fox), since I was testing low% followups to see if anything major could happen, and these two were the best to test on. After nothing exciting came up, I posted what I could find and shut off my Wii U.

But others then tested the throw to see if the throw did 6% and they all told me it does 7%. I was confused at first, but decided to catch footage of my 6%, so I booted the Wii U again. But...the throw did 7% for me again. I got super confused and tried to explain as much as I could, but ultimately, something confusing had happened on my Wii U.

I have a theory or 2 to try to explain it, but the thing we should note I guess is that when booting up your Wii U (Maybe even 3DS who knows), in a very rare case, you might encounter an abnormality that actually alters the game. I don't know if there was another case of this somewhere else on some other board, but it did happen here, and it happened to Toon Link.

If you ever find this to happen again, yo report it, that'd be great. And if you guys know anywhere on Smashboards where I could post an abnormal incident or something like that, let me know? This is very interesting to me now, and I want to see what really happened here.

PS, since no one has discussed this since I posted it, anyone tried D-throw/bomb combo's?




The way I do it now is, once I condition my opponent to shield when I approach with bomb in hand, I JC Up-Throw the bomb to slide forward, grab my opponent, wait for the bomb to fall behind me and D-throw them, either getting the bomb/explosion to hit while they're on the ground, or throw sooner and try to get the Up-air followup after bomb. Try it!

I'm in training right now, vs Captain Falcon, and U-throw is doing 6%. 4% on the first hit, 2% on the second hit, consistently. I'm going to look into this further just in case this is a one time thing.
Ok then I tried it on Mario and it did 7%. Going back to Captain Falcon now... still 6%, regardless of starting percent. I'll check in a real match outside of training mode... still 6% on CF. I'm going to turn the wii-u off and on... still 6% on CF. Something about U-throw must change its percent depending on something to do with the opponent's attributes like weight or gravity or fall speed or something. I'm going to try it on every character to be sure.
Bowser Jr receives 8% but he doesn't count because he has his own unique character trait.
Donkey Kong receives 6% as well.
Right, so after testing every character, Toon's up-throw only does 6% to CF and DK. All I can say is there's something about their attributes that causes Up-throw to deal out less damage on its first hit. I don't know if this was always the case or if it's just come in recently, and I can't say why this happens for certain beyond the explanation I've given.

 

[mush21]

It's sad that this is the only change we've gotten.

 

[Snasen]

I'm in training right now, vs Captain Falcon, and U-throw is doing 6%. 4% on the first hit, 2% on the second hit, consistently. I'm going to look into this further just in case this is a one time thing.
Ok then I tried it on Mario and it did 7%. Going back to Captain Falcon now... still 6%, regardless of starting percent. I'll check in a real match outside of training mode... still 6% on CF. I'm going to turn the wii-u off and on... still 6% on CF. Something about U-throw must change its percent depending on something to do with the opponent's attributes like weight or gravity or fall speed or something. I'm going to try it on every character to be sure.
Bowser Jr receives 8% but he doesn't count because he has his own unique character trait.
Donkey Kong receives 6% as well.
Right, so after testing every character, Toon's up-throw only does 6% to CF and DK. All I can say is there's something about their attributes that causes Up-throw to deal out less damage on its first hit. I don't know if this was always the case or if it's just come in recently, and I can't say why this happens for certain beyond the explanation I've given.

You do 0,5% more in vs mode but I dunno why not on cf, might be multiple hitboxes on the uthrow

 

[Moobussir]

I'm in training right now, vs Captain Falcon, and U-throw is doing 6%. 4% on the first hit, 2% on the second hit, consistently. I'm going to look into this further just in case this is a one time thing.
Ok then I tried it on Mario and it did 7%. Going back to Captain Falcon now... still 6%, regardless of starting percent. I'll check in a real match outside of training mode... still 6% on CF. I'm going to turn the wii-u off and on... still 6% on CF. Something about U-throw must change its percent depending on something to do with the opponent's attributes like weight or gravity or fall speed or something. I'm going to try it on every character to be sure.
Bowser Jr receives 8% but he doesn't count because he has his own unique character trait.
Donkey Kong receives 6% as well.
Right, so after testing every character, Toon's up-throw only does 6% to CF and DK. All I can say is there's something about their attributes that causes Up-throw to deal out less damage on its first hit. I don't know if this was always the case or if it's just come in recently, and I can't say why this happens for certain beyond the explanation I've given.

Oh my goodness there's more proof.

Here's my hypothesis. The first hit of Up-Throw has a portion that does 5%, and a portion that does 4%. It's most prevelant when you use Up-Throw on one target, and a 2nd target gets sliced by the sword for standing close to Toon Link. And I have a video to complement it: https://youtu.be/j8ZSgf1jaX0?t=2m28s

Pay attention to the last number the shows on the combo counter. Sometimes it's 4%, sometimes it's 5%. I tried seeing what causes it, and I usually got 5% when Fox faced towards Toon Link, and 4% when he faced away, but that's not the most important thing. The point is, that portion of the attack does different percents on different targets, or at least in different positions, but we don't seem to be sure when this came in, or if it was always like this. I want to say it changed this recent patch, and perhaps it's because Up-throw might have been changed to be influenced by weight, whereas, at least according to what's listed on Kurogane Hammer, it's not influenced by weight since the data was recorded. (http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Toon Link)

What's really weird is that when I was testing, I also did 6% on Fox and Bowser. Didn't try DK or Bowser Jr., and you tested the whole cast, and you only found it on the two. But your results are more consistent since you reset the Wii U too.

Okay you can ignore what I said about the Up-Throw changing based on weight. I just tested this on my 3DS, which is still on 1.1.2, and Up-Throw on Falcon and DK does 6%, 8% on Bowser Jr, and 7% on Bowser, Fox, and everyone else. So it's been like this for a while then, maybe since the beginning. While this doesn't explain why it was doing 6% on Bowser and Fox last time I loaded it, it explains for Falcon at least, and must prove my hypothesis about the blade hitting opponents differently on Up-Throw. At least we know something more.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm in training right now, vs Captain Falcon, and U-throw is doing 6%. 4% on the first hit, 2% on the second hit, consistently. I'm going to look into this further just in case this is a one time thing.
Ok then I tried it on Mario and it did 7%. Going back to Captain Falcon now... still 6%, regardless of starting percent. I'll check in a real match outside of training mode... still 6% on CF. I'm going to turn the wii-u off and on... still 6% on CF. Something about U-throw must change its percent depending on something to do with the opponent's attributes like weight or gravity or fall speed or something. I'm going to try it on every character to be sure.
Bowser Jr receives 8% but he doesn't count because he has his own unique character trait.
Donkey Kong receives 6% as well.
Right, so after testing every character, Toon's up-throw only does 6% to CF and DK. All I can say is there's something about their attributes that causes Up-throw to deal out less damage on its first hit. I don't know if this was always the case or if it's just come in recently, and I can't say why this happens for certain beyond the explanation I've given.

Throw hitboxes hit opponents, it seems likely that the first throw hitbox has a 4 and 5% hit but only the 4% hit is capable of hitting falcon and DK.

Think of it as a pummel like Samus trying to pummel bowser in brawl, the pummel hitbox usually missed on him. Same thing happens here, the 5% throw hitbox is missing and only the 4% one is hitting.

 

[Moobussir]

Throw hitboxes hit opponents, it seems likely that the first throw hitbox has a 4 and 5% hit but only the 4% hit is capable of hitting falcon and DK.

Think of it as a pummel like Samus trying to pummel bowser in brawl, the pummel hitbox usually missed on him. Same thing happens here, the 5% throw hitbox is missing and only the 4% one is hitting.

Yup, sounds about right. Though it's interesting that Falcon and DK are the only two affected (I'd expect other humanoids like Mac, Shulk or Ryu to be affected), it's only now that we realize that Falcon and DK are being hit by the "sourspot" of Up-Throw. Though it's not that big a deal honestly. All this means is that Up-Throw to Up-air works for 1% more then expected, and they'll die 1% later then expected.

 

[Halfy]

Yup, sounds about right. Though it's interesting that Falcon and DK are the only two affected (I'd expect other humanoids like Mac, Shulk or Ryu to be affected), it's only now that we realize that Falcon and DK are being hit by the "sourspot" of Up-Throw. Though it's not that big a deal honestly. All this means is that Up-Throw to Up-air works for 1% more then expected, and they'll die 1% later then expected.

Either way, it shouldn't make enough of a difference to actually matter in a match.

 

[Linq]

I didn't see this listed in the AT post, but if you forego jumping and execute a dair stall, you can direct your dair to move diagonally up to 45 degrees or more. Upon hitting an opponent or some projectiles you will then get the vertical speed and angle of a normal directed dair. Seemed common enough to me, but since I haven't seen it posted anywhere... Can post a vid if need be.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I didn't see this listed in the AT post, but if you forego jumping and execute a dair stall, you can direct your dair to move diagonally up to 45 degrees or more. Upon hitting an opponent or some projectiles you will then get the vertical speed and angle of a normal directed dair. Seemed common enough to me, but since I haven't seen it posted anywhere... Can post a vid if need be.

As you probably guessed it is known, but you're right in that it certainly wouldn't hurt to mention it. I'll add a quick something about it in the 'note' of Dair Stall.

 

[Moobussir]

I didn't see this listed in the AT post, but if you forego jumping and execute a dair stall, you can direct your dair to move diagonally up to 45 degrees or more. Upon hitting an opponent or some projectiles you will then get the vertical speed and angle of a normal directed dair. Seemed common enough to me, but since I haven't seen it posted anywhere... Can post a vid if need be.

For clarification, is this what you mean? https://youtu.be/nBDqdsAOEyI?t=4m3s (Using slow dair out of hitstun, then hitting something else on your way down to gain high speed again)
If so, we could use this as video proof, unless we need something more focused on the technique instead of "Hey here's a match that happened to used the technique!"

Also, on another topic, I was thinking about staling, and how that affects Toon Link's gameplay, and I wanted to talk about it. Toon Link can usually cycle through his staling pretty well since his projectiles affect the staling count, and bombs don't get weaker from staling which is a nice plus. But one of his most useful moves, F-air, gets pretty stale since it's such a reliable finisher from bomb and boomerang combo's, and usually the only option we have. And since it's a great KO move, it's notably detrimental to let it be so stale. Sometimes it's so stale, B-air can kill sooner then stale F-air, which got me thinking: How often should we think about finishing a combo with B-air over F-air? I have a few pros and cons for both.

Pros:
B-air comes out faster
Usually isn't as stale
Kills more vertically then F-air (Situational)

Cons:
Usually have to be on the ground to initiate RAR before B-air, making it more restricted
Kills more vertically then F-air (Situational)
Unless F-air is really stale, B-air may do 1-2% less damage

Overall, I think that if you're on the ground and not near the edge, B-air may be the better option out of a projectile combo. But what do you guys think? Is it even worth trying to incorporate into our gameplay?

Also, since BSD mentioned it in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wis_25jQeew), we can use things like the balloons on the Animal Crossing stages or the statues in Castle Siege to stale other moves of lower priority. What moves do you guys think we should stale if we have chances to hit them? I think arrows are the best since we can throw lots out quickly on statues, and sniping balloons is easy, though depending on how useful arrows are to you, might not be best. D-air also comes to mind, but it's slow to come out and finish, so might only be able to fit in 1-2 on statues, and hitting the balloons might be hard with D-air too.

EDIT: Added that F-air's a kill move in paragraph, and bottom paragraph

 

[Halfy]

For clarification, is this what you mean? https://youtu.be/nBDqdsAOEyI?t=4m3s (Using slow dair out of hitstun, then hitting something else on your way down to gain high speed again)
If so, we could use this as video proof, unless we need something more focused on the technique instead of "Hey here's a match that happened to used the technique!"

Also, on another topic, I was thinking about staling, and how that affects Toon Link's gameplay, and I wanted to talk about it. Toon Link can usually cycle through his staling pretty well since his projectiles affect the staling count, and bombs don't get weaker from staling which is a nice plus. But one of his most useful moves, F-air, gets pretty stale since it's such a reliable finisher from bomb and boomerang combo's, and usually the only option we have. And since it's a great KO move, it's notably detrimental to let it be so stale. Sometimes it's so stale, B-air can kill sooner then stale F-air, which got me thinking: How often should we think about finishing a combo with B-air over F-air? I have a few pros and cons for both.

Pros:
B-air comes out faster
Usually isn't as stale
Kills more vertically then F-air (Situational)

Cons:
Usually have to be on the ground to initiate RAR before B-air, making it more restricted
Kills more vertically then F-air (Situational)
Unless F-air is really stale, B-air may do 1-2% less damage

Overall, I think that if you're on the ground and not near the edge, B-air may be the better option out of a projectile combo. But what do you guys think? Is it even worth trying to incorporate into our gameplay?

Also, since BSD mentioned it in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wis_25jQeew), we can use things like the balloons on the Animal Crossing stages or the statues in Castle Siege to stale other moves of lower priority. What moves do you guys think we should stale if we have chances to hit them? I think arrows are the best since we can throw lots out quickly on statues, and sniping balloons is easy, though depending on how useful arrows are to you, might not be best. D-air also comes to mind, but it's slow to come out and finish, so might only be able to fit in 1-2 on statues, and hitting the balloons might be hard with D-air too.

EDIT: Added that F-air's a kill move in paragraph, and bottom paragraph

The tournaments near me all ban CS, but for staling I would use dash attack or just bombs.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

For clarification, is this what you mean? https://youtu.be/nBDqdsAOEyI?t=4m3s (Using slow dair out of hitstun, then hitting something else on your way down to gain high speed again)
If so, we could use this as video proof, unless we need something more focused on the technique instead of "Hey here's a match that happened to used the technique!"

Also, on another topic, I was thinking about staling, and how that affects Toon Link's gameplay, and I wanted to talk about it. Toon Link can usually cycle through his staling pretty well since his projectiles affect the staling count, and bombs don't get weaker from staling which is a nice plus. But one of his most useful moves, F-air, gets pretty stale since it's such a reliable finisher from bomb and boomerang combo's, and usually the only option we have. And since it's a great KO move, it's notably detrimental to let it be so stale. Sometimes it's so stale, B-air can kill sooner then stale F-air, which got me thinking: How often should we think about finishing a combo with B-air over F-air? I have a few pros and cons for both.

Pros:
B-air comes out faster
Usually isn't as stale
Kills more vertically then F-air (Situational)

Cons:
Usually have to be on the ground to initiate RAR before B-air, making it more restricted
Kills more vertically then F-air (Situational)
Unless F-air is really stale, B-air may do 1-2% less damage

Overall, I think that if you're on the ground and not near the edge, B-air may be the better option out of a projectile combo. But what do you guys think? Is it even worth trying to incorporate into our gameplay?

Also, since BSD mentioned it in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wis_25jQeew), we can use things like the balloons on the Animal Crossing stages or the statues in Castle Siege to stale other moves of lower priority. What moves do you guys think we should stale if we have chances to hit them? I think arrows are the best since we can throw lots out quickly on statues, and sniping balloons is easy, though depending on how useful arrows are to you, might not be best. D-air also comes to mind, but it's slow to come out and finish, so might only be able to fit in 1-2 on statues, and hitting the balloons might be hard with D-air too.

EDIT: Added that F-air's a kill move in paragraph, and bottom paragraph

At low/medium percents (char dependant) we should go for Bomb to U-smash instead of Bomb to Fair/Bair imo. U-smash does the same damage as Fair and puts the opponent in a bad position for potential follow-ups/juggles/strings.

 

[Halfy]

At low/medium percents (char dependant) we should go for Bomb to U-smash instead of Bomb to Fair/Bair imo. U-smash does the same damage as Fair and puts the opponent in a bad position for potential follow-ups/juggles/strings.

At lower percents it should be fine to use fair seeing as we can footstool out of it, and then we can hold off on it during mid percents and use upsmash instead. Then, at kill percents, switch back to using fair.

 

[Dre89]

Can't you just RAR and use bair in any situation that you'd fair?

 

[Halfy]

Can't you just RAR and use bair in any situation that you'd fair

Bair is more situational than fair, like Moobussir said above. Sometimes you can't get to the ground to RAR, and sometimes fair is just a better option in terms of kill power, combo ability, tacking on percent, and stage control. While bomb > RAR bair is something to keep in mind to prevent staling, also remember that bair gets stale too. Its best to mix up between fair, bair, and up smash after bomb, and sometimes do situational followups such as boomerang, zair, and up air. The whole idea of staling isn't as much of an issue for toon link as it is for other characters since we can use bombs to negate staling (or at least make staling less of an issue). I'd say to not worry as much about staling as you worry about the followups and stage control you get after each attack.






And besides, down smash is obviously our best option out of bomb anyway.

 

[LotadAlittle]

So first off, I haven't actually tested it in-game, but this should theoretically work; I'd be very surprised if it didn't.

Anyway, has anyone found any use for doing a sh 'autocancel' fair? I use the term "autocancel" loosely because it technically isn't but just simulates it. For anyone who doesn't know about this, do a regular sh fair and A-land during the iasa frames (Ideally with up air, because, if I remember right, it has the most autocancelling frames at the beginning.)

So this basically gives you another mixup/option. This can be safer than double jumping out or using a special because it excludes the risk of being left off stage without a jump/on stage with the end lag of a special. Does anyone know if this can help with follow ups at all? maybe something along the lines of fair, A-land, dash attack at low %s.

I'd love to see what kind of potential this could have.

 

[Halfy]

So first off, I haven't actually tested it in-game, but this should theoretically work; I'd be very surprised if it didn't.

Anyway, has anyone found any use for doing a sh 'autocancel' fair? I use the term "autocancel" loosely because it technically isn't but just simulates it. For anyone who doesn't know about this, do a regular sh fair and A-land during the iasa frames (Ideally with up air, because, if I remember right, it has the most autocancelling frames at the beginning.)

So this basically gives you another mixup/option. This can be safer than double jumping out or using a special because it excludes the risk of being left off stage without a jump/on stage with the end lag of a special. Does anyone know if this can help with follow ups at all? maybe something along the lines of fair, A-land, dash attack at low %s.

I'd love to see what kind of potential this could have.

if you SH fair, you only have 2 IASA frames before you land. So, you should be able to A-land with either nair, up air, or another fair. Actually, this is pretty useful when combined with the 3 frames you can use to buffer, making not too hard of an input.

Okay, from my testing, dash attack only works at very low percents, while upsmash works for a few more percent. Arrow and boomerang, as well as grab, zair, and nair all seem possible, but I'll have to test more later.

 

[LotadAlittle]

if you SH fair, you only have 2 IASA frames before you land. So, you should be able to A-land with either nair, up air, or another fair. Actually, this is pretty useful when combined with the 3 frames you can use to buffer, making not too hard of an input.

Okay, from my testing, dash attack only works at very low percents, while upsmash works for a few more percent. Arrow and boomerang, as well as grab, zair, and nair all seem possible, but I'll have to test more later.

thanks for testing, I'll try it out a bit later too.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So first off, I haven't actually tested it in-game, but this should theoretically work; I'd be very surprised if it didn't.

Anyway, has anyone found any use for doing a sh 'autocancel' fair? I use the term "autocancel" loosely because it technically isn't but just simulates it. For anyone who doesn't know about this, do a regular sh fair and A-land during the iasa frames (Ideally with up air, because, if I remember right, it has the most autocancelling frames at the beginning.)

So this basically gives you another mixup/option. This can be safer than double jumping out or using a special because it excludes the risk of being left off stage without a jump/on stage with the end lag of a special. Does anyone know if this can help with follow ups at all? maybe something along the lines of fair, A-land, dash attack at low %s.

I'd love to see what kind of potential this could have.

It doesn't work like that. Interrupting aerials with other aerials doesn't remove the previous landing lag flag, or something like that. The point is, while you can get U-air to start after SH Fair before you land, and while you can time it to land within the required 5 frame autocancel window, the game doesn't allow you to cheat like that. The best you can do, still, is land with Nair, throw a bomb, use a special, or DJ out.

 

[Halfy]

It doesn't work like that. Interrupting aerials with other aerials doesn't remove the previous landing lag flag, or something like that. The point is, while you can get U-air to start after SH Fair before you land, and while you can time it to land within the required 5 frame autocancel window, the game doesn't allow you to cheat like that. The best you can do, still, is land with Nair, throw a bomb, use a special, or DJ out.

What specifically makes it so you can't? Is there some other property to fair?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

What specifically makes it so you can't? Is there some other property to fair?

I don't know what it is specifically. It's not just Toon's Fair either. None of the aerials in smash 4 that have IASA frames before their autocancel frames can have their landing lag flag bypassed with this method. It's just a rule built into the game so far as I know, plain and simple. I'm no code expert, but in the end there's no reason to know the specifics beyond what we know practically speaking.

 

[LotadAlittle]

It doesn't work like that. Interrupting aerials with other aerials doesn't remove the previous landing lag flag, or something like that. The point is, while you can get U-air to start after SH Fair before you land, and while you can time it to land within the required 5 frame autocancel window, the game doesn't allow you to cheat like that. The best you can do, still, is land with Nair, throw a bomb, use a special, or DJ out.

um...
ummmm...
It was just a prank?
yep, I goofed.

 

[Halfy]

um...
ummmm...
It was just a prank?
yep, I goofed.

ehh

I like to JCBT > Fair > DJ bomb pull anyway

 

[Linq]

For clarification, is this what you mean? https://youtu.be/nBDqdsAOEyI?t=4m3s (Using slow dair out of hitstun, then hitting something else on your way down to gain high speed again)
If so, we could use this as video proof, unless we need something more focused on the technique instead of "Hey here's a match that happened to used the technique!"

Not quite. When executed to its full potential, before the first hit connects, you move diagonally up to 45 degrees or so (based on the horizontal speed you have upon executing it, so holding to the side is better), while maintaining a constant velocity, either until the move ends or until you hit something. The timing for the dair is after a slow dair (executing a dair immediately out of hitstun), but before normal dair. To have done it in that video, you would have had to have waited a fraction of a second longer before doing the dair, and it would have been subtle, as the effect is more pronounced when exiting hitstun from higher knockback.

 

[ILJ]

I've been out of it for a while. But has it been mentioned that Tink can fast fall and throw a bomb at the same time? The "Fast fall bomb toss" is performed by fast falling and pressing the special button at the peak of jump height at which one would normally press down on to fast fall. Definitely a viable option with short hopping.

 

[Halfy]

I've been out of it for a while. But has it been mentioned that Tink can fast fall and throw a bomb at the same time? The "Fast fall bomb toss" is performed by fast falling and pressing the special button at the peak of jump height at which one would normally press down on to fast fall. Definitely a viable option with short hopping.

Also works with the c stick in any direction

 

[lamegenie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTpuiy5JzNs

this video was just posted by Zan. SH air dodge to uair (which frame cancels). seems like a great new combo starter.

 

[LotadAlittle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTpuiy5JzNs

this video was just posted by Zan. SH air dodge to uair (which frame cancels). seems like a great new combo starter.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

This counts as spam.

 

[LotadAlittle]

This counts as spam.

Oh, really? Sorry, hadn't known that.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTpuiy5JzNs

this video was just posted by Zan. SH air dodge to uair (which frame cancels). seems like a great new combo starter.

Yo! I was poked by Fox Is Openly Deceptive about this. I did some super sleuthing (uhh, I just look at the frame data) and found that the numbers work out pretty nicely.

Toon Link:
Short Hop Time: 41 Frames
Air Dodge Time: 30 Frames
Difference: 11 Frames

In principle, a frame sync* requires a hitbox to come out on the frame before landing. This forces the landing lag and the attacker hit lag to overlap, shortening the overall landing time for the attacker. While this does not work on shields, the potential for additional combo options is pretty great.

I looked at all characters, and I'll post that list to the Mechanics and Techniques forum. Here's what you guys should know: the numbers work out for two moves!

Up Air First Hit Box - 11 Frames
Zair First Hitbox - 11 Frames

Will this actually work with Zair? I have no idea. The mechanics of frame syncing aren't 100% understood. For instance, I can't get Falco's down air to work in frame advance mode, despite it being the Case Zero example in Izaw's original video. I bring this to you all to encourage testing. If I get the time, I'll confirm the results myself.

Cheers and happy researching!




*I will argue everywhere I can about the name of this technique. It was named before we knew how it functioned (overlapping landing lag and attacker hitlag). No frames are cancelled, but instead two phenomenon are happening at once. To that end, "Frame Sync" is a more phenomenologically accurate name than "Frame Cancel."

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yo! I was poked by Fox Is Openly Deceptive about this. I did some super sleuthing (uhh, I just look at the frame data) and found that the numbers work out pretty nicely.

Toon Link:
Short Hop Time: 41 Frames
Air Dodge Time: 30 Frames
Difference: 11 Frames

Yes I'm aware of all that. I was talking about something more specific.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Yes I'm aware of all that. I was talking about something more specific.

Ah! OK! I'll check it out when I get home and see what's up!

Though from my experience looking at this before... the video doesn't look out of the ordinary. It reminds me of the Ganon footstool setup, actually.

It shares an oddity with Ganon, actually. Outside of any other characters with this particular setup (air dodges match well with short hop times), Toon Link and Ganon are the only two that I've seen accomplish this feat without a fast fall.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTpuiy5JzNs

this video was just posted by Zan. SH air dodge to uair (which frame cancels). seems like a great new combo starter.

After confirming my findings with Dr. Tuen , I'm sorry to tell you but, while it is true that Toon does get a frame synch by using Uair on the last airborne frame, and it's certainly true that this is a super practical set-up for it, for some reason that we're still not sure about, Toon only gets a partial frame synch with or without fast falling. Out of a total potential advantage of 10 frames (as there are 10 frames of hitlag), Toon only gets to synch the last 2 frames of hitlag with the first 2 frames of his landing lag if you don't fast fall. Which is a little underwhelming when considering what could have been. It doesn't help that this is the first known example of a partial frame synch; something that was previously considered to be impossible in theory. I guess the good news is that it will lead to a greater understanding of the mechanics behind frame synching, if that's any consolation to you.
If you fast fall however, you will frame synch more of the hitlag. If you fast fall on the frame that you hit, i.e. the 41st airborne frame, you'll be able to synch 5 frames (which is still a partial frame synch, but better). If you fast fall on the frame before however, Uair won't hit.

 

[ILJ]

Toon link can short or full hop zair with bomb in hand and catch it while he's on the ground.