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Meta Treasure Charts: Metagame Advancement, Research Lab, and AT List.

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

Smash Detective
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
3,969
Location
WinMelee, Australia
Toon's Treasure Charts!



-First Post: The Lakeside Laboratory
-Second Post: Toon's Bottomless Bag of ATs and Tricks




The Lakeside Laboratory

General Introduction and Summary

Welcome to the Lab. This is the place where we'll work together to test and develop anything and everything Toon related. If you find something cool or interesting that might in some small way go towards the sum of Toon knowledge, then this is the place to post it. Once this information gets inside this thread, we will work together to get the most out of it. If you want to discuss any of Toon's weaknesses that you want to overcome, then point it out and we'll put our heads together to think of different ways around it. If you see potential in any of Toon's game that you would like to see developed further, then feel free to suggest it and we'll look into it together. If you ever need something tested or checked, then this is the place to ask. Anything that goes towards developing Toon's metagame like tricks or combos etc, this is the place. You get the idea.



So what will I be doing?
Good question.

Other than contributing myself of course, the OP will become a place where the important discussion is collected as a point of easy reference for those who want to catch up without having to look through all the pages of this thread and as a place where you can come to learn what has been discovered so far. Here's how it's gonna work.

First of all, as stated above, everyone contributes by posting relevant material as outlined in the summary of this thread.

(In the second post of this thread, you will find an up to date list of ATs. Feel free to check it out to give you some ideas for things to talk about or develop. As this thread continues to discover more about Toon Link, the second post will be updated with any new discoveries.)

Once discussion gets going, I will continue to update this post with your quotes. This will involve the original idea and then any helpful contributions that are made after it that actually go towards some sort of a conclusion or advancement. In the end, I will ultimately be deciding what gets quoted and what does not. Don't take it personally if you don't get quoted. I probably had my reasons. Just keep trying to post helpfully and productively. If your post is attempting to start a new idea that we should discuss and you haven't been quoted yet, the chances are I'm just sitting back and watching where the idea is going first. Once I see that the idea is going somewhere, I will be obliged to quote it and only too happy to do so.



Quoted Ideas and Useful/Helpful Responses

Read through this section so you can get instantly up to date with any of the previous discussions instead of having to read through the entire thread. This will give you a general idea of what we are discussing and will help you contribute.
For the sake of making it easier and quicker to read and catch up, I have edited some of the quotes. The full posts can of course be found in this thread. Typically if I add any writing of my own [it will be like this].

Currently updated up to this post: http://smashboards.com/threads/trea...h-lab-and-at-list.380910/page-8#post-20517374


New Z-drop Mechanics. Now what?
Well like it or not, we're stuck with it. When you go to Z-drop a Bomb, the Zair/Tether comes out. Let's talk about possible ways around this issue and possible uses for our new-found powers.
You can z-drop a bomb and re-catch it near a ledge by instantly hitting down to cancel the tether (then just double jump and catch the bomb with e.g. an aerial).

You can also z-drop the bomb without the Zair coming out if you do it immediately after a ledge jump (similar to the well known z-drop instantly after a SH/FH.) This is only really interesting as it makes me wonder if there are any other ways to z-drop without the zair coming out, and more importantly, why does it work in these cases but not in others?
So I found three new ways to z-drop a bomb without doing a Zair/tether.

There are the previously known ways of doing this which is to SH/FH then instantly z-drop or to ledge jump and instantly z-drop.
I had often wondered why that was, but in any case, I found that the same thing can be done by z-dropping immediately after an aerial (I tested it with Nair, Bair, Fair and Uair), out of a footstool, and out of hitstun.
Everything else will result in a bomb throw (so no special moves or airdodge etc).
So we can do stuff like double jump ZAC out of an aerial (you'd have to do something like the BFO first) or out of hitstun. Pretty cool.
I wonder if we can find any uses for the new Z bomb drop. I've been trying a ton, but I can't really find any except maybe for escaping. Even then, TL already has tons of options for escaping, most of which are better than escaping with zair and bomb drops.
:170:
As for possible uses for the new zair + z-drop, well I guess it makes it so that poorly spaced Zairs are safer now and for that matter it makes retreating Zairs generally safer.
Also if you Zair upon landing after a FH or from a generally greater height than a SH, you can immediately catch the bomb with an aerial (so you can do stuff like FH bomb pull, Zair(at full length if timed correctly)+drop, land, SH/FH aerial to re-catch the bomb). It's a good point though. That is to say, all this talk about trying to find ways to z-drop without the Zair coming out means there has been some neglect as to how we can use what we've been given.
I think we shouldn't be focussing on the 4% the Bomb is doing, or even necessarily on the fact that we can catch the Bomb, heck, we shouldn't even necessarily be focussing on IZAC. What we should be focusing on is how much better Instant Z-dropping is in a game where the Bomb blast doesn't hurt us. It means that we can have a hitbox coming out immediately as we are leaving the ground that has absolutely no end lag and that combos into our aerials. This is kind of a big deal. It means that if we have a Bomb, all of our aerials may as well come out on frame 2 when we are up close.
Something strange I found the other day abut Instant z-dropping a bomb the other day is if you drop the bomb just in front of the opponent and wait a second and Nair. Mostly on fatties you will get a triple hit.
When running towards an opponent. If you z-drop the bomb just in front of them without it exploding and perform a Nair. For some reason you will be guaranteed the Nair's double hit and the bomb explosion will also somehow connect.

[Also,] I found something kinda useful when applying Instant Z-drops that I think you're going to love Fox.
Take a look:
/watch?v=2DqRCELsQ5g
Just throw the link in to a Youtube URL.
You'll notice that doing this can force a foostool if they fail to shield it. If they do shield however, you are left with some options. Whilst they sit in shield panicking about the bomb you could even pull another right after Instant dropping that one.
[And of course, when you are this close to the ground,] footstools CANNOT be tech'd.
[While this can be done by simply throwing the Bomb downwards and then footstooling,] when throwing the bomb downwards you have more cooldown and actually need to follow the DI of the opponent when doing it this way. Instant z-drop allows us to footstool them the moment it hits them giving us wider options than usual.

Issues with and Applications of Zair in Smash 4
Things are different in smash 4 and the use of Zair hasn't escaped these changes. What was once an invaluable tool has become more difficult to utilise. Discuss beneficial uses, problems and ways to work around those problems.
something that's bugged me from the start is how after performing an aerial, if you buffer a lagless zair, it'll result in an airdodge.
For example I'll double jump Fair, Fast fall, and try to zair, but it'll airdodge instead.

Why is that, and is there a way to avoid it?
In Brawl there used to be a similar issue that when you buffered a Zair out of something, you would airdodge, and the way to avoid this was to input the Zair manually (instead of just the grab button, you'd press the shield then the attack or grab button (you need to hold the shield button if you want to use the attack button)). Things have changed in smash 4 and this issue is now way more problematic.
For starters, you have to wait till the absolute end of the animation of anything before doing a Zair with just the grab button, otherwise you'll just get an airdodge. To clarify, this isn't even about buffering any more. You cannot even Zair with the grab button in the IASA frames. What I'm saying is that because Toon is still busy with the animation of e.g. a Full hop Nair by the time he is well on his way back down, until Toon goes completely back to an animation of him falling as if you never did a move, pressing the grab button will always result in an airdodge. To give you an idea, if you are perfect with your timing, you can only barely get out a hitbox of Zair after a Full hop Nair by just pressing the grab button.
Secondly, there is a new buffering system that doesn't allow multiple inputs to be buffered, this mean that you can only buffer the airdodge out of something, not the Zair (this is if you are going for the shield button plus attack/grab button manual Zair work-around).
Thirdly of course, cancelling airdodge with a Zair will still result in the airdodge's landing lag.
What does all this mean?
Well if you want to land with only the lag of Zair you need to be absolutely sure that every last bit of the previous move's animation is finished. You will actually have to wait till Toon visibly looks like he is in his neutral aerial state, and only then may you press the grab button.
If however you know that you'll get the Zair if you do it out of the IASA frames of the previous move, which in many cases is much much earlier, or the situation is such that it doesn't matter if you get the lag of the airdodge, then the method you'll want to use is to buffer the airdodge only, then use the grab button only (immediately) when the airdodge actually comes out. If you are used to the method where you use the attack button to cancel the airdodge, you'll now need to make sure that you hold the shield button instead of just pressing them both at the same time to buffer both. I cannot stress, you must wait till the airdodge animation actually comes out. It is still possible with this method to get a full length Zair after a full hop Nair if you time everything perfectly.
Currently, there is no real solution, only understanding and acceptance, but I'm open for any ideas.

IZAC: Very difficult, is it worth learning?
This is a debate that goes back to Brawl. And in smash 4 the IZAC is arguably even more difficult to perform, yet for some reason it is still used.
To be honest though, I have been the only Toon Link so far who's probably nailed the instant z-drop. It's no easy trick. I've gotten a few other Toon Links interested in learning it now but even they can agree it is one of the most demanding AT's Toon Link has. What I like about Insant Z-drop myself is the ability to just nair and land with a bomb in my hand making me somewhat safe still. It also really confuses the opponent.
There are other Toon's that use it but it still has the stigma attached to it that it did from Brawl back when practically no-one used IZAC even though it was considered one of our better AT's. I consider it to be even better in this game, due to the Bomb not hurting us allowing it to be used in very close proximity as well, but it's also riskier due to the potential of accidentally doing an aggressive rising Zair that will miss most characters and leave Toon completely open.
I honestly don't see IZAC being all that useful at this point. I think it was extremely useful when we had BLC [he's talking about the 'bomb lag cancel', it was patched out], but now we cant autocancel aerials from IZAC like we could previously. Plus, I don't think it will come in handy at high level play. One thing that alot of people, especially TL mains in Brawl, seem to overcomplicate is tech skill/learning or using every technique we have in every situation. I just don't think its worth the time and risk to try in tournament when its not all that reliable anymore, especially when we can focus on just getting solid stage control and keepaway setup instead. If you have time to go up to your opponent and IZAC nair or whatever, that means you could've gone the safe route and just bomb to faired. Cause all in all, both options will lose to shield.

It can be useful in the Rosalina matchup, but I'd rather just play smart than rely on something that you have to do in 2 frames that doesnt autocancel, isnt very safe, and is situational.
I've still made super good use of IZAC so personally I don't see a problem in learning it or not. It's not gonna make you become uberly good learning it. It's like any other tech you can learn. You must learn how to apply it, just like I have. Now, Zan is correct, It can be shielded but you cannot ignore that it is a mix up (a damn good one at that) Yes we can't act out of Nair instantly but against most characters who don't have ridiculous dash attacks, It's still stable enough when spaced.
I don't abuse IZAC like it was quickdraws in brawl. But I will use it from time to time as a mix up and it works don't get me wrong. You might think people can punish it easily but if you simply pull back and then run with a JC back throw you're pretty much covered. You don't even need to catch the bomb alternatively, delay the ariel and ignore the bomb leaving some shield pressure if you even want. IZAC it's self may not have uberly good options. But the tech Instant Z-Drop it's self has uses because of bombs no longer exploding in our face now.

Options out of Jab 1 or Jab 2 other than Jab 3?
Should you just go with the full three Jabs or try something sneaky to potentially get a greater reward?
I was wondering what your thoughts are on different options out of Jab 2. Grab might be the most useful, especially if they try to land and shield. Grounded Up B has actually been working for me as well. I feel like Up Smash or F Smash shouldn't really be reliable but I've gotten both to work out a couple of times.

I haven't tried Utilt yet, but thinking about it I feel it could work, especially against heavier characters or ones with larger hurtboxes, at least. Might be a useful way to get early Utilt strings + follow ups started, since Toon Link's jab isn't terribly slow and has okay range to intercept approaches with.
I've seen Toon Links short hop to Nair as an option out of Jab 2. Could be useful for trying to keep opponents out of your space if you're playing the heavy zoning game in the match up.
Has someone documented percentages for true follow-ups after Jab1? There are three hitboxes on it, only one has fixed knockback, and that hitbox has the lowest priority, meaning you'd have to hit with it at the absolute max range to prevent the others from outprioritizing it. That's great, because you want the hitboxes with knockback growth to register.

Its frame advantage increases as the opponent's damage goes up. It is heavily affected by fall speed, gravity, weight, and your own Rage. Much like with Jab follow-ups with Fox, you want the Jab1 to stun them for a while and then to gain extra frame advantage on their forced landing lag post-hitstun.

I've tested it with zero Rage and have confirmed that Jab1 -> D-Smash works on Ness, who is below-average in fall speed and gravity, after 70%. The timing is strict, but you have better frame advantage the higher the opponent's percent, so you'll have more leeway if they're at a higher percent. If you're too early, you'll just get Jab2, which isn't so bad. D-Smash is Frame 11, so getting Jab1 -> Standing Grab and Jab1 -> U-Smash should also be possible if you're up close (both being Frame 12).
The following lists every follow-up Toon can do out of Jab 1 on every character with a starting percent rounded to the nearest 5%. (I might get around to doing a finishing percent and getting percent specifics later, but from past experience, knowing how big this project is going to be, I'm taking this slowly for now).

It's all tested in 1/4 hold training mode (using my frame skip techniques) so any minor influence that rage and staleness might have on Jab 1 is not accounted for. I have assumed frame perfection on your part, so keep that in mind when considering how practical it is. Note that for any follow-up that requires an Attack/A-stick/C-stick/Grab input, there is no buffer window to make it easier.

As Reflex pointed out, there are three hitboxes on Jab 1. At the very tip of Jab 1 there is a hitbox with fixed knockback while the other two will increase in effectiveness the higher the opponent's percent.

Because however the other two hitboxes send the opponent at different trajectories, they yield different results, and so to distinguish them, I shall refer to them as HB1 (hitbox 1), and HB2 (hitbox 2). HB1 is located around Toon's hand, so you need to be close enough to the opponent that this hitbox connects and takes priority (it's by far the easiest to guarantee I've found), and it hits the opponent much more horizontally. HB2 is located in the middle of the sword and will hit the opponent more vertically than horizontally.

For Jab 1 to Jab 1 stuff, this requires you to Crouch Cancel between Jabs (as it saves a lot of frames). I'll refer to Crouch Cancelling a 'CC'. There are a few ways to CC, but my preferred method (seeing as I use the A-stick) is to hold the joystick down throughout and hit the A-stick diagonally (in any direction) with correct timing. Note that subsequent Jabs can be inputted on the frame after you start the crouch animation (so no, you don't have to be fully crouched, in fact that would just waste precious frames). In other words, while Jab 1 hits on frame 6, a CC Jab hits on frame 7 at best (which is still our fastest option). Note also that due to the hitboxes on Toon's Jab, you will not be able to keep the opponent in multiple Jab 1's (probably no more than 2), so try to finish with another follow-up (if available) as soon as it looks like they're getting out (otherwise just end it with Jab 2 and 3 or don't go for the second Jab at all). Finally just note that CCing is only necessary and is only helpful/beneficial if you want to do a Jab 1 to a Jab 1. Any other option at all can be done on the exact same frame that you can crouch on, so e.g. doing a Jab 1 > CC U-tilt would be stupid and unnecessary.

In order of how quickly they come out, these are our potential options out of Jab 1:
CC Jab: Frame 7
U-tilt: Frame 8
D-tilt: Frame 9
D-smash: Frame 9
Spin Attack: Frame 11
SH (forwards) Nair: Frame 11
Standing Grab: You'd be looking at like frame 15, minus a frame because it can't be shielded.
F-smash: Frame 15.

If an option doesn't work because it doesn't reach, (e.g. U-tilt, the first active frame of which has very poor reach), or because it misses for whatever reason (e.g. SH Nair going over people's heads due to their landing animation), or obviously if it can be avoided (e.g. by DJing before landing) it simply won't be mentioned.

I will not be testing beyond a reasonable percent, say, around 150% - 170% character dependent. So even if Jab to F-smash works at like 200%, I won't mention it.


If you have any further questions please ask.




Mario:
HB1 > CC Jab: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 90%

Luigi:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10% - 40%

Peach:
Nope.

Bowser:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > U-tilt: 90%
HB2 > U-tilt: 105%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 130%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 150%
HB2 > Up-B or Nair: 160%

Yoshi:
HB1 > CC Jab: 25%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 65%
HB1 > Nair: 100% (must be SH'd forwards obviously)

Rosalina:
Nope.

Bowser Jr:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%

Wario:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 110%

DK:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > U-tilt: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 70%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 120%
HB1 > Grab: 170%

Diddy:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 95%
HB2 > CC Jab: 110%

MG&W:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 50%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 80%

Lil Mac:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 60%
HB1 > Nair: 100%

Link:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB2 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 100%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB1 > Nair: 145%

Zelda:
Nope.

Sheik:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB2 > CC Jab: 145%

Ganon:
HB1 > CC Jab: 80%
HB2 > CC Jab: 105%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 125%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 145%

Toon:
HB1 > CC Jab: 20%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 60%
HB1 > Nair: 90%

Samus:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10%

ZSS:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB2 > CC Jab: 130%
HB1 > Nair: 145%

Pit / Dark Pit:
HB1 > CC Jab: 5%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 50%
HB1 > Nair: 90%
HB1 > F-smash or Grab: 160%

Palutena:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB2 > CC Jab: 110%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 110%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 150%
HB1 > Nair: 150%

Marth / Lucina:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 45%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 85%
HB1 > F-smash or Grab: 160%

Ike:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB2 > CC Jab: 85%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 120%

Robin:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 95%
HB1 > Nair: 130%

DHD:
HB1 > CC Jab: 10%
HB1 > U-tilt: 30%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 50%
HB1 > Up-B: 90%
HB1 > Grab: 150%
HB1 > F-smash: 165%

Kirby:
Nope.

DDD:
HB1 > CC Jab: 0%
HB2 > CC Jab: 30%
HB1 > U-tilt: 30%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 55%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 80%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 105%
HB2 > Up-B or Nair: 120%

MK:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%

Fox:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB1 > Nair: 140%
HB2 > CC Jab: 150%

Falco:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt or U-tilt: 105%
HB1 > Nair: 145%
HB2 > CC Jab: 145%

Pika:
HB1 > CC Jab: 65%
HB1 > D-smash: 105%

Charizard:
HB1 > CC Jab: 80%
HB2 > CC Jab: 100%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 125%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 135%
HB1 > Nair: 165%

Lucario:
HB1 > CC Jab: 35%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt 80%
HB1 > Nair: 125%

Jiggs:
Nope.

Greninja:
Technically the following are not guaranteed because of Shadow Sneak, but:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%

Rob:
HB1 > CC Jab: 55%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 105%
HB1 > Nair: 150%

Ness:
HB1 > CC Jab: 15%
HB1 > U-tilt: 35%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 55%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 90%

CF:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 120%
HB1 > Nair: 160%
HB2 > CC Jab: 160%

Villager:
HB1 > CC Jab: 15%
HB1 > U-tilt: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 60%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 95%

Olimar:
Nope.

Wii Fit:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 115%

Shulk Vanilla:
HB1 > CC Jab: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 125%

Shulk Jump
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > CC Jab 125%
HB1 > Nair: 160%

Shulk Speed
HB1 > CC Jab: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 125%

Shulk Shield
HB1 > CC Jab 180%

Shulk Buster
HB1 > CC Jab: 40%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 85%
HB1 > Nair: 125%

Hulk Smash
HB1 > CC Jab: 15%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 55%
HB1 > Nair: 95%
HB > Grab: 140%
HB1 > F-smash: 155%

Doc:
HB1 > CC Jab: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 90%

Pac:
Nope.

MM:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > CC Jab: 125%HB1 > Nair: 170%

Sonic:
HB1 > CC Jab: 55%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 95%

Mewtwo:
HB1 > CC Jab: 5%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 45%
HB1 > Nair: 80%
HB1 > Up-B: 95%
HB1 > F-smash or Grab: 145%

Lucas:
HB1 > CC Jab: 30%
HB1 > U-tilt: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 70%
HB1 > Up-B or Nair: 105%
HB1 > Grab: 150%
HB1 > F-smash: 165%

Roy:
HB1 > CC Jab: 70%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > CC Jab: 120%

Ryu:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 120%
HB2 > CC Jab: 140%

Brawler:
HB1 > CC Jab: 75%
HB2 > CC Jab: 100%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 115%
HB2 > D-smash/tilt: 140%
HB1 > Nair: 160%

Gunner:
HB1 > CC Jab: 45%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt or U-tilt: 90%
HB1 > Up-B: 135%

Sword:
HB1 > CC Jab: 50%
HB1 > D-smash/tilt: 100%
HB1 > Nair: 140%

They see me Rolling
Is Toon's roll useful now?
Apparently Toon is equal with the best dodges in the game. http://smashboards.com/threads/roll-air-dodge-frame-data.401323/
I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe we should consider doing more rolls/spotdodges/airdodges. [That really does sound stupid...]
Wow. Toon with the BEST roll in the game?? That'll take a while for me to fully internalize.

Looking at the Brawl frame data... lol, we had by far the largest jump in roll ranking.
Well his air dodge is amazing, but even if his roll is otherwise good it just doesn't go far enough to be very useful. The lack of distance really kills the point of moving while dodging.
Well, in addition to this, there's also the fact that most of our options out of a roll are relatively slow.

Getting the most damage out of favourable situations
There is always a 'best' way to do things, and essentially, finding the best way to play Toon is at the heart of what a metagame thread is all about. In the following posts you'll find a few ways to get the most damage out of certain scenarios.
I found a neat setup for toon link starting for most characters around 0-10% and working up til around 40-50% (compensating for weight class and fall speed, etc, so some values for certaincharacters would be different)

You can throw down and fast fall a bomb from above your opponent before you hit the ground, and immediately act on the ground into an uptilt (most of the time two utilts will work) which leads into most of TL's moves

[From this point he's talking about things you can do after the U-tilt]

For faster fallers I know that bair works when you start the combo around 15-25%, F-smash works from 10% and im not sure how high that goes, I know for a fact that it will only work properly on fox around 10+%, at 0 he falls too fast and hits the ground after the bomb hits, so I dont think you can hit him with the utilt cause im pretty sure he can shield

I know that jab, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, and nair work on fox at 10-20%, bair works on all characters and differing percent ranges (though for some characters the timing is a bit different so compensate for their weight class and fall speed), fair doesnt work since it's got too much startup lag (from what I understand)

using bair is a 0-25% guaranteed setup, fsmash is 0-40, nair is 0-20, dsmash is 0-27 if facing opponent, 0-21 if facing away
It's possible to cause a forced get-up without a platform with Toon Link. Just as a disclaimer, I've only had this work at very low percents (0-6 on Mario) but it does work.

So far I've found 2 ways to do this. The first is to jump cancel toss a bomb and immediately footstool them. The bomb puts them in the air so the footstool puts them in an untechable knockdown. From there immediately dair as soon as you can off the footstool. Because the percent is so low, the dair does not spike him and puts him in a 'locked' state. A strange side effect of using dair is that the windbox pushes him away. From this point I've found that a dash grab can connect despite the push. This does a cool 20% before the grab connects so a total of 20 + however much you can get off the grab.

The second way is a bit more tricky. You have to throw out the boomerang and footstool the opponent when the boomerang hits coming back. The main reason this is harder is because the boomerang catching animation can interrupt your attempt at footstooling. After the footstool everything works the same as before.
Well in case anyone is wondering I can confirm that this is legit. To clarify though, it stops working when Mario is on 6% before the JC bomb throw.

There is one big problem with this though. Both the character being footstooled and Toon have some control over which way the landing windbox pushes them, and if they get pushed off the edge of the stage or platform, they immediately regain control. Toon can move slightly left or right once the Dair connects while the opponent can move left and right after they are footstooled. It might end up being character specific, but with Mario at least, he has more control than Toon does, so he can deliberately drift towards the edge after being footstooled to get himself pushed off the edge. But that's not the worst of it. Characters with high aerial speed or who are floaty or who are just small can actually avoid the Dair altogether. To give you a idea, Toon can actually avoid it (just) by drifting behind the attacking Toon (Mario can't avoid it either way).

As for follow-ups, Dash attack is also possible. It does 8% while the throws do 7%, but then if you tacked on a single pummel for 2%, well yeah. Neither lead into anything else.

But then the potential follow ups will depend on the character you're versing.
For example, against a Bowser, you can do pretty much anything because he doesn't get sent that far away from you due to his weight.
E.g. you can actually land an F-smash on him into f-smash 2, for an inescapable combo that does 41%.
It is worth noting at this point that it will stop working when Bowser is on 9% before the JC throw.
Alternatively you can walk forward slightly and get Bowser in some U-tilts before he can shield.
How to get the most out of hitting the opponent with a boomerang?:
If you're holding a bomb and you throw a regular boomerang up close or even at a short/decent distance (a roll's distance away or even more depending on their percent) you can combo out of this if you immediately dash in and JC throw the bomb. A regular throw won't combo unless you're right up close which just doesn't happen all that often. At a short distance, not only will the JC throw ensure you get the combo, but it will put you in place for following this up for even more guaranteed damage.

Mario at 0%: at roughly a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to F-smash is so close to being guaranteed. If you do F-smash 1 early enough it will register as a combo, but then Mario will be too high for the second hit to combo, and if you delay the first hit so that the second f-smash combos, the first hit won't combo. If the character you're versing is even slightly less floaty, then this is without a doubt going to work. 33% reliable string.
Boomerang to JC throw to footstool to Dair is 28% but on Mario is doesn't lock as there was too much damage dealt by the boomerang, so that's as far as that combo goes.
Boomerang to JC throw to U-tilt obviously works, but at this percent you're not getting much out of it after that, unless someone else can find something. If you delay the U-tilt slightly you can still register it as a combo and get a second U-tilt to combo, but then Mario is still at too low of a percent to remain in hitstun for long enough to get a follow up after that. U-smash is really close though, and that would get you 35% all up.
This one could use a bit of work.

Mario at 25%: at roughly a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to U-tilt to U-air registers as a 31% 4 hit combo.
Let's see you top that XD.

Mario at 50%: more than a roll's distance or less, boomerang to JC throw to dash in U-air registers as a solid 26% 3 hit combo.
That's 1% extra than the Fair and it puts them above you.

Notes on Combos/Strings
Working out what combos at what percents.
A while back when the game wasn't yet out for Wii U, I started a list which showed at which percents u-tilt > u-air were true combos, it had the maximum percentages at which it would be a combo (training mode consecutive hit counter) and also the minimum percentage at which it would kill (in 3DS Final Destination).
I believe u-tilt > u-air for kills is a very important thing to keep in mind, for there is a small window (from minimum percent needed to kill to maximum percent to link utilt > uair while still being a combo) where tink can be lethal, and end a stock really early.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bZsVZNCaDm9sFWpG7h44L0A-K1iEkBhFlwfyEP3Vxrg/edit?usp=sharing

Also, falling u-air > u-air I believe is a thing at certain percentages according to the training counter. I'll confirm later, whenever I get back to testing. Edit: Confirmed. Tested against Mario in training, it seems to work until a percentage where you have to double jump to reach Mario, afterwards it's not guaranteed and the opponent can and will most likely jump out of it (or airdodge)
can you follow up any of the throws with airdodge canceled throw? Like up throw -> full hop -> airdodge throw -> double jump aerial
While I haven't been able to register the bomb throw as a consecutive hit yet [not that this would be definitive], I can tell you that it is pretty close. Atm, at the very least what we have here is a reliable string at lower percents (medium percents as well for fast fallers and heavy weights) that lets us do e.g. u-throw to FH instant bomb throw to any aerial. Against a character like Fox who is a fast faller and is a relative light-weight, you have a pretty reliable kill string from a grab at around 70% (just delay the U-air after the DJ slightly so that it hits when Fox is more towards the peak of the bomb blast knockback) or even lower with rage.
I found zair > pp [perfect pivot] > u tilt can combo to pretty high %s (btw that can be useful to get an u tilt string at low %s), and then I remembered, u tilt combos into up air for a kill at around 90% - 100%. So... yes... zair - pp - u tilt - up air is a true combo if performed correctly (i haven't tested on real people yet, just training mode so i don't know about how DI would affect it, other than that, it registers as a 3 hit true combo, from zair to up air). This looks like it could be very useful because zair is relatively easy to connect, it isn't exactly a dedede f smash, and this is a combo of around 95% to death beginning with a zair. And before anyone asks, this was tested on mario, I imagine it'll work on a majority of the cast, only failing on a few such as jiggz.

If anyone else is able to test for DI and maybe some other characters then I'd really appreciate it.

Edit: Just tested on jiggz, kills at 60/70% but no combo, zair - u tilt registers though
Utilt to uair kill is very common knowledge. Btw i wouldnt encourage people to try that zair utilt combo anyway. Its fully possible to pull off but Zair to pp utilt will only connect at high percent if theres no di and you hit the zair up his face. Been using these kind of comboes for many months.

Lets not discuss this here. Also remember its "advanced" tech thread.

Analysing Projectile Properties and In Game Strategies with them
Lest we forget. http://smashboards.com/threads/anal...rties-and-in-game-stategies-with-them.208562/
Any miscellaneous projectile stuff that doesn't quite need it's own section will go in here.
With toon link if you catch a boomerang while running you can instantly run in the other direction by flicking the control stick in the opposite direction of which you are running. Is this useful at all?
I might just make a general AT concerning the lag that can be avoided by catching the boomerang. In smash 4 the amount of time spent catching the boomerang is significantly less than it was in Brawl. In Brawl the idea was always to avoid the catching animation pretty much at all costs. There were some known ways that catching it could benefit you, such as cancelling the extreme landing lag of Dair, but beyond that, catching the boomerang was a hindrance.
Now however, we may want to re-think this.

Catching the boomerang takes only 9 frames in smash 4 (this is so for both the custom boomerangs as well), meaning that if timed/positioned right you can cut out lag from many other things.
Dair has 40 frames of landing lag, but we already knew that would be clearly beneficial.
Fair has 17 frames of landing lag, so catching the boomerang at the perfect time as you land can almost half your lag.
Uair has 21 frames of landing lag.
Bair has 22 frames of landing lag.
Nair has 12 frames of landing lag, so while technically you could shave off 3 frames, I don't think it's worth trying in practice.
Zair only has 8 frames of landing lag.
Airdodge has 21 frames of landing lag. This means that if you airdodge into the ground, airdodge then Zair, or airdodge then Zair while holding a bomb, you can cut out over half the landing lag if you catch the boomerang upon landing.
As for catching the boomerang while running to allow you to dash back in the opposite direction, if this is what you want to do, then the only alternatives out of a run are to do a dash turn or to dash back after a skid. A dash turn takes around 24 frames to really get going in the other direction while dashing back after a skid takes 19 frames, so there's a definite improvement there too if speed is what you're after. It would be better if this was thought of more generally though, so instead of just being a way to run back in the other direction, it should be thought of as the fastest way to return to neutral (with all options available including dash) out of a Run. You can of course do certain actions directly out of a Run however so catching the boomerang out of a Run will not be the fastest way to do everything out of a Run, just some things.

As for actually applying any of this, at this stage I think that the fast boomerang may actually be the way to go simply due to the fact that it always follows a direct path back in the direction it originally came from, and because of the fact that it will always require the same timing because the boomerang will always go forwards the same distance even if it hits, and because it's so fast meaning there's more chance of it being caught immediately after landing.

Actually this is pretty cool.
With the fast boomerang you can do stuff like smash throw forwards, immediate SH aerial (e.g. Fair) FF if necessary and you immediately catch the boomerang upon landing, and there really is a notable difference in lag.
You can also throw the boomerang forwards then run at it and do e.g. U-tilts/Jabs/F-smash forwards seemingly straight of a Run, which is pretty cool, and if you're using the fast boomerang it means you can always get in nice and close to the opponent for when you catch the boomerang.
Fast boomerang smash throw forwards to immediate backwards SH Airdodge to Zair let's us land with the 9 frames of boomerang catch lag, similar to our normal Zair landing lag, which bypasses the airdodge lag nonsense.
It's worth looking into imo.
Shovel the coal in the hype train, I found another arrow lock setup!

So basically, on bf you need them positioned between the middle of the stage and one of the lower platforms at around 100%. jcbt towards them, they can't jump before they hit the platform (until around 117%) and this can be very awkward to tech. The most likely case is: they try to jump away but can't and then miss the tech or they try to tech but fail. Assuming they miss the tech you can follow up with a short hop/full hop - uncharged arrow to lock them, follow that up with whatever you like, fully charged smash attack, up tilt - up air, rang - bomb - fair/up b, you can kinda just do your favourite, flashiest kill setup.

Edit: Alright, gonna start adding %s for all the chars now. Btw, this is all with neutral di and no rage, if you wanna see the %s with di/rage then do it yourself, I ain't doing that.

Mario: 101% - 118%
Luigi: 91% - 98%
Peach: 83% - 90%
Bowser: 111% - 120%
Yoshi: 96% - 102%
RosaLuma: 78% - 86%
I've read up on a good portion of what has been discussed so far and I thought I would share this bit of the arrow lock. It's fun using this against players who don't recover/tech out of it


Grabs and Throws
Toon isn't exactly known for his amazing grab/throw game, except of course that Back-throw is a kill throw. So other than killing with B-throw, what do we have, and how can we get grabs in the first place?
I see so much stuff in the Skype chat about how terrible Gay's throws are, but his throws are underrated imo. Sure none of them combo, but you can get some good stuff out of them with reads and mix-ups. Like after fthrowing you can chase after the opponent to see what they do, and if they don't jump away you can usually re-grab (especially at low %s where there's less time to react) depending on the character and what they do.
With dthrow you can limit the opponent's landing options by tossing a boomerang behind you after the throw (which can sometimes hit the opponent at low %s and give enough hitstun to re-grab), and if the opponent does a poor job landing you can regrab. You can also instead bait an airdodge by empty jumping at the opponent after the dthrow, leading the opponent open to get re-grabbed. If the opponent doesn't airdodge when you jump (if they're any good they would've learned not to airdodge from the first dthrow) you can instead hit them with an aerial.
Uthrow imo should be used more sparingly than fthrow and dthrow so the opponent isn't prepared for it, that way you can go for a uair and have it be more likely that the uair will actually connect.
So yeah, with proper mix-ups you can still get a lot out of Gay's throws. They're not that bad, people just need to be more creative with them.
Full hop fair/bair aerial catch zdrop fastfall grab.
Returning boomerangs are also good for getting grabs.

Shield-Stun Stuff
Ok, this needs to be discussed in more detail:
The bomb to double Nair does 2/3 shield damage, so if the opponent's shield is lowish, you can run up, SH bomb down throw, continue to drift into them and buffer a Nair, and if they shield the bomb, they will be forced against their will to shield the first hit of Nair, at which point they will have two options and two options only: either get hit by the second hit of Nair (and leave with their shield even further depleted), or get their shield broken. Sickness.
I should clarify something first up. I looked at the above in more detail and in order to replicate what it says exactly in the space of a SH there is only a 1 frame window to throw the bomb down (keep reading till the next block of text though). To explain, if you throw the bomb down so it starts on frame 15 of your SH, the first hit of Nair won't lock the opponent in their shield as it will hit 1 frame too late (essentially giving them two options; get hit by the first hit of Nair, or shield it). If you throw the bomb down so that it starts on frame 16 of your SH, everything is absolutely perfect; this is the sweet-spot where you get the bomb to Nair lock out of a SH and you get the second hit of Nair being used on the last frame of your air time so that it gets maximum frame advantage. If you throw the bomb down so that the throw starts on frame 17 of the SH, the second hit of Nair won't come out in time.
In other words, as crazy as this is, it will require frame precision to use.

Arguably there is in fact a 3 frame window to throw the bomb down. When you think about it, the rules haven't changed if you throw the bomb down one or two frames earlier (i.e. frame 14 or 15). The opponent can choose to either get hit by the first or second hit of Nair or get their shield broken. No other option is available to them once the bomb hits their partially depleted shield. So I guess I'm ok with that. We pull off stuff that requires 3 frame precision all the time without knowing it, like power-shielding for instance.


If you just want to definitely lock the opponent in their shield with the bomb to Nair, that's easy, just throw the bomb down at around the peak of the SH, no precision required. You won't get the second hit of Nair, but then maybe their shield was super low and you intended to break it, so that still works and is easy.

In the patch thread I alluded to the possibility of using a FH method if the SH method didn't work. The SH method works, I mean it could be easier, but it only covers approaches on the ground.

The FH method is not difficult, though I'm yet to find a good setup for it. Essentially you just throw the bomb down beside an opponent's shield (without fast falling) as you're coming down from, well anything really. It doesn't actually have to be a FH, it can be after you got hit way up in the air or something. You just want to start it low enough so that the first hit of Nair hits their shield, but not too low otherwise the second hit of Nair won't come out in time (or you'll get hit by the explosion).
With this method you can potentially have safe landings depending on the opponent's shield-health and where you are in the air in relation to them (because obviously you want to be able to throw the bomb just beside their shield and be able to drift right in on top of them so that you land behind their shield with the second hit of Nair to better ensure your safety in case the shield doesn't break).

To sum it all up, this literally means that Toon can threaten and beat partially depleted shields while holding a bomb. What kind of a topsy-turvey world are we living in?
Can JC throw into up smash lock them in shield if you JC throw so it hits the ground next to their shield? Maybe with the neutral throw since it doesn't go as far?
Yeah, the JC throw part is unnecessary and makes it so the bomb explosion gets in the way etc. If you just do a standard throw then dash after immediately and the bomb lands infront of a shield, then dash attack will hit their shield before they can drop it. U-smash is too slow though, as is everything else.
This could be useful if someone's shield is really low.


What now? Contribute of course!

You can add something on to a previous discussion ^ or you can create a new topic of conversation. So if you have anything to share, go for it! Note that there are some things that have been discussed in this thread that have not yet been given their own topic, so it wouldn't hurt to have a read through some of the more recent posts at least to get an idea of some potential future topics that you could contribute to.

If you don't have anything to contribute atm, then feedback about this thread is also nice to hear.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Toon's Bottomless Bag of ATs and Tricks

I intend to keep this post as updated and as informative as my previous AT lists. The discussion in this thread will lead to new developments of known ATs and discoveries of new ATs, and all that information will be concisely noted in this post.

If you think you've found a new AT or trick, then this is the place to post it. I would be happy to discuss it, research it, test it and if it all works out, add it to the list. One word of warning; I don't want any posts about future patches removing ATs or tricks. I'm not interested and this is not the place to discuss that.
If I have left anything out including an AT or trick or I have forgotten to say something about one of them, then let me know and I'll fix it. And finally, give me feedback! Did this help you? Did you learn anything? Whatever comes to mind.

Note that the bolded and underlined techs with the red '(Must Know)' next to them are the ones that have proven to be useful and are commonly used at a high level of play and therefore should be learnt. This does not mean that the other ones are useless; it might just mean that they are considered too difficult or situational or unnecessary. This has been done so that if you're picking up Toon, you can prioritise which techs to learn.

I will update this thread every time a new AT or Trick comes out, so if you discover something that isn't on this list or you've found an improvement to something on this list, then let me know what it is and I'll gladly update.



Changes from the previous Toon AT list.

Other than the fact that the techniques below will be different or work slightly differently as this is obviously a new game, I wanted to make a fresh start to the way I format everything.

To begin with, you'll notice that there is no list of stages that the tech can be performed on, no usefulness rating and no credit. I'm willing to consider bringing these features back, but I have left them out for now as they have caused me some problems in the past that don't have anything to do with time or effort. If there is need to mention the specific stages, this will be found somewhere relevant in the explanation.
You will also notice that the classic 'How to Perform:' followed by 'Effect:' is now switched and changed to 'Description:' followed by 'How to Perform:'. The reasoning behind this is that the former works better for a kind of cataloguing process, while the later works better for actually explaining the tech to someone. There's no point talking about what button inputs are happening if the person doesn't first have an idea of what those inputs are meant to be achieving.
I have kept the general layout from the old Toon AT thread, but everything has been re-researched and re-written to make sure that everything is accurate.

I have taken quite a few liberties, no more than I did previously, by way of naming things. A lot of the time, the changes made to names of things have been purely for the sake of fitting in with the more universal smash language found in the smash dictionary.

I hope these changes make sense to you, but just know that I am always open to persuasion if you have anything you'd like to bring up.



Index

Bombs
Z-Dropping Techs
Sliding Techs
Bomb Catching Techs
Spiking Techs
While Holding a Bomb Techs

Boomerang
Momentum Shifting Techs
Gliding
Minimising Lag
The In-between Angles

Arrows
Momentum Shifting Techs
Arrow Locking

Sword Play
Up-special Techs
Nair Techs
Dair Techs
Uair Techs
Dash Attack Techs

General
Running/Pivoting Techs
Grabbing Techs
Zair/Tether Techs
Ledge/Edge Techs




Bombs

Z-Drop
Description: Toon will drop a Bomb. So long as the Bomb is purposefully dropped and not thrown and so long as the Bomb remains 'active' (which just means that it will explode if it touches an enemy hurtbox), then regardless of whether Zair comes out at the same time or not, this is a Z-drop.
How to Perform: While holding a Bomb, hit the grab button in mid-air while keeping the joystick in neutral.
Note: As has been alluded to, it is possible to Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out. In order to do this, you must hit the grab button while holding a Bomb immediately following: a SH or FH (known as an 'instant z-drop'), a Ledge jump (known as a 'ledge jump z-drop'), a Footstool, an Aerial, hitstun or the tumble state (depending on how much knockback you receive), being trumped, dropping through a platform, or you must hit the grab button just before an edge cancel, during a skid followed by falling off the edge, on the frame before grabbing the ledge, or on the first landing frame.

Instant Z-Drop (Must Know)
Description: Toon will Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out as he leaves the ground from jumping.
How to Perform: While holding a Bomb, press the Jump button, then as Toon is coming out of the Jump squat animation and just before he actually leaves the ground (frame 5 of the jump-squat animation), press the Grab button while keeping the joystick in neutral.
Note: Yes, you only have a 1 frame window to do this on. If you hit grab on frame 4 you'll get a JC throw, and if you hit grab on frame 6 you'll get the usual Zair + Z-drop. If you re-catch the Bomb with an aerial immediately after dropping it, this would be an IZAC. If you Z-drop the Bomb within the opponent's hurtbox, the Bomb will immediately explode on them, and since Z-dropping is lagless and the Bomb explosion doesn't hurt you when activated by an opponent's hurtbox, this leaves you free to combo out of the Bomb explosion with an aerial. Otherwise, you can simply Z-drop it beside them which will explode on the ground a moment later after you're out of range, and this explosion can similarly be used to combo.


Ledge Jump Z-Drop (Must Know)
Description: Toon will do a ledge jump and leave behind a Z-dropped Bomb without doing Zair while in the ledge jump animation.
How to Perform: While holding a Bomb, hang on to the ledge, press the Jump button then immediately hit the Grab button making sure the joystick is in neutral. Unlike the Instant Z-drop, the timing for hitting Grab to Z-drop the bomb is very easy. It can be done instantly after hitting jump or while Toon is in the middle of his flip animation so long as his hands are still on the ledge and of course anywhere in-between. Regardless of your timing, the bomb will always be dropped on the exact same frame, the frame that Toon's hands leave the ledge.
Note: Ledge jump Z-drops can be useful for dropping a bomb off-stage to hit people who are recovering behind you while you get off the ledge which can potentially stage spike them, or to hit people who are simply standing too close to the edge when you ledge jump. It is most effective when used after tethering to the ledge as you can act immediately after grabbing the ledge from a tether and the ledge jump can be buffered to ensure very easy frame perfection.


Airdodge Cancelled Z-Drop
Description: Toon will cancel the initial frames of an airdodge into a Z-drop resulting in the Bomb being dropped behind him rather than in front on him.
How to Perform: While holding a Bomb, Airdodge, then immediately hit the grab button or alternatively hold the airdodge button and immediately hit the attack button.
Note: The use of this tech is clearly going to be rather limited as you are basically resigning yourself to the lag of airdodge all for the sake of Z-dropping the Bomb slightly differently. There are some uses for this tech however. The first is for being able to z-drop a bomb much sooner than normal after an airdodge. Normally you cannot z-drop a bomb after an airdodge until the animation is completely over. Trying to do so will result in a bomb throw. However, if you airdodge, then the moment you can act you do another airdodge, then immediately cancel that second airdodge with a z-drop, this is a way of getting around the problem. It can be used to cover landings as a means of getting a hitbox out instantly after an airdodge as you land. This can potentially save you, but it should not be used haphazardly because if your opponent simply shields out of a run you will leave yourself open for a potentially greater punishment. One other use is simply to z-drop a bomb onto a platform as you run off it. This takes advantage of the fact that the bomb is dropped behind you rather than in front of you.

C4 (Must Know)
Description: Toon will Z-drop a Bomb close to the ground/platform such that it doesn't explode when it lands and instead will sit there being inactive until it explodes due to the fuse on the Bomb running out.
How to Perform 1: Z-drop a Bomb just before you land on the stage or a platform. If it explodes on top of you, you need to z-drop it later; if you land and throw it, you've pressed grab too late. You have a 3 frame window to do this out of a SH, but only 2 frames out of a SH buffered Bomb Pull.
How to Perform 2: Jump up through a platform and Z-drop the Bomb on your way through at the right time such that the Bomb is directly on top of the platform when it is dropped.
How to Perform 3: Fall through a platform, quickly return the joystick to neutral, and Z-drop the Bomb as soon as you can. It should land perfectly on the platform.
Note: There are few a reasons why you'd want to do a C4. First of all there is the possibility of using it to combo out of when the fuse runs out. The gain is probably minimal, but what's important here is not how much extra damage you're likely to do, but the fact that your opponent will perceive the Bomb sitting there as a threat or potential trick/trap that will make them think twice about approaching until it's gone, giving you a chance to set up. The C4 can also be used at the start of an opponent's fresh stock to give them something to do while their invincibility runs out; people can't resist a free item, especially if it lets them do that one tech they've been waiting to do but otherwise unable to do, only to find out that they have a second or two to do it before it explodes. By picking the item up, they not only waste time, but restrict their options and even potentially get hit by it themselves. Once you have the Bomb on the ground you can choose to pick it back up with a quick aerial then follow up with a bomb throw. It can also be used as a temporary shield against certain projectiles because the Bomb has a small amount of health it can use to absorb attacks before it is forced to explode.
Because it is sometimes difficult to C4 a bomb straight onto the ground, it can be made easier by buffering the z-drop after using an aerial. For example, if you SH and instantly Nair, picking up or catching a bomb as you do, you can buffer a z-drop before you land and it will always do a perfect C4. Other methods will rely on doing a FH onto a platform with an instant aerial, and the aerial used will depend on the distance to the platform.
Note that if you manage to Z-drop the bomb on the frame you land, you will not receive the extra landing lag of the Zair and will have done a 'lagless C4'. To see that you have done this correctly, try holding in the grab button so that you buffer shield and see if you can spot the difference. Using the SH buffered Nair buffered Z-drop method will automatically give you this lagless variation. It's the difference between 5 or 8 frames of landing lag so you know.


Short Hop Bomb Drop
Description: Toon will SH Bomb pull and then Z-drop the bomb on the ground (all in the one SH).
How to Perform: The timing for this is strict (a two frame window to input the z-drop). You must SH then instantly Pull out a Bomb (it must be basically at the exact same time) then make sure you input the Z-drop just before you land (any sooner or latter will cause Toon to throw the Bomb).
Note: It is the most efficient way to C4 a bomb and with practice, the 2 frame window is doable.

Airdodge Cancelled Edge C4
Description: Toon will run off the edge of a platform/stage and leave behind a C4 Bomb right on the edge while he continues to fall and does a Zair.
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Run towards the edge of a platform, then as soon as you run off the edge of the platform, Instantly return the joystick to neutral and Hit Airdodge and the grab button (or alternatively hold the aidodge button and hit the attack button).
Note: This is one interesting use for the Airdodge Cancelled Z-drop. Note that you will of course have to deal with the airdodge lag when you land while doing the Zair.

Slope Bombing
Description: Toon will drop a bomb on the slope without it exploding, the bomb will slowly tumble down the hill and still be 'active'.
How to Perform: Face a slope or slanted platform facing towards the higher end, then either Z-drop the Bomb immediately after you jump or just before you land.
Note: While the Bomb is tumbling, if your opponent touches the bomb it will blow up, if the bomb touches your opponent's shield in this state the bomb will jump up vertically, and if you get in the way of the Bomb, it will stop tumbling.

The Bouncy Bomb
Description: Toon will C4 a Bomb which will land and jump around on the spot and remain 'active'.
How to Perform: First of all you need to be on a stage that either has the screen moving up and the stage moving down or a stage that has some platform that is moving downwards. Then it's a simple matter of C4ing a Bomb on that platform that is moving down relative to the stage's camera.
Note: When the Bomb is bouncing around on the spot, the Bomb is active. This means that if an opponent touches it, it will explode on them. This means you can set up traps that the opponent will have to avoid if they know about it and it gives you the option of comboing out of it. Now as you'd imagine, this is going to be rather stage specific. It works on the windmill of Windy Hill Zone when its turning anti-clockwise, and it will work on any stage with transformations that move you vertically such that the stage is dropping relative to the camera such as Mushroom Kingdom U.

JC Throw (Must Know)
Description: Toon will Dash/Run then slide and throw the bomb.
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, run in one direction, Jump then instantly hit the C-stick upwards forwards or backwards (alternatively you can just use the joystick to point in the desired direction and use any button to throw the Bomb).
Note: JC simply stands for Jump Cancel. Note that if you use the C-stick (set to smash) to throw the Bomb, you can use the new C-stick mechanics to buffer a Dash out of the JC throw on the first frame possible. Simply hold the C-stick for a brief period in the direction you throw the Bomb (slightly longer than just flicking the C-stick) and continue to hold the Joystick in the desired direction you want to Dash in, and the perfect Dash input will be buffered automatically for you so that you Dash out of the JC throw on the first frame possible. It is also one of the most important techs for you to be able to do, as it essentially allows you to use your good standing throw frame data out of a run to replace your horrendous dash throw frame data.


TC Throw
Description: Toon will Run, briefly turn and face the other way, then throw the Bomb back in the original direction he was running and get a small boost and a slide in that direction.
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, Run in one direction, Hit the Joystick back in the opposite direction to which you are running then immediately (and at the same time) Hit the Grab button and Hit the Joystick back in the original direction in which you were running. (Yes, you must use the Grab button.)
Note: The Turnaround Cancel Throw is similar to a JC Throw Forwards. There are only a couple of differences. For starters it is way easier to do a light standing throw with the JC throw and likewise it is easier to do a smash throw with the TC throw. (If you want to do a light throw with the TC throw you'll have to Hit the Grab button and lightly tilt the joystick in the direction of the initial run at the same time, and if you don't tilt enough it won't work at all.) The other very interesting difference is that the timing of the TC throw is noticeably delayed when compared to the JC throw. Both of these differences will allow you to mix up your timing (which can be very off-putting). Just like the JC throw you will have a very small amount of lag compared to the long and terrible lag of a dash throw, and just like the JC throw you will get a nice slide in the direction of your throw. The TC throw only works in the one direction; the direction of your initial run. You can't throw the Bomb upwards or downwards out of a turnaround (you know, unless you do a JC throw), and while you can throw it backwards out of a turnaround you don't get the same boost or slide and besides, this can just be done with the attack button, so it's not the same thing.

Slingshot Bomb Throw
Description: Toon will Run and do a 'Dash Turn' then slide while throwing a Bomb (the slide will be further then the JC throw).
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, Run in one direction, Hold the Joystick in the opposite way to which you are running so that Toon goes into the slow turn-around animation, continue to hold that direction for a short period just after Toon has completed the turn then throw the Bomb in whatever direction you want. (You can also do a JC throw to make the slide even longer).
Note: The root of this tech is the Slingshot, that is, the slide you get out of a Dash Turn. See the Slingshot below.

ZAC
Description: Toon will Z-drop a bomb without Zair coming out then catch it with an aerial.
How to Perform: See 'Z-drop' above for the different ways to Z-drop a Bomb without doing a Zair. Note that some of the variations, such as Z-dropping the Bomb immediately after doing a SH or FH, will actually count as doing an IZAC (below) if you manage to instantly catch the Bomb while rising. The ZAC on the other hand has always been inherently easier to perform as you have more time because the Bomb is Z-dropped either while falling or at around the time when you start to fall.
Note: This allows you to use aerials while holding a bomb. This is good because it means you can follow up with a bomb throw. You'd want to z-drop the bomb either as you are coming out of hitstun or as an aerial is ending if you still have time before you land, allowing you to (DJ and) catch the bomb with another aerial.

IZAC
Description: Toon will Z-drop a bomb while rising out of a SH or FH (such that Zair doesn't come out) and then he will immediately catch the bomb with an aerial while still rising.
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, Jump then (with the joystick in neutral) quickly Tap the grab button to Z-drop the bomb on frame 5, i.e. the last frame of your jumpsquat (which will z-drop the bomb without Zair coming out), Instantly let go of the grab button, then Instantly catch the Bomb with an aerial.
Note: It is very important that you Z-drop the Bomb at the right time; too early will cancel the jump (resulting in a JC Throw), too late and you'll Zair. It is also extremely important that you are not still pressing the grab button when you use an aerial otherwise Toon will Zair, which can often be mistaken for an incorrectly timed z-drop. You can try tapping or flicking the grab button to make sure you're only pressing it for a split second, whatever works for you. If you do manage to master this tech it means that you can use instant aerials regardless of whether you are holding a bomb or not, making you that much more threatening to approach while you're holding a bomb and making your spam to sword game that much more flexible. You have been warned though, this is very difficult. I'd advise you start out by learning the Instant Z-drop timing.

PIZAC
Description: Toon will stand on a platform holding a Bomb, drop through the platform and perform an aerial which will catch the Bomb.
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb and stand on a platform, hit the joystick part of the way down, just enough so that it makes Toon drop through the platform, then immediately release the joystick to let it return to neutral, then instantly Tap the Grab button and immediately release it (if done quick enough Zair won't come out), then instantly catch the Bomb (which would have otherwise simply sat on the platform) with an aerial.
Note: The key to this is timing. If you blow yourself up, it's because you hit grab too early and cancelled the drop-through with a Bomb throw down (at your feet); if you blow yourself up and you see a white flash, that's because you held down for too long and threw the bomb down as you passed through the platform. If you find yourself doing a Zair then this is either because you were too late hitting grab or you were still holding grab when you went to use an aerial. Because of this, I recommend practising without the aerial for a while to just C4 the Bomb onto the platform without doing a Zair so that you can rule the former mistake out. If you just throw the bomb forwards this either means that you messed up hitting down entirely or somehow you were actually too quick letting go of down and also too quick hitting grab (highly unlikely but theoretically possible).

Instant Bomb Throw (Must Know)
Description: Toon will catch and instantly throw the Bomb (or any other item for that matter, naturally).
How to Perform: Catch (or pick up) a Bomb by Hitting Airdodge, then instantly cancel the airdodge with a Bomb throw in any direction (can be thrown with the c-stick or anything you please).
Note: You don't have to worry about any airdodge landing lag if you instantly cancel an airdodge with an item throw, so that's always nice. You can do this move to a Bomb that you threw up in the air, or to a Bomb that has been C4'd, or you can do it to a Bomb that has been shielded, etc. Where this tech truly shines however is in throwing back item projectiles from the opponent. If you play a character like Toon, it is expected that you will have superior item control, and so this is one of those techs you'll need up your sleeve.


SHDB (Short Hop Double Bomb)
Description: Toon will SH, Throw a Bomb, then instantly catch and throw a second Bomb using the Instant Bomb Throw technique.
How to Perform: There is the platform variation and the non-platform variation. You can either C4 a Bomb on a platform just above you (e.g. one of the side platforms on BF) and then so long as you start this tech beneath it, the Bomb will be there for you to insta-throw, otherwise you'll have to Pull out a Bomb, Tilt Throw it Up, Pull out another Bomb, SH, Throw the Bomb, then catch the second Bomb with an Instant Bomb Throw.
Note: This all has to be done really quickly except for the SH Bomb throw because if you do that too quickly you will JC Throw. An example of another variation you could try is, you Pull out a Bomb, Smash throw it up, Instantly Full Hop, Instantly Pull out another Bomb on your way up, Double Jump, throw the Bomb, catch the other Bomb with the Instant Bomb throw (All done quickly). This variation is less punishable, but it means that you are very high up without your double jump, so I would recommend that you throw the Bombs down if your opponent starts to close in. In fact that's something that should be noted; you can throw the Bombs in any direction you want, not necessarily forwards and not necessarily in the same direction either.

Bomb Fake Out (Must Know)
Description: Essentially this tech involves throwing the Bomb either backwards or Forwards and then finding ways and situations in which Toon can re-catch it. Depending on what it is caught with will depend on whether you choose to re-throw the Bomb again or simply settle with an aerial while holding a Bomb.
How to Perform 1: Pull out a Bomb, Jump Backwards, Throw the Bomb Backwards at the peak of your Jump then instantly re-catch it with an aerial or an airdodge (which can be instantly cancelled into another throw or turned into a Zair while holding a Bomb if you so choose).
How to Perform 2: Pull out a Bomb, Jump Backwards or Forwards, Throw the Bomb in the direction you are drifting just before you land, then Instantly Dash in the direction of the Bomb, quickly Jump and re-catch it with an aerial or an airdodge.
How to Perform 3: While holding a Bomb, Jump Backwards or Forwards, Throw the Bomb in the direction you are drifting just before you touch the ground, then dash Forwards and catch the Bomb with a Dash Attack.
How to Perform 4: While holding a Bomb Dash Forwards, do a JC Throw Forwards then Dash Forwards again on the first actionable frame, then either Jump and catch the Bomb with an aerial or an airdodge, or continue running and catch it with a Dash Attack.
How to Perform 5: While holding a Bomb Dash Forwards, do a JC Throw Forwards then catch the Bomb with a Jab on the first actionable frame.
How to Perform 6: This method only applies to Toon's Custom Bombs as they don't get thrown as far. Pull out a Bomb, Jump Forwards, Throw the Bomb Forwards at the peak of your Jump then instantly re-catch it with an aerial or an airdodge.
Note: Because it is now much more difficult to Z-drop a Bomb without Zair coming out, the BFO has risen to prominence as an effective way to use aerials while holding a Bomb as a replacement for the ZAC. The BFO also works much better in this game because of the fact that if the Bomb blows up because it hits the opponent, Toon won't be damaged by the blast, something which had really hindered the effectiveness of this tech in Brawl because of the fact that a lot of it depends on being close to the bomb within its blast radius if it should hit the opponent. This is the new and surprisingly effective way to stay flashy, so learn this if you want to be cool.


Running Item Pick Up
Description: Toon will Dash towards the Item on the ground, then instead of using his Dash Attack to pick the Item up, he will reach down, pick it up and slide a little.
How to Perform: C4 a Bomb or have any other item on the ground, Run towards it, then just as you're right on top of it, Put the Joystick in neutral then Hit the attack button.
Note: This cannot be done out of the initial Dash animation, Toon has to be actually Running. It is essential that the Joystick is in neutral before you Hit the attack button, otherwise Toon will just pick the item up with his Dash Attack.This could be useful to us because our Dash attack is kinda laggy and this way of picking things up is much quicker.

The Safe Spike
Description: Toon will get hit by the blast of his bomb, then as soon as the hitstun wears off, right before the knockback wears off, he'll use Dair off stage but instead of falling to his death, he will slowly fall down, allowing you to recover once the dair animation has ended.
How to Perform 1: Pull out a bomb, Run towards the edge, Jump, throw the bomb down at the ground just as your falling back down or throw it down on your way up, then Dair.
How to Perform 2: Pull out a bomb, Hang on the ledge, Hit away from the ledge, instantly throw the bomb back at the ledge (making sure you've run out of invincibility frames by this point), Dair.
How to Perform 3: Pull out a bomb, Run off the edge, throw the bomb back at the ledge, Dair.
How to Perform 4: Pull out a Bomb, Jump out off stage or face away from the edge, let the fuse run out and get hit by the timed explosion (best when using the short fuse Bombs), Dair.
Note: Straight up I'm going to warn you that the timing for this has been made much more tricky which in turn means that this tech is much more risky. What I mean by this is that because smash 4 has more hitstun than Brawl, there is a smaller window of opportunity in which you can Dair while still retaining momentum from the blast. If you're going to attempt this, I would recommend you stay on the safe side and input Dair slightly sooner than you'd expect it to come out so as to avoid the plummet. When Toon is slowly falling the Dair, the initial hit of Dair still has the same spiking power; the only difference is that he falls slower. Note that different methods and different bombs will require more or less percentage in order to make this work. If you don't get hit hard enough, it is impossible to do the safe spike.

The Bomb Spike
Description: The blast of the bomb will go through the stage and hit your opponent up into the stage, resulting in a stage spike.
How to Perform: Simply make a bomb explode on the ground near the edge when an opponent is under the ledge, not hanging on without invincibility frames.
Note: This will work on most stages so long as the stage is solid, the edges are roughly at a 45 degree angle or even more horizontal, and so long as the opponent is under the stage itself and not hanging onto the ledge. Having said that, the opponent can still be stage spiked on the right kind of stage while they are hanging on the ledge so long as the bomb hits them on the side furthest away from the stage as the blast will hit them towards the stage. This isn't a bomb spike in the strictest sense as the blast is not going through the stage itself, but it is still a bomb causing a stage spike.

Zair/Tether while holding a Bomb (Must Know)
Description: Toon will use his Zair or Tether without throwing or dropping the bomb.
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, jump, airdodge, then hit the Grab button (alternatively, hold the airdodge button then hit the attack button).
Note: Zair while holding a Bomb has been nerfed because of the fact that you still get the lag from the airdodge when you land if the Zair animation is still happening; the lag transfers over. Being able to use Tether while holding a Bomb however is still a necessary tech to know and you won't experience any negative side effects.





Boomerang

Side-special Reversal
Description: Toon will Jump either Forwards or Backwards, then immediately Reverse his momentum (sort of like a mid-air bounce off nothing) and turn around to face the other way while throwing the boomerang.
How to Perform: Jump either Forwards or Backwards, Hit Forward special, instantly (within 4 frames) hit Backwards.
Note: All these momentum shifting techniques have their specific uses depending on whether you want to retreat or approach in any given situation. So for example with this one you can jump backwards toward an opponent and then bounce back away from them while throwing a boomerang at them. This can be done with a tilt-thrown as opposed to a smash-thrown boomerang too. To do this simply tilt the joystick when throwing the boomerang then hit the opposite direction as normal. Note also that this technique can be done along the ground to some very small extent only instead of jumping, you run forwards and then the input is the same.

Wavebounce
Description: Toon will Jump either Forwards or Backwards, Reverse his momentum but not the way he is facing and throw the boomerang (though in truth, you are changing the way you are facing twice very quickly so it simply appears as if you haven't changed the direction you were facing).
How to Perform: Jump either Backwards or Forwards, Hit Backwards special, instantly (withing 4 frames) hit Forwards (that is, 'forwards' in relation to the direction you were originally facing when you jumped).
Note: See above notes, only, in the example where you use it to fade away from the opponent while throwing the boomerang, obviously you'd want to jump forwards with this tech instead of backwards.

Running Side-special Reversal
Description: Toon will run in one direction, Reverse his momentum resulting in a small slide, Turn around and Throw the Boomerang back in the direction he just came from.
How to Perform: Run in one direction, Hit Forward special then instantly Hit Backwards.
Note: The effect will not be as impressive when doing the Running Side-special Reversal compared to doing it in the air. Something to remember, different surfaces have more or less grip than others, so the sliding effect will slightly differ between stages. Avoid grass. -that's just a general tip for real life as well.

Running Wavebounce
Description: Toon will run in one direction, Reverse his momentum resulting in a small slide, and throw the boomerang in the same direction he was originally running.
How to Perform: Run, Hit Backwards special then instantly hit the joystick in the direction you were originally running.
Note: See above notes.

Zero Lag Catch (Must Know)
Description: Toon won't stop what he's doing to put the boomerang away.
How to Perform: Throw out a Boomerang, then as it comes back, to cancel out the lag, simply do Anything But stand there, jump and do nothing, or run/walk/pivot.
Note: It's not as big of a deal in this game because the lag from catching a rang has been heavily reduced, but any lag is bad lag.


Catch Lag Replacement (Must Know)
Description: Toon will stop what he's doing to put the boomerang away, and the small amount of lag from catching the boomerang will replace a greater amount of lag that you would have otherwise experienced.
How to Perform: Throw out a Boomerang, perform a certain action and put yourself in the direct path of the returning boomerang such that you will catch it.
Note: This seemingly contradictory tech is the result of the boomerang catch being much less laggy in smash 4. While the zero lag catch tech tells you to avoid the boomerang catch, this tech tells you that there are some circumstances in which catching the boomerang is actually beneficial. Catching any of the 3 boomerangs gives you 9 frames of lag in which you can do nothing, so the idea is to replace laggier situations with the 9 frames of lag. For example, you can replace the landing lag of aerials with the boomerang catch lag. Dair has 40 frames of landing lag, Fair has 17, Bair 22, Uair 21 and Nair 12. If you land with Fair then immediately catch the boomerang, you will almost half the amount of time in which you can do nothing. You can also replace the landing lag of Airdodge in the same way which is 21 frames of landing lag, and the same is of course true for when you cancel airdodge with Zair and land with that instead as the 21 frames of airdodge lag carries over to the Zair. Zair normally has 8 frames of landing lag, so getting 9 frames of landing lag after doing an airdodge Zair effectively cancels out the airdodge landing lag nonsense. Catching the boomerang out of a Run is also the fastest way to return to neutral out of a Run with all your options available. Some actions can be done directly out of a run, but many cannot such as Jab or U-tilt or even a new Dash back in the opposite direction, so by deliberately running into and catching the boomerang, you will be able to use these options after only 9 frames as opposed to 19 frames from doing these actions out of a skid.
As far as the practical application of this tech is concerned, at this stage I believe that the fast boomerang takes advantage of this tech the best due to the fact that it will always return in a straight path back in the direction from whence it came meaning it will not follow you up out of a SH and end up going over your head, and due to the fact that it will always take the same amount of time for the boomerang to return because it will continue to go forwards even if it hits the opponent, and finally due to the fact that it returns so quickly meaning that there are more chances of you cutting out the maximum amount of lag regardless of your timing. Some examples of practical applications are smash throwing the fast boomerang forwards on the ground then immediately doing a SH aerial, fast falling, landing in what would otherwise be lag but instead immediately catching the boomerang upon landing. Or you could smash throw the fast boomerang forwards on the ground again, immediately SH backwards and airdodge, Zair at any point (can be done while holding a bomb) then landing only you'll immediately catch the boomerang which will replace the airdodge landing lag. The fast boomerang is also really great for canceling the run animation due to the fact that it always goes through the opponent, meaning that you can catch it right up close to the opponent where options like U-tilt can be used to their full effect.


The In-between Angles (Must Know)
Description: Toon will throw the boomerang at an angle somewhere between straight forward and diagonally up / diagonally down.
How to Perform: Looking at a GC controller, note that it has eight indents with 8 flat sides in-between them. Normally when you throw the boomerang you may only think about throwing it either forwards, diagonally up or diagonally down by putting the joystick into one of these indents. Only, on each side that connects these indents, there are unique angles that the boomerang can be thrown. Take for example the side that is in-between forwards and diagonally up, noting that everything said about it applies equally to the side in-between forwards and diagonally down. On this side there are two unique angles that the boomerang can be thrown depending on which indent the joystick is closest to. The differences between them are slight in comparison to how much they differ from their corresponding indent. You must however be relatively in the centre of the side in order for it to work. If you are up against the side and too close to one of the indents, the boomerang will be thrown as if the joystick were in that indent.
Note: It is beneficial to be able to hit the in-between angles on command as it gives you greater accuracy and importantly means that there are less blind-spots in your spam game where an opponent can be safe.





Arrows

Turn Around Special
Description: Toon will Jump Forwards or Backwards, Turn around to face the other way and shoot an arrow.
How to Perform 1: Jump Backwards or Forwards, Lightly tilt Backwards and Hit special.
How to Perform 2: Jump Backwards or Forwards, Tap/flick Backwards (such that the joystick Instantly returns to neutral), then instantly (i.e. within 10 frames of hitting backwards) hit special.
How to Perform 3: Jump Backwards or Forwards, perform an action, toward the last ten frame of that action buffer a neutral special and then hit backwards before the special comes out.
Note: I personally prefer the second flicking method, but whatever works for you. It can be nice to run away, jump and then fire an arrow back at the opponent as you continue to drift away from them.

Special Reversal
Description: Toon will Jump either Forwards or Backwards, and Reverse his momentum and turn to face the other way while shooting an arrow.
How to Perform: Jump Backwards or Forwards, (with the joystick in neutral) Hit special then instantly (within 4 frames) Hit Backwards.
Note: Everything in the note for the side special reversal applies here too, i.e. being able to fade away out of jumping backwards, doing it on the ground etc. Due the the fact that arrows are quicker than boomerangs, there is a possible use for this that the side-special reversal does not have. While risky, it is an option to use this tech to quickly change where you will land; for example, the opponent suddenly runs in and charges a smash and you have no double jump. It is possible to use this to land behind them and avoid the attack depending on the attack. Depending on the attack it may be a better idea to fast fall into an attack or shield or footstool.

Wavebounced Arrows
Description: Toon will Jump either Forwards or Backwards, Reverse his momentum and stay facing the original direction and shoot an arrow (though in truth you'll just be turning around twice very quickly).
How to Perform 1: Jump Backwards or Forwards, Slightly tilt Backwards and hit special, then instantly (within 4 frames) Hit the joystick in the direction you were originally facing.
How to Perform 2: Jump Backwards or Forwards, flick the joystick Backwards such that it immediately returns to neutral and hit special within 10 frames, then instantly (within 4 frames) Hit the joystick in the direction you were originally facing.
How to Perform 3: Jump Backwards or Forwards, perform an action, toward the last ten frame of that action buffer a neutral special and then hit backwards before the special comes out, then within the first four frames of the neutral special Hit the joystick in the direction you were originally facing.
Note: Buffering this out of something can just help with the timing in general even if you end up using method 2. While you will still have to hit the joystick in the direction you were originally facing within that 4 frame window, the time you have to move your joystick back there can be increased using the buffer window.

Running B Reversal
Description: Toon will Run, Turn around and Reverse his momentum resulting in a small slide while Shooting an Arrow back in the direction he came from.
How to Perform: Run in one direction, Quickly return the Joystick to Neutral and Hit special then Instantly Hit Backwards.
Note: For more information check out the Running Side-special Reversal earlier on in this thread.

Arrow Locking
Description: Toon will shoot the opponent with an arrow just after they missed a grounded tech or just after they were footstooled by someone else close to the ground such that they could not tech or just after they were locked by something else e.g. Nair. This will result in the opponent being locked, which essentially means that they temporarily lose control of their character and have no choice but to watch their character attempt to stand back up in place.
How to Perform: Shoot the opponent with an arrow soon after they miss a tech or soon after they land after having been footstooled in the air close to the ground (by someone else e.g. in doubles) or soon after they have been locked by something else.
Note: Once the opponent has been locked, you can either hit them again straight away with any move including another locking move which re-locks them or you can charge an attack and hit them in their 'forced get up'. Unlike in Brawl, we can't use multiple arrows as they are too slow, and dash attack doesn't have locking properties. The best we can get out of this is a single arrow and a guaranteed follow up.
One way to set it up is to land with Zair hitting an opponent who is on high percents (such that Zair forces them into tumble) then immediately shoot an arrow; if the opponent doesn't tech or DJ away etc, then they will be locked; it helps if the opposing character is a fast faller and is highly affected by gravity such that they don't get hit too high which will give them less time to react.
Another way to set it up is to force a ledge-slip. To do this, have the opponent stand with their back to the edge of a platform while on low percents, then hit them with a move that sends them at a horizontal angle, e.g. Nair. The opponent will be pushed back and slip backwards over the edge of the platform, enter their tumble animation, and unless the opponent is floaty, they will be unable to tech or in any way avoid landing in their flop animation, much like being footstooled close to the ground. Therefore, as soon as you're able to, you should follow them to the ground and shoot an arrow, which if you're quick enough will lock them.
Another method of setting up arrow locks is to make use of platforms. Use a bomb to hit an opponent up onto a platform such that they only barely land on it; this will be percent specific for each character. If they miss the tech and you immediately followed up the bomb with an arrow, you will lock them.



Sword Play

Hurricane Boost (Must Know)
Description: Toon will use the custom 2 Up-special 'Hurricane Spin' in the air, only instead of traveling generally horizontally, he will travel a long distance diagonally upwards, greatly increasing his recovery distance.
How to Perform: First of all you need to be hit by something that gives you knockback momentum. This can be anything from being blown up by the timed fuse of your own held bomb (any bomb will do) to being hit or even spiked by an opponent. Then it's just a matter of hitting Up-B at the right time (only works with the hurricane spin of course). You want to use Up-B when you are definitely no longer in hitstun (that's the key, you have to use it later than you might think), but you don't want to wait too long either. The timing will depend on what your percent is and how hard you were hit. If you use Up-B too early you will rise upwards the same small distance that you otherwise would have only you won't get the amazing horizontal distance that is expected of the Hurricane Spin. If you use Up-B too late, you will get a normal Hurricane Spin.
Note: This AT greatly increases Toon's recovery potential meaning that the Hurricane Spin becomes the best Up-B for recovering by far under the right conditions. As I said, the timing will depend on how hard you were hit and at what percent you were on. For example, if you are under 10% and a normal bomb hits you due to the fuse running out, you don't have to worry about using Up-B too early and can simply use it straight away and you'll get the boosted effect. The best way to get the hang of this is to play around with it yourself. Once you get a feel for the timing, you'll find that it isn't too difficult to know when you need to use Up-B regardless of what hits you. You can use this trick to go deep off stage so long as you have a bomb, and it will allow you to recover from being spiked in situations where you've already used your double jump, which covers some of the main weaknesses of the Hurricane Spin.


Ledge Grab Cancel
Description: While recovering with Up-special, near the end of the move Toon normally snaps to the ledge, but this tech allows him to continue doing his Up-special and only grab the ledge when you want to.
How to Perform: When you're Recovering, Use Up-special towards the ledge, then simply Hold Down (let go of down whenever you want to grab the ledge).
Note: This can be useful if someone is standing near the edge expecting you to snap to the ledge, but instead you decide to not grab it immediately, just long enough so that you can hit them. If the opponent throws out a move that hits horizontally or below the stage however, you are putting yourself at risk. I would also certainly not recommend going completely past the ledge unless you know that the Up-special will connect. One other good way to use this tech would be while trying to gimp someone; you jump off-stage and throw out aerials, if they miss you go to recover with Up-special, perhaps facing away from the stage to throw out more hitboxes in their direction, then you hold down to deliberately avoid grabbing the ledge so that they grab the ledge first, then you can come down and grab the ledge immediately after them, potentially setting up a trump situation. Obviously the effectiveness of this will depend on the recovery tool used by the opponent though.

Nair Double Hit
Description: The first hit of the Nair will hit on the closest hitbox towards Toon such that the sword animation is passing right through them; this particular first hit will hit them back through Toon and into the second hit of Nair (similar to D-smash).
How to Perform: Simply use Nair when you’re passing through your opponent such that the first hit only barely hits them.
Note: This is a great way to rack up damage which is especially needed due to the damage nerfs on this attack.

Dair Stall
Description: Toon will get hit by an attack, then as soon as the hitstun as worn off he will Jump and use Dair and float in place at the peak of the double jump in the animationof a Dair until the Dair has finished.
How to Perform: Get hit hard by your opponent or your own bomb, Jump and then Dair at practically the same time, just as your about to fall back down (i.e. just as the hitstun is wearing off but while there is still some momentum left over from the knockback).
Note: The timing is strict, too early and you slowly fall the Dair, too late and you'll Dair and plummet as usual. If you Jump to the left or right when you hit Jump and Dair together, you will float sideways in the direction of the Jump.
Note that if instead you don't jump and just use Dair, you will of course slowly fall the Dair, but if you delay Dair just long enough to hold the joystick either left or right and drift slightly in that direction, then assuming that you still have just enough momentum to slowly fall the Dair, you will slowly fall the Dair diagonally in the direction of your drift. The angle that you fall will depend on how much you were able to drift before you Dair'd, and that will depend on how much knockback you received in the first place.

Dair Recovery Stall
Description: Toon will get hit hard off stage, then just as the hitstun has worn off and while htere is still some knockback left over from being hit, he'll double Jump up in a Dair animation and float back towards stage at the peak of his jump until the Dair animation is complete.
How to Perform: It's really the same as the Dair Stall only the application for it is different here. Get hit off stage by your opponent, hold the joystick towards stage (for the duration of this tech), then as soon as you can, Double Jump and instantly Dair (pretty much at the same time). Works best if you can hold the joystick towards stage and C-stick the Dair.
Note: This will only work on medium to high percents (because of the momentum needed for it to work). Other rules apply like you need to make sure you have enough momentum and you obviously need to be sure you have a double jump. By doing this tech, you will recover higher and further than normal, which is good, but it will also take away your double jump which will limit your options. Note also that the Dair Stall tech is more difficult to perform over all because of the increase in hitstun resulting in a shorter period of time in you have no hitstun and yet still retain some momentum, which just means that this is much more difficult and therefore much riskier in smash 4 than it was in Brawl.

Sliding Dair
Description: Toon will use Dair, land on a slanted surface and slide a long way while pulling his sword out of the ground (the steeper the surface, the further he slides).
How to Perform: Simply Jump, and use a Dair directly over a slanted surface.
Note: This can make Dair less punishable if you miss. Obviously this tech is stage dependant.

Dair Water Stall
Description: Toon will Jump in the water, Jump up then instantly 'dive' with Dair really far down in the water. He will swim back up to the surface after a few moments completely unscathed.
How to Perform: Go on to any stage with water, get in the water, Jump out of the water and instantly Use Dair.
Note: This can be used to stall out entire sections on Wuhu Island by swimming underneath certain things and remaining underwater until the stage moves on. (It doesn't work on the rocks, but you can go underneath the two red floaties holding up the metal bar when they dip upwards) This is similar to 'rudder stalling' on the old Brawl pirate ship stage. Toon will start swimming back up to the surface, but something will get in the way so he'll be in his swimming up state under the water where you can't get touched for as long as you want or until the stage moves on.

Dair Shockwave
Description: Toon will do a Dair and land on a platform with an opponent beneath the platform such that the Dair hitbox doesn't hit them, but the landing hitbox does. The Landing hitbox will do 5% damage but no hitstun and they will be pushed to the left or right depending on which side of them the landing hitbox touched, and the length of the slide will depend on how high their percent is.
How to Perform: For the purpose of explaining, I will use the stage Battlefield. Stand on either the left or right platform and make sure that your opponent (or friend in teams as the case may be) is under the platform that you're standing on. Then Jump and Dair directly over them (or begin to fall through the platform and immediately Dair).
Note: When the character gets hit they receive no hitstun. This means that whatever move they were using or were about to use is completely unaffected, in fact, they'll get to do that move with a slide if they are on the ground. Also, unlike the normal Dair push, the Dair Shockwave's effect actually increases with your opponent's percentage. This means that although at first it appears to do nothing much, if you get your opponents percent to anything higher then say 50%, you will notice a considerable difference. The stages are very character specific because it's difficult to avoid the Dair's normal hitbox so some platform heights will work for some characters, while other characters might require higher or lower platforms.

Directed Dair
Description: After hitting an opponent with Dair, Toon is able to direct his falling movement slightly to the left or right because you completely regain control of your ability to drift backwards and forwards, only you continue to fall fast.
How to Perform: Simply use Dair to hit someone and then hold left or right depending on which direction you want to fall in.
Note: The control is only minimal, but it does allow us to Dair slightly off-stage and then still make it back if we actually hit them. If anything though, this is more something you want to keep in mind so that you don't accidentally find yourself plummeting off stage when you thought you were perfectly safe doing a Dair on stage.

Uair Stall through the Edge of the Stage (Must Know)
Description: Toon will move away from the ledge, Jump under it and stick his sword up through the stage so it reaches the other side and stay there for half a second then fall back down and Up-special to the ledge again.
How to Perform: Hang off the Ledge, Hit away from the Ledge, Double Jump underneath the stage and Instantly use Uair (then Use Up-special to grab the Ledge again).
Note: This move allows you to attack from under certain stages near the edge. You can move left or right when you're 'stalled' under the stage. You're of course not really stalled; it's just the momentum of the Double Jump that keeps you up while you're using Uair. The U-air can be poked through many stages, but in order to get the stalling effect, the stage near the edge must be thin, flat and solid.


Instant Dash Attack (Must Know)
Description: Toon will instantly use his Dash attack from a standing position.
How to Perform: Initiate a Dash in one direction then instantly Hit the C-stick Down.
Note: This can be used to use your Dash Attack when standing right on the edge; this is un-recommended though for obvious reasons. What this tech gets past is what would normally occur if you tried to do an instant dash attack with just the joystick and the attack button, that is, it would result in an F-smash.





General

RAR (Reverse Aerial Rush) (Must Know)
Description: Toon will Run in one direction then Jump Backwards in the original direction you were running.
How to Perform: Simply Run in one direction, Flick the joystick Backwards then almost instantly Jump (Usually a SH); this will carry over some of your original forward momentum, but you can then hold the joystick back in that original direction (now it would be holding Backwards) for a smoother looking transition.
Note: This can be useful for both attacking and retreating. For attacking you can use Bair in the direction of you run as a quick and far-reaching poke, letting you hit the opponent in situations where you otherwise wouldn't have reached in time. As a retreating tool you can run away from your opponent and then just as an example you can do a SH Zair back in their direction to cut off their approach or use a SH Fair if you want to leave your options open. It's just a very fundamental technique that should be learnt to gain more control over your character and open up more options.


Fox Trotting (Must Know)
Description: Toon will travel across the stage in short Dash bursts without ever entering into the Run animation.
How to Perform: Simply initiate a dash in one direction by flicking the joystick and returning it to neutral, then toward the end of the dash, rinse and repeat.
Note: If you want to turn around without having to bother with the turn around animation, do a single Dash Dance at the end of one of the Dashes, to be specific, do a dash and then toward the end of it initiate another dash in the same direction and then immediately interrupt it with yet another dash input back in the other direction, at which point you can continue doing dash inputs in this new direction or transition into a run.


Slingshot
Description: Toon Runs, turns around in the Dash Turn animation, the slides out of the Dash Turn while doing certain attacks.
How to Perform: Run (not Dash), Hit and hold Backwards until Toon is out of the whole turning animation and has gained back some speed in the other direction, then feel free to input a D-tilt, or D-smash, or Utilt, etc. while sliding forwards.
Note: Not all moves will let you keep your slide, e.g. F-smash. Note that you can do a simple pivot while in your slide animation allowing you to do all the sliding moves while sliding Backwards.

Perfect Pivot (True Pivot) (Must Know)
Description: Toon makes an initial Dash in one direction then cancels the initial frames of that Dash by simply turning around on the spot (i.e. by doing a pivot).
How to Perform: Hit either backwards or forwards to make the initial Dash, then instantly Flick the opposite direction, letting the joystick return to neutral instantly (such that it is only held for a single frame).
How to Perform 2: With A + B = smash turned on and the C-stick left as 'smash', hold attack and special, hit the joystick left or right, then almost immediately hit the C-stick back in the opposite direction. It would help if you had a control set up that made this easier, e.g. assign attack and/or special to a shoulder button.
Note: This tech is all about micro-spacing. For Link this will mean the difference between using attacks too close or using them at the tip of his sword. It allows you to quickly and slightly alter your position and immediately give you all your options back like Jab, U-tilt, D-tilt and D-smash. It can be used in conjunction with Foxtrotting to allow you to do all these options out of a Dash (which is otherwise impossible) or simply to adjust your spacing more effectively as required.


Stutter Step F-smash (Must Know)
Description: Toon will inch slightly Forwards and use F-smash.
How to Perform: You cancel the initial frames of a Dash with a F-smash, so hit the joystick either forwards or backwards then instantly hit the C-stick in the same direction.
Note: This can be used in conjunction with Foxtrotting to allow you to do an F-smash immediately after a Dash, otherwise, used by itself the difference in the range it gives your F-smash is minimal.


Kara Smash (Must Know)
Description: Toon will Dash forward, initiate another Dash then immediately F-smash.
How to Perform: This tech revolves around the ability to interrupt the initial frames of a Dash with F-smash, otherwise known as a stutter-step. This is combined with the act of moving around with Dashes, i.e. Foxtrotting. In other words, initiate a dash in any direction (as many as you want, but generally just the one or two), then toward the end of that dash, initiate another dash and immediately hit the attack button to do an F-smash in the direction of your dash or use the C-stick set to smash to do an F-smash in any direction.
Note: This is a great way to adjust your spacing and F-smash, especially if you have the c-stick set to smash as you can more easily use it to retreat and then F-smash back in the direction you came from which is great for punishing approaches. It is slightly faster than simply walking and using F-smash, enough that it makes a difference worth noting. Link's walk is pretty fast though so obviously other characters would get a better use out of this tech. Note that you can actually do the F-smash back in the direction you came from without the c-stick. What you need to do is Dash, then at the end of the dash initiate another dash in the same direction then interrupt that Dash with another Dash back in the other direction (i.e. do a single Dash Dance) and hit the attack button for an F-smash. But then, the retreating version isn't needed any more because it's possible to F-smash backwards straight out of a Run. Simply run in one direction, hit backwards, immediately let go of the joystick and hit the c-stick set to smash in the direction you are now facing. Without the c-stick it's a bit more difficult; either try to time it by hitting the joystick backwards out of a run and the attack button at the same time, or run in one direction, let the joystick return to neutral so that you skid, then hit the joystick backwards and hit attack.


Pivot Grab (Must Know)
Description: Toon will Run, then turn around and Grab while Sliding Backwards.
How to Perform: Run in one direction, hit the Grab button and then instantly hit Backwards.
Note: Pretty good move here, especially considering that our Back-Throw is now deadly. Running past people who are standing closer towards the edge then pivot grabbing them into a Back-Throw kill is a great application of this tech. Note that if you hit the grab button after hitting backwards you will get a Pivot F-tilt instead.


Tether Cancel
Description: Toon will go to tether the ledge but the tethering process will be cut short at some point and the tether will be instantly retracted, whether it be the very moment after you sent out the tether or well after all the swinging is done and you're just hanging there, or perhaps somewhere in between.
How to Perform: Simply hit down at any point after you've hit the grab button near the ledge to tether.
Note: You can avoid fast falling when you cancel the tether if you quickly flick the joystick down only part of the way. Alternatively, so long as you are rising, hitting down as hard as you want won't FF. If you still have your double jump, this can create some interesting situations in which the opponent thinks you have only the option of retracting the tether and snapping to the ledge, but in fact you can cancel the tether then immediately double jump and hit them with an aerial for example. This is especially true if you telegraph the tether by airdodging first. In fact you can use an airdodge to avoid an attack then immediately retaliate and punish the lag of that attack by cancelling the airdodge with tether (the moment the opponent's attack has ended) then cancelling the tether and hitting the opponent with a DJ aerial. If this wasn't obviously amazing enough, consider the situation where an opponent jumps out at you to hit you with an aerial only to have that aerial dodged and then immediately have you do a DJ Dair spike before their aerial has even ended. If you're holding a Bomb, instantly tether cancelling will allow you to z-drop the bomb and be able to catch it with an aerial or else just z-drop the bomb off-stage leaving you free to react to what happens whether the bomb was dropped inside of the opponent or dropped down on the opponent. Once you've tether cancelled you can immediately tether or grab the ledge because tethering the ledge doesn't count as grabbing it and so it won't make the ledge unavailable to you for the next second. I guess I should mention that if you let yourself tether then swing, and then toward the peak of the swing on the other side you lightly tap down to tether cancel without fast falling, this will result in the momentum being carried over from the swing which can be used for going under stages for example, not that you'd want to do that or anything.

Tether Trump (Must Know)
Description: Toon will tether the ledge as someone is recovering towards it and he'll reel in the tether to grab the ledge the moment after the opponent grabs the ledge.
How to Perform: Simply jump out off stage either backwards or while throwing something backwards to turn you around to face the ledge, then hit the grab button to tether and either hit it again very quickly or hit up on the joystick to reel the tether in without buffering a ledge attack. It's all about the timing of when you reel the tether in so watch your opponent's recovery carefully as the optimal thing to do is grab the ledge the very moment after your opponent does.
Note: Ok to explain, let's first cover the basics. A trump is where a character is forced off the ledge by another character who grabbed the ledge after them. The order in which characters grab the ledge is most important when deciding which of them is trumped; the deciding factor is not which character held onto the ledge first but which character entered their ledge grab animation first. This is important as for example tethering to the ledge has a shorter ledge grab animation, so while it can appear as though the tethering character grabbed the ledge first as they were the first to hold onto the ledge, it is possible for them to have entered their ledge grab animation after the opponent, meaning that the tethering character, having entered their ledge grab animation second, is under no threat of being trumped. When you grab the ledge normally there is a period of time in which you cannot act but also cannot be trumped; the very moment you can act is the moment you can also be trumped if you don't buffer a ledge option. The only ledge options that can be buffered is ledge attack, ledge roll, and ledge jump, meaning that ledge get-up cannot be buffered, nor can hitting away from the ledge to let go of it; if you try to do a ledge get-up or let go of the ledge you will be trumped. When you grab the ledge with a reeled in tether however, you can act immediately and be trumped immediately (if you don't buffer a ledge option). [It doesn't really matter so much if you are trumped out of a tether though because the opponent will be stuck on the ledge for the full amount of time allowing you to DJ recover, or in other words, trumping a reeled in tether ledge grab is the equivalent of doing a trump at the worst possible time.] With a normal trump you have to try to time it so you grab the ledge immediately after the opponent does, otherwise you'll still be stuck waiting on the ledge while the opponent is being trumped and you could miss out on getting a follow-up. But because the tether allows you to act immediately when you grab the ledge, you don't have to time it perfectly at all. Even with the latest/worst timing, you are still able to act the very moment the opponent gets trumped, allowing for easy followups such as hit away DJ Bair, Bomb throw to Fair/Uair, or Aerial Up-B. But the opponent can avoid these by buffering 1 of the three bufferable ledge options right? Correct. The non-perfect tether trump can be avoided by buffering a ledge option which you will typically be unable to punish. But if you do time the tether reel in perfectly such that you grab the ledge the very moment after the opponent does, it won't matter if they buffer a ledge option because you'll have that option covered too, as I'll explain. When you do a perfect tether trump you find yourself in an extremely beneficial situation. If you immediately do a normal ledge get-up (remember, this cannot be buffered so it requires timing), the opponent is still forced to do a bufferable ledge option otherwise they will be trumped, or in other words, you still technically occupy the ledge while getting up, meaning that the opponent can be trumped while you are in the middle of getting up off the ledge. Remember; doing a ledge get-up or hitting away from the ledge to let go of it cannot be buffered and so these are not options that the opponent can use to avoid being trumped by the perfect tether trump while you are getting up off the ledge, and any attempt to do so in this situation will just get them trumped. If they are trumped then you will find yourself on-stage ready to punish their recovery because you know that they cannot go to the ledge again, otherwise they will completely leave themselves open to being hit due to not receiving any invulnerability frames. If instead they do buffer a ledge option (only ledge attack, ledge roll, or ledge jump) you will be in a prime position to punish any of these options as you will already be on-stage and you will know for a fact that one of these options must be used to avoid the trump and you will know for a fact that one of these options must be done at a very specific time which makes punishing much easier.


Instant Tether Trump (Must Know)
Description: The same as the Tether Trump above (read it first for more information), only specifically the fastest way to use it.
How to Perform: On a normal stage you need to have your back right up against the ledge, SH backwards out off stage continuing to hold backwards, and hit the grab button from the 3rd airborne frame, then reel it in. On Dream Land however, so long as you start with your back to the ledge, you just need to hold jump, hold backwards and hit grab quickly, even within the jumpsquat frames because it will buffer a tether which will activate on the first airborne frame, then simply reel it in.
Note: Toon's instant tether trump is relatively easy to perform. Try working in a RAR first to really catch the opponent by surprise.

Fall Through Zair (Must Know)
Description: Toon will use his Zair and as it is coming out, he will pass through platforms without the Zair being interrupted or cancelled.
How to Perform: Be above a platform in the air, then on your way down hold Down and use Zair at any point.
Note: Best used while fast falling as you will still want to cancel that Zair by landing on the ground asap. Can be used as a surprise attack (for example, you could use a well spaced Fall Through Zair on the middle top platform of BF to poke someone on the side platforms on your way down), but more importantly it is sometimes the only way to have a Zair out at full range if you want to fast fall and there's a platform in the way (e.g. through one of the side platforms of BF).


Edge Cancelling (Must Know)
Description: Toon does a certain action such as an airdodge and drifts forwards towards the edge of a platform or the stage, lands near the end of it and slides off which completely removes any remaining animation and lag from the previous action, in this case the airdodge.
How to Perform: Simply jump towards the edge of a platform or the edge of the stage, hold the joystick forwards, do an action that can be ledge cancelled and aim you movement so that you land on the very end of the platform or stage and then slide off due to your momentum moving forwards.
Note: This can also be done with Arrows, airdodge and Zair (including an airdodge to Zair) to completely cut their ending lag allowing you to do any other action immediately. The arrows have to be fired before you land on the edge and you have to fall off forwards in order for it to work. This allows us to do lagless Zair's while holding a Bomb too.




Stay tuned for more updates!
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I made the following notes while testing out the game for the first time today. A lot of this may be known to you if you've had they game this whole time, but it wasn't known to me. A lot of these are just basic differences that took my Brawl knowledge by surprise.


New ledge mechanics that don't allow you to re-grab the ledge until a certain amount of time has passed makes returning on-stage with Zair super easy (no need for 'demonic zair', although it actually still works).

You can z-drop a bomb and re-catch it near a ledge by instantly hitting down to cancel the tether (then just double jump and catch the bomb with e.g. an aerial).

You can also z-drop the bomb without the Zair coming out if you do it immediately after a ledge hop (similar to the well known z-drop instantly after a SH/FH.) This is only really interesting as it makes me wonder if there are any other ways to z-drop without the zair coming out, and more importantly, why does it work in these cases but not in others?

If you want to retract the tether such that you grab the ledge and stay there, you have to hit up. Hitting the grab or attack button again will make Toon retract the tether then ledge attack immediately (hitting jump will do an immediate ledge hop).

You can cancel the tether (once it grabs the ledge) mid-swing and keep the momentum of the swing by lightly tapping down. This is especially useful on stages where the ground can be jumped through.

The new pivot mechanics allow us to not only f-tilt backwards out of a dash or a run, but we can also throw a boomerang backwards directly out of a run/dash. In Brawl Toon was always restricted to throwing it back out of the initial dash, so this was certainly welcome news for me. Boomerang spacing all day. It also means we can do grounded boomerang wavebounces which was never possible in Brawl.

Because Dair doesn't pogo any more, when you dair onto a platform and hit someone standing underneath, you will continue to fall and the landing hitbox of Dair (once known as the 'Dair Shockwave') will hit them as well which will interrupt the initial knockback of the Dair. The result is that the opponent will be hit back down towards the ground where they will have to tech (or they will be hit diagonally downwards off stage with an insignificant amount of knockback). I'm not sure whether this is good or not, but for now it's certainly worth noting.

The new grab mechanics that make it so there is no grab armour for those doing the grabbing is the same for command grabs as well, e.g. Ganon and C-Falcon's Up-special recovery. This means that if they get hit at the same time you get grabbed in mid air, the grab will break and they will get sent flying.

We can slide off platforms/stages while pulling a bomb now. I guess this is a good thing. More mobility or something.
Oh actually... Well that's cool... If you run off a platform/stage which would normally cause that whole flip animation thing, and you pull the bomb at the right time (it's like just as you're coming off the edge), you will pull a bomb with a small boost of momentum similar to boomerang gliding. Nice. Yeah, you definitely get more momentum than you're normal drift. I guess this is a new tech then. I hereby call this tech, 'The F-bomb'.
Go on. I dare you to ask what the 'F' stands for XD.

Random knowledge:
-Slope Bombing is still a thing only the bomb behaves differently.
-Invincibomb Drop is also kind of a thing; the point is, if you cancel an airdodge with a z-drop, the Bomb will be dropped behind Toon instead of in front of him, but because of the laggy airdodge, who cares.
-Any momentum based techs such as the Dair Stall or the Safe Spike are now much more difficult because of the added hitstun. I guess I'll have to say goodbye to the Dair Recovery Stall which is now probably not worth it.
 
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Mota

"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
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I bought the Wii U version yesterday as well.

I haven't gone in depth into anything as of yet. However something that's bugged me from the start is how after performing an aerial, if you buffer a lagless zair, it'll result in an airdodge.
For example I'll double jump Fair, Fast fall, and try to zair, but it'll airdodge instead.

Why is that, and is there a way to avoid it?
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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In Brawl there used to be a similar issue that when you buffered a Zair out of something, you would airdodge, and the way to avoid this was to input the Zair manually (instead of just the grab button, you'd press the shield then the attack or grab button (you need to hold the shield button if you want to use the attack button)). Things have changed in smash 4 and this issue is now way more problematic.
For starters, you have to wait till the absolute end of the animation of anything before doing a Zair with just the grab button, otherwise you'll just get an airdodge. To clarify, this isn't even about buffering any more. You cannot even Zair with the grab button in the IASA frames. What I'm saying is that because Toon is still busy with the animation of e.g. a Full hop Nair by the time he is well on his way back down, until Toon goes completely back to an animation of him falling as if you never did a move, pressing the grab button will always result in an airdodge. To give you an idea, if you are perfect with your timing, you can only barely get out a hitbox of Zair after a Full hop Nair by just pressing the grab button.
Secondly, there is a new buffering system that doesn't allow multiple inputs to be buffered, this mean that you can only buffer the airdodge out of something, not the Zair (this is if you are going for the shield button plus attack/grab button manual Zair work-around).
Thirdly of course, cancelling airdodge with a Zair will still result in the airdodge's landing lag.
What does all this mean?
Well if you want to land with only the lag of Zair you need to be absolutely sure that every last bit of the previous move's animation is finished. You will actually have to wait till Toon visibly looks like he is in his neutral aerial state, and only then may you press the grab button.
If however you know that you'll get the Zair if you do it out of the IASA frames of the previous move, which in many cases is much much earlier, or the situation is such that it doesn't matter if you get the lag of the airdodge, then the method you'll want to use is to buffer the airdodge only, then use the grab button only (immediately) when the airdodge actually comes out. If you are used to the method where you use the attack button to cancel the airdodge, you'll now need to make sure that you hold the shield button instead of just pressing them both at the same time to buffer both. I cannot stress, you must wait till the airdodge animation actually comes out. It is still possible with this method to get a full length Zair after a full hop Nair if you time everything perfectly.
Currently, there is no real solution, only understanding and acceptance, but I'm open for any ideas.
 
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Yackabean

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We can slide off platforms/stages while pulling a bomb now. I guess this is a good thing. More mobility or something.
Oh actually... Well that's cool... If you run off a platform/stage which would normally cause that whole flip animation thing, and you pull the bomb at the right time (it's like just as you're coming off the edge), you will pull a bomb with a small boost of momentum similar to boomerang gliding. Nice. Yeah, you definitely get more momentum than you're normal drift. I guess this is a new tech then. I hereby call this tech, 'The F-bomb'.
Go on. I dare you to ask what the 'F' stands for XD.
I mentioned this previously in the AT thread and called it "super boomerang glide toss." But yeah the tumble animation definitely does give us more momentum and wavebouncing it is super effective on battlefield and smashville making you whizz past approaching opponents with your rang.
Bombs I haven't tried it out so much with. Arrows are weird and Falling Up B no longer grabs ledge D:
 

jayeldeee

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You can do a bomb drop without the zair coming out, but it has to be right after the jump. I mean right after. Just to clear that up, lol.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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So I found three new ways to z-drop a bomb without doing a Zair/tether.

There are the previously known ways of doing this which is to SH/FH then instantly z-drop or to ledgehop and instantly z-drop.
I had often wondered why that was, but in any case, I found that the same thing can be done by z-dropping immediately after an aerial (I tested it with Nair, Bair, Fair and Uair), out of a footstool, and out of hitstun.
Everything else will result in a bomb throw (so no special moves or airdodge etc).
So we can do stuff like double jump ZAC out of an aerial (you'd have to do something like the BFO first) or out of hitstun. Pretty cool.

I mentioned this previously in the AT thread and called it "super boomerang glide toss." But yeah the tumble animation definitely does give us more momentum and wavebouncing it is super effective on battlefield and smashville making you whizz past approaching opponents with your rang.
Bombs I haven't tried it out so much with. Arrows are weird and Falling Up B no longer grabs ledge D:
What you mentioned before was the boomerang glide, an old brawl AT. I am talking about pulling a bomb with the same effect as a boomerang glide which wasn't possible in Brawl (because bomb pulls didn't slide off) nor was it known/mentioned before. Arrows can't work because they don't slide off ledges like Bomb pulls now do. You also can't wavebounce bombs like you can boomerangs, which was also already known.

After messing around with the F-bomb more, I can see it being really useful for safe bomb pulls because retreating jumps can get predicted if used too much. Or it could just be used as a boost of speed to pull a bomb while catching up to an opponent you just hit.

Woah this is huge, and so easy to perform!

Edit: btw, my internet is down atm (I'm currently using a friend's) because we had a bad thunderstorm, so don't be surprised if you don't hear from me for a little while. It can't be helped.
 
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Yackabean

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Already combo's for this.
People in my community such as Mr. Volvagia were talking about how stupid the c-stick being mapped as attack was stupid before. And he said exploits would come out of it and look what we have!
This is kind of beautiful for bomb set ups. So if you pull off an f-tilt mix up you can do some of the following combos:
F-tilt > Bomb
F-tilt > Bomb > Nair / Fair / Up air
F-tilt > Bomb > Grab (Low percents)

Probably a crap ton more but this is neat.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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F-tilt > Bomb isn't really a thing. Unless maybe the F-tilt knocks them off-stage and they are late with their double jump, otherwise it just doesn't string well together from what I found. Either they don't have enough hitstun or they get hit too far. Also you don't need c-stick set to attack, nor do you have to wait till you're visibly crouching. You can Hit the joystick down then immediately flick the c-stick (set to smash) Forwards and you'll still f-tilt with a bomb (from memory). Very very easy to perform.

(still posting from a friend's. stupid internet.)
 
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Aunt Jemima

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Along with Kirby and Meta Knight, Toon Link gets the most momentum while sliding with his turning animation. Here's a couple things Toon Link can do to utilize the Slide.

Shield, Spotdodge, Standing Grab, Crouch (universal)

Up Tilt, Down Tilt, Forward Tilt

Down Smash

Jump-Cancelled Throw (!)

Reversed Boomerang
---

However, Toon Link can utilize this in a way that only Kirby and now himself can. When crouching, due to the ability to cancel out a crouch with quite a variety of actions, these are added to that list:

Reversed Forward Smash, Up Smash

Up Tilt, Forward Tilt (more sliding distance)


Forward Tilt w/ Bomb

Hylian Shield Protection

---

I feel that Toon Link can utilize this technique in a better way than most characters, which generally should bring up more discussion regarding the technique. Excuse me if it has already been brought up, though. The general use for this technique is for punishing laggy moves, rolls, etc. and mindgames. However, due to the vast amount of actions Toon Link can use, I feel that this can be far more useful for him than others. I can't give my personal opinions on it's uses just yet, as I have spent more time studying Kirby's slide in-depth. Toon Link is one of my secondaries, though, so I feel that I should bring up this technique.
 
D

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For the thread title, what about "The Oceanside Laboratory" or "Hollo's Potion Shop"?

Also, I wonder if we can find any uses for the new Z bomb drop. I've been trying a ton, but I can't really find any except maybe for escaping. Even then, TL already has tons of options for escaping, most of which are better than escaping with zair and bomb drops.
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I've finally got internet again. That was hell.

I found a good use for the new c-stick mechanics and one more reason why you'll want to keep the c-stick set to smash. It's entirely possible that people already knew about this or that people have been doing it without knowing it was a thing or why it works this way, but whatever. As you may already know, because of the new ability to charge smashes with just the c-stick by holding it, this caused some trouble for people that don't normally flick the c-stick when using it for their aerials because the c-stick overrides the input command of the joystick when it is held. Well as I said, there's a good use for this new quirk. Basically, if you use the c-stick to throw the bomb when you do a JC throw out of a dash/run, if you don't flick the c-stick and instead hold it for a very brief moment then let it go again, it allows you to dash out of the JC throw animation immediately by simply holding the joystick in the desired direction (e.g. you could continue holding the joystick forwards the whole time out of your initial run or you could hold it backwards at any time during the input for JC throw and the perfect joystick input for a dash out of the JC throw will be automatically buffered for you). I don't claim that this allows you to do anything that technically wasn't possible before. What I am claiming however is that by using this simple method of holding the c-stick for a brief period when you use it to throw the bomb, it makes it much easier and more reliable to dash out of a JC throw as soon as is technically possible perfectly every time.

This in turn made me realise that the IASA frames for a JC forward-throw are noticeably different to the JC up and back throw. Basically, you can dash out of a JC up or back throw sooner than you can dash out of a JC forward throw.

One more thing concerning JC throws. If you time it perfectly, it's possible to re-catch the bomb out of a JC F-throw by simply (standing still and) Jabbing. It's just an odd and quick way to do a BFO that I haven't seen mentioned before. (please correct me if I'm mistaken)

There was another small point I wanted to make, and that is concerning my previous post about the f-tilt with a bomb. I said that it was possible to do this by simply hitting down on the joystick then immediately hitting forwards with the c-stick (while holding a bomb), but I just wanted to add that this method doesn't work very well when you're standing on a platform. This is obviously just because if you hit down on the ground you'll crouch, but if you hit down on a platform you'll drop through it. It's still possible to use this method on a platform, but the timing is much more strict.


@ Aunt Jemima Aunt Jemima : There definitely seems to be a lot of recent interest in the slide characters get out of a 'dash turn'. I think this would be a good discussion to have especially for the Toons as you've so well outlined. Now that I have the internet back I'll edit the OP accordingly.

@Dr. Artemis: "The Oceanside Laboratory" - is it meant to be a more Toonish version of the Lakeside Laboratory because you know, it's the ocean?
As for possible uses for the new zair + z-drop, well I guess it makes it so that poorly spaced Zairs are safer now and for that matter it makes retreating Zairs generally safer.
Also if you Zair upon landing after a FH or from a generally greater height than a SH, you can immediately catch the bomb with an aerial (so you can do stuff like FH bomb pull, Zair(at full length if timed correctly)+drop, land, SH/FH aerial to re-catch the bomb). It's a good point though. That is to say, all this talk about trying to find ways to z-drop without the Zair coming out means there has been some neglect as to how we can use what we've been given.


Edit: The OP is updated!!

Edit 2: I just found that doing a D-smash out of the slide you get from a dash turn allows you to hit with only the first hit of D-smash whenever you want. If that didn't blow your mind, let me put it this way. You get a character with a poor recovery standing near the ledge but not right on it (say, under the side platform of BF), you run past them towards the ledge, turn around, D-smash out of the slide, the first hit hits them, and they die regardless of their percent. I'm talking about a D-smash OHKO without a Bomb.
This is ridiculous. Try it against Little Mac for example.
Actually, on second thought, it seems that hitting with just the first hit of D-smash is just super easy in this game in general. Like I can just walk up to thinner characters and D-smash and it'll miss the second hit, so the extra slide just makes it even easier still, for example there are some bigger characters that can only be hit with just the first hit if you do it out of the dash turn slide.
 
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D

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I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but it seems to be possible to ftilt with a bomb on the 3DS version even though it doesn't have a cstick. You just move the circle pad in the direction you want to ftilt in and down just barely enough so you can crouch, then A. It's a lot harder to pull off, but at least it can be done. Only problem is if TL decides to do a bomb throw instead (which happens like 1/3 of the time even when you're doing it right) he'll throw it downwards and blow himself up instead of throwing it forward.

@Dr. Artemis: "The Oceanside Laboratory" - is it meant to be a more Toonish version of the Lakeside Laboratory because you know, it's the ocean?
Pretty much, yeah. I just thought it made more sense since Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass take place in oceans. Or was it seas? I forget. "Seaside Laboratory" could possibly work, too.

That is to say, all this talk about trying to find ways to z-drop without the Zair coming out means there has been some neglect as to how we can use what we've been given.
Yeah, as much as it stinks that we lost our old Z bomb drop, I highly doubt it's going to be patched back. It doesn't look likely that we're going to be able to find a way to get the hookshot to stop coming out, either, except in times where it's ridiculously hard to pull off and/or useless (except Z bomb dropping after a ledge hop, that actually looks fairly useful and is easy to do). At this point I think we need to focus on trying to find a way to make the best of it.
That said, I've been trying to find some use for it for a while and haven't really been able to come up with anything except to Z bomb drop on an opponent that somehow ended up under you when you're tether recovering, and using it to escape. I'm sure there's probably some way we could make use of this, though.
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D

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So I'm not sure if this is a stupid question or what, but what do you guys think of using an aerial (nair in TL's case) to cancel landing lag from an air dodge? I remember this idea getting mentioned a few times after the game came out, but haven't heard anything since. Any idea what the reason is?
Looking at this, TL's nair should theoretically cut a few frames off of his landing. On top of this, this also lets you hit an opponent on your left or right if you time it right, making your landing much more safe than it would be otherwise. I tested this in training mode, and it seemed like I could do a jab faster out of a landing nair (which was done after air dodging) than out of landing from a plain air dodge. Am I just imagining it?
But yeah, unless there's some issue with this that I don't know about, it seems like it could possibly work.

Also, when using the hurricane spin custom I often find that it seems to get seemingly random changes in vertical and horizontal recovery distance. Like, sometimes it gives insane horizontal recovery but almost no vertical recovery, and other times it gives about the same vertical recovery as horizontal. I've probably spent at least half an hour in training mode trying to figure out what causes this, and couldn't come up with anything. Anyone have any ideas? But yeah, I think if we could figure out what causes the change in recovery then we could possibly use it to our advantage, making the hurricane spin a much, much better than before.
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Zerocakes

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I don't know if this has already been posted but Toon Link's Bombs can actually save him from not recovering high enough to reach the ledge, but the timing has to be just right so it's really difficult to pull off. (I guess this also applies to Link)
I call it "Bomb recovery"
We all know if you hold a bomb for about 5 seconds it'll blow up and stun you, but if you use your upb and miss the ledge, you'll go into special fall, however if the bomb blows up during special fall it'll stop your special fall and you'll get another chance to use upb, depending on the timing you can get a little higher and save yourself! :D
As for timing, if you're launched pretty far, or are being gimped/edgeguarded pull out a bomb as soon as you can. It might take just enough time for it to blow up when you're below the ledge and it just might save your stock.
Just thought i'd share this in case it's of any use to anyone.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Yeah the reason why that isn't listed is because it's obvious enough that it doesn't need to be said. There's a few things like that. I'm not trying to be a jerk, there's just no way I can say that without it sounding jerkish.
 
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CURRY

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I'm a bit hesitant to put this here, since it's really building off of things that we already know, and kind of a speculation on how useful this will really be.

So if you tether with a bomb in hand, you z-drop the bomb and tether at the same time.
So, if you double-tap the tether, what Toon does is z-drop and snap to the ledge.
By doing this, you can essentially go offstage, drop off this constantly active hitbox, and teleport safely and VERY quickly right back to the ledge.
Doing this utilizes the bomb. The one projectile that we don't use for gimping, not counting stage spikes. So... helping out partners in doubles..?
Z-drop tether probably isn't applicable in damaging opponents, because of the trajectory that the explosion hitbox launches at, and the fact that APPROACHING with a bomb with your back facing your opponent, with the intention to z-drop it on him, is just stupid, especially with Toon's relatively slow airspeed, which gives the opponent a lot of time to react.
Also, Toon holds items in FRONT of him, which doesn't help. The fact that Toon does this, and Megaman does the exact opposite really makes it feel weird for me when playing Megaman.
Going offstage with a bomb in hand, facing towards the ledge also gives you the option of airdodge-> tether, which makes you retain your bomb and go back to the ledge. From there, you can probably throw it out again or something.

To me, it seems super situational, but being able to retreat VERY quickly while leaving a hitbox seems like something that should be very abusable.
Although, there is the "safe spike" that I've never seen used, but sounded really cool. It just takes way too long to set up and very hard to very hard to find the right situations to use it as well. That may be the case as well with z-dropping bombs with a tether.
 
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Kunai KazeKun

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You should add the 1 Hit-KO D-Smash from Toon Link

Its also back and its stronger than ever. If your rage is above 130% your D-Smash will kill some character instantly at any procent.. They can absolut not recover and cant move until they die. Just test it on ZSS and Shiek and they die before they can do any move.
Not tested an all chars just on same. Dark Pit doesnt work for example cause the second hit stops the first hit momentum, which can be cancelled with a bomb, when timed corretly.

Its really funny xD
 
D

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You should add the 1 Hit-KO D-Smash from Toon Link

Its also back and its stronger than ever. If your rage is above 130% your D-Smash will kill some character instantly at any procent.. They can absolut not recover and cant move until they die. Just test it on ZSS and Shiek and they die before they can do any move.
Not tested an all chars just on same. Dark Pit doesnt work for example cause the second hit stops the first hit momentum, which can be cancelled with a bomb, when timed corretly.

Its really funny xD
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you mean this?

"D-smash Gimp
Description: Toon will hit the opponent with the first hit of D-smash and the second hit will miss, putting the opponent in an unfavourable position off-stage where characters with poor recoveries will have trouble making it back.
How to Perform 1: For especially thin characters, Toon can simply stand very close to them and use D-smash and the second hit will miss.
How to Perform 2: For the bigger characters, Toon will need to slide while doing D-smash. This can be out of a walk to get a small slide, or out of a Slingshot, which is basically the slide you get when coming out of a Dash Turn. To do this last one, you Run in one direction, Hold backwards and continue to hold backwards for a short period just after you've turned around, then input the D-smash.
How to Perform 3: Stand near the edge on a slanted platform/slope facing towards the steeper side (which will also mean you are facing the middle of the stage) and use D-smash on your opponent who is standing in front of you.
Note: The first way is character specific, the second way takes a bit of time to set up, and the third way is stage specific. Between them however, they make for a good bag of tricks that grant Toon the possibility of making some incredible comebacks. The first hit of D-smash has set knockback which basically just means that it will always hit the opponent the same distance regardless of their percent, which is why it is perfect for low percent gimps."
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Kunai KazeKun

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The first way is character specific, the second way takes a bit of time to set up, and the third way is stage specific. Between them however, they make for a good bag of tricks that grant Toon the possibility of making some incredible comebacks. The first hit of D-smash has set knockback which basically just means that it will always hit the opponent the same distance regardless of their percent, which is why it is perfect for low percent gimps."
Thats not correct after all. D-Smash doesnt have a set knockback, its growing with Rage Effect. If you have around 130% and you D-Smash ZSS she will be dead for sure, without doing anything. 150% make it a instantkill at any percent. Looks like that no one tested it with Rage Effect, but the knockback is growing for sure.


@Dr. Artemis
Yes thats what I meant, but the description is not correct:

Anyone have an idea how to perform this in Smash 4?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dI_GS3u0gE

Does anyone have an idea how to perform this in Smash 4?
 
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D

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Thats not correct after all. D-Smash doesnt have a set knockback, its growing with Rage Effect. If you have around 130% and you D-Smash ZSS she will be dead for sure, without doing anything. 150% make it a instantkill at any percent. Looks like that no one tested it with Rage Effect, but the knockback is growing for sure.


@Dr. Artemis
Yes thats what I meant, but the description is not correct:

Anyone have an idea how to perform this in Smash 4?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dI_GS3u0gE

Does anyone have an idea how to perform this in Smash 4?
I just tested the dsmash with rage in vs mode, and the only thing I noticed is that it seemed to be easier to get the second hit to miss, causing the opponent to go flying off-stage. I don't know if it was just a coincidence that it missed more or if it had anything to do with rage, though. But yeah, is this what you meant? Otherwise I'm still confused. As for the video I'll check that out more later.
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Keytrun

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Can someone put up a video of what the boomerang glide is supposed to look like? I can't tell a difference when I run off stage and boomerang. Nothing seems to really happen
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Well that's certainly interesting. @ Kunai KazeKun Kunai KazeKun is right. Rage does affect the amount of knockback the first hit of D-smash has. I'll update the D-smash Gimp accordingly, but I'd be very interested in seeing a bit of discussion on the D-smash Gimp in general. It's very easy to connect with just the first hit in this game especially against thinner character models, and with the rage effect making it that much more powerful, we could have a OHKO on quite a few members of the cast without needing to set it up with a bomb or anything, just get close while near the edge. Very interesting.
Oh, and the Brawl way of doing the D-smash OHKO is still a thing, you just have to FH, FF (at the very peak of your jump), Z-drop/Zair (returning the joystick to neutral before you do this obviously), then D-smash. You don't have to face away from them then turn around just before the D-smash because the Zair is too slow to come out meaning that you can face them the whole time.

With the boomerang glide, it's easier if you do it out of a run and not an initial dash. You just want to find that sweetspot right on the very edge. Try doing it off the edge of the top platform of BF so you can notice the difference in how far you travelled. Muck around with the timing a bit and you'll see some results.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Yeah it was known that you can do it with every character. It's like, every character can do a DACIT, but only a few can do a Boost Toss as they actually get a decent slide out of it. I had two variations of it in the Brawl Toon AT thread (the ones where he does a fake throw upwards or backwards but the bomb still gets thrown forwards), but when I was transferring things over, I decided not to add it this time around as it was essentially a very difficult tech with no real reason for being there other than amusement or for the sake of completeness.

What you probably didn't know and in fact I doubt it that anyone knows this, as I've never said it anywhere before, is that you can also do a fake throw downwards and still have the bomb get thrown forwards. But this is very difficult and has absolutely no practical use, unlike the variation where you do a fake throw backwards because at least that turns you around (still pointless really).
 

Robby M.

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I found a cool trick to beat my friends who try to ledge camp me whenever I play Toon Link.
Pull out a bomb and then Z-drop or throw the bomb down onto your enemy.
Either they shield and it bounces which you can time for a free hit OR they roll dodge and you get a nice Fair or Nair. Also you can mix it up with the instant bomb throw and such.
Also if the bomb lands right in their face it feels like they get smash hit very easily since they are at the ledge + the knock back of the bomb.
P.S. what are some of the best ways to lead into your kill moves with Toon Link? It seems like there are just so many...
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Yackabean

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Can I just mention that IZAC Dair by the ledge somewhat helps spike heavy fat characters as long as the bomb hits them up close first.

It's probably got a useful rating of 0 but it's worth mentioning I guess.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Can I just mention that IZAC Dair by the ledge somewhat helps spike heavy fat characters as long as the bomb hits them up close first.

It's probably got a useful rating of 0 but it's worth mentioning I guess.
I see what you're trying to say, but 'IZAC' is technically the wrong term (just for the sake of people trying to understand). The 'c' in IZAC is 'catch' and I don't believe you're talking about catching the Bomb. What you're talking about is Z-dropping a Bomb while rising immediately after jumping such that there is no Zair and then comboing it into a Dair, yes? This used to be listed in the Brawl Toon AT's but I didn't bother mentioning it this time around.
 
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Yackabean

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@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive Fox Is Openly Deceptive No, you can catch the bomb.
Like you said, when you jump and drop the bomb the moment you jump, your z-air will not come out. During the first 3 or so frames I believe, the bomb is catchable with ANY ariel. It's essentially an IZAC because you are catching it.
What makes IZAC funny in this game is the fact if you do it up close and catch the bomb during the explosion as well, you might even get a phoenix bomb after it. So it can lead to 3-4 hit combos sometimes.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Right, I understand now that you've explained further. So basically what we have here is the fact that when you do an IZAC up really close, you get a phoenix bomb effect. That's pretty interesting I must say. So then the reason you said it works best on fatties is because it makes it easier for the Bomb to blow up on them as they have a larger hurtbox.
I really like this. Even just because of the fact that it guarantees a phoenix Bomb, something that was up until this point something that would only happen if your opponent was in just the right position at just the right time.

I think we shouldn't be focussing on the 4% the Bomb is doing, or even necessarily on the fact that we can catch the Bomb, heck, we shouldn't even necessarily be focussing on IZAC. What we should be focusing on is how much better Instant Z-dropping is in a game where the Bomb blast doesn't hurt us. It means that we can have a hitbox coming out immediately as we are leaving the ground that has absolutely no end lag and that combos into our aerials. This is kind of a big deal. It means that if we have a Bomb, all of our aerials may as well come out on frame 2 when we are up close. As a rush down and CQC tool, Instant Z-dropping is really good. If they shield, the Bomb bounces off their shield to cover the end lag of our aerials. Toon's dash is fantastic and so if you're playstyle involves getting all up in people's faces, I would highly recommend you look into implementing some Instant Z-dropping (and then work on getting some IZAC's in there too). Learn the timing, try it out, see if it works out for you. The timing is pretty strict; you have been warned.

I added Instant Z-drop as a new AT seeing as it seems to have come into its own.
 
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