• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Trashed my favorite...

PhantomMarth

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
40
Mr. Game&Watch has captured my heart since I unlocked him in Melee and although I originally just liked to troll friends in fun matches with him as I grew up and attempted to work/practice for competitive Melee I found the higher tiers to be angering. I drifted towards the lower end and found myself in the arms of my 2-D lover once more.

I told myself that I most likely would not make it as a top-notch Melee allstar so if I would go to weeklys or big tournaments I would choose G&W.
I found my groove in him.
Then.
Brawl.
Killed.
His.
Kill.
His parachute was a busted move on a underwhelming character that NEEDS A MOVE AS RELIABLE AS THAT to work well. It even fits his wonky theme.
Imagine....
You are walking down the street...see a fight...and the little guy is about to lose so you wince and take a second before looking away and then BAM parachute.
I have been there and done that and regret nothing.

Sm4sh followed Brawl's direction with the dumb fish bowl and now...Ultimate gives us more combo moves in his Up-Air yet not a firm reliable way to end stocks...

Fair...R.I.P

Down-Tilt...R.I.P

Also, what the heck happened to G&W's cooking abilities??? His neutral sucks goose eggs now due to the distance and lag on his Chef you can no longer use it like you could in Brawl/PM/Sm4sh

-He is light and needs a safe move to cover him (Parachute).
-He is fast yet, once again, needs safe moves to gap neutral and approach (Old Fair and Old Chef).

*Feel free to disagree, however I love this character and will still play him...it just hurts but my love will keep on bleeding for Mr. Game&Watch*
 
Last edited:

GhostYB

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
101
f. It's hurts to see how they're treating Game & Watch with this one. Especially since he was a secondary in project m.
 
Last edited:

Rakurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
759
I agree he needs a more reliable aerial kill option, because while the toot-toot kill confirms in Smash 4 were nice, the move was pretty awful on its own due to the hits still not linking properly if you weren't hitting at the precise angle down throw made easy to hit from.

I honestly love the fair bombs, though, because they give him new options in neutral, whereas his old fair mostly filled the same niche as the turtle.

Melee dtilt was nice for how ridiculously fast it was, but his new dtilt is actually insanely powerful and can gimp characters with poor horizontal recoveries at surprisingly low percents and starts killing outright at around 100%.

I'm also not sure how neutral B is worse when they removed one of its biggest flaws by allowing you control over the angles the food flies at on top of buffing its damage to 6% a hit. I actually use it in neutral now that I can feel confident that the food won't leave a gaping hole in its coverage for my opponent to slip through.
 

PhantomMarth

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
40
I agree he needs a more reliable aerial kill option, because while the toot-toot kill confirms in Smash 4 were nice, the move was pretty awful on its own due to the hits still not linking properly if you weren't hitting at the precise angle down throw made easy to hit from.

I honestly love the fair bombs, though, because they give him new options in neutral, whereas his old fair mostly filled the same niche as the turtle.

Melee dtilt was nice for how ridiculously fast it was, but his new dtilt is actually insanely powerful and can gimp characters with poor horizontal recoveries at surprisingly low percents and starts killing outright at around 100%.

I'm also not sure how neutral B is worse when they removed one of its biggest flaws by allowing you control over the angles the food flies at on top of buffing its damage to 6% a hit. I actually use it in neutral now that I can feel confident that the food won't leave a gaping hole in its coverage for my opponent to slip through.
I probably have not explored the controllable aspect of his Chef! @_@
I was not learned on this minor buff! Not that you mentioned it! Thankyou.
The fair is good, since practicing tech with it, yet muscle memory kicks in and I try to use it when get up from ledge!
I prefer the old fair and do not agree with the turtle comment, turtle ledge pocks due to the multiple hitboxes.
 

Royta

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
284
Location
Netherlands, Bilthoven
Wasn't Game and Watch high tier in Brawl? Remember doing friendlies with one of the better EU players at the time - his G&W was fantastic, very hard to kill character.

That said I never liked G&W until Ultimate. Don't know why but he feels very fun to play for me now. His cheff is a delightful troll move and combos nicely in his Fair for edgeguarding. Fair is insane as always. Agree his old Nair needs to return though, having big problems with kill moves. Fair is a ton of fun though.
 

Bendario

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
172
I have achieved Elite smash with G&W, and can say without question he is the worst character in Ultimate. ALL of his moves are slow, all but turtle bridge have poor reach, the bomb is horrendous against even slightly competent players, and spitball sparky is a massive downgrade from reliable aerial juggle and kill move to mediocre damage dealer. Down tilt being slightly stronger does not at all make up for literally removing its reach, and up smash's invincibility has been neutered, making it simply a bad smash attack. Everything has too much startup, not enough power, and G&W is too damn light to be slow, short reached, AND weak. Oh, and none of his grabs are worth a damn past about 40%. The only saving graces of any sort are down smash being a great tool (but still slow as hell to come out), chef doing a good amount of damage, and turtle still having its reach plus a new tipper that knocks sideways (even if it is still weaker than before). Bucket is a great upgrade that means little when everyone in the cast but Mii Gunner has better Melee attacks than you, meaning they can simply not use projectiles and still outclass you.

Seriously, fair is abysmal. It's a contender for worst move in the game. It can't edgeguard well because the slightest hint of a hitbox eliminates it entirely. People can run, jump, and attack right through it meaning it is only good for spacing against bad players who don't know how the move works. Using it at all should be considered a mistake that should only occur when you meant to be facing the other way and using turtle. Up tilt is ruined beyond repair, too, but at least it does its job should they be in one of its two tiny, weak hitboxes.

Playing G&W is now an exercise in patience that nobody else in the cast has to deal with. Abuse chef, sparky, jab, nair, or turtle to build damage, hope to hit with down tilt or side tilt, do your best to smack them to the blast zone with turtle or up B. Alternatively, attempt to trick them into getting hit with down smash, hope for the sweet spot, and hit the grounded opponent with side smash.

Seriously, get to elite smash and watch the losses suddenly go from being close calls to full on wipes against players with real characters. With luck, the clods that balanced G&W will see how bad he is and give him some much needed attention. I could forgive it all if fair was at least somewhat usable. no other players try harder than G&W players. You guys are all great, and they just spit in our faces.
 

Vermilion

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Messages
52
Why are you mad about D-tilt though? It kills decently early on the whole cast. Neutral-B also does a ton of damage and can be angled, so I don’t think it was nerfed.
 
Last edited:

Bendario

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
172
Chef is fine. Like I said, it is something you can abuse to get solid damage. Down tilt was already a powerful move, and it being stronger is nice, but it doesn't at all make up for the removal of its range and windbox. One of G&W's biggest issues is lack of range. It was previously an excellent poke that was used for spacing and even edgeguarding. It is now simply another move with a tiny hitbox that anyone with reach (especially sword characters) can simply stuff. It must be used like Jigg's rest or Luigi's ping, but it can only be done on the ground and is not near as powerful.
 

Ze Diglett

Smash Champion
Writing Team
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
2,808
Location
NASB2
NNID
ZeDiglett
Yeah, I'm not feeling G&W in this game either, which sucks since I liked him a lot in the past games. His new Fair in particular just disgusts me, as it could potentially be worth a damn if it didn't poof on contact with any hitbox whatsoever (and exploded on contact, for that matter; it's a bomb, for ****'s sake). If Brawl G&W was a glass cannon and Smash 4 G&W was just glass, then... I don't even know what to call this version of G&W. Styrofoam, maybe? A few of his moves got some neat changes, but at what cost? Usmash's I-frames... Dtilt's range and windbox... we don't even have Dthrow combos anymore! I seriously don't know what they were thinking nerfing this character when he was already barely mid-tier in the last game. Current G&W is definitely a contender for worst character in my book, and I really hope he doesn't just get ignored like he did in Smash 4's patches, because right now he just feels like a mess.
 

Rakurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
759
Lack of range is probably his biggest issue. He has an easy time getting people to percents where his tilts can kill between neutral B edgeguards and uair spam, but actually connecting with them is the hard part because they have even less range then his jab, which is honestly an abnormality.

He also really doesn't any effective means of defending himself from people coming down from above onto him anymore outside of up B due to how minuscule the up smash i-frames are now, coupled with his new utilt having absolutely miserable coverage/disjoint. You'd think they'd make his head intangible during the move with how huge of a target it is...but nope, only his hands are, which is utterly pointless when the flag is already protecting them.

Making the fair bombs explode on contact would also make them a lot more threatening in pretty much every situation, particularly edgeguarding.
 
Last edited:

Needle of Juntah

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 25, 2003
Messages
2,580
Location
Rochester, Michigan
I played G&W since melee, some of you may know me. I actually liked Smash 5 GW more than Brawl and Sm4sh. Granted, I agree, they took away a lot of his kill potential. I do love his new Fair, but would have much rather seen his Fair(from melee) just have no lag on it instead of having to full jump double bomb just to create space for other crap that a lot of times puts you in a awkward spot.

I played it for a few weeks and returned my switch.... I probably wont be playing much competitively but you MIGHT just see some videos one day soon of your favorite G&W God since melee :)
 

Royta

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
284
Location
Netherlands, Bilthoven
Played a lot of matches with him, I really enjoy the character but I am running into issues. Characters that can out-space your Bair are basically a totally different match-up and will wreck you badly. The Fair is useless outside of very specific setups that rarely happen, it being negated by a single hit doesn't help. Lacking any sort of kill move isn't helping either, you have to connect a Smash or an Ftilt near the ledge - or the foe is living to 200%.
 

Rakurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
759
He's not lacking in kill moves so much as he's lacking in set-ups. Ftilt, dtilt, fair, and dair are all perfectly passable options, though getting them to connect raw can be extremely difficult depending on who you're fighting. Down smash kills early due to it being able to true combo into fsmash at percents where it'll be lethal, so I feel as though fsmash isn't even worth throwing out against unburied targets anymore.

I feel like G&W really needs to capitalize on his edgeguarding capabilities at every chance to do well in most match-ups (Almost every KO I saw Maister get in a recent tourney was by going way off stage and connecting a bair).
 
Last edited:

Royta

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
284
Location
Netherlands, Bilthoven
I know what you mean, could have worded it better. He has kill options, but actually getting them to connect is something else entirely. Kind of takes me back to Brawl where I mained Ike - getting a kill with him could be pretty difficulty against certain players and characters as your kill moves rarely connected. Saw a lot of off-stage Bairs too yeah for edgeguarding, some upB stagespikes as well.
 

Luxent

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
202
Location
Hiding with Mr. Saturn
NNID
Luxent
Switch FC
247632609328
I considered game&watch a secondary of mine, but in Ultimate they really threw him into the bin.
Whoever changed his moves around didnt really think to make the moves connect or interlink in anyway. He was supposed to be some kind of quick little RNG high-risk character, with decent combos and good movement options and now he's like a weird amalgamation of nothing. Hit&Run? maybe???? who knows.

The new FAIR is terrible...considering almost everything cancels it out, and the explosion it makes actually has a tiny tiny tiny hitbox.
If the fair just exploded on contact and had a slightly bigger hitbox, it would be fine...

TLDR; He is awful.
 
Last edited:

Rakurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
759
He occurs to me as one of those characters that could potentially become a lot better in a future patch because he really only needs a reliable method of getting kills.

Racking up damage is no issue between his uair juggles and neutral B edgeguards so even something as simple as turning up throw into a kill throw would be huge for him, though I'd just want his fair to be better mostly since it had the potential to be really good but is just gimmicky with how limited its range is coupled with how easily it gets snuffed out.
 
Last edited:

Luxent

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
202
Location
Hiding with Mr. Saturn
NNID
Luxent
Switch FC
247632609328
He occurs to me as one of those characters that could potentially become a lot better in a future patch because he really only needs a reliable method of getting kills.
.
Hard Truth.

Right now his most reliable kill option is dropping off the stage and using Bair to slam someone into the stage. :laugh:
 

NouveauRétro

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2015
Messages
319
Location
Long Island, currently upstate
NNID
Royal_Bros.
Oh, and none of his grabs are worth a damn past about 40%.
This the one statement I really gotta correct, you still get at minimum 20% per grab until like 90% and even then you still have up throw Up B. You can still down throw double nair Up B at 0 for 43%, you can upthrow nair Up B as well, up throw combos for a good while as well. At later percents down throw nair does deceent damage and setups up juggles, the only thing he's missing is an actual way to kill off throw before 180%, :(

Also he still edge guards really well.
 
Last edited:

Rakurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
759
I kinda wish they gave uair a sweetspot on his mouth that has actual kill power.

I also wish utilt wasn't garbage because it can't even link its hits properly at percents where it kills. The Smash 4 utilt was actually good at anti-airing and juggling, but I legit can't find a situation where you wouldn't be better off doing something else in Ultimate. They could fix it by just making it work like a normal utilt with two hits of the same knockback/trajectory and giving it head intangibility.
 
Last edited:

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
Location
Melbourne, FL
Do you have any idea what frame utilt hits on? Might be a good juggle setup Oos, or just a jab/upb mixup.
 

GamefreakDX

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
11
Location
London
3DS FC
3067-6277-7612
I think Mr. Game & Watch doesn't have enough buffs to keep up with the rest of the cast. He can rack up the damage, but he lacks KO set ups, I find.
The biggest travesty in my opinion is the new FAir. If only it could act like the original FAir, but if it misses, then it acts like how it does in this game, or the explosion actually being reliable, or something.
 

Royta

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
284
Location
Netherlands, Bilthoven
I tend to use Fair as 'cover', since the explosion makes it very hard for enemies to see what you're doing. If you spam it during an approach and suddenly dash at them, some tend to panic shield or do something else that's dumb. I think Fair is a move that's as good as you use it, it can be fantastic but you have to accept that it won't do things you want - like murder since even a sneeze in its direction stuffs it.
 

VDZ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Messages
130
Location
Netherlands
Do you have any idea what frame utilt hits on? Might be a good juggle setup Oos, or just a jab/upb mixup.
As far as I'm aware, up tilt no longer hits opponents horizontally next to you (if it does it has insanely short range) and can only feasibly be used against opponents right above you. It's definitely not an alternative for the jab.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Do you have any idea what frame utilt hits on? Might be a good juggle setup Oos, or just a jab/upb mixup.
Just checked, and up tilt is still capable of hitting opponents horizontally front of you, with the exception being Pichu (basically the only character smaller than G&W); however, the move comes out on frame 10, which compared to jab or up-B (or even his other tilts), is pretty slow overall, so you don't want to throw it out too often. You can use it once in a while to mix up your OoS options, tho, and the move itself leads into 30~45% combos at low percents, which is definitely nice. :)
 

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
Location
Melbourne, FL
Just checked, and up tilt is still capable of hitting opponents horizontally front of you, with the exception being Pichu (basically the only character smaller than G&W); however, the move comes out on frame 10, which compared to jab or up-B (or even his other tilts), is pretty slow overall, so you don't want to throw it out too often. You can use it once in a while to mix up your OoS options, tho, and the move itself leads into 30~45% combos at low percents, which is definitely nice. :)
Thanks for looking into that. They sure love trolling us with new G&W tech that only function as mix-ups :facepalm: Could be he's meant to be played this way.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Thanks for looking into that. They sure love trolling us with new G&W tech that only function as mix-ups :facepalm: Could be he's meant to be played this way.
I think that could be the idea; Fire (especially now that it's frame 3) is a ridiculously good OoS option, but he's got a few other good OoS: Jab is still solid, and F-Tilt and D-Tilt are much better OoS options now thanks to their damage/knockback buffs >w< I imagine they intended for Fire to be his main go-to option, but gave him other options to reduce the redundancy of going for the same thing over and over thing.
 

VodkaHaze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
400
NNID
VodkaHaze58
If I'm honest, I knew I wasn't going to main him again due to making his moves look like the original Game & Watch models. But the issue I have is he doesn't have a reliable kill option. Changing Dtilt and Uair makes it so he doesn't have reliable kill options, though Uair wasn't very reliable for me back in Smash 4. And that was the biggest issue I had playing him was it was always difficult to kill your opponent, but they had an easy time because you're one of the lightest characters in the game.

He could become good in a future patch, but as of right now, I think he's low tier, especially since a lot of other characters got buffed.
 

CostLow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
388
Location
Germany
3DS FC
2509-2293-9367
Have you guys seen any footage of Maister's G&W? I don't own Ultimate yet but between my times playing and watching footage of some of the G&W players I look up to I just don't see it. There seems to be a lot of hate for this little dude but those guys are doing some really awesome stuff with him and I've really enjoyed playing him too. Maybe he's just changed too much for most of you to embrace, but I like him still and just might main him if one of my other interests don't take his spot.
 

Rakurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
759
The thing about Ultimate's balance right now is that while it seems everyone is at least good, some characters are better.

It is possible G&W is being sold short due to how little representation he gets currently, but he doesn't seem to doing all that hot competitively even in the hands of his best players right now.
 

CostLow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
388
Location
Germany
3DS FC
2509-2293-9367
The thing about Ultimate's balance right now is that while it seems everyone is at least good, some characters are better.

It is possible G&W is being sold short due to how little representation he gets currently, but he doesn't seem to doing all that hot competitively even in the hands of his best players right now.
If you are referring to Gimr you are looking at the wrong guy. Search for videos of Maister. He's been winning loads of tourneys with G&W. There are some other good showings for G&W out there but I think Gimr just needs to lab him a little more deliberately and he'll start seeing similar success.
 
Last edited:

Rakurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
759
Welp, fair is a bit better now thanks to the patch.

The explosion radius is noticeably larger now, maybe about twice the width of the bomb instead of practically just the size of the bomb itself.

It's still not that great but the bigger blast radius means people need to respect it a bit more.
 
Last edited:

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
While I did hope that both hits of FAir would link to each other on aerial opponents the same way it does for grounded opponents, this is a nice change as well.

Apparently, the auto-cancel window of DAir changed? I was able to auto-cancel the attack after using Full Hop + Fire, but I forgot if you could always do this or not.
 

xxxxThe_GoaTxxxx

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
810
Location
North Hollywood, CA
What G&W really needs is his Up Smash to regain its full body invincibility frames from Smash 4.

F-Aerial got slightly buffed in 2.0, but it's not enough.

His Down Tilt can kill but the range is waaaay too small.

Everything else is great in Ultimate. His Down Smash is his most reliable kill move (bury) and he has amazing air options. Judge, Chef and Bucket all make him deceptively powerful.

He's SO close to being high tier...but not yet.
 

Rakurai

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
759
The generous i-frames on his smash 4 up smash really forced people to respect the space above him, since now the only reliable options he has for that are up B and uair, neither of which are going to ever be fatal.

The i-frames are so brief now that when they actually work it tends to just feel like a fluke.
 

candysell

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
42
I disagree that Game&Watch is worse in this game. Sure his up smash doesn't have supet armor anymore and his fair is not as great as it once was, but the fact that his bucket not only absorbs, but also reflects makes him dangerous. Good luck Snake.

If you want combos, do a:
Dthrow ->nair->up b->dair
Or
Dthrow->nair->uair

It usually works.

He's a really good character. So far I'm undefeated with him in elite smash.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom