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Transmissions to Hocotate - Olimar Video Archive and Critique Thread

Noa.

Smash Master
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That was good. Nietono is so purposeful with his tossing. Re really uses it to apply pressure on his opponent.

:phone:
 

crow95

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What I appreciate the most is his incredible zoning, he is so safe while doing his crap, I do not see any other Olimar is doing it that good. Hell, I played quite a lot against quiK and we were even, but Nietono is, espescially in the second game, kinda dominating.
 

crow95

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haha I don't mind. Im a german olimar fellow who's kinda unknown ;D I am getting better and better tho, placing 9th at BiB3 with almost all the european top players present.
 

Noa.

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Wow that sounds pretty good. I know these boards are nearly dead, but you should join us in our social thread. Just feel welcome here. :)
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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Second smashfest in half of a year, first one where we had singles.

BloodyBoom (Snake) v. SkyPirateCoud (Olimar)
1 2 3

Poltergust (Yoshi) v. SkyPirateCoud (Olimar)
1 2

I'm starting to notice that what Razer told me a while back is true. I'm not really good at dealing with Snake up-close.
Advice?
 

Noa.

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Well Olimar as a character doesn't do well against Snake up close. You have to be really on top of your reaction time and timing to keep up with Snake. I'll watch the vids later and comment on them!

:phone:
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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lakjsaldjasldkajsl

I thought that it meant that it was an individual personality flaw, like "You're bad at dealing with Snake up-close, but other Olimars aren't."
I assumed there was something I was missing about our options for dealing with Snake once he gets in.
 

crow95

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I dont think his options are soo strong as long as he dont get that grab. That dthrow techchase can destroy us so badly.
 

Dnyce

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No, it was nothing personal... It is just part of the MU.

Jab clashes with ftilt, And our grab extends our hurtboxes toward snake on start-up while fsmash extends them are cool down. These are a few things that have helped me deal with snake.
Also jab > ftilt is an interesting mixup. Not going to say which is supposed to hit or which is supposed to space or which is supposed to help you get away... It's just something you'll learn from trying it out ^^;
 

Noa.

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The video against jtails doesn't exist.

It's the beginnig of the match so far and you're doing well. Grabs **** Fox.

Nice whistle agaisnt the uair. You're having an easy time landing usmash.

You also land the chaingrab often lol.

Bad DI got your first stock. You played well first game lol. Easy stuff.

Try to keep control of as much of the stage as you can against snake. You're getting those grabs well and you killed him with a badly DI'd fsmash. lol Pivot grab mindgames.

Sh toss to fair when he's right there is a risky option. He didn't punish it though so whatevs. At like 4:26 you could've naired when he airdodge into you. It was free. You must have been scared of bair though.

You're really on point during this set lol. lol read that airdodge into double dsmash.

Well you roflstomped Linkx. So there's not much to say lol.
 

professor mgw

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The video against jtails doesn't exist.

It's the beginnig of the match so far and you're doing well. Grabs **** Fox.

Nice whistle agaisnt the uair. You're having an easy time landing usmash.

You also land the chaingrab often lol.

Bad DI got your first stock. You played well first game lol. Easy stuff.

Try to keep control of as much of the stage as you can against snake. You're getting those grabs well and you killed him with a badly DI'd fsmash. lol Pivot grab mindgames.

Sh toss to fair when he's right there is a risky option. He didn't punish it though so whatevs. At like 4:26 you could've naired when he airdodge into you. It was free. You must have been scared of bair though.

You're really on point during this set lol. lol read that airdodge into double dsmash.

Well you roflstomped Linkx. So there's not much to say lol.
Alright thanks for pointing those thinqs out anyway lol.

try this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOi86K-pCXs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

:phone:
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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I'm not good at fighting MK, but

1. Stop screwing up inputs. I don't know what else to say about this one.

2. Every time he respawned, he fastfalled a Dair and you took it. Every time, it put you in a bad position.
Be more adaptive. Don't accept things as they are.

3. Don't just randomly Uthrow. That's the primary kill throw.
Fthrow/Bthrow when it could kill or put them in a bad position, Dthrow almost every other time.

4. Stop constantly landing/airdodging/Nairing/whatever into him.
Remember that you have a second jump and footstooling to escape pressure
 

professor mgw

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I'm not good at fighting MK, but

1. Stop screwing up inputs. I don't know what else to say about this one.

2. Every time he respawned, he fastfalled a Dair and you took it. Every time, it put you in a bad position.
Be more adaptive. Don't accept things as they are.

3. Don't just randomly Uthrow. That's the primary kill throw.
Fthrow/Bthrow when it could kill or put them in a bad position, Dthrow almost every other time.

4. Stop constantly landing/airdodging/Nairing/whatever into him.
Remember that you have a second jump and footstooling to escape pressure
Thanks for the input! Lol Idk why I always mess up on my inputs. v.v

:phone:
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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I haven't played a Bowser in a LONG time, but I'll take a crack at giving some rants based on what I see.

1. Fsmash IS good against Bowser, but don't Fsmash up slopes. This one is just something you need to know not to do.

1.5. Fsmash and/or stutterstepped Fsmash can shut down klawhopping approaches, literally BEAT a Klaw after it has already connected*, catch him off-guard when he's running in, cure cancer, and save Gotham from the Joker. He can get around it by powershielding, jabbing the pikmin away, or coming in with an aerial Sideb (kind of telegraphed, lets you know when you're doing it too close to him). Spaced firebreath can be used, but it does little damage in short bursts and you can easily SDI in to punish with the longer ones.

*You have to charge the smash and release it right before the Klaw connects. It has kind of a specific timing. You can also do it with Dsmash, don't really know about Usmash. I believe it's just that since the attack is independent of Olimar after it starts, you can time it to hit Bowser a split-second after he grabs you.

2. Yoshi's Island is one of the worst choices against Bowser anyway. It's not necessarily "bad" for us (we do have some advantages there, like when we're under the large platform), it's just that there are better stages to choose. Strike it.

3. Mindlessly airdodging/rolling/whatever into Bowser is a bad idea. Usmash/Dsmash/Pivot Grab/even UpB can catch airdodges and rolls EASILY.
If he commits to an aerial approach, though, a roll behind him can help with relieving the pressure and possibly reverse momentum.

4. GR to Jab to regrab isn't true. You can DI out of that ground-release CG. Either that, or I just never had it done properly on me. Either way, try to DI out of it rather than just randomly trying to mash out of his grabs. I think you could also just spotdodge or Jab between them, but they can Fsmash a baited spotdodge.

5. This is just something you have to train, but get used to the spacing and timing of his Klaw. It's a major part of his game and if you can do that, it's much easier to avoid. From what I've seen, they often use it when approaching from a certain angle, when you're shielding on a platform, when you sit in your shield too long... Ugh, I had a list, but I'm too tired to look for it now. They can also cancel a Klaw when going through platforms or landing.

6. You don't want to be on/near a ledge with Bowser, especially on Yoshi's Island. His edgeguarding is like Marth's, except he has some slightly different tools and an airgrab.

7. If you Nair his shield, you may take an UpB. Always try for an Utilt after a Nair on-shield instead of an Usmash, as it comes out faster and has a better chance of clanking without hurting you. His UpB has invincibility from frames 1-5, so it's like Marth's Dolphin Slash (except he can actually move while doing it).

8. You in air + Bowser almost anywhere near you = Really bad idea, even with our Fair

8.5. Bowser anywhere near you is still a bad idea, just not as bad as when you're in the air

8.75. Bowser above you = Not bad, though

More later when I can actually watch the entire thing without zoning out. ^^;
 

kelumhi

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When you short hop pickman toss, remember to fastfall, it should be the default with exceptions being made against it.

Short hop pickman toss can get pickman on some pretty nasty places (back of shell) against Bowser where he cant get them off, he will just charge at you when this happens.

Try not to roll, Bowser grab range and speed is not impressive, so consider just grabbing him or shield then grabbing him when you are being pressured against the ledge, then just run away while short hop pickman toss some more.

A few times when knocked off the edge you should have DI'ed up to give more recovery options, though you recovered anyways.

Im not sure how i feel about the Up-b to return a pickman to front, I would think it would be better to attach one back on for the damage and it would be more safe.

Try not to approach if you don't have to, if he comes at you it limits his options, which may allow you to knock him back far enough for a few more pickman toss.

Edit: Also consider moving away from your enemy when you throw out an aerial. If you miss your often safe, unlike if they shield it when you move towards them your SOL.

Edit 2: Remember, This matchup is in your favor, own it and dont holdback. if he is in your box then throw him out and call him sally. if you have trouble getting into a groove between matches, loose the pants.
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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I'll look them over in a bit, Putoguiri.

So, these are some videos playing with friends. I guess I'm a noob but I'd like to get better. Could you tell me where to start? They are against a G&W.
Game 1

- Don't challenge G&W's Dair with Usmash. You won't win.

- Don't CONSTANTLY pursue him. When you ran out after him on the electric phase (twice), it put you in a REALLY bad position when you could have just taken the middle and forced him to come to you with Pikmin Toss or waited out the phase.
This is just a general thing to remember. Be more patient and force HIM to come to you.

- Don't divebomb Dair close to the ground. It has a buttload of landing lag.

- Pivot grab can outspace his Bair. Should consider using it more often over standing grab.
Or you can SDI up and in and Fair him.

- Dthrow more. If you get a Dthrow at a low percentage, Usmash or Fair is usually guaranteed (and you can follow Usmash with Uair to Uair to UpB or something, depending on what they do). At mid/high percentages, it still puts them in a bad position or sets up for a Fair/DJ Fair OR you can bait out a response. Fthrow or Bthrow may be better for setting up a gimp or killing (if you expect them to DI a certain way) and Uthrow is best overall for killing. Dthrowing also helps to keep these moves fresh.

- Getting juggled by Uair is a bad, but it has to end sometime. Airdodging doesn't really help. Just keep pushing away from him in different directions when it's happening and eventually he'll either drop it or try for a move to punish your airdodge. Looking at the terrain and counting his jumps helps (like push over the conveyor belt on the electric phase when he has already used his second jump or something).

- Uair and fastfall to momentum cancel rather than doing random stuff.

- You can grab G&W off the ledge. Don't be RIGHT next to the edge, but try to put it near max range. Just a heads-up, as it can put a bit of pressure on him.

Will update this post when I watch another.
 

Putoguiri

Smash Rookie
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Oct 4, 2012
Messages
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U need some 3D headphones.

That will help u improve the most.
I feel trolled...



I'll look them over in a bit, Putoguiri.



Game 1

- Don't challenge G&W's Dair with Usmash. You won't win.

- Don't CONSTANTLY pursue him. When you ran out after him on the electric phase (twice), it put you in a REALLY bad position when you could have just taken the middle and forced him to come to you with Pikmin Toss or waited out the phase.
This is just a general thing to remember. Be more patient and force HIM to come to you.

- Don't divebomb Dair close to the ground. It has a buttload of landing lag.

- Pivot grab can outspace his Bair. Should consider using it more often over standing grab.
Or you can SDI up and in and Fair him.

- Dthrow more. If you get a Dthrow at a low percentage, Usmash or Fair is usually guaranteed (and you can follow Usmash with Uair to Uair to UpB or something, depending on what they do). At mid/high percentages, it still puts them in a bad position or sets up for a Fair/DJ Fair OR you can bait out a response. Fthrow or Bthrow may be better for setting up a gimp or killing (if you expect them to DI a certain way) and Uthrow is best overall for killing. Dthrowing also helps to keep these moves fresh.

- Getting juggled by Uair is a bad, but it has to end sometime. Airdodging doesn't really help. Just keep pushing away from him in different directions when it's happening and eventually he'll either drop it or try for a move to punish your airdodge. Looking at the terrain and counting his jumps helps (like push over the conveyor belt on the electric phase when he has already used his second jump or something).

- Uair and fastfall to momentum cancel rather than doing random stuff.

- You can grab G&W off the ledge. Don't be RIGHT next to the edge, but try to put it near max range. Just a heads-up, as it can put a bit of pressure on him.

Will update this post when I watch another.

Many thanks, that was really in depth of you.

- I know, sometimes the Usmash is just a reflex. (Although a well time purple pikmin will send him flying, even if he does a Dair, won't it?)

- Less chasing, more stage control, got it.

- Are there any safe approaches from the air for Olimar?

- These matches are somewhat old, nowadays I drive him mad with pivot grabs :)

- Yes, I normally downthrow into drownthrow (if he chooses not to jump) or follow up with fair. I've yet to see an Usmash connect with downthrow :S Fthrow and Bthrow are for DI mindgames, if the opponent gets used to it I Upthrow (not just with the purple, I think the blue pikmin will kill him too at 120% or something with bad DI)

- Getting juggled is the bane of Olimars, I need to get better timing on airdodging/whistle

- And I need to get myself inscribed on a momentum cancel bootcamp, I know the theory, I've been able to reproduce it on practice mode... but in a match I'm stupid and do not do it :(

- I know, I can grab him even in the air if it's timed right (more chance for a gimp since he won't have his jump). If I don't do it in this matches it's because I don't want to overuse it.

Many thanks and please update when you see another!
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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I- I know, sometimes the Usmash is just a reflex. (Although a well time purple pikmin will send him flying, even if he does a Dair, won't it?)
Depends on whether the purple survives. If someone strikes your pikmin during the "charging" period of a smash and the pikmin survives (and said move doesn't hit you before the smash executes), it'll rocket like that. Blues/Purples are just easier to rocket because they have more health and are more likely to survive a hit when they're freshly plucked.

- Are there any safe approaches from the air for Olimar?
For getting grounded?

- A well-timed fastfalled airdodge is one of the better options, as whistle doesn't outlast his Nair. You can't fastfall DURING an airdodge, so you have to fastfall and THEN airdodge.
Do this when he tries to mix Nairs in with his Uairs to get damage.

- Whistle bouncing around can help with breaking out of Uair juggling

- Whistle can be used if you see that he's done trying to condition you with Uair and tries an Usmash/Dsmash.

- Whistle -> Nair

- Whistle -> Airdodge

Footstooling isn't as safe in this one because of their impulse to Nair/Uair/Usmash when we're up there.

- I've yet to see an Usmash connect with downthrow :S
You have to do it when they're at low percentages.
There is a certain critical percentage at which a move's hitstun drops from 31 frames to 14 frames (this differs by character and pikmin).
For example, Dthrow hitstun on Snake is 14 for the following percentages:

Red: 13+%
Yellow: 17+%
Blue: 23+%
White: 26+%
Purple: Always 14, doesn't combo

(Information courtesy of Hilt)

So in terms of ability to combo out of a Dthrow, White>Blue>Yellow>Red>Purple.
Yellows, however, have an extra three frames of hitlag, so the frame advantage will always be three more than with other pikmin (meaning that you'll have an ever-so-slightly larger window to input the Usmash/Fair).


- I know, I can grab him even in the air if it's timed right (more chance for a gimp since he won't have his jump). If I don't do it in this matches it's because I don't want to overuse it.
Pfft, who cares?
Grabbing near the ledge restricts his options and forces him to focus on getting around it, so feel free to spam timed grabs a safe distance from the ledge.
Just keep an eye on what he's doing to get around it and adjust your reactions accordingly.
 

kelumhi

Smash Cadet
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- Are there any safe approaches from the air for Olimar?
Oh, i love Nair -> land cancel -> UpSmash -> juggle against G&W. If you see him getting D-smash happy this is a nice way to make him fear you. But you really shouldnt be approaching him, especially from the air.

- These matches are somewhat old, nowadays I drive him mad with pivot grabs :)
i hit that wall against my G&W buddy as well, but sending him THIS vid helped him get around those pivots.
 

Putoguiri

Smash Rookie
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Messages
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Depends on whether the purple survives. If someone strikes your pikmin during the "charging" period of a smash and the pikmin survives (and said move doesn't hit you before the smash executes), it'll rocket like that. Blues/Purples are just easier to rocket because they have more health and are more likely to survive a hit when they're freshly plucked.
I meant it more like trading attacks, I've been able to reproduce pikmin rocketing but isn't it too luck based to set up in match?
For getting grounded?

- A well-timed fastfalled airdodge is one of the better options, as whistle doesn't outlast his Nair. You can't fastfall DURING an airdodge, so you have to fastfall and THEN airdodge.
Do this when he tries to mix Nairs in with his Uairs to get damage.

- Whistle bouncing around can help with breaking out of Uair juggling

- Whistle can be used if you see that he's done trying to condition you with Uair and tries an Usmash/Dsmash.

- Whistle -> Nair

- Whistle -> Airdodge

Footstooling isn't as safe in this one because of their impulse to Nair/Uair/Usmash when we're up there.
What do you mean with "whistle bouncing?"
You have to do it when they're at low percentages.
There is a certain critical percentage at which a move's hitstun drops from 31 frames to 14 frames (this differs by character and pikmin).
For example, Dthrow hitstun on Snake is 14 for the following percentages:

Red: 13+%
Yellow: 17+%
Blue: 23+%
White: 26+%
Purple: Always 14, doesn't combo

(Information courtesy of Hilt)

So in terms of ability to combo out of a Dthrow, White>Blue>Yellow>Red>Purple.
Yellows, however, have an extra three frames of hitlag, so the frame advantage will always be three more than with other pikmin (meaning that you'll have an ever-so-slightly larger window to input the Usmash/Fair).
Wow, that's really useful information! I didn't know of the critical percentage where the hitstun changes.

Speaking of downthrows, If I was to buffer an input for the followup, how do I time it? Right when the opponent is about to touch the ground? Since my G&W buffers his Dthrow followups all the time (he chases my rolls with other grabs and dash attacks) I think it's time to step up my game.

Pfft, who cares?
Grabbing near the ledge restricts his options and forces him to focus on getting around it, so feel free to spam timed grabs a safe distance from the ledge.
Just keep an eye on what he's doing to get around it and adjust your reactions accordingly.
Should I throw in some Fsmashes too for good measure?

Oh, i love Nair -> land cancel -> UpSmash -> juggle against G&W. If you see him getting D-smash happy this is a nice way to make him fear you. But you really shouldnt be approaching him, especially from the air.
Nair -> Land cancel nowadays ends with a shieldgrab. It's only safe when the Nair connects.

But I guess you're right and I should be approaching from the air when he expects it and is ready to shield.



Ps: Thanks guys, you are being really helpful :)
 

Sky Pirate

The best defense is a lot of frigging healing
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I meant it more like trading attacks, I've been able to reproduce pikmin rocketing but isn't it too luck based to set up in match?
It is pretty hard to space it so that ONLY the pikmin gets hit, yes.
BUT ACTUALLY, it's one of the things that makes JC Usmash OoS good.

Let's say that the opponent strikes your shield with a single hit (imagine G&W's Fsmash or something). Since that attack has already struck your shield, it can't continue to hurt you even though it still has an active hitbox (as it isn't a multi-hit move and it has already struck you once). But since it still has an active hitbox and the pikmin is considered a separate entity from Olimar, the pikmin is struck when you start to charge the smash (as it didn't strike him yet).
Assuming it survives, the conditions for a rocket are created without the need for the incredibly annoying spacing.

And about the trading thing, sometimes a move'll clank with the pikmin, but still goes through and hits Olimar. Like I mentioned earlier, Olimar and the pikmin are treated as separate entities for non-aerial moves that use Pikmin (smashes, throws, etc.), so Olimar'll still get hit even though it clanked with the pikmin.

On another note, because they are treated as separate entities, the pikmin go through hitlag for the aforementioned non-aerial pikmin moves while Olimar does not, which allows us to start another action MUCH earlier than we might have.
Olimar still goes through hitlag for aerials and moves that Olimar himself does, though.

SORRY, DONE RANTING.

What do you mean with "whistle bouncing?"
From the guide:
* Whistle Bouncing (B-Reversal) -
Input a whistle in the direction you're facing, then press in the opposite direction within four frames. The easiest way to do this would be to press 321 on the control stick (or Forward-Down, Down, Back-Down), pressing the "Special" button on the 3 (or Forward-Down) input. Used mostly for aerial mindgames, can also be used at an edge as a quick way of getting under semi-permeable platforms.
Usefulness:
There is a section in the guide for Advanced Techniques, BTW.
If you can't find a term that we throw around, you could use the old CTRL+F in there (or in the Standard Terms List, if you don't find it in Deflowered).

Wow, that's really useful information! I didn't know of the critical percentage where the hitstun changes.
Just remember that hitstun varies depending on character, launch speed, etc., so those critical percentages won't be the same across characters.
Like compare Snake's values:

Red: 13+%
Yellow: 17+%
Blue: 23+%
White: 26+%
Purple: Always 14, doesn't combo

With Metaknight's:

Red: 9+%
Yellow: 13+%
Blue: 16+%
White: 20+%
Purple: OMG STILL WON'T COMBO

Quite a bit different, no?
Finding hitstun takes a lot of work and effort and time and conjunctions (unless you know the equation, which I do not), so we REALLY don't have a lot of hitstun information.

Speaking of downthrows, If I was to buffer an input for the followup, how do I time it? Right when the opponent is about to touch the ground?
The FAF of Dthrow is 36, so you can start buffering it as early as frame 26.
For visual clues, that's about when Olimar starts to raise his head again after giving the "slam that guy" command. It's a short time after the opponent starts to rise after being slammed. It comes easier with practice, once you kind of train yourself to react a certain amount of time after the impact sound.
I REALLY hope that made sense. ^^;

Should I throw in some Fsmashes too for good measure?
Usually doesn't hurt. Fsmash is a good tool for forcing people off the ledge or dealing with planking.
I just don't like using it against a G&W on the ledge because he can Uair the pikmin into space and still get back on the ledge, whereas the pikmin is invincible during a grab (and occasionally likes to catch people under the ledge at weird times).

Nair -> Land cancel nowadays ends with a shieldgrab. It's only safe when the Nair connects.

But I guess you're right and I should be approaching from the air when he expects it and is ready to shield.
Yeah, Nair on shield is generally pretty unsafe.

Ps: Thanks guys, you are being really helpful :)
No problem. I love giving long-winded explanations. ^_^
 

Splice

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Olimar vs DDD Game 1 and 3
Game 2 was not recorded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVh00QbgKEQ Game 1 (Olimar victory)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yauU3i8-Oug
Game 3 (Olimar loss)

I played GnW for several years and am now switching to Olimar.
Due to Uni work it's been a bit hard because as you will probably notice there is heaps of tech I have not learnt.
Any and all critique appreciated and any information about the most important techs/strategies that I am missing.
Also I have no idea how to recover in some situations and I believe that is ultimately why I lost game 3.
 

Splice

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Hi everyone I have some better quality matches of my Olimar now
These videos are from BAM the Australian yearly Major
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7nvemUnk_A - vs a Metaknight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8evdmOe5jVk&list=UULa8p_6jxc68N30LIeIIztA&index=4 - vs a Diddy Kong
Game two I switch to Game and Watch

I have absolutely no idea what to do in the Diddy Kong MU whatsoever so I'm reading the MU thread now. Any other tidbits and flaws you can point out please go ahead. If you can note anything good and bad from the Metaknight games please let me know, although the set was mostly decided by player vs player knowledge and habits. I don't think he has sufficient experience in executing the Oli vs MK MU either but hopefully you can still give me tips :3
 
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