Trail of Destruction - Stage Viability Discussion Thread

[Bahamut777]

Trail of Destruction
Ganondorf Stage Viability and Counterpicking Discussion Thread

Hello once again, fellow Evil Lords. Time to take a new step towards Ganon's overtake of Brawl matches. I don't remember this being done before, so we'll be the first ones to do so.
Our goal in this thread is to discuss how well Ganon does in every stage. What are his options? What can/can't he do? How the hazzards help/nerfs him? Against who X stage should be counterpicked? Against who should we ban that stage? And other matters that can (and hopefully will) help Ganon in his quest for victory.
Discussions will be helded here, in this thread, and will close only when we get an agreement about the stage situation. If things aren't getting anywhere, we'll move on to the next one on the list and then go back later. The first post will be updated with a summary of finished discussions and a link to the page where it begun.

Discussions and arguments should be focused on options that Ganon have/doesn't have, counterpicking viability, banning priority, against which characters he should/shouldn't c.pick/ban and a final veredict about the stage, either being (very) favorable or not.
We'll follow the MGL ruleset stage order and then move on to other stages that aren't on the list.

Ganondorf's Stage Match-up Chart

Spoiler

||| BATTLEFIELD |||

Good Stage​

Battlefield is probably Ganon's best stage among the Random stages.
OVERALL: Battlefield is just too good because of it's small blast zones, making it easy to kill enyone; it's low ground that helps our recovery; it's platforms that help our aerial game and approaching, mainly against linear spam characters like Falco, Peach and others; it's edge is not a risk for our recovery or edge game; and it's a random, making it possible to win at in the first match.

MAIN GROUND: It's main platform is neither too long nor too short, giving us just enough room to do as we please with our cancels, ground pressure game, Murder Rail mix ups, Chainchoking and even some good stuff mixing the small platforms and the main one. It, too, helps our defensive game by providing us firm ground to shield walk on and mix ups with the parkour cancel and SHAD down from the platforms.

PLATFORMS: Our best feature here. It helps our game a LOT! They give us enough air and ground room to pull out a wide range of aerial cancels and mix ups between them. Also, we can cancel SHNAir off the lower platforms and FHFAir out of the higher platform. It's just too good. Another thing we can take advantage from is our Murder Rail cancel between the lower platforms, giving us many options out of it, including edge guarding, NAir high gimp and FoG. But the best thing about the platforms is, by far, the option to avoid camping that is "unavoidable" on flat stages, like Diddy's, Peach's, Falco's, Luigi's, Mario's and a few others. It turns an inexistent approach into a constant murdering routine that your opponents can't do much about. It ALSO can help avoiding chaingrabs, grab releases and IC's infinites if you can use the stage properly

EDGE: The edge here is not risky and can provide us Flipman, Aerudo and other stuff that can help or even prevent EKs by edge guarding/hogging (if we time the Spite right). Also, it's pretty good to set up an edge guard on because we can safely recover and still finish up the murder at low grounds.

VEREDICT: Pretty good starter. Can be used as a c.pick sometimes.

BAN VS: Marth, MK, Snake, Wario, Lucario, Olimar, Kirby, Pikachu, Samus, T.Link, G&W, Ness.​

C.PICK AGAINST: Peach, Falco, Dedede, ICs, ROB, DK, Diddy, Pit, Ike, Lucas, Wolf, Yoshi.​

Discussion finished on 06/30. Starts and ends at the first page. Some info regarding C.picking and Banning is missing/incertain.

||| FINAL DESTINATION |||

Neutral Stage/Slightly Bad Stage​

Discussion finished on 08/01. Starts at page 2 and ends at page 3. Summary coming up soon. Info regarding C.picking and Banning is missing/incertain.

||| SMASHVILLE |||

Discussing...
​

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Battlefield IMO is the best starter stage for Ganon. The platforms help him much more than other heavies. Ganon can fall through the platforms using nair and bair very well, and if you're very good at the timing you can even fair before you land.

Battlefield also has an unusual camera, it's higher up than on the other stages. This can benefit Ganon as you can trick opponents into thinking you can't recover as low as that while it is only just a trick on the camera angle. You can wait a little longer than your opponent thinks can edgehog you in a time-window of his recovery. Sometimes you can get a sexy stage spike.

This might just be me but I find it easier to Flipman onto battlefield easier than on other stages like Smashville.

 

[seaDORF]

I personally like battlefield for ganon. As long as you know how to utilize the platforms and control the bottom part of the stage, you're in good stead for victory. When i say utilize the platforms, i just mean U-airing, using aerial gerudo's etc when your opponent is above you. The platforms kinda serve as a barrier.

Advantages:
- Small enough stage to prevent your opponent from effectively camping you.
- Platforms give you more approach options
- Decent counterpick for ground-dominating characters (snake, olimar etc) as you can dominate them in the air through the use of platforms. Makes it harder for them to recover from the air.
- A nice neutral stage that doesn't negatively affect ganon as much as some of the other neutrals.

Disadvantages:
- Ganon's height means his head pokes through the platforms meaning you're susceptible to some characters D-airs through the platforms and snake's mines/grenades.
- Platforms can also work negatively in your favour if your opponent is dominating centre stage. Confines you to using the platforms and therefore have more chance of being juggled/comboed.
- As with many stages, the size of battlefield's off-stage area impairs ganondorf's recovery and makes him vulnerable to getting gimped.

 

[Bahamut777]

I think Battlefield is a very good started for Ganon. He can use his aerials more freely here, move around better and even cancel FAir at the higher platform. Also, wizkick cancles here helps a lot.

It also helps prevent linear camping such as falco's, samus' and luigi's. But it makes difficult to avoid Snake's 'nade, c4 and claymore mix ups, since he gets more ground to work on. same applies to olimar: since he's a ground character, having platforms helps his ground game reach higher grounds.

it's also good for preventing chain grabbing if you focus your game on the platforms.

I think it's only good against all round characters like lucario, dedede, falco, fox, wolf and others.
bad choice against air dominant characters like wario, marth, ness and pika.

 

[Dumbfire]

One qeustion there, when you face a Samus, do you want to go to Battlefield? Its also Samus her best neutral, but the problem would probably be bigger on the other camper happyier neutrals.

 

[ItemfinderDeluxe]

One thing with Snake on BF is that if he plants a mine (D-Smash) on a platform, Ganondorf can walk underneath it without triggering the mine. He can't run though, since his running hitbox is taller then is walking hitbox. You can see it on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0gY8qvvGKQ&feature=related at 0:54.

Also, BF is the best place to put U-Smash to use as a pressure tool for people on platforms. Knock them up there and smash at them. If they shield it, it's shield damage and frames on block. If they shield it and fall off you can buffer an F-Tilt of D-Tilt for damage, a Gerudo if they roll away, a D-Air if they roll toawrds you, or a Salmon Smash if you bait them into buffering a get-up attack. Any way it goes is a good situation for Ganon.

About Samus, I'd rather face her on FD then BF. Either stage for Samus has little bearing on her ranged game, consisting of double missiles and z-air, but at least FD gives me more room to try and block/avoid her aerial chips (F-Air and N-Air) when I get close... when it does help.

 

[Vermanubis]

Another awesome one, Bahamut. Also, this would be the perfect thread to put this chart in that I made a long time ago, but it never really got any effort/thought put into it and kinda died. It's TOTALLY incomplete, and considering it was made 5 months ago, it has a TON of inaccurate info, but I think it could be a major boon to Ganon mains:

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8932/ganonstagechart.png

 

[Vermanubis]

As for Battlefield, I personally think it's Ganon's best starter, and best stage in general, with few exceptions against certain characters, such as Game & Watch, Wario and Meta Knight.

The best thing about Battlefield is that it doubles the pressure already put on opponents when they're above Ganon. The platforms are wide enough for Ganon's uair/nair to encompass it all, and small enough to easily push them off, making for a good follow-up. Without the ability to freely use the airspace around Ganondorf, he controls the air with his nair and uair. I can't stress how awesome the cramped platforms make it. The symmetry of the platforms also makes a bunch of cool and useful wizkick tricks possible.

Wizkick > any SH aerial
Wizkick > aerudo
Flight of Ganon (although the wizkick method I personally believe to be next to useless)

Just tons of ways to catch your opponent by surprise. But it does have its slight disadvantages, too. I'll list them along with the advantages:

Advantages:

-Aerial pressuring reduces the opponent's options and keeps them on their toes.
-Wizkick shenanigans from platforms give you extra height for attacks against a recovering opponent.
-All of Ganon's aerials are good for platform dropping.
-Great d-throw follow ups if they land on a platform.
-FH nairs and SH bairs make it exceedingly difficult to approach Ganon for aerially-oriented characters.

Disadvantages:

-Isn't as free to create uair/nair walls .
-More susceptible to dynamic camping (R.O.B.'s gyro+laser, Link, Toon Link, etc.)
-Susceptible to high-priority, multi-hit aerials/moves from above (G&W's aerials, Zelda's Usmash.

Though I can't list every last one of the peopel you should take here, I can list the ones that take precedence.

Counterpick: (primarily, but not limited to, characters who can't deal with pressure well)

-Diddy Kong
-Donkey Kong
-Pikachu
-Falco
-Sonic
-Jigglypuff

Don't take there: (Primarily characters that Ganon relies on walls and baits to enter, or who can block off approaches)

-Peach
-Wario
-Bowser
-Zelda
-Toon Link

I give it an 8.5/10. It lacks gimmicks, but it's just generally amazing for its platform pressure.

 

[seaDORF]

excellent post verm! Anyone have anything else to say? I agree that it's our best neutral.

 

[Conspiricy]

BF is the tipman's best friend. We get a massive increase in the zone we could do it in, allowing us to use it on chars who recover high.

It usefulness against specific chars can vary massively though, but people have already brought that up.

 

[Divilenta]

This is one of Ganon's best neutrals, if not the best. Platforms are an amazing way to improve Ganon's mobility and to avoid camping. Also @ItemfinderDeluxe's link, is it just me or did they show that a full hop nair can hit people on the top platform?

 

[ItemfinderDeluxe]

At 3:00, Yes, that was a Full hop N-Nair with second hit, and you get enough space to 2nd jump for another N-Air. It at least gives Ganon room to pressure the top platform, but N-Air's hitbox is very small at the tip, so it only cuts through a small part of the stage (in that video you see the tip of Ganon's foot go through the platform).

Mind you, I can't seem to get down those techs from 1:37 - 2:10 in that video, but that's another story.

How does this stage fare for Ganon against MK, Shiek, and IC's. Considering Metaknight is No. 1 and the other two are the impossible matchups, does BF help in any way with Ganon? I feel that hiding on the platforms does help against the IC's, but only because you can avoid the CG's there, and if you're lucky you can bait them into jumping after you and you drop down quickly beneath them to attack - IC's hold D-Air as their worst move, and being below them is the only weakness Ganon can exploit. I'm not sure about Shiek and MK though...

 

[seaDORF]

MK --> Ok. Not really a cp though. Doesn't really benefit us but it's not highly advantageous for mk either. Platforms are your best friend in this particular match-up on this level. I use the platforms to bait the mk in the air, slip through them and retaliate with an u-air, n-air or u-smash. Mk ***** us in the air so you don't want to stay on top of the platforms for too long. Try and stay grounded and bait him. One thing i might try occassionally against mk on this level is an aerial wizard kick. Most mk's take advantage of you being vulnerable in the air and will usually chase you so it's not a bad option if you use it every now and then because they won't anticipate it.

IC's --> Probably one of our best neutrals against Ice Climbers. Ideally, you want to take them to Rainbow Cruise or Norfair though, but yeh spot on, the platforms do provide relief from chain-grabs. Approaching from the platforms when they're below you isn't the greatest idea though as they can U-air you all day. However, i barely have match-up experience against IC's so i'm not entirely sure of how much priority their U-airs have over our attacks.

Sheik --> I think there's 1 sheik player in Australia who lives on the other side of the continent so I have barely played him. I wouldn't know how viable battlefield is against sheik. Sorry. Anyone care to add?

 

[TheMike]

Counterpick ROB to Battlefield. This is Ganondorf's best neutral stage against him. Side B can lead into U-x moves, racking up some good damage. Furthermore, it isn't a good stage for ROB. The platforms are close to one another, and he is pretty bad above them in most situations.

 

[Bahamut777]

There is no real advantage to Sheik, I believe. Ganon outranges and outprioritizes all her aerials and, if we can avoid the FTilt lock (and the platforms help us here), there is no problem at all. I think it can even be used as counterpick against her... Not slight bit of MU experience against Sheik. They are extinct here in Brazil.

Well, if there is no more to say, shall we go to the next one?

@Verm: I remembered that chart. I was planing on do a new one once we finish things around here.

 

[Bahamut777]

Let's move to FINAL DESTINATION.

I'll work on the summary and then update the first post as soon as I get home.

 

[Exalted]

It's too **** big.
Hence, why it really should be your Final Destination.

 

[Bahamut777]

Altho' it's very big and has almost no room for our Wizkick/Aerials and other shanenigans, I think this can be a neutral (maybe pending to disadvantage) stage. The thing that upsets me the most is that edge...
Man... What Sakurai smoke up to make that thing?

 

[Exalted]

That ledge is only dangerous if you're stupid enough to wedge yourself in there.

 

[Dumbfire]

Its never completely unavoideble. Trying to keep center stage is probably the best to avoid early gimps. I only really use this unless against Mk I think.. And MK should ban it, but the Mk is like LOL GANON and has no ban or just lets me choose a stage.. Furthermore Smashville, BF, or even Yoshi's do better. We have Lylat as a neutral so I tend to keep away from Lylat and FD.

 

[Exalted]

Frigate Orpheon all the way.
My favourite stage, nubs.

 

[Tonsana]

Pick FD against MK. Ban against anyone who can camp somewhat well.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Pick FD against MK.

This. MK's hate FD and we get Gerudo stuff happening here.

 

[ItemfinderDeluxe]

Despite MK shennanigans I hate FD the most of the 4 common starters. The blast lines are too far to get effective KO's - most of the time I need another 25-30% on top of the standard values to KO someone on the edges. As an example, Mario gets U-Smashed off the top of Battlefield at 100%, but at 130% on FD (thevalues may actually be different, the the effect is the same). The only thing I like is the low bottom line, so if somehow I get a spike I can KO most of the cast at 30-40%.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Despite MK shennanigans I hate FD the most of the 4 common starters. The blast lines are too far to get effective KO's - most of the time I need another 25-30% on top of the standard values to KO someone on the edges. As an example, Mario gets U-Smashed off the top of Battlefield at 100%, but at 130% on FD (thevalues may actually be different, the the effect is the same). The only thing I like is the low bottom line, so if somehow I get a spike I can KO most of the cast at 30-40%.

Don't forget character with worse recoveries than ours. Hilarious to spike Yoshi there. Yoshi's like "just try to stop my jump I got armor" and Ganon's like "okay I spike you" and Yoshi like "o no I r ded".

But really, I wouldn't take Yoshi there. He has his ****able grab release across the stage which I think might combo into an Fair at the end. Though there really aren't many good Yoshis from what I've seen.

Hrrmmm... Maybe I'll go pick up Yoshi. Ganon needs a mount.
Pffft lol no.

 

[Bahamut777]

Good thing on FD is that we can chain choke like there's no tomorrow. :D
BTW: is Flipman possible on FD?

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Why yes, yes it is.

 

[Bahamut777]

Updated the first post with the BF summary. Please, correct me or suggest any changes if you want so.

 

[SLASHinator]

Soooo that's it on FD?
I kinda dislike the stage if only for the background and blue-ness on account of having fought there too much. It's a cool stage vs chars that abuse platforms, like MK, GnW and Wario, though it's hardly useable as a cp (cause those chars will ban/strike FD). There's not a lot to say for banning the stage in general except for heavy campers (Falco, TL), I'd say it's an ok choice to start on. No-one but noobs and Falcos will cp FD and though we like platforms, imo it's not too bad for Ganon.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh, don't forget we take Mario there.

 

[SLASHinator]

...Why would you do that? So you can catch the most fireballs before getting uair chained to the edge and Cape-guarded off the stage?

Imo BF is better vs Mario, it gives you a chance to evade his fireballs and forces Mario to approach. Just standing on a platform can do this.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

...Why would you do that? So you can catch the most fireballs before getting uair chained to the edge and Cape-guarded off the stage?

Imo BF is better vs Mario, it gives you a chance to evade his fireballs and forces Mario to approach. Just standing on a platform can do this.

I don't like taking Mario to BF. He excels around platforms.Utilt us so we hit a platform and then Uair chain us.

I just powershield the fireballs and wait on the approach, since shieldgrab doesn't afraid of anything. Except Mario's better grab range.

 

[Bahamut777]

So I think we can wrap up FD.

Now it's Smashville time!

 

[Dumbfire]

I like it.
People tend to end up here when striking a lot, its not that big so you can avoid camping better, no stupid ledges, and a platform for Uair abuse to help recovering.
Favorite next to BF. Can't really say more.

 

[Bahamut777]

I like SV better than BF.
Here I can get more room to work around with Gerudo and follow ups, thing that the platforms on BF may end up screwing sometimes.
Also we can "trap" people inside the platform with UAir walling.
It's only problem is that it's way too neutral for us to c.pick on it... =\

 

[Vermanubis]

Bump.

I added in the stage match-up chart I made ages ago. The info on it is disturbingly inaccurate though, so we need to get moving so we can amend it in short order.

 

[Claire Diviner]

So what stage shall we discuss next? Or do people go over a stage at random? Do we do starters first, then work our way to counterpicks?

 

[Vermanubis]

I think we'll move on from starters to CPs, to CP/Banned (aka MLG stages lulz).

Right now I think Smashville's a good place to start. We've got BF and FD covered in the OP.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Smashville, is kind of like a smaller Final Destination. The difference being a moving platform, which is great for Ganon's aerial pressure, and it also lacks the stage lips of Final D that can ruin Ganondorf's recovery. The moving platform, when in the right position can also help Dorf a lot: If he's getting gimped, and assuming he isn't too low, he can Up B onto the moving platform. If the opponent is on the platform and the platform is near the side of the stage, it can be an easy kill for Dorf (though smart players tend to not have any business on the platform during that time.

MU-wise, it helps him deal with Samus a little better - though not by a whole lot - thanks to the platform allowing access to a better approach. Not just Samus, but other projectile spammers. Snake, however, is a different story, as he can set deadly traps on the stage and on the platform.

Another high point, is that the stage is pretty small, meaning projectile spammers will have to fight up close more often than they usually do on Final D., Samus, being not a very good melee fighter. There are a surprising number of MUs Ganon can deal with here, thanks to the size, allowing close combat, and the platform allowing a good amount of pressure (maybe not as much as Battlefield allows, but still good).

Characters to Counterpick, in my opinion include:
- Diddy Kong
- R.O.B.
- Link
- Ike
- Peach
- Sonic

Characters to beware of include:
- Meta Knight
- Snake
- Ice Climbers
- Wario
- King Dedede
- Olimar
- Zero Suit Samus

The second set of characters can use the platform for as much pressure as Dorf can, and the small size means Ice Climbers has an easier time grabbing us and doing nasty, terrible, non-consentual things against our will.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah, the platform may seem like an adjunct, situational gimmick, but it has so many uses. For one, it does sometimes assist in recovering. Two, if you can manage to grab MK on the platform while facing the direction it's moving, you can grab release Fsmash/Wizkick him (same with Earthbound kids). As far as aerial pressure goes, Ganon is amazing at pressuring people on the platform when it's offstage. That really messes with 'em.

SV is bar-none the most neutral stage Ganon can find. It's not long enough where exclusively camping is a viable option, the platform really helps as a sanctuary from projectiles and helps cool off ground control pressure. SV is the one place I usually take MK, simply because there's nothing that helps MK a lot here, but that platform gimmick can really save your ***.

My personal suggestion of CPs would:

-Meta Knight
-Lucas
-Ness
-Anyone who can be air-released by Ganon

There's no one I wouldn't take here, per se. There are characters who'd be better suited for a CP that appeals more to Ganon and less to them, but it doesn't really hurt to take anyone to SV. If you're doubting your ability to CP, just go to SV.