Tournament legal Smash Ultimate Stage list

[Skynerd]

This is a kinda lengthy one so get ready. I've compiled a list of stages that I think will be viable and alternate for each PR season when Ultimate hits. Keep in mind, i've tried to keep balance so that there is semi-uniformity and less jank possible.

(SIDE NOTE!) (Any stage that HAS hazards implies that any hazards not including stage transformations will not be a part of the stage listed basically meaning, hazards are OFF)

Also PR seasons would shift as the seasons do Ex: Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall as is the basic norm between competitive communities.
6 stages per season 4 standard and 2 counterpicks

All comments welcome for HEALTHY debate

PR season 1
Standard stages

Final Destination
Fountain of dreams(melee)
Magicant
Smashville

Counter Picks
Kongo Jungle (melee)
Pokemon Stadium 1 (melee)

PR season 2
Standard Stages

Town and City
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Battlefield

Counter picks
Duck hunt
Frigate Orpheon

PR Season 3
Standard Stages

Yoshi's story (Melee)
Brinstar Depths
Lylat Cruise (assuming it's not jank)
Great Bay

Counter Stages
Pictochat 2/Delfino Plaza
Wily Castle

PR Season 4
Standard Stages

Tortimer Island
Pokemon Stadium 2
Jungle Japes
Skyworld

Counter picks
Super Happy Tree
Prism Tower/Kalos Pokemon League

 

[Fell God]

I like the idea, but most people are against having more than like 3 legal stages. And also probably no one would go for Tortimer Island or Skyworld. Or Great Bay.

 

[hposter]

now i'm no competitive smash expert but i don't understand why they always stick with "legal stages" when they can go with the new battlefield mode for stages in ultimate

 

[Skynerd]

I like the idea, but most people are against having more than like 3 legal stages. And also probably no one would go for Tortimer Island or Skyworld. Or Great Bay.

I can respect that. What stages would you replace those with/change around on the list?

now i'm no competitive smash expert but i don't understand why they always stick with "legal stages" when they can go with the new battlefield mode for stages in ultimate

It offers diversity. I'm not saying you can't do the all battefield thing, but having different platforms, and transitions adds a different competitive aspect. You'll have to act differently depending on the situation.

 

[Fell God]

I can respect that. What stages would you replace those with/change around on the list?

Ahhh, I honestly can't remember all the stages right now, but I think New Donk shows promise, maybe even Dracula's castle hazardless, depending on how it works. And Delfino. Honestly though I want as many legal stages as possible.

 

[hposter]

It offers diversity. I'm not saying you can't do the all battefield thing, but having different platforms, and transitions adds a different competitive aspect. You'll have to act differently depending on the situation.

i figured, but c'mon
i don't believe there's anyone out there who hasn't gotten tired of seeing smashville/town and city for the one millionth time
(i legit can't tell smashville and town and city apart from each other)

 

[Fell God]

i figured, but c'mon
i don't believe there's anyone out there who hasn't gotten tired of seeing smashville/town and city for the one millionth time
(i legit can't tell smashville and town and city apart from each other)

That's exactly why some of us are pushing for a more liberal list. With a seasonal rotation in addition to that, we'd see less of the dreadfully dull AC stages and more unique picks.

 

[Skynerd]

That's exactly why some of us are pushing for a more liberal list. With a seasonal rotation in addition to that, we'd see less of the dreadfully dull AC stages and more unique picks.

Yeah, basically the reason for the list. Keeps the game feeling crispy and gives you the opportunity to practice not only the 1st seasons list but ALL the seasons stage list in friendlies. Now competitive and non competitive friendlies can get even better.

 

[osby]

One question: Why competitive players keep begging for more tournament legal stages if they can't handle more then three at once?

 

[DJ3DS]

One question: Why competitive players keep begging for more tournament legal stages if they can't handle more then three at once?

There's a split in views.

One set of people feel that the added number of stages allows for even stricter banning than before, on the impression that they can ban "janky" stages such as TC (no, I'm not joking).

The other half are tired of the current stage list and want to see people explore the full number of options Sakurai is giving us.

 

[Skynerd]

Well hopefully this thread gives more opinions and thoughts on the subject. I'd really like to see what the whole community has to say about it.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I like the idea, but most people are against having more than like 3 legal stages. And also probably no one would go for Tortimer Island or Skyworld. Or Great Bay.

...I’d go for Skyworld...

 

[dav3yb]

How long are the seasons going to last?

What incentive do i have as a TO to run these lists?

Why have starter/counterpick at all? If a stage is good enough for tournaments at all why not always make it legal?

Who will decide on the next set of stages for any following seasons, and why do you feel the ones you picked are any good at all?

Sorry, but these things have been discussed to death at this point in a couple threads already. Seasons might work fine for a local scene, but I don't ever see it happening at anything major.

 

[DaUsername]

seasons

seasonal rotation

Player: "I want to play on FD."
TOs: "Sorry, you can't, that stage isn't legal until Spring."

now i'm no competitive smash expert but i don't understand why they always stick with "legal stages" when they can go with the new battlefield mode for stages in ultimate

Player: "With 103 stages and the addition of a stage hazard switch, there will be more legal stages than ever!"
TOs: "No there won't, we'll just make Battlefield the only legal stage instead."

This is why these ideas are bad.

 

[Fell God]

Player: "I want to play on FD."
TOs: "Sorry, you can't, that stage isn't legal until Spring."


Player: "With 103 stages and the addition of a stage hazard switch, there will be more legal stages than ever!"
TOs: "No there won't, we'll just make Battlefield the only legal stage instead."

This is why these ideas are bad.

There are probably some alternatives, I considered a BF and FD type stage being in every season. Honestly I don't want there to have to be a seasonal rotation but people think they won't be able to remember having more than like 5 legal stages at a time and complain about the legal list being "too big". It's a strange dilemma.

 

[Galgatha]

Why even have seasons in the first place? FLiPS looks promising, and leaves every legal stage open. Not locked behind a specific season.

 

[LucR]

This is a kinda lengthy one so get ready. I've compiled a list of stages that I think will be viable and alternate for each PR season when Ultimate hits. Keep in mind, i've tried to keep balance so that there is semi-uniformity and less jank possible.

(SIDE NOTE!) (Any stage that HAS hazards implies that any hazards not including stage transformations will not be a part of the stage listed basically meaning, hazards are OFF)

Also PR seasons would shift as the seasons do Ex: Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall as is the basic norm between competitive communities.
6 stages per season 4 standard and 2 counterpicks

All comments welcome for HEALTHY debate

PR season 1
Standard stages

Final Destination
Fountain of dreams(melee)
Magicant
Smashville

Counter Picks
Kongo Jungle (melee)
Pokemon Stadium 1 (melee)

PR season 2
Standard Stages

Town and City
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Battlefield

Counter picks
Duck hunt
Frigate Orpheon

PR Season 3
Standard Stages

Yoshi's story (Melee)
Brinstar Depths
Lylat Cruise (assuming it's not jank)
Great Bay

Counter Stages
Pictochat 2/Delfino Plaza
Wily Castle

PR Season 4
Standard Stages

Tortimer Island
Pokemon Stadium 2
Jungle Japes
Skyworld

Counter picks
Super Happy Tree
Prism Tower/Kalos Pokemon League

I just hope we don't have another decade of smashville

 

[j.method()]

What if legal stages are legal all year?
Players can play where they want.

 

[Thatonehelper]

Izaw Smash - stages with hazards off

 

[QrowinSP]

Some issues.

1. Stage striking is unbalanced unless the number of stages being struck are 1+4n. So 5, 9, 13, etc..

2. Counterpick stages don't make sense as a concept. If a stage is good enough to hold the tournament decider on, it's good enough to hold game one on. The only reason to include a counterpick stage list is to include 1-3 additional stages because they wouldn't fit on the strike list. Additionally, people often decide that the more different from FD/BF a stage is, the more it's qualified to be a counterpick, when I'd argue the counterpicks should consist of stages that are somewhat redundant to the ones on the strike list, while the strike list should have as much variety as possible to keep things fair.

 

[Skynerd]

Some issues.

Yeah, that's true. So what stages would you make per season throughout the year? I mean, we've seen some gameplay of characters on stages with hazards off. What stages would you use for a list?

 

[QrowinSP]

My rule for making the next list, and understand that I am far from the best person to do this, is to add as many uncontroversial stages as possible (all with hazards off for simplicity) without any retreads on platform layouts. More interesting stages will be kept to a minimum because, as much as I like them, they tend to be more controversial. I'd aim for 13 stages, since that's the upper limit of what we could expect people to strike I feel (though even that may be too high in practice if people are lazy about game knowledge, which they are).

BF
FD
Brinstar
PS1
WarioWare
Frigate Orpeon
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Lylat
Arena Ferox
Town and City

For the remaining 3, I'd recommend
Skyloft (Weird bottom)
Castle Siege (Slope in the middle)
New Super Mario Bros U (Big but platform layout makes doesn't make circle camping viable)

 

[jwillenn]

I just came across this
https://docs.google.com/presentatio...false&delayms=3000#slide=id.g47be8aae2c_0_152

I liked izaw's video on it also. Whatever the 10-15 "unique platform layouts" (mostly with hazards off) he came up with, I'd say that's already cool beans with Ultimate exceeding what was optional for the previous games at tournaments in that regard. Then there's the awesome background and music variety. Full use of Omega and Battlefield forms is the big game changer, perhaps far more so for spectators than the players. Nevertheless, spectators are also very important.

This game doesn't have a "My Stages" feature, does it? If not, that's unfortunate. They could just dump everything that's legal into My Stages. This is what gets displayed at Stage Select screen! Hit RANDOM SELECT. That is your fair first match pick.
Otherwise, if I were running a tournament, I'd have several bags filled with 10-20 mini numbered popsicle sticks or something hard but cheap that I can easily mark numbers on and keep up with for reusing. Fixed at tables for players to reference would be laminated cards (and several versions with other languages in mind) that state what stages are legal. For example. 1. Any Omega. 2. Any Battlefield. 3. Fountain of Dreams [Hazards On/Off], 4. Lylat Cruise [Hazards Off]... 20. Town & City [Hazards Off]. The mod or group official steps to players, shakes his bag or box of sticks, pulls a number, writes the number on the little dry erase board at the table, and moves on. It is understood that losers pick from that point on.

Yeah, it's a bit different from the norm, but what the fudge...

 

[Thatonehelper]

This game doesn't have a "My Stages" feature, does it? If not, that's unfortunate. They could just dump everything that's legal into My Stages. This is what gets displayed at Stage Select screen! Hit RANDOM SELECT. That is your fair first match pick.

Otherwise, if I were running a tournament, I'd have several bags filled with 10-20 mini numbered popsicle sticks or something hard but cheap that I can easily mark numbers on and keep up with for reusing. Fixed at tables for players to reference would be laminated cards (and several versions with other languages in mind) that state what stages are legal. For example. 1. Any Omega. 2. Any Battlefield. 3. Fountain of Dreams [Hazards On/Off], 4. Lylat Cruise [Hazards Off]... 20. Town & City [Hazards Off]. The mod or group official steps to players, shakes his bag or box of sticks, pulls a number, writes the number on the little dry erase board at the table, and moves on. It is understood that losers pick from that point on.

Yeah, it's a bit different from the norm, but what the fudge...

At the very least, random stage select is expected to make a return. I am not too sure on the QOL changes.

Your popsickle stick / cards solution is hit or miss. That takes lots of work and materials can be easily destroyed or misplaced at larger events. Not to mention that it is somewhat clunky if it is not digital.

Rulesets need to be clearly defined and easily accessible. Rules should be as simple as possible and easy to understand.

 

[Manonymous]

I have a question :

"We don't want too many stages in competitive, it will be hard to remember the caracteristics of those stages, like blastzone, mouvement plateform, etc ..."
Okay, but it doesn't seem to be a problem with fighters being 74 in this game. I would even say, learning caracteristics of a stage is less long than for a character.

 

[jwillenn]

Your popsickle stick / cards solution is hit or miss. That takes lots of work and materials can be easily destroyed or misplaced at larger events. Not to mention that it is somewhat clunky if it is not digital.

Rulesets need to be clearly defined and easily accessible. Rules should be as simple as possible and easy to understand.

I don't see where you're getting "lots of work" from or easily destroyed/misplaced materials.

Let's pretend I am one of moderators in charge of drawing the first stage. I have a small bag (maybe even with a shoulder strap) of about 15 sticks. There are spare sets elsewhere.

"Thaton and Manon to Ultimate Table 3, please! Thaton and Man..."
I shake my bag, pull and show players the stick I drew (#3 - Fountain of Dreams - Hazards On)
"First stage is Fountain of Dreams - Hazards On!"
I write #3 on the "first stage drawing" dry erase board and move on. From there, players who didn't understand what was communicated verbally and in writing (stick) can reference the cards that are chained to the tables at arms length from where players would sit at the play area. For example. French player sees #3 on card and can read Fountain of Dreams - Hazards On in French.
For following matches of their set, loser picks from the legal stages listed.

What's hard work or difficult to understand?

Basically, this is shifting from players pick first to a mod picks by means of a physical random select. Again, would prefer in-game random select but I don't think we'll be able to apply that to a reduced pool of stages ("My Stages") of any combination of types.

Now if THAT is worse than the current stage striking process, then so be it. Drop this now! As a moderator, I'm not going to lose the sticks I am responsible for. Stick is going to go right back in the bag and I'll repeat the process for other players I am to deal with.

 

[Metal-Ace]

The more I think about it, the more I'm ok with the idea of a stage rotation system to try to appease both party that want more stages, but also the party that wants a reasonable amount of stages so that stage strikes/counter picks doesn't take too long.

The way I would do it however is we keep the starter stages as consistent as possible. Stages like FD (along with omegas) and Smashvile should stay evergreen cause of how neutral or close to it they are. Stages that are counters on the other hand, would rotate out, say every 2-3 months, but if a stage is well received as a counter, it would have the potential to stay evergreen or at the very least not rotate as much. Obviously, the key to keeping the counter stages consistent with each rotation is to make sure that the stages in question doesn't complete screws over someone on the roster, but as time passes and we learn more from playing and gather more data on which stages favors what characters, I it could work.

Is it perfect, I personally wouldn't say it's a perfect solution, but I'm just dropping ideas.