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Tournament Bans

Sizzle

I paint controllers
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
1,466
Location
Hirosaki, Japan / San Diego State
I have been playing Melee competitively since 2005 and this is the first time I've encountered the situation that unfolded yesterday. I have been under the impression that bans in a 2/3 set are for the WHOLE set. I'll explain the situation.

I play Fox and was playing a Marth. Marth won game 1 on Battlefield and banned FD (to my surprise). I won game 2 on Stadium and banned Yoshi's. The Marth player then counterpicked FD, and I said FD is banned you can't pick it. He then said that bans are only for one game which I disagreed. I called the TO and explained that I would have banned FD if it wasn't already banned. He disagreed and said in the rules it should be interpreted in my opponents favor and that he can go to the stage he banned. I disagreed, but played the set regardless since the TO explained it was his interpretation of the rule.

Code:
After each match:
1. Winner announces stage ban (except in best-of-5 sets)
2. Loser chooses counterpick stage
3. Winner chooses their character
4. Loser chooses their character
This is from the tournament thread, and is ambiguous to the situation at hand. There was no further explanation. Do bans last for the whole set?
 

Vegard

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 22, 2005
Messages
1,220
Location
Oslo, Norway
Ban lasts for next match not for whole set. /thread
How can you confidently claim this when this is clearly not the case --- SIGH. Bans apply for the whole set, unless the ruleset has some weird twist.

In response to the original post, I agree with the TO's decision. He could've banned PS, but didn't, so in the end you still benefited from his lousy ban. Really unsure how to handle it from that point, if he can pick another ban.
 

Quad-K

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
8
Location
Minnesota
Sounds like he read "Drastic Improvement". According to Umbreon:


"Understand that when you ban a stage, your opponent cannot pick it. You still can. Some TOs are shaky on this, so clear it with them in private prior to the event. If you ban a stage, your opponent will consider it banned and choose a different ban. This is brilliant because you can ban your own CP options to "protect" them later. You absolutely must win the first game to properly exploit this point.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
It's obvious that the intended rule was to ban the stage for the entire set. The fact that no rulesets specify this is just a loophole that allows Smash lawyers to dupe people.

Protip: my ruleset addresses this issue along with all of the other common ruleset issues
 

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
It's always been just for the match in every tournament that I've entered

game 2 I ban FD because my opponent went marth game 1, my opponent beats me with fox game 2 on stadium and is feelin himself decides to go fox for the rest of the set, game 3 i take him to fd because I'm good vs fox there. have gone through that many times

actually your scenario is the scenario I've never heard of before, someone arguing that the stage stays banned lol.
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
The only real confusion here was that Sizzle didn't know he could also spend his ban on that stage. Kevin, his opponent actually did something REALLY STUPID and banned his own stage thinking his ban protected it. Which it doesn't. You can still spend your ban on a banned stage, because the ban applies to your opponent.

Whether it's set or match in a 2 - 3 does not matter. There is no situation where you get more than 1 ban.

Ultimately I made the call to let Kevin decide if they would stay, because while both him and Sizzle didn't know the rules(Which is obvious, because of how Kevin was trying to use the ban), he was by the book in the right and knowing the rules of the competition is a competitive skill set, albeit a limited one.

I'm going to have paper rules by each station in the future to prevent this nonsense in the future.

This is why 3 - 5 doesn't have bans anymore.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
This is why 3 - 5 doesn't have bans anymore.
No it isn't. I remember the explanation in the official ruleset thread being that the MBR members thought playing on the hardest cps is something players should be able to handle considering how small the stage list has gotten. KirbyKaze specifically has mentioned how he likes the removal of bans because it takes a lot of the theory out of picking stages and instead makes players prove the theory through their gameplay.

I'm 90% sure that when players used to ban stages in bo5s, the ban lasted the whole set for both players.
 

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
It's always been just for the match in every tournament that I've entered

game 2 I ban FD because my opponent went marth game 1, my opponent beats me with fox game 2 on stadium and is feelin himself decides to go fox for the rest of the set, game 3 i take him to fd because I'm good vs fox there. have gone through that many times

actually your scenario is the scenario I've never heard of before, someone arguing that the stage stays banned lol.
So why did people keep posting after I typed this out and then went all like /thread?

Gosh you people love to repeat me. :)
 

Rarik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
206
Location
Boston
The problem with bans only applying to your opponent (same as only lasting 1 game in a Bo3) is that it's never specified anywhere. The Apex, Zenith, Evo, Big House, and 2012 MBR Recommended rule sets all simply state that the winner gets to ban a stage. Nothing else. It doesn't say that they ban only their opponent from picking that stage, it doesn't say the ban only lasts 1 game. It just says winner bans a stage. So, while there is a general consensus that the bans only last 1 game, this is not properly reflected in the rule sets. So, how is someone supposed to learn the proper rule of a ban only lasting 1 game, if none of the rule sets even imply that the ban only lasts for 1 game?

In other words, get your **** together TO's, your rule sets need some tweaking because right now a new player would look at those rules and think that bans last the entire set instead of just 1 game.
 

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
I suppose we need clarification on this...either way would be fine and wouldn't be very metagame changing.
 

Rarik

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
206
Location
Boston
Like I said, TO's should explicitly add it to their rule sets as right now it's rather ambiguous. Also, having to ask an older player to clarify the rules kinda defeats the purpose of having a rule set in the first place. The rule set is there to make sure everyone knows the rules and doesn't need to bother the TO or someone else about specifics.

Edit:

Being able to do this:
Umbreon said:
"Understand that when you ban a stage, your opponent cannot pick it. You still can. Some TOs are shaky on this, so clear it with them in private prior to the event. If you ban a stage, your opponent will consider it banned and choose a different ban. This is brilliant because you can ban your own CP options to "protect" them later. You absolutely must win the first game to properly exploit this point."
is incredibly silly since it can happen even if your opponent reads the rule set. I'm fine with it happening if your opponent is lazy enough to not read the rules or forgets the rules, but the rules shouldn't ever be ambiguous enough to be abused like that.
 

TKD

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
1,587
Location
Tijuana, México
Bans apply for 1 match. This is because the stage list is too small for so many stages to be banned at once: by the 3rd match, there could be a whopping total of 3 unavailable stages: one that was won on, the player's ban and the opponent's ban.

Also, it'd require a lot of strategy for stage selection, which is an artificial skill created by the ruleset that's not really part of the game itself.

I could be wrong but it makes the most sense.
 

Luma

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
1,642
Location
Berlin - Germany
every event i've been to always had the stage banned for the entire set

not sure if you guys played back then when we had a bigger stagelist where we also had bans in bo5/7, did you always ban a new stage before every match? i dont think so
 

Juggleguy

Smash Grimer
Premium
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,354
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
If a player bans a stage, that stage is banned for the entire set. You can't counterpick the stage you banned. Being able to do so would be a joke, and I'm shocked so many people are interpreting this incorrectly, including several well-known players in this thread.
 

HyugaRicdeau

Baller/Shot-caller
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,883
Location
Portland, OR
Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
Why is it a joke. Your information about your opponent and the set changes every game, and the rules for bans should reflect that.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
Location
Philadephia, PA
Bans have never been shiftable throughout a set afaik. I'm looking specifically back at BO5 sets where players ban a stage after their first loss. If bans only applied to one match, then those players would have the option of changing their ban after the second loss, which has never been part of the rule and has never come up or been used.

It is ultimately the decision of the TO on how bans should be applied. I have actually banned a stage in tournament and asked if I could use it myself later, with the TO saying that no, my ban applies to my own counterpick availability as well. This is the approach I agree with.

My opinion on the recommended ruleset is that a stage ban used by one player applies to the stage pool, which is independent of either player. That stage would be removed from the stages available for that set, not from one specific player.

These are the options I have that can be applied currently:

Option 1: Each player's stage bans are selected after their first match win. Banning a stage removes that stage from the stage pool for the entire set, for both players.

Option 2: Each player's stage bans are selected, and can be changed, after each match win. Banning a stage removes that stage from the stage pool for both players for the duration that the stage ban is placed on that stage. A player may not change their ban after a match loss.

Option 3: Each player's stage bans are selected after their first match win. Banning a stage removes that stage from the stage pool only for the opposing player. Both players can ban the same stage.

Option 4: Each player's stage bans are selected, and can be changed, after each match win. Banning a stage removes that stage from the stage pool only for the opposing player. Both players can ban the same stage.
 
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