Topic Queue and Suggestion

[Cactuar]

Suggest topics you would like to see discussed. There will be a similar suggestion thread in the Ember for publicly requested topics. Any MBR member may select a topic to use.

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Neutral Start
- Discuss the pros and cons of a "neutral start" for tournament matches. Currently, players can be severely disadvantaged in position due to a variety of reasons relating to starting positions of the different player slots.
Submitted By: Cactuar

 

[KishPrime]

So wait, we have to post a topic here before we post it for discussion?

 

[Cactuar]

General discussion topics can just go in the general discussion, this room is more for like... semi-formal debates that will be moved for public viewing and response later. Posting a topic suggestion just lets us set up the format for it so its "nice" for the readers.

 

[Skler]

Formal debate on making the neutral stage list FoD, Battlefield and DL64.

I want to see people in tuxedos for this.

 

[Cactuar]

Any volunteers? I also suggest you directly ask other MBR members you would like to see in the debate to participate.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I would prefer YS over FoD simply because it is more static. I remember arguing about whether FoD or PS should be the stage left out of the strike in tournament discussion a while back, and in the end the reason PS got the ****tier end of the deal was because the randomness was more disruptive.

... but i really suppose this isn't the place to be debating this XD

 

[Skler]

People just hate FoD for no reason though, I honestly don't think the "FoD sucks" arguments have any basis in actual logic.

That is one volunteer though!

 

[Divinokage]

The moving platforms enables certain chars like Fox or Falco.. Peach, Sheik.. to do insane combos and enables them to camp more effectively. And it weakens the platform game for like Falcon/Ganon. It kinda sucks for these chars.. because they have rely on approaching and counter-attacking but it's really hard to do that on FoD.

On YS, all the characters above is a lot more even I find. They all have pretty much equal movement ability and Sheik gets weaker there too.

 

[Skler]

Why are Fox and Falco more enabled than Falcon/Ganon? Everyone has the same options of waveland, aerial and whatever the crap. Is it because they have faster aerials? I don't think a stage should be struck because Falcon and Ganon aren't good on it. Especially when there's one strike and they're perfectly fine on the other stages.

 

[Divinokage]

Because they have the ability to camp right under the platform where they are 100% safe and can punish effectively with the platforms. It's not really because they have faster aerials, it's because Ganon/Falcon have no room to move around and it's really difficult to approach because of the moving platforms.. pretty sure it's true for more than these 2. I mean when it becomes a battle who out-prioritizes who the most, the spacies definitely have a much better advantage too. I'm just saying YS > FoD in terms of general balance. I mean personally I don't mind FoD at all except vs Fox.

 

[Zankoku]

For the record, Yoshi's Story is my favorite stage and I play Peach and Sheik.

 

[Skler]

Yoshi's story is objectively worse for balance.

Tiny blast zones.
Randall.
Fly guys.
Falco shine death combo!?
Marth.

The platforms on FoD even go away if you're scared of them. It can't be worse for balance!

 

[Divinokage]

Yoshi's story is objectively worse for balance.

Tiny blast zones.
Randall.
Fly guys.
Falco shine death combo!?
Marth.

The platforms on FoD even go away if you're scared of them. It can't be worse for balance!

Lol really? Randall and Fly guys are immediately eliminated from the argument because it affects both opponents equally... both opponents can use them to their advantage. The blast zones should be small since its a small stage, for 3 stage balance you do need one small stage, one medium and one large stage. FoD doesn't really qualify as a small stage that way, only the stage itself is small. But then again just because Marth can kill pretty fast on YS, he can just as well do that on FoD.. why not? It's the same gimps. And are you seriously arguing about Falco's shine kills?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ive seen falco shine people off the top on battlefield and fod and even stadium. All he has to do is rack up some percent (shine->dair rinse repeat), hit them up towards the top platform, shine->waveland then shine (and shine 1 more time if necessary, or just upb to seal the deal)

 

[Skler]

Fly guys do not affect both opponents equally. Try using projectiles when the fly guys show up. They also do no affect both players equally if one is being hit either. Try comboing while the fly guys come through, your opponent can fly guy DI (this is hilarious against CGers. but it's still stupid) AND you're stuck in hitlag.

Randall is just bad and there is no argument that Randall isn't a detriment to competitive play. You can do some things based on randall knowledge, but he's not a boon to the stage at all.

The Falco shine death combo is just an example of "wtf" that Yoshi's story involves. Marth is an example of "stage changes matchups significantly."

FoD has...two platforms that move up/down slowly and telegraph their movement.

 

[Divinokage]

Fly guys do not affect both opponents equally. Try using projectiles when the fly guys show up. They also do no affect both players equally if one is being hit either. Try comboing while the fly guys come through, your opponent can fly guy DI (this is hilarious against CGers. but it's still stupid) AND you're stuck in hitlag.

Randall is just bad and there is no argument that Randall isn't a detriment to competitive play. You can do some things based on randall knowledge, but he's not a boon to the stage at all.

The Falco shine death combo is just an example of "wtf" that Yoshi's story involves. Marth is an example of "stage changes matchups significantly."

FoD has...two platforms that move up/down slowly and telegraph their movement.

Would you really try to use a projectile when the fly guys are there? I mean I don't think Fox and Falco use lasers on the fly guys to purposely kill them either?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fly guys only add hitlag during combos. The only time they alter DI is after a throw when the person hit counts as a projectile themselves.

You assert that randall is bad yet have no support for it.

The stage doesn't really effect marth's matchups as much as the character. His character style is one that zones efficiently and smaller stages will obviously favor him. Other zoning characters do well on YS too, like ganondorf. Marth also has a lot of stuff he can do on FoD in terms of covering space and drastically limiting options as well as getting free platform tippers.

FoD has two platforms that move up and down randomly without warning*

 

[Skler]

Randall is bad because you can't actually plan getting hit off the stage (and if you do then why would you plan on getting hit) and somebody who doesn't plan can benefit just as much as somebody who does plan. You can make an aggressive/semi dangerous move if you know randall will be on your side, but it's still just basing a play off of maybes and is ultimately unlikely to benefit you.

That is bad.

When the platforms are in motion water sprays out from the sides, it is obvious they are moving. I didn't say the movement wasn't random, just that it was obvious when it was happening. The first tiny piece of movement doesn't affect anybody and then it becomes VERY clear.

That's some nice clarification on fly guys. It doesn't make them good for competition though. They still ruin combos of the throw and attack variety (every combo) that go by them.

Kage, you pointed out something there. Fly Guys invalidate certain characters' options. They are also random. YS randomly invalidates certain characters' options. Options that are available to you on every other stage.

Marth only gets free platform tippers on certain parts of FoD. The stage does not constantly benefit him. FoD benefits him by being small, but it's fair enough that there's a small stage on the list. At least it isn't a small stage that has perfect platforms 100% of the time and a bunch of crap players shouldn't have to worry about.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

What I think would be an illuminating discussion to have is how we actually decide whether a stage is "neutral"/counterpick/banned. We have a great discussion going in the other room about stages, but I feel like most people have different sets of principles that they use to approach the debate. And that's totally fine, but I think people often forget that that's the case, and we should be more aware of it, otherwise it can clog up the discussion.

To that end, I'd like to see people talk about how they make those decisions about stages. Of course, it is almost impossible for us to come up with a complete, specific, objective set of criteria that will answer this question for us for every stage to everyone's satisfaction, but we should try to do the best we can. I think all attempts to create an objective set of criteria have really instead been, and always will be, an effort to articulate concisely just what our own personal criteria are and why we hold them. That of course is not to say that we do not need to justify our criteria to others; an opinion is only respectable to the degree that one can argue for it - and we need to make those arguments to others so that we can review our own opinions and see if they hold up against arguments we may not have heard before. Maybe that's a long-winded way of stating something that is obvious to everyone else, but I felt it would be useful to put out there.

There are two main sub-topics of said discussion:
- How much should a player have to play "against the stage" compared to against the opponent?
- How much, if at all, should character balance affect the stage list?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think the worst part about FoD is that you can't know how the platforms look on the part of the screen that is not visible until it is visible. If you have your back to that area and are defending your area, how do you know whether you should tilt/smash in place and tech/edgecancel off the platform or whether you should roll or dodge or whether you should retreating fair. Some of those options aren't even available at all times.

I would much rather play as fox on yoshis against marth knowing perfectly well that I don't want to be on the platform above him. That is static and fighting against my opponent is a matter of fighting against him with shared knowledge. Fighting on stages with random elements bothers me because punishment and favorable positioning isn't static.

Also, how is the water flowing a good sign of platform movement? I would think the platform moving is a good enough visual cue since they happen at the same time


edit- i think hyuga's discussion idea

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'd be glad to take part in the discussion Sheridan proposes.

Somewhat relevant to that topic, a few weeks ago, I wrote an outline for an essay on how we define the game we play and how a compromise of ideals is essential in order for the sustenance of the community. It was largely inspired by the inadequate debating methods that I often saw pop up in MD, and to a lesser extent, here, so I do want to point out to the community that the way they approach a lot of topics is fundamentally flawed; I don't know if this is something that I would do as an "MBR blog/theory publication" or something that I would do independently of the MBR, though.

 

[Skler]

The water sprays all over the place when the platform starts rising, so even if you can't see the platform yet you know it's coming up.

Fox on Yoshi's is not just fighting his opponent. He has to deal with flyguys messing up his uthrow uair and Randall saving Marth after an edgeguard that would have killed him. A platform being in a limbo is nothing compared to your opponent surviving a stock or a combo being missed because of the stage.


I'd be fine with trying to set standards for a stage. I honestly believe FoD will pass whereas YS will not (or both will fail). There is no possible objective set of rules that would say "platforms that go between 3 heights slowly at random times and normal blast zones," will be worse than "cloud on track that saves people, random fly guys who can screw combos/projectiles, a weird lip on the edge and tiny blast zones."

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox on Yoshi's is not just fighting his opponent. He has to deal with flyguys messing up his uthrow uair and Randall saving Marth after an edgeguard that would have killed him. A platform being in a limbo is nothing compared to your opponent surviving a stock or a combo being missed because of the stage.

i guess this is the root of where we disagree. I think a missed punish isn't as bad as effecting the way you move around the stage, at least in the degrees of effect those two stages have.

 

[Skler]

You forgot an important part though.

The stage affects the way you move around only if the camera isn't showing a platform and you plan on moving to it quickly. Otherwise you can clearly see what you're doing and move based on it.

Yoshi's affects you about 1/4th the time somebody is off stage and whenever the fly guys show up. That's an awful lot of the time compared to the really situational FoD thing.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But randall is on a set timer... Watch how kage uses him in some of his videos from zenith; he clearly knows the timing and strategizes based on where randall will be coming.

 

[Divinokage]

But randall is on a set timer... Watch how kage uses him in some of his videos from zenith; he clearly knows the timing and strategizes based on where randall will be coming.

Not exactly, I just adapt to my surroundings on the spot knowing my options.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thats definitely not how it seemed at times. Like with this dair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQceb0k9fdM#t=3m18s

 

[Divinokage]

Thats definitely not how it seemed at times. Like with this dair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQceb0k9fdM#t=3m18s

Oh.. that's just random luck.. lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Don't be so modest kage

 

[Skler]

One video showing one player getting lucky is not an argument, especially when he admits it.

I have personally witnessed people losing tournament sets because of randall coming out after an edgeguard that would have killed the other character on their last stock. While anecdotal evidence is bad, FoD can't do anything like that. You just don't hear people say "that platform moving up/down extremely slowly saved my opponent when they would have had no chance to survive otherwise!"

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What about when the platform moves up as marth is waiting to fsmash the opponent? Or when the platform moves up and breaks a grab? Or when it moves to a place the opponent can tech on? How about when you have reset to neutral and both players control half the stage, and then your platform suddenly changes to a height that hinders your character's strategy (such as stopping your character from shffling)

Not to mention, people just edge guard you off randall most of the time too. There are very few cases where one player lands on randall and the other player doesn't see him going for it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The moving platforms enables certain chars like Fox or Falco.. Peach, Sheik.. to do insane combos and enables them to camp more effectively.

You're gonna have to explain that one for me. I was always under the impression that run away strategies and stationary play was harder there than on other levels because the stage is tiny, most characters don't need to use a double jump to attack the top platform, and the platforms are bunched together conveniently to allow most characters the ability to attack or threaten multiple positions of the defending player at once (platform arrangement dependent).

I don't feel the acquisition of insane combos are limited to just them because slow characters get additional punishment potential as a result of the tiny platforms and small size. This enables them to trap their opponent more effectively, rather than just getting positional advantage when they DI and tech roll away (Ganon, Peach, etc. can often not chase this strat directly and have to pressure or whatever from there; FoD has many traits that mitigate this combo weakness).

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Could you guys move this discussion to the stage thread?

 

[Divinokage]

You're gonna have to explain that one for me. I was always under the impression that run away strategies and stationary play was harder there than on other levels because the stage is tiny, most characters don't need to use a double jump to attack the top platform, and the platforms are bunched together conveniently to allow most characters the ability to attack or threaten multiple positions of the defending player at once (platform arrangement dependent).

I don't feel the acquisition of insane combos are limited to just them because slow characters get additional punishment potential as a result of the tiny platforms and small size. This enables them to trap their opponent more effectively, rather than just getting positional advantage when they DI and tech roll away (Ganon, Peach, etc. can often not chase this strat directly and have to pressure or whatever from there; FoD has many traits that mitigate this combo weakness).

I'm saying there's no way to approach if let's say Fox decides to stand right below the platform.. you are forced to go behind or on top of him and you know it's always a bad idea to be above any character. He has free punishes if anyone decides to start attacking when Fox is in that position.

 

[Skler]

But the platform moves and since when was Fox impossible to approach from the front?

 

[Skler]

I submit we need to make this thread. If we want one do we just make one, or does it have to get approved or something?

Double post because otherwise nobody would read it.

 

[ArcNatural]

What about when the platform moves up as marth is waiting to fsmash the opponent? Or when the platform moves up and breaks a grab? Or when it moves to a place the opponent can tech on? How about when you have reset to neutral and both players control half the stage, and then your platform suddenly changes to a height that hinders your character's strategy (such as stopping your character from shffling)

I've been waiting for someone to finally have a good list of problems with FoD. I've never understood why Skler tries to get Yoshi's removed and keep FoD. It just seems like character bias to me. I like Yoshi's Island (My mains have been Fox/Marth) and I don't really like FoD simply because you can't really trust anything you do to be consistent based on the platforms. But I would never consider removing FoD simply because of this. My favorite stage is and has always been Battlefield.

Also there remains a need for a neutral that's small with small blastzones, which Yoshi's Island fulfills. I feel like a lot of characters would lose some viability if it was removed as it will remove the stage and add a ban stage to their opponent.

Using Marth as an example for anything seems silly when right now the only good Marth is M2k, and Marth has widely been regarded to be suffering from the current metagame.

 

[Divinokage]

But the platform moves and since when was Fox impossible to approach from the front?

If the Fox is smart he'll stand below the platform and like I said it will force you to have only one option to approach and that's obviously too obvious for the Fox and you'll get hit instead. How will you approach with a character like Falcon? You'll wavedash in and gentleman or something, you can't nair or upair because of the platform it won't reach Fox. But even then that approach is terrible lol. Spacies do it all the time on Stadium too, just try to approach him in that position, it's so hard.

 

[Zankoku]

Requesting a formal discussion on the use or removal of counter-only stages, with regards to first round being determined through stage striking, and the potential impact on future stage lists should all stages become legal for the first round of a set.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The issue will always come into play if there is an even number of stages. Currently I'm fine with strikes that choose a good balance between the stages leaving other stages that are "fair" to be played on, but so far only if there is overall balance between them.

How does this debate system work? In the rules it seemed like it was only the results of a formalized discussion, but I haven't seen a whole lot of interest to do that so far. Maybe this isn't the place to ask it, but do we have to make a general request for the debate? Like if I were to (hypothetically) ask KK, kage, tec0, joe replicate and kishalpha individually to join me in a debate without posting in this thread, could/should i post the results in this forum? Do all the members of the debate have to be MBR members for me to post it? Perhaps if I were to ask kels or tom to join in a discussion as a 1 time thing. Just curious for now, but maybe i would lead one of these discussions if nobody else steps up (i think the system is neat)