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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #9: Wario

Chip.

you know what to do
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Not ****, but it's like 60/40, right?

I find it really hard to punish Marth's Fair vs. good Marth's. They can space that shiz hella =O.

For as much as I see and talk to Fiction at tournaments we're at, we've never played before XD.
 

PhantomX

WarioMan
BRoomer
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It's 45:55 actually, our only 40:60 is MK probably. 2 frame upairs, ridiculous range dairs, 6 jumps (not gimpable, unlike Marth), and an invincible Up B with tremendous range and little to no room for punishing make him our hardest.

Fair leaves openings for poking or retaliation (since it swings from high to low) unless they tipper it every time. Honestly, if the Marth doesn't tipper **** near every aerial, I consider Marth vs Wario a hard matchup for Marth. Marth is also made gay by super awesome pivot grab and his silly upair.

TL's bair is better than Marth's fair vs Wario b/c it sweeps form low to high, leaving us with less awesome punishment options.
 

TheJerm

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I do play you in friendlies phantom.. like everytime we at the same tournament. I just dont do alot, maybe 3 or 3 at a time. Also, I dont actually believe its in our favor, messing around. I say its even, and I want to prove that to you. But i'm not good with explaining stuff, I rather show it in battle. But if I 3 stock fiction, reflex, or slikvik (only warios I have left.. I think) then ima say its TL favor lol.

<3 PX
 

smashkng

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TL's grab and throws sucks and is unable to force Wario to jump break unless the grab is in an edge, so Wario doesn't need to worry about being grabbed against TL. Grabbing Wario in the edge is like impossible, Wario can recover very high, so he is safe from normal grabs. Forget grab release on Wario if you guys are TL.
 

Sosuke

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Grabbing Wario in the air (where he is more then half the time) leads to an air release. Grabbing him on a bike does too, but that rarely happens in high level play.
 

TheJerm

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Yea, grab release is pretty much out of the question for us. But we dont need it =]
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
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Feb 8, 2008
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7,048
Spam him 'till he stays on the ground.
Naah, actually nothing. Wario's will keep jumping around.
LOL.
-stand there-
-wario loses all his stocks-

ty so much for the advice mister.
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
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Summary ^_^

EVEN! :wario:


Best Stage to fight Wario on:



Other good stages against Wario:
-Smashville

Worst Stage to fight Wario on:




Other bad stages to fight Wario on:

-Castle Siege
-Brinstar

Frame data: Go here to compare Wario's frame data with Toon Link's.

Jab:
1st jab total: 22
1st jab hits on frame 8
1st jab shield hit lag: 7
1st jab shield stun: 9
1st jab advantage: -12
2nd jab hits as early as frame 17 (counting frame 1 as first frame of 1st jab)
Linking to 2nd jab advantage: -6 (opponent has 6 frames between shield stun and 2nd jab hit box)
Both jabs total: 38 minimum (assuming fastest possible 2nd jab)
2nd jab shield hit lag: 7
2nd jab shield stun: 9
2nd jab advantage: -19

Dash Attack:
Total: 49
First hits on frame 4
Shield hit lag: 7
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: -43

Dtilt:

Total: 33
First hits on frame 5
Shield hit lag: 8
Shield stun: 10
Advantage: -26

Ftilt:
Total: 36
First hits on frame 14
Shield hit lag: 10
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -18

Utilt:
Total: 36
First hits on frame 12
Shield hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -22

Dsmash:
Total: 78
First hits on frame 8 (behind Wario)
Shield hit lag: 10
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -66

Fsmash:

Total: 44
First hits on frame 9
Super armor: 8 – 11
Shield hit lag: 12
Shield stun: 18
Advantage: -29

Usmash:
Total: 46
First hits on frame 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21
Shield hit lag (last hit): 9
Shield stun (last hit): 11
Advantage (last hit): -23

Nair:
Total: 49
Landing lag: 10
1st hit box on frame 4
1st hit box shield hit lag: 8
1st hit box shield stun: 11
1st hit box advantage: -7
2nd hit box on frame 15 – 38 at least
Linking to 2nd hit box advantage: -7 (opponent has 7 frames between shield stun and 2nd hit box)
2nd hit box shield hit lag: 6
2nd hit box shield stun: 7
2nd hit box advantage: -9

Dair:
Total: 37
First hits on frame 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21
Landing lag: 19 (auto-cancels after frame 24 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag (last hit): 6
Shield stun (last hit): 7
Advantage (last hit): -18
Auto-cancel advantage: -4

Fair:
Total: 37
First hits on frame 5
Landing lag: 16 (auto-cancels after frame 26 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag: 7
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: -14
Auto-cancel advantage: -21

Bair:
Total: 49
First hits on frame 9
Landing lag: 30 (auto-cancels after frame 33 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -28
Auto-cancel advantage: -24

Uair:
Total: 47
First hits on frame 8
Landing lag: 9 (auto-cancels after frame 36 {exclusive})
Shield hit lag: 11
Shield stun: 17
Advantage: -3
Auto-cancel advantage: -24

Shortest Possible Neutral-B:
Total: 45
Grabs: 8 – 23

Longest Possible Neutral-B:
Total: 95
Grabs: 8 – 73

Side-B:
First hits on frame 20

Up-B:
First hits on frame 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28
Out of shield: can hit on frame 6 if timed perfectly

Down-B:
First Attack Frame:
Charge Level Zero (about 0:00 – 0:17): Trips on Frame 16 (no damage)
Charge Level One (about 0:17 – 0:57): Frame 10
Charge Level Two (about 0:57 – 1:50): Frame 5
Charge Level Three (Full Charge): Frame 9 (Super Armor Frames 5-10)
Knockback:
Charge Time…..Mario KO% (at the center of FD with no DI)
0:56…..………..187 (Useless)
0:58…..………..98
1:00…..………..95
1:05…..………..92
1:10…..………..85
1:15…..………..81
1:20…..………..76
1:25…..………..72
1:30…..………..67
1:35…..………..62
1:40…..………..60
1:45…..………..55
1:50…..………..52
Full…..………...96
Full Charge: from startup of any Waft to Full Charge = 6697 frames (1:51.729 seconds)

Standing Grab:
Total: 29
First grabs on frame 6

Dash Grab:
Total: 39
First grabs on frame 10

Pivot Grab:

Total: 35
First grabs on frame 8

Spot Dodge:
Total: 25
Invincible frames 2 – 20

Roll Backward:
Total: 37
Invincible frames 4 – 21

Roll Forward:

Total: 37
Invincible frames 4 – 21

Air Dodge:
Total: 39
Invincible frames 4 – 29

Jump airborne on frame 7
SH airborne for 38 frames
SH Fast Fall airborne for 28 frames


Moves to watch out for: (:wario:)
Bite, Fair, Dair, Nair, Uair, Bair, 1:30-1:55 Waft, Fsmash, DACUS, Grab

Moves that are very useful in this matchup:
(:toonlink:)
Bair, Boomerang, Bombs, Upair, Zair, Nair, Usmash, Utilt, Fair

Miscellaneous:
*Arrows/bombs can gimp Wario when he is recovering with his bike.
*Warios love the air. Forcing them to watch out for the boomerang AND your sword can come in handy.
*Back air makes Wario's approach from the air very difficult.
 

TheJerm

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Wtf shiekant.. I think you do these match ups wrong to bother me. But w/e..

And the stage list is wronggg. Cept the japes thing, ban japes.
 

Chip.

you know what to do
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It seems like Sheikant makes the match-up ratio whatever he feels it is and doesn't listen to what the other good players think and logistics behind the match-up.


I kinda wish Jerm wrote these match-up things more =/ No offense or anything.
 

TheJerm

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Hmm, I know I said Ps1 shiekant, but I also think its even with smashville. Yoshi's is decent too. But yoshi's isnt that great for us either. So I suggest putting smashville and Ps1 and the best stages to fight wario on. And chose your preference.

You dont want to fight wario on FD because if the wario gets campy, it can be REALLY hard. The air camping would be a problem. But dont ban FD, because we can still manage, always ban japes. Killing would be too much of a problem on japes.
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
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Then what should it be? ugh fiiine. Ill just say even like I thought it was and go against every wario's post (and some TLs saying 60-40 or 55-45 wario). The only ones that said even were you and jerm.
 

TheJerm

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I wasnt worried about the match up ratio as much as the stages. Dont want some poor toon to counter pick to FD, then get camped in a 8 min match expecting the stage to actually help them.
 

Lobos

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Campy warios FTL.......I think I mentioned somewhere that wario is boring to fight lol and some stuff about grab releasing but no one uses it really.
 

Corpsecreate

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Man I hate wario :( His horizontal movement makes it hard to predict where he's going to go, generally though they like to jump around so throw your boomerang upwards and they'll usually jump right into it. Also, you can Usmash if you manage to get a grab in.
 

demonictoonlink

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This matchup isn't terrible, but not good. I'd say 50-50 to 55-45 Wario. POsSiBlY slight Tink advantage.
Sadly, we really have to camp our ***** off for this to happen.
Zair>Grab doesn't really work...at all
Zair>Pivot grab is a great mixup.
 

Sosuke

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Zair -> grab/Nair works really well on Wario. >_>
 

TheJerm

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Zair grab is pretty neutral in this match up. Shouldnt have even been brought up. Zair to pivot grab is a great mix up in general, but doing it against wario can be super risky. Zair to nair is the best option if you get a zair to hit. Zair isnt that great in this match up. Bombs also arent that great in this match up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUmgEpPwIVE

Just use your boomerang and arials to shut him down. Bait smash attacks.
 

demonictoonlink

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Firstly, sexy match.
Secondly, I didn't see a single Zair>Grab. Timotee also DI everyone of mine...
Thanks for the match. Very helpful
 

Lobos

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I don't zair grab wario at all, way to risky. I fear that fart so I also keep an eye on the timer >_>. If I do pull a grab off its either a pivot grab or I bait smash attacks and thier shield.
 

demonictoonlink

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Has anyone mentioned Grab him during Bike?
Also, spiking him on his bike isn't that risky, but still...ya know... >__>
 

copacetic

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Worcester, MA
Also, spiking him on his bike isn't that risky, but still...ya know... >__>
It's easier just to hit him with a nair or arrow after he bikes. It does basically the same thing since if you steal that jump they usually can't get back anyway. Unless their down-b is charged, but then they waste it for recovery instead of hitting you, or you can spike that.

TL can gimp wario pretty easily
 

Sosuke

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Except for the fact that grabbing Wario off his bike gets you a free kill move.
 

Sosuke

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Sheikant, I'm sorry, but learn to freaking read.

Jesus.
 
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