Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #9: Wario

[TLMSheikant]

Time for another rediscussion.

GO! ^_^

 

[ssbbFICTION]

60-40 Wario. Maybe 55-45 or even depending on if the TLs I play are actually my level....I don't know much about the character except that he doesnt kill well.

 

[Sosuke]

Wario never dies. =/

 

[WindMajor]

I've never seen any good Wario's play in my life, so I'm still confused as to why he's #3. All that i'll contribute for now is to not get hit by his obnoxiously smelly gas, and that you can grab a Wario out of his bike and be perfectly safe.

 

[MJG]

I played a wario today (Kit) at my Midwest Circuit...They like to air dodge into you a lot looking for openings... I dont really know what to do on this match but the only thing that seemed effective was baiting an air dodge and starting a back air chain that way.

We can grab him out of his bike (thanks sasuke ^_^) and we can also go for a safe spike depending on how the wario recovers with his spike.

Air campy warios are annoying

I hate this match up and fail at it badly so my opinion would probably be way off.

 

[Sosuke]

>_>
Well I'd say that I know the matchup pretty well and its like, 60-40 if the Wario knows how to play it.

(If he doesn't, it's like 50-50 or 45- 55 Wario)

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ Matchup discussion always assume both players know the matchup and are at a high level of play. :/ I think this is even but the waft says no its 55-45 wario >_>.

 

[Sosuke]

That's why I put it in parenthesis. Most Warios don't know the match-up well, so I'm just sayin'. >_>


Wario has a lot more then just the waft to help him.

 

[MJG]

That's why I put it in parenthesis. Most Warios don't know the match-up well, so I'm just sayin'. >_>


Wario has a lot more then just the waft to help him.

How do you beat air campy warios? @.@

I played reflexes wario on battle field for a ladder match and once he got up by a little, he camped the platforms for the rest of the match >.>

 

[Hyro]

Yeah I wouldn't take a Wario to battlefield, they're too good on platforms.

Basically, warios like to air camp a lot. They like to jump, DOUBLE JUMP and airdodge. Most warios I've seen will do that the whole match. They think it's safe. What I do is keep them out of the air. Here's advice, keep projectiles and attacks on top of Wario's head. Make him only feel safe on the ground which is where you attack him. Throw a lot of bombs UP and throw your boomerang at an upwards angle on top of his head. They sure like to jump into those. After that, do exactly what they do, jump, double jump, but instead of airdodging, put up a bair wall. From my expierence, Wario's love jumping so much, they jump into a ton of attacks.

When you finally get them to stop jumping out of fear, take advantage of them on the ground. My favorite killing move on Wario is upair, usually when they're recovering and they're on their bike, they have to jump off, I think that's one of the most predictable things about them and placing an upair hitbox on top of their bike is a good idea.

That fart though...it doesn't matter how much your up...it takes a long time to kill Wario...but he can just fart and comeback. If we found a way to not get hit by that I think it'd be more towards even...but he kills you pretty easily and like usual, we have a lot of trouble killing him lol. I'd say 60-40 or 55-45 Wario.

TL;DR - Keep them out of the air with bombs, boomerangs and bair. Try reading his bike recoveries for easy gimps/kills.

And for all you angry wario mainers who are about to come in here and yell at me, if they don't do the classic aircamping, I guess I wouldn't know what to do in this matchup. So basically the only wario I wouldn't know how to fight is PhantomX lol

 

[MJG]

Yeah I wouldn't take a Wario to battlefield, they're too good on platforms.

Basically, warios like to air camp a lot. They like to jump, DOUBLE JUMP and airdodge. Most warios I've seen will do that the whole match. They think it's safe. What I do is keep them out of the air. Here's advice, keep projectiles and attacks on top of Wario's head. Make him only feel safe on the ground which is where you attack him. Throw a lot of bombs UP and throw your boomerang at an upwards angle on top of his head. They sure like to jump into those. After that, do exactly what they do, jump, double jump, but instead of airdodging, put up a bair wall. From my expierence, Wario's love jumping so much, they jump into a ton of attacks.

When you finally get them to stop jumping out of fear, take advantage of them on the ground. My favorite killing move on Wario is upair, usually when they're recovering and they're on their bike, they have to jump off, I think that's one of the most predictable things about them and placing an upair hitbox on top of their bike is a good idea.

That fart though...it doesn't matter how much your up...it takes a long time to kill Wario...but he can just fart and comeback. If we found a way to not get hit by that I think it'd be more towards even...but he kills you pretty easily and like usual, we have a lot of trouble killing him lol. I'd say 60-40 or 55-45 Wario.

TL;DR - Keep them out of the air with bombs, boomerangs and bair. Try reading his bike recoveries for easy gimps/kills.

And for all you angry wario mainers who are about to come in here and yell at me, if they don't do the classic aircamping, I guess I wouldn't know what to do in this matchup. So basically the only wario I wouldn't know how to fight is PhantomX lol

Wow Awesome!! *lol*

I actually did what you said to do about a day or two before MW-W Circuit on warios but i was grounded instead of jumping with the wario and waited until they Air dodged and started a Bair chain...after that, i basically did whatever...i Fail hard at the match up and ill just have to take what you said into consideration and continue to fight the uphill battle.

Id rather fight marth than wario >.>

Ive also tried up airing the wario after they use their bike to help them recover but i missed (maybe it was because of wifi? @.@)

Any recent videos against a Wario would be helpful as well...or anyone that has recently fought toonlink/wario.

One more thing..i watched Holms (who took 3rd) and Kit (Took 7th) at a tourney yesterday and the ZSS' neutral air stopped warios fart waft (or whatever the move is called)

Are there moves for toonlink where he can stop this? I know that Dair can stop it but you would have to react extremely fast.

Warios like to use this when you are trying to recover and I believe that it does more knockback when it is about 3/4th full and more damage when it is full...

 

[PhantomX]

And for all you angry wario mainers who are about to come in here and yell at me, if they don't do the classic aircamping, I guess I wouldn't know what to do in this matchup. So basically the only wario I wouldn't know how to fight is PhantomX lol

And Fiction... plus some of my underlings

If the Wario is not ********, you shouldn't land an upair pretty much ever, AND it can leave you vulnerable to wafts due to how committed that move is. Your best bet is, of course, upsmash or uptilt... though I've been pegged a few times with a surprise fair/nair (that's fresh).

@mjg - You can stop the waft with anything you do as long as it hits Wario within the first five frames. He has no hitbox until frame five, but the move is technically still "out" so you can interrupt it during that tiny window. However, Wario is fully vulnerable when he's farting, so if you use a disjointed move ON WARIO from above (there's an invisible hitbox around him), you will hit him out of it.

I'm gonna play against Santi's TL at Oh Snap in like 3 weeks in our money match [yes, he's going to something, it's amazing], so I'll make ****ed sure to get that recorded.

 

[Ashraf23]

Have not really played any notable Warios but I know they are impossible to kill lol.

 

[DFat2]

55:45

Biggest advantage is Killing ability. Wario's killing abality > Tinks.

Other than that, the fact that wario's Air control is ridiculous might "Not Help" Tinks Camp came. 2 Jumps reach from one corner of Final D to the other. So following and getting a Dair might not be that bad (evading the projectiles of course).

All of this, of course, while approaching intelligently. The chances are that, while you're (tink) trying to figure a pattern on Wario's air camp Game, you'll either eat a Dair or a Uair, or Bite.

And TWiNKatGC, If you'd like, next tourney I'd like to play you. Maybe a MM, I don't know we'll figure that out Later.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I money matched dfat2 ^^^ and i can say this is wario's advantage clearly. I could have a good lead then out of nowhere a waft came and evened things out :/ killing me even with DI at 70%. That kind of killing power is too good to ignore. I won but it still felt his advantage and more like I was outplaying dfat2. 55-45 wario imo. Btw, back airs and rang are sooo good in this matchup.

 

[WindMajor]

I'll play you and get ***** if that's what you want. It's all a learning experience after all.

Anyways, copy/pasta from the counterpick thread.

Counter- Smashville, Yoshi's Island
Ban- Brinstar, Norfair

 

[TLMSheikant]

This needs more input. As in a LOT of input.

 

[Sosuke]

Specials:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5282181&postcount=7

Smashes:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5303946&postcount=24

Tilts:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5429232&postcount=31

Throws:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5429536&postcount=32

Aerials:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5434506&postcount=34




It's outdated, but better then anything contributed so far/ will be contributed later.

 

[Lobos]

Grab releasing wario is fun........grab releasing wario on the edge = spike ^.^......I feel like this match up is even. Not from just that but just overall experience with warios. What a boring and long match >_>

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

Grab releasing wario is fun........grab releasing wario on the edge = spike ^.^......I feel like this match up is even. Not from just that but just overall experience with warios. What a boring and long match >_>

Lobos.....we don't have a grab release on Wario......last time I checked anyway. >_>

EDIT: OH on the edge. Then yes we do. It's rather hard to get though.

 

[Sosuke]

Grab releases occur if you grab him in the air.

 

[Lobos]

lol are you trying to say I can't grab release wario?

 

[QUIVO]

I don't really know this matchup, but from what I've played.. wario's like to jump around a lot. I throw boomerangs and bombs in the air, punish their second jumps with uair, and keep away from them when they're in their shield since their nair out of it seems to be pretty good and has some decent followups.

He can kill us fairly quickly while he lives for a long *** time, so its our job to space well and play smart.

 

[PhantomX]

Grab releases occur if you grab him in the air.

Grab release as TL occurs if you have him dangling over the edge of the stage or a platform, or if he's ******** while you're holding him and mashes. How are you even grabbing anyone as TL anyway? (lol, jp)

 

[TLMSheikant]

Bump bump bump. I wanna hear more about this matchup :/. Lets get to page 5! >__>

 

[MJG]

We should here from jerm since he 2-0d Basseem at Oh Snap

I hope you recorded your MM against Santi Phantom

Congratz on getting 4th by the way Jerm ^_^

 

[copacetic]

I play against my friends wario all the time, we go about even, but I faced him in a tourney yesterday and took him to lylat and *****. possible cp? they can't approach from above too easily bc of the platforms, so their aerial game will be more telegraphed

 

[MJG]

I play against my friends wario all the time, we go about even, but I faced him in a tourney yesterday and took him to lylat and *****. possible cp? they can't approach from above too easily bc of the platforms, so their aerial game will be more telegraphed

The wario could platform camp if he wanted to. Nothing stoping him but idk...ive never played a wario on lylat. Battlefield is annoying as hell when playing a wario

 

[PhantomX]

I didn't play my MM with Santi, I was playing poorly on Saturday...

I think the Warios need to get some TL practice before we judge the matchup... the amount of experience vs each others characters is currently highly skewed in the Toon Link players' favor.

For now, Jerm has a strategy that seems to work very well.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I actually know this matchup from Timotee! I actually was able to beat his wario both times in two out of three.

Shiekant: Can I come back from AiB to contribute now?

 

[OniTheWolf]

I have not played many warios, and I still hate this match up -_-. IDK what it is, but the Wario's I play Air camp, and also, "bike camp". They love Airdodge or spotdodge to FSmash (**** super armor), that DAir, and OMG, that Bite

 

[GreyClover]

Play defensively and the match is a lot harder for Wario.

 

[.REMIX.]

Yeah i avoid wario when they approach u while in the air n fast falling to uair you. Thats only 1 way mtho and grabbing them outa bike is pretty fun ^_^

 

[Death Arcana]

i'd say this matchup is at best even at worst when wario plays gay is 40-60

 

[MJG]

I have not played many warios, and I still hate this match up -_-. IDK what it is, but the Wario's I play Air camp, and also, "bike camp". They love Airdodge or spotdodge to FSmash (**** super armor), that DAir, and OMG, that Bite

Grab them out of their bike and dont take them to stages like BF because they WILL platform camp you until they find an easy opening after your frustration

This match up is complete BS

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

I have played Copacetic more than any other person I've ever played. We have probably played hundreds of matches. I would say the matchup is 55-45 in Wario's favor.
But I'd like to say that the matchup is very stage dependant. I don't mean the numbers, just the play style. It seems like both characters benefit from platforms in their camping. It's difficult to approach Tink under platforms on BF with Wario, but Wario can evade projectiles from on top of the platforms.
Just go FD or SV in this match. Neither character has enough advantage camping and it'll just make the match boring.

 

[TheJerm]

I think its even. Well, actually I think its our favor due to me two stocking every wario ive played at least once. Including, phantom X, DMG, bassM, poptop. But i'll settle for even. Bair ***** this match up. Just gotta play smart, and bair there attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m6FZwXgJQc

 

[Lobos]

I think its even.....jerm is the wario killer?

 

[Chip.]

Yes yes yes Jermsies knows the secret to the Wario match-up too! Bairsies =D

I remember figuring out that just projectile camping wasn't effective because Wario's can "sneak" through them. But I thought TL's Bair is a lot like Marth's Fair and Marth ***** Wario so I started spamming Bair

0_o

Evensies

 

[PhantomX]

Lol, only problem with what you just said Chip is that Marth doesn't **** Wario... and I, at least, like his fair, b/c I can punish that ****.

I donno though. I want to get in a lot of play against Jerm to finally put a definite number on this (dude has so much Wario experience, but the "top" Warios NEVER play vs good TLs, it makes sense that he'd be beating us), but I'm not sure if he'd be up for that, for the reason I just delineated, lol.

P.S. I two stocked you and Hyro in MMs at WHOBO, Jerm [you were playing bad that first round too] (I guess the only notable TLs I've really VSed)... it matters little to nothing when discussing matchup ratios.