Toon Link Hate?

SmashBro99

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#41
I love Link, I love Toon Link.

Toon Link CAN have his own moveset...he SHOULD have his own moveset! I see him as a wasted slot if he'll be the same as he was in Brawl.

I'm sad to say seeing him on the Spirit Tracks stage...thinking that might mean he wouldn't be playable again...I was happy about it...
 

_Darkpit_

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#42
In my opinion I don't like Toon-Link... I think Link as a character is over represented.... we have standard Link... Toon-Link.... AND a Toon-Link in the 3DS stage...

This is to much and a big waste for characters who deserve to add in SSB4. One Link is enough. ^^
 
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#45
An alt wouldn't work for Toon Link, his proportions are way too different from Link, not to mention his stubby legs would make some moves look very awkward for him, hence why they changed many of his kick related moves for him.
 

Ryan.

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#46
I'm not gonna lie, I was pretty upset at his reveal at first. I just have this thing about clones and had in mind a roster with characters with all unique move-sets. I never hated him to begin with, just thought he wasn't necessary.THEN I started playing as him more in Brawl and realized he plays very differently than Link, despite having similar specials. I just hope they change his final smash so it is different from Link's, but now I'm completely okay with it and really enjoy playing as him in Brawl.
 

Tetra's Tracker

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#48
I used to be very against him returning for SSB4, for the usual reasons - clones are bad, we only need one Link, other Zelda characters are more deserving etc. but my mind eventually changed.

It's easy to say that we only need one Link, but I think having two is a positive thing in regards to representing the whole series. Firstly we have the two main 'types' of Link represented, the 'adult'/adolescent Link and the child Link. It can be argued that Toon Link is actually the more traditional Link due to the hero of the first game being a child and there being more games where Link is a child than ones where he is an adult. It also shows off the series two main and contrasting art styles - the more 'realistic' art style (such as Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess and to an extent A Link to the Past) and the more 'cartoony' style (which is not just limited to the 'Toon Link' Zelda games, games such as A Link Between Worlds and the Oracles can also be put in that category). For this reason I think Toon Link is a fair fourth Zelda rep that brings positive things to the table.

From a personal point of view I love playing as him in Brawl, he's one of my favourite characters. My opinion on him returning started to change when I started playing as him and realised how fun he was to play as. I didn't want to miss out on playing as him again in the next game. Also The Wind Waker is one of my favourite games of all time and that game's Link being my favourite Link in the series. I also love all the other 'Toon Link' Zelda games - Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks and the Four Swords trilogy (yes I know bar Phantom Hourglass they're all a different Link to TWW Link, but they're the same appearance-wise).
 

Aenglaan

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#49
Although I have to confess that I would love to see Toon Link have his own moveset, I don't mind it. With characters like Sheik and Z. Samus, the reasons for having different moves is understandable. For any version of Link, I guess it just makes sense to give him the bow, bombs, boomerang, and hookshot.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#50
Clone characters really have an undeserved stigma at times. Firstly, if a roster has a great selection of characters then it can perfectly afford a couple of clones, their presence is not gonna break the game and the diversity of the cast makes up for them. And even if a fighter is a clone with a similar moveset, they may bring a different playstyle to the table like Ryu/Akuma. When I play as Link and Toon Link, they feel so different that I often forget one is a clone of another.
 

scoutgsg

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#51
Honestly, Toon Link cloning Link makes more logical sense than having Ganondorf cloning Captain Falcon. If anything, they need to overhaul Ganondorf's moveset completely and utilize his sword more.
You're on point with the Ganondorf and Falcon thing.
but we honestly dont need toon link. When you get down to it they are the same person (yes I know technically they're different links) be it in their games they both hold a sword and shield. Have a bow and boomerang and have bombs. Now you might make the argument that ZZS and Samus are the same person (which they are) and Zelda and Shiek. But obviously it makes sense to have them causebin that form they're comepletely theyre own be it sheik does ninja stuff while zelda is magic. Samus uses equipment while zero uses fighting with a gun.
toon link is a cloan. And from whatbit looks like so far he will stay that way. Im not complaining if they flesh him out and make him his own moveset then more power to the toon fans. But I would still prefer Ghirhim or somebody else. We do need villans.
[/quote]
 
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Oatmeal.

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#52
I don't like Toon Link, but it's not because he's a clone. Really, I'm not sure why I don't like him in the first place .....maybe it's just because of his chibiness. I've never been a fan of chibi.
 

ProjectAngel

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#55
I can tolerate Toon Link because of two things:

1. He's a very, VERY different flavor of Link- actually, he's an entirely different Link altogether, and not a younger version of the same character like in Melee. Not just that (barring any Smash 4 changes), he's WAY better than his realistic counterpart.
2. He represents quite a major part of the Legend of Zelda franchise; most notably the cartoony-looking games starting from Wind Waker onwards.

I didn't play him in Brawl initially because I was kinda miffed about his inclusion, but he grew on me a bit. Why shouldn't he stay?
 
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Eight Melodies

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#56
Wind Waker's my favorite Zelda, so I'm good with Toon Link. It helps that the way he plays is far better than regular Link.
 

Brendan Stepladder

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#57
I've actually though a lot recently about the at-times baffling roster choices Sakurai has made for Smash 4. However, the more I think about it, I realize all the roster decisions are very justifiable.

Toon Link, while a clone of Link, has a very different playstyle and personality compared to his original counterpart. Also, Link and TL are popular amongst casual players, and TL and Melee's YL were highly-tiered.

Not all clones are bad. Pichu and Dr. Mario were lazy clones, but Link and TL are very diverse characters.
 

ChunkyBeef

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#58
I'll be honest, I always figured Toon Link was put into Brawl in an attempt to make a version of Link that wasn't inherently a god awful fighter. Best of all, it worked! Mission accomplished!

All kidding aside, the hate around Toon Link is primarily because he's an unimaginative character. The only moveset changes he got were because he's got tiny arms and legs and they couldn't feasibly port the entire moveset over from Link. The thing that I find interesting is that in spite of doing the same exact thing in Melee with Young Link, they chose to do it AGAIN in Brawl. They had tons of development time. Would it have killed them to at least give us a series of different specials for the character, at least, and differentiate Toon Link from his adult counterpart? The fact that no genuine effort was made is the thing that irks me the most about Toon Link. It's a genuine blight on the series, a character symbolic of the genuine laziness of the developers in their desperate attempts to pad the roster; a cancer that's only seemed to grow with each new iteration. It wasn't taken care of in Melee, and it got worse in Brawl.

Now it's back in Smash 4, and there's no sign of change here, either. It's genuinely disappointing that the character has SO MUCH POTENTIAL to be more unique and interesting outside a few obligatory moveset changes, but it feels like there's been no effort made.

tl;dr: Young Link/Toon Link are the Pink Gold Peach of the Smash Brothers series; developer laziness personified.
 

Dautrix

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#59
I started off with the, "why is Toon Link even in this game" attitude. I hated Young Link with a passion back in Melee. Only to find out I can use T-Link best. Sure, clones aren't exactly smiled upon in any fighting game. Yet, Toon Link offers things regular link doesn't. Regular Link may strike with more power, but Toon Link compensates for that with his speed. Regular Link has great moves, good combo potential, and great tricks that I haven't seen many actually use effectively. Though, given Link's moves in a faster form is almost a godsend in my opinion. I'm glad to see him return. I would've been bummed if he didn't.
:toonlink:
 
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Rockaphin

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#60
The only thing that gets to me is the fact that Toon Link COULD be very different from Link but instead they seemed to take the lazy way out. If they want to represent Wind Waker, then implement elements from that game. That's my only complaint, I actually like using Toon Link.
 

scoutgsg

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#61
The only thing that gets to me is the fact that Toon Link COULD be very different from Link but instead they seemed to take the lazy way out. If they want to represent Wind Waker, then implement elements from that game. That's my only complaint, I actually like using Toon Link.
Exactly. He could use the skull hammer as a side special, the deku leaf as up special/recovery and at least change his hookshot grab to a grappling hook to be more true to ww. Toon link has oodles of untapped potential. Its sad that its not being used this time around.
 

Morbi

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#62
Exactly. He could use the skull hammer as a side special, the deku leaf as up special/recovery and at least change his hookshot grab to a grappling hook to be more true to ww. Toon link has oodles of untapped potential. Its sad that its not being used this time around.
I have always wanted Toon Link to have the grappling hook; it seems like it would be such an easy change. I also don't like how they changed his fire arrows back to generic arrows. Simple stuff like that would really make him feel more individualized.
 

Diddy Kong

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#63
I think am gonna make Toon Link one of my secondaries. Really don't see why this character is so hated.

Yes, his moveset animations are like Link's. But guess what? He IS Link.

What I posted just now in the Isaac thread (which has a Toon Link discussion going on now for whatever reason..) :
About Toon Link: I really like him. Perhaps it's cause Link himself always sucks, or the fact that I really, REALLY liked Wind Waker and like his design to. But I don't really have a problem with him being so cloney. It makes sense, he's Link. Sure, I'd like some more differences between them (however, TP Link and WW Link have quite some similar techniques already! Overhead Slash / Helm Splitter and Backslash for example) - but I don't see it as 100% needed. Link is Link. And their weight / fall speed / attack speed different aerials already justify their similarities I feel.
 
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#64
Besides if any Link "desperately needs a moveset overhaul." It's this Link anyway --> :4link:

Never really understood why people desperately want Toon Link to be the one to change when Link's moveset has been pretty mediocre for three games straight. While Toon Link's playstyle is pretty good on it's own.

I'm not saying that Toon Link doesn't need any changes whatsoever (with the new physics, he could probably use some tweaks here and there to keep up with the rest after all), but really it's Link who is the one who could use those changes more.
 
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Topplox

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#65
I dont dislike Toon Link. Toon link is a great idea for a character. Just shape wise he differs from Link quite a lot. Where most people get upset is the lack of Wind Waker inspiration. Toon Link really has no reason to be a clone. He has enough unique tools in his game to make his own moveset. His B moves alone could involve his magic leaf, the Skull Hammer and maybe using his wand to summon wind or small tornado. I have never played Windwaker myself, but I know that there is enough inspiration you could take out of the game to make Toon Link very fresh and interesting. Him being a clone is much like Ganondorf being a clone of CF. It feels like they got lazy or ran out of time so they just plastered the same move set with very small tweaks to the speed, strength and knock back. That was my big problem with brawl. When they started they seemed to be trying so hard, but by the end they seemed to give up. 3 Land masters, Two PK star storms (Ness does'nt even learn that move.), even ROB's Final smash was lack luster.

People dont dislike Toon Link because he is a Clone. They dislike him because he should not have to be a clone. He has a enough original material for his own move set. I hope with the tweaks they are doing to move sets that we can expect more differences between the two.
 

Morbi

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#66
I actually like Toon Link because he is a clone. It was pretty much guaranteed that I could main him. In the end, that is all that is relevant. He does feel like a missed opportunity, but at least he is a fun missed opportunity. It would be great to see the Deku Leaf and the Skull Hammer though. My biggest complaint is that they removed his Fire Arrows, after that, my next biggest complain is that they don't use his grappling hook.
 

andimidna

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#67
I just can't help but feel like we're being forced to "settle" with Toon Link. Especially when I see people justifying him with "he's kind of almost different"... And the vast amount of Zelda options makes this especially noticeable IMO.

But if there is a Zelda Newcomer, I won't end up being mad about his inclusion. If there isn't though... I'll be very disappointed, again.
Wind Waker was the best Zelda game. How could I hate it's protagonist? :4tlink:
I'm surprised that your favorite Zelda game is one of the few Impa-less ones. :p

But I do agree that Wind Waker is amazing.
One of the most amazing things about Wind Waker is how unique it was from anything else titled "Zelda" at its time.
It's very different from the rest of the series (except its sequels)

So where is that in his moveset? I think they could have done Wind Waker better with another character, but they could have easily made something amazing out of just Toon Link. There are so many missed out options, once again, it's like we're settling for him.
It seems a bit insulting to the Zelda series to have the list of characters be 2 Links, 2 Zeldas, and 1 Captain Falcon, and I think there is a lot of room for improvement.

One thing that would have greatly reduced hate for Toon Link, is if they had just called him Young Link and considered him a veteran. The design upgrade was barely more drastic than Link to Link (or the others), and the moveset changes from game to game have been much more drastic than Young Link to Toon Link. Zelda losing Sheik for the Phantom is an example, and when Zelda changed her look from OoT to TP in Brawl, they didn't call her a newcomer named "Darker Zelda" and have her fight alongside OoT Zelda as separate characters.
Toon Link is just as much his own Link, as OoT Zelda is her own Zelda from TP Zelda.
I think it's easy to forget this because of tradition and speculation or whatever it might be, but looking at what we have right now from a Zelda series perspective makes little sense. Even if it was likely from a Smash Bros series perspective.
All I'm expecting is a new Final Smash. If I can't even have that, then I'm giving up on Toon Link.
I can't really blame Toon Link for what happened to him though, he had all of the potential, it was the development team that made him become a poor choice. When I see proof of actual effort going into making Toon Link, I might reconsider my thoughts on him. (Final Smash please?)
 

Morbi

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#68
I just can't help but feel like we're being forced to "settle" with Toon Link. Especially when I see people justifying him with "he's kind of almost different"... And the vast amount of Zelda options makes this especially noticeable IMO.

But if there is a Zelda Newcomer, I won't end up being mad about his inclusion. If there isn't though... I'll be very disappointed, again.


I'm surprised that your favorite Zelda game is one of the few Impa-less ones. :p

But I do agree that Wind Waker is amazing.
One of the most amazing things about Wind Waker is how unique it was from anything else titled "Zelda" at its time.
It's very different from the rest of the series (except its sequels)

So where is that in his moveset? I think they could have done Wind Waker better with another character, but they could have easily made something amazing out of just Toon Link. There are so many missed out options, once again, it's like we're settling for him.
It seems a bit insulting to the Zelda series to have the list of characters be 2 Links, 2 Zeldas, and 1 Captain Falcon, and I think there is a lot of room for improvement.

One thing that would have greatly reduced hate for Toon Link, is if they had just called him Young Link and considered him a veteran. The design upgrade was barely more drastic than Link to Link (or the others), and the moveset changes from game to game have been much more drastic than Young Link to Toon Link. Zelda losing Sheik for the Phantom is an example, and when Zelda changed her look from OoT to TP in Brawl, they didn't call her a newcomer named "Darker Zelda" and have her fight alongside OoT Zelda as separate characters.
Toon Link is just as much his own Link, as OoT Zelda is her own Zelda from TP Zelda.
I think it's easy to forget this because of tradition and speculation or whatever it might be, but looking at what we have right now from a Zelda series perspective makes little sense. Even if it was likely from a Smash Bros series perspective.
All I'm expecting is a new Final Smash. If I can't even have that, then I'm giving up on Toon Link.
I can't really blame Toon Link for what happened to him though, he had all of the potential, it was the development team that made him become a poor choice. When I see proof of actual effort going into making Toon Link, I might reconsider my thoughts on him. (Final Smash please?)
I agree with this sentiment to an extent. Toon Link is objectively different though, his move-set is the same, but his character is vastly different. But I do want a new Final Smash, I also believe that we will get one, he was a (sort of) front-runner for a reason. They are going to put more effort into him this time around.
 
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andimidna

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#70
I agree with this sentiment to an extent. Toon Link is objectively different though, his move-set his the same, but his character is vastly different. But I do want a new Final Smash, I also believe that we will get one, he was a (sort of) front-runner for a reason. They are going to put more effort into him this time around.
Yes, that is a good point too. He was very requested for Brawl, and with the new moves we've been seeing, it's very possible he could start feeling like a separate character to me. I'm just asking for something new... Anything!
How hypocritical.

People rejoice when a female Villager is announced, but when Toon Link is announced people are enraged?

Sigh.
Isn't she just a color swap? (I didn't read the description for that update so I might be wrong)
 

Topplox

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#71
How hypocritical.

People rejoice when a female Villager is announced, but when Toon Link is announced people are enraged?

Sigh.
Dont really see how this is surprising? Female Villager is a skin that effects nothing of the original villager, simply gives you choices of looks that represents the game it comes from.

Toon Link cant be a skin for Link. Their body shapes are too different and would really screw with their hit boxes. Notice how every skin so far, has done little to nothing to change the shape of the previous character.

As stated, Toon Link only gets people upset because he has little reason to be a clone. In brawl, I shrugged it off, because I figured it was something they did near the end because they were running out of time but wanted a few more characters. This time around, he was introduced very early on, so there is no real reason they couldn't of worked on his moves and taken some more inspiration from his game.

At the very least I hope his FS has him jump into the Red Lion and shoot the stage with bombs while you sail in the foreground.
 

Topplox

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#73
Honestly, I am not even mad at his clone status despite the missed opportunity. I will always have a pocket Toon Link.
For me, its just the fact that there is no real reasonable excuse for it, or at least not for this game. It's not like I hate toon link, I will probably play around with him, and I speculate there will probably be some more minor diffrences in his and Link's move sets, since Sakurai put emphasis of them working on characters moves. If Toon Link keeps his running dash, we will at least know their running Dash's will be different this time around. But really who knows, these things can change since they state in directs that things will change in development. (Ex. would be Sonic's intro video showing his D Air hitting megaman like normal and then later actually having a spike effect in the 40 minute direct)

I do think keeping Toon Link was a good idea despite the clonish, status. Ever since Windwaker he has sprung off into several of his own games, pretty much almost becoming his own thing.
 

SadisticPanda

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#75
I don't hate Toon Link. In fact, I love the little guy. I just wished that they had moved on from Young Link when Brawl was in the making.

But then came Toon Link.

You think that they could've made room for a more creative character instead of the protagonist of LoZ being re-made into a cartonned version. Come on, this time around they should've added Ghirahim or something. With the limited amount of characters per franchise is obviously bigger than before, but not by much, they won't have room for a LoZ newcomer if Ganondorf is set to return, due to Zelda and Sheik being seperated now. This was my biggest disappointment with Toon Link. That slot could have been more useful if Toon Link hadn't returned.

But why is Toon Link still here when Young Link was in one installment? 'Classic Link' could've been an idea for a newcomer, using the character model from A Link Between Worlds. This is just a suggestion though.
 
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#76
I feel that they are probably going to do something interesting with Toon Link (and Link) when it comes to their costumizable moveset. Perhaps you may have a selection of various items the two Link's could use from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, but really, I can just settle with the option to get the Hurricane Spin, elemental arrows and Bomb-Chu. So I'd rather wait until we hear more about this moveset costumization thing.

Also, Toon Link is no more guilty of "stealing" a character slot than Sheik is at this point. (But using a certain character as a scapegoat in general is pretty low imo) Besides, I think the series is deserving just fine of a sixth character if that's Sakurai's new limit in terms of series representation. Besides, it's not like there are really many recurring and important Zelda characters left besides Ganon and I guess Impa.
 
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GunGunW

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#77
The Wind Waker version of Link is probably my favorite one, and he was better than the Twilight Princess version in Brawl so I hold no negative feelings toward him.

I feel that they are probably going to do something interesting with Toon Link (and Link) when it comes to their costumizable moveset. Perhaps you may have a selection of various items the two Link could use from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, but really, I can just settle with the option to get the Hurricane Spin, elemental arrows and Bomb-Chu. So I'd rather wait until we hear more about this moveset costumization thing.

Also, Toon Link is no more guilty of "stealing" a character slot than Sheik is at this point. (But using a certain character as a scapegoat in general is pretty low imo) Besides, I think the series is deserving just fine of a sixth character if that's Sakurai's new limit in terms of series representation. Besides, it's not like there are really many recurring and important Zelda characters left besides Ganon and I guess Impa.
I also like that idea of them having different customizable move sets. I also feel if they're gonna add a new Zelda rep it should be someone from his version of Zelda.
 

Morbi

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#78
I don't hate Toon Link. In fact, I love the little guy. I just wished that they had moved on from Young Link when Brawl was in the making.

But then came Toon Link.

You think that they could've made room for a more creative character instead of the protagonist of LoZ being re-made into a cartonned version. Come on, this time around they should've added Ghirahim or something. With the limited amount of characters per franchise is obviously bigger than before, but not by much, they won't have room for a LoZ newcomer if Ganondorf is set to return, due to Zelda and Sheik being seperated now. This was my biggest disappointment with Toon Link. That slot could have been more useful if Toon Link hadn't returned.

But why is Toon Link still here when Young Link was in one installment? 'Classic Link' could've been an idea for a newcomer, using the character model from A Link Between Worlds. This is just a suggestion though.
The inherent problem is that Toon Link is actually more prominent than Adult Link; however, it would be odd for Sakurai to cut Adult Link, but that would be the Link that would be cut on a solely merit based perspective. Adult Link was a relatively new concept when Smash was conceived. OoT really popularized the notion and we have had Adult Link in almost every home console entry since though. So really; it does make sense to have both, they are two sides of the same coin. Toon Link's slot isn't even worth that much to be perfectly honest.
 

Kenith

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#79
Why do people say he has little reason to be a clone? That was the point of including him.

Sakurai said there needs to be a child Link, which I agree with to an extent. However, Twilight Princess's Link was more popular, prominent, and was much easier to base off the previous Link's moveset.
 
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#80
I think I've heard that at some point Sakurai stated that he intended to include a child Link in Smash 64 but he wasn't aware of the existence of the younger Link when he decided to base Link off the design of Ocarina of Time, or something along those lines, hence we got Adult Link as a playable character instead in Smash 64. I guess Sakurai kinda felt compelled to keep the Adult Link due to his rising popularity but still also have the child Link around as he originally intended. Hence why he stated that the child Link is important to him. And why we still have both the child and adult Link to this day.
 
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