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I'll be attending a couple of Smash 4 tourneys around Scotland soon so I'll hopefully be able to get footage of myself and post it here. I would consider myself quite good with Toon Link after all.
Planning on going to Glasgow maybe this Saturday and then Aberdeeen around December 13th. Huge tournament happening in April next year as well for Smash 4 so you'll definitely see something from me there.
I got 6th out of 50 at my first tourney ever. I lost in the quarter finals. It wasn't a major tourney though, it was a Reddit Tourney and it had customs on, which threw me off, but hey not too shabby for my first tourney.
I got 6th out of 50 at my first tourney ever. I lost in the quarter finals. It wasn't a major tourney though, it was a Reddit Tourney and it had customs on, which threw me off, but hey not too shabby for my first tourney.
Good job for your first time! If I were to go to a tourney I doubt I would make it past the first round. But then again, if it was really minor, I might get fairly far.
So how important was BLC? I use Mega Man and Charizard but since I have 6 years experience with TL I decided to continue using him as well and personally I think he's got great potential still and that Throw end lag cancel thing is exciting to practice with but was this BLC really good?
I won the first 3DS tourney here with Toon Link (and Diddy in one round) and also a weekly. That was in 1.0.3. The next one is in December 6th and it's wii U. Aiming to win that too
Now that I've been made the owner of this thread, someone let me know if you come up with a better title than the one I did. I thought about it for a while and just can't think of anything, but I think the titles for our stickied threads are a bit repetitive.
So how important was BLC? I use Mega Man and Charizard but since I have 6 years experience with TL I decided to continue using him as well and personally I think he's got great potential still and that Throw end lag cancel thing is exciting to practice with but was this BLC really good?
Toon Link has horrendous landing lag on his moves which BLC helped loads with, and BLC could also be used to cancel hit stun, so it was really good. Without BLC it's often way too dangerous for TL to be aggressive since the lag on his moves is just way too punishable, and his combo ability is badly hurt without it.
I finally got to play smash 4 over the weekend. I don't care what anyone says, Toon is legit in this game. The combination of airdodging being nerfed, added hitstun, and way less lag on boomerang makes his spam game ridiculously easy. And killing is super easy now too with that same higher stun spam comboing into U-airs for days and Fair, and in a pinch there's the always reliable B-throw, not to mention that U-smash has no sourspot behind him any more. I'll put it this way, Toon may be about the same as he was in Brawl if you just compare the characters, and heck, he might even be worse in smash 4, but once you factor in the changes made to the game itself, Toon becomes a whole lot better. I will tentatively say that Toon is very underrated at this point.
I suppose it's best I never experienced BLC, because like Fox here, I feel like Toon Link is great in this game and has amazing string potential because his moves are even more fluid together than before
I've fooled some people in my local tournament today with throwing bombs downward midair and then dair-ing into them while they were stunned by the hit. No one expects the bombs!!!!
I've fooled some people in my local tournament today with throwing bombs downward midair and then dair-ing into them while they were stunned by the hit. No one expects the bombs!!!!
I went up against some dittos online who did that, and since I usually just troll with ^bomb when I'm against someone with great vertical coverage I just dodged the bomb and punished. Doesn't seem safe at all o.o
Am I the only one getting great reads on Fair against aerial approach? I could make a compilation video just going against Marth... Toon Link has a heck of a lot of answers to a wide variety of approaches, so even if his aggressive game is trash without BLC, I find him brilliant on the defensive.
Toon is certainly underated @Fox Is Openly Deceptive
I've been beating a lot of high tiers in offline locals. It's a shame the Toon Link community has yet to have had a really good player noticed yet and unfortunately for myself the UK scene is never really looked up at all. Apparantely my friend who is a Yoshi main was considered top 10 in the UK the other day yet I beat him consistently. I just wonder what this can mean for me and Toon Link in general.
Toon is certainly underated @Fox Is Openly Deceptive
I've been beating a lot of high tiers in offline locals. It's a shame the Toon Link community has yet to have had a really good player noticed yet and unfortunately for myself the UK scene is never really looked up at all. Apparantely my friend who is a Yoshi main was considered top 10 in the UK the other day yet I beat him consistently. I just wonder what this can mean for me and Toon Link in general.
I consider Lunchables a fairly skilled Toon Link player, especially in PM (beat Sethlon, proudest moment :D). He's been playing Tink less in Sm4sh since the BLC nerf though.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to hit up a local Tournament due to my location in the States, but I've had a decent 80% win rate in For Glory for what it's worth (worthless) and only using Tink. Tink might not have a good offensive arsenal, but I don't think that's the way he's intended to be played anyway. If you possess match-up knowledge and a skill in reading / predicting your opponent, Tink has a HUGE variety of answers to an equal amount of approaches / situations. You're supposed to react to and punish your opponent to make up for his horrendous lag time, and that's what I love about him -- he forces me to improve in this area as opposed to whipping out AT skill, and while ATs are brilliant additions to a character, memorizing ATs alone won't make you a skilled player at this game. That's why I think Tink still holds up, in the right hands.
But that's just my two cents. Can we talk about the Dsmash sweet spot? It's like insta-death against Little Mac xD
I'm confused. Was BLC removed? I'm just trying to get into the ATs.
A lot of people here say he sucks but does he really? I see people win plenty of fighting games with characters aren't top tier. If only the top characters were viable you would see nothing but dittos.
I'm confused. Was BLC removed? I'm just trying to get into the ATs.
A lot of people here say he sucks but does he really? I see people win plenty of fighting games with characters aren't top tier. If only the top characters were viable you would see nothing but dittos.
Toon Link certainly doesn't "suck." It's just that he was much better with BLC than without. His approach options are poor and the active frames on alot of his attacks suck. He does need a buff, but still a decent character.
His approach options are fine IMO. He has a good rush down with projectiles now especially on bombs and his nair is still god like. Even with landing lag it's super fast. Very underated move on Toon Link is his Nair and always has been since Smash 4 release.
His approach options are fine IMO. He has a good rush down with projectiles now especially on bombs and his nair is still god like. Even with landing lag it's super fast. Very underated move on Toon Link is his Nair and always has been since Smash 4 release.
I'll admit JC throw does provide for some good follow-ups on approach, especially a Fair on the edge of the stage if the bomb hits -- guaranteed KO with 100%+ (depending on the character). It looks like his safest approach, correct me if I'm wrong. Also if you time it right, if they shield the bomb and you grab out of JC throw, you can Dthrow them into the bomb without receiving damage. It looks frame-perfect though.
Also, if you can read your opponent's going to jump or attack when recovering from the ledge, is running off > jump > Bair a viable option? I've gotten a LOT of kills with it, but those may have been scrubs... or people thinking I messed up? :/
I'll admit JC throw does provide for some good follow-ups on approach, especially a Fair on the edge of the stage if the bomb hits -- guaranteed KO with 100%+ (depending on the character). It looks like his safest approach, correct me if I'm wrong. Also if you time it right, if they shield the bomb and you grab out of JC throw, you can Dthrow them into the bomb without receiving damage. It looks frame-perfect though.
Also, if you can read your opponent's going to jump or attack when recovering from the ledge, is running off > jump > Bair a viable option? I've gotten a LOT of kills with it, but those may have been scrubs... or people thinking I messed up? :/
"I'll admit JC throw does provide for some good follow-ups on approach, especially a Fair on the edge of the stage if the bomb hits -- guaranteed KO with 100%+ (depending on the character). It looks like his safest approach, correct me if I'm wrong. Also if you time it right, if they shield the bomb and you grab out of JC throw, you can Dthrow them into the bomb without receiving damage. It looks frame-perfect though."
Can you explain that? I figured out JC is jump cancel. Not sure how that works or how its applicable. Can you explain how to do this? Thanks!
"I'll admit JC throw does provide for some good follow-ups on approach, especially a Fair on the edge of the stage if the bomb hits -- guaranteed KO with 100%+ (depending on the character). It looks like his safest approach, correct me if I'm wrong. Also if you time it right, if they shield the bomb and you grab out of JC throw, you can Dthrow them into the bomb without receiving damage. It looks frame-perfect though."
Can you explain that? I figured out JC is jump cancel. Not sure how that works or how its applicable. Can you explain how to do this? Thanks!
RAR = Reverse aerial rush. A common example of this would be running, then jumpng and doing a bair in the direction you were running in.
JC bomb throw (often called JCBT) is when you press the jump button then immediately press a button to throw the bomb you're holding while you're running. If you did it right you'll throw the bomb while on the ground, and will have less ending lag from the throw than usual. An easy way to see if you did it right is that you'll be able to chase the bomb after throwing it and blow yourself up.
"I'll admit JC throw does provide for some good follow-ups on approach, especially a Fair on the edge of the stage if the bomb hits -- guaranteed KO with 100%+ (depending on the character). It looks like his safest approach, correct me if I'm wrong. Also if you time it right, if they shield the bomb and you grab out of JC throw, you can Dthrow them into the bomb without receiving damage. It looks frame-perfect though."
Can you explain that? I figured out JC is jump cancel. Not sure how that works or how its applicable. Can you explain how to do this? Thanks!
Indeed I can! You are correct, when we say JC throw we mean Jump Cancel Bomb Throw. You perform it by dash > jump > immediate A. If you performed it right, you should throw the bomb, slide across the stage and remove a few frames of ending lag. It's easiest on the DS to flick your thumb horizontally across the X and A buttons, because you could end up actually jumping.
The benefits to this are that you're closer to the opponent to follow up with close-range pressure as well as combo if the bomb hits. As for RAR, it means Reverse Aerial Rush, which is performed by dash > flick pad / stick in opposite direction to turn your character around > immediate jump > Bair, all in quick succession. It's used for approaching / comboing with Bair when it's more useful than Fair, primarily.
Curious, how exactly would you stale the Fair? This is the first I'm hearing of something like that o.o Also is the knockback / damage / range for Bair better than Fair? I'm asking because Fair has been my primary move of choice for anti-air / JC follow-up, mostly because I'm quicker to react not doing the RAR. Oh, and does the "start-up" lag for RAR Bair last longer than short-hop > Fair?
On that topic, the simple fact that all of Tink's aerials kill combined with his projectile control over the ground game is beautiful. Just throwing that out there :3
Kk. I get that. So what's the best way to do the bair if I'm facing my opponent? I run at him, flick the stick the other way and then I'm basically doing a bair the wrong way. I guess I need to flick the stick back and forth really fast?
Kk. I get that. So what's the best way to do the bair if I'm facing my opponent? I run at him, flick the stick the other way and then I'm basically doing a bair the wrong way. I guess I need to flick the stick back and forth really fast?
This should give you a good idea on the inputs needed to perform a RAR. Flicking the stick in the opposite direction will essentially cease your dash, your back will be facing your opponent. You then jump backwards in the direction of your opponent, flick the stick / pad in said direction, and perform a Bair.
pretty sure this will be hard to answer for you all. But how do you guys accurately use the nair? I miss nairs 98% of the time, so I hardly even use them. I just don't know when it's best to use a nair over a bair or fair
pretty sure this will be hard to answer for you all. But how do you guys accurately use the nair? I miss nairs 98% of the time, so I hardly even use them. I just don't know when it's best to use a nair over a bair or fair
I usually nair if I know the opponent is going to end up next to me, but don't know if they'll end up in front of me or behind me. It also works as an approach, though other options are usually better. Zair > nair sometimes works. There are probably other things I'm forgetting.
pretty sure this will be hard to answer for you all. But how do you guys accurately use the nair? I miss nairs 98% of the time, so I hardly even use them. I just don't know when it's best to use a nair over a bair or fair
shorter characters tend to be easier to hit with Nair compared to Fair on the ground, but I'm not sure about RAR Bair. I'll test it out. Admittedly I don't use Nair often either.
Also, if you can read your opponent's going to jump or attack when recovering from the ledge, is running off > jump > Bair a viable option? I've gotten a LOT of kills with it, but those may have been scrubs... or people thinking I messed up? :/
I'd like to add on to this question: what are the best edgeguarding tools in Tink's arsenal? I've seen somebody spike with a bomb throw before so... o.O
Huh.
I am never able to hit a lot of the shorter, grounded characters with fullhop Nair and bair, which is pretty annoying, since both of those moves have quite some lag.
Even with tall characters... I REALLY, REALLY miss Fullhop nair -> zair, that was a super aggresive option in Brawl... in Smash 4, you're forced to do an airdodge after a fullhop nair when you press Z? Kind of annoying.
I'd like to add on to this question: what are the best edgeguarding tools in Tink's arsenal? I've seen somebody spike with a bomb throw before so... o.O
I'm not as qualified as other people to answer your question, but it's been unanswered for quite some time, so...
I would say fair and nair. They both hit with a nice trajectory, and fair is a kill move anyway.
Check with me here - is zair still a nice offstage gimping option? it doesn't have as much lag in the air as it did in Brawl, but all the characters in Smash 4 have nice recoveries, so is it not really too useful anymore?
bair is nice for stage spikes if they hang on the ledge for too long for any reason at all, or if they regrab the ledge. It has quite some lag, so don't fastfall it, and REALLY be careful with it, because it seems like this move could be baited, your opponent could get on stage, and suddenly, YOU'RE the one in the bad position.
Toon doesn't seem as floaty as he was in Brawl? His edge mixup game is still okay though, since has options from a walljump off the stage. He lost the viability of the bair off of a walljump, which kinda sucks, but is okay...
Curious, how exactly would you stale the Fair? This is the first I'm hearing of something like that o.o Also is the knockback / damage / range for Bair better than Fair? I'm asking because Fair has been my primary move of choice for anti-air / JC follow-up, mostly because I'm quicker to react not doing the RAR. Oh, and does the "start-up" lag for RAR Bair last longer than short-hop > Fair?
On that topic, the simple fact that all of Tink's aerials kill combined with his projectile control over the ground game is beautiful. Just throwing that out there :3
Fair does 13% And is a good option over nair sometimes since it's damage output is only a miserable 8% from the front hit. If you're lucky enough to get a double hit though then you're laughing.
Sometimes when fair doesn't kill when you want it to will end up in it becoming stale too. But thankfully we can just wait out with some more projectiles again
Fair does 13% And is a good option over nair sometimes since it's damage output is only a miserable 8% from the front hit. If you're lucky enough to get a double hit though then you're laughing.
Sometimes when fair doesn't kill when you want it to will end up in it becoming stale too. But thankfully we can just wait out with some more projectiles again
Fair does 13% And is a good option over nair sometimes since it's damage output is only a miserable 8% from the front hit. If you're lucky enough to get a double hit though then you're laughing.
Sometimes when fair doesn't kill when you want it to will end up in it becoming stale too. But thankfully we can just wait out with some more projectiles again
Thanks for the answer, I suppose I'll use fair for most reads but I recently tried trolling with Nair in the Jigglypuff matchup, it works surprisingly well! Puff usually attempts an aerial approach at a certain distance when we're zoning, so I'll time it right and rush in for a flying face-stab :3 Nair's low start-up lag is definitely my preferred anti-air for that matchup. I haven't lost to a puff yet.
Huh.
I am never able to hit a lot of the shorter, grounded characters with fullhop Nair and bair, which is pretty annoying, since both of those moves have quite some lag.
Even with tall characters... I REALLY, REALLY miss Fullhop nair -> zair, that was a super aggresive option in Brawl... in Smash 4, you're forced to do an airdodge after a fullhop nair when you press Z? Kind of annoying.
I'm not as qualified as other people to answer your question, but it's been unanswered for quite some time, so...
I would say fair and nair. They both hit with a nice trajectory, and fair is a kill move anyway.
Check with me here - is zair still a nice offstage gimping option? it doesn't have as much lag in the air as it did in Brawl, but all the characters in Smash 4 have nice recoveries, so is it not really too useful anymore?
bair is nice for stage spikes if they hang on the ledge for too long for any reason at all, or if they regrab the ledge. It has quite some lag, so don't fastfall it, and REALLY be careful with it, because it seems like this move could be baited, your opponent could get on stage, and suddenly, YOU'RE the one in the bad position.
Toon doesn't seem as floaty as he was in Brawl? His edge mixup game is still okay though, since has options from a walljump off the stage. He lost the viability of the bair off of a walljump, which kinda sucks, but is okay...
I'll usually use Fair for an offstage chase to try for an early percent kill when they recover horizontally, yeah; it's my primary edgeguarding tool alongside projectiles. I didn't know about the Bair spike though, will definitely try it out sometime.
I did some testing on what Link's Hylian Shield (HS) blocks. As a rule of thumb, it blocks all range attacks (projectiles, lasers, thrown items, etc) but not melee attacks and only if they first hit the HS and not Link. A new buff is indirect explosions (like from Bob-bombs) will be blocked. There are some exceptions:
These items will not be blocked:
Boomerang when returning
Spiky Blue Shell
Beetle
Pow Block
Coocoos are blocked on the first hit but the swarm will target Link afterwards
Soccer Ball
Unira
Spring
Bumper
Pitfall
Freezie
Deku Nut
Hocotate Bomb
Smart Bomb
Gooey Bomb
X Bomb fire (the thrown object will be blocked)
Gust Bellows (thrown object and wind)
Fire Flower (fire and thrown flower)
Lightning
Timer
Superspicy Curry fire
Super and Poison Mushrooms (even when crouching)
Daybreak shots
I don't know what makes some of these special but don't get caught "off guard" in casual play with these items. Keep in mind thrown items will be blocked but not if they're use as melee items (thrown homerun bats blocked but bat hits not, etc). Barrels, rolling crates etc will be blocked.
Character attacks that aren't blockable with HS:
All close range melee attacks (I E NOT range attacks).
All grab type attacks (including sucking moves like Kirby's)
All Zairs
All wind effects, water effects, etc that push but don't damage
All boomerangs when returning cannot be blocked (only when going out)
Luma's sideB Starbits (Luma neutral B shot will be blocked, interestingly)
Bowser Jr's upB explosion (mecha koopas can be blocked by crouching)
DK's down B shockwaves
Zelda's downB phantom will be blocked but it can sword slash after the rush behind Link's HS and hit if fully charged.
ZSS' side B and all whip-like moves (only paralyzer shots can be blocked)
Robin's DownB (grab type)
Fox's Laser
Falco's laser
Pika's DownB Thunder after it touches Pikachu
Charizard's rock smash main rock
Jigglypuff's sing
Villager's Bair (But his Fair and Fsmash can be blocked)
Pikmin throw sideB
Pac Man's fire hydrant
Mega Man's B Blade can keep going through Link's HS and cut his back.
Non special attacks that can be blocked with HS
Villager's Fair and Fsmash. All of Olimar's smashes but Dsmash must be crouch HS blocked. Mega Man's buster shots, Fsmash, Uair, Dair.
Interesting notes:
Falco's shine can be blocked now but his laser can't. Fox/Falco's lasers will not be blocked anymore. Vertical moves like Robin's upB energy waves, sonic's spring up and Pika's thunder can be block if they touch the HS. Explosions will now be blocked (unlike in Brawl). Stars from Yoshi and DDD's ground pond moves can be blocked but to block DDD's Link must crouch. Gordos can be blocked but it's a bad idea because how the bounce, etc. The chips from Charizard's Rock Smash will be blocked but the main rock won't. Flame thrower attacks like Charizard/Bowser's can be blocked but they can angle them so don't bother. Lucario's force palm and aura sphere specials can be blocked but not his smashes. Greninja's water shurikins can be blocked by crouching but a full charge will keep attacking through and hit with the last hit behind Link, as will multi hit attacks like Mega Man's metal blades and Zelda's fully charged Phantom. Crouch to block PK Fire. ZSS' Dsmash will not be blocked.
HS will only block while Link is walking, standing still and crouching without an item (bomb) in hand. If Link is in 'off balance' animation at a ledge HS won't block.
PS I've only unlocked Falco so other secret characters were not tested.
So, most of you Toon Links MAY know about this, but if you DON'T, Toon Link has an interesting trick where if you Down Smash (D-Smash), and only connect on the 1st hit of it, it will send your opponent FLYING behind you! This being most useful near the ledge, and when you are getting back on-stage! How I do the trick is I get onto the ledge, and do a normal get-up, hoping their attempted punish will miss, then I go for the Down Smash, knowing that if I DON'T get the trick to send them flying, I can at least send them off-stage and try to rack up damage with projectiles OR keep them off-stage with aerials. Also, there are characters that when hit by this, there is no chance of them recovering (ZSS, Little Mac, Mario), but also, there are characters that have a slight chance to recover, (Mega Man, Sonic, Wii Fit, etc.), so what I do is throw a boomerang downward, hoping to hit them and mess with their Forward Momentum (As you can see in the Mega-Man clips!), and lastly, there are characters that will most likely be able to recover even if hit by this (Villager, Pit/Dark Pit, DHD, etc.), so play around with different characters, but I feel that the ones with the "worst" recoveries are the best to do it on! I will update this thread as time goes on with Characters it works on/doesn't work on/what strategies to use for it/etc. Here are some examples of me implementing the, "Drown-Smash!" (That's my little nickname for it! )
So, most of you Toon Links MAY know about this, but if you DON'T, Toon Link has an interesting trick where if you Down Smash (D-Smash), and only connect on the 1st hit of it, it will send your opponent FLYING behind you! This being most useful near the ledge, and when you are getting back on-stage! How I do the trick is I get onto the ledge, and do a normal get-up, hoping their attempted punish will miss, then I go for the Down Smash, knowing that if I DON'T get the trick to send them flying, I can at least send them off-stage and try to rack up damage with projectiles OR keep them off-stage with aerials. Also, there are characters that when hit by this, there is no chance of them recovering (ZSS, Little Mac, Mario), but also, there are characters that have a slight chance to recover, (Mega Man, Sonic, Wii Fit, etc.), so what I do is throw a boomerang downward, hoping to hit them and mess with their Forward Momentum (As you can see in the Mega-Man clips!), and lastly, there are characters that will most likely be able to recover even if hit by this (Villager, Pit/Dark Pit, DHD, etc.), so play around with different characters, but I feel that the ones with the "worst" recoveries are the best to do it on! I will update this thread as time goes on with Characters it works on/doesn't work on/what strategies to use for it/etc. Here are some examples of me implementing the, "Drown-Smash!" (That's my little nickname for it! )
