To address Hero's concerns.

Leaf_It

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 17, 2015
Messages
48
#1
Southern Australia has banned Hero, and as I'm sure most of you are aware, many more are asking for it to happen elsewhere. What I want to know is, what are the minimum changes that can be made to address the concerns people have for this character? Sakurai is not just going to rework him entirely, that's never happened in any smash game, and he'll likely just ignore us if that's the solution put forth. For those that like Hero, and don't think he needs to be banned, that's fine, but this thread's purpose is to explore what could be changed to please most of the naysayers.

The first thing I want to say here is, Sakurai isn't going to outright remove anything, no matter how much some of you may want him to.

Lets go over the big issues I've seen recently online:
• Language barrier: When in Tournament with players from other countries, they will not be able to read the spell selection if they cannot read the same language.
• Random Critical hits: The ~10% chance that any smash/tilt/jab/ariel will deal 1.5% more damage+knock back than usual.
• Kamikaze/Magic Burst edge guards: Both Kamikaze and Magic Burst can be searched when the opponent is off stage, and guarantee a kill if they are above ~40%.
• Whack/Thwack: These spells have a chance to instantly kill at any percentage, though the chances are lower, depending on how low your percent is.
• Hocus Pocus: The (extremely low) chance to pull out an invulnerability star, giant mushroom, or invisibility, giving a huge advantage for the next 10 seconds.
• General RNG aspect of Hero's design: Mostly directed at the random selection of spells on Down special, but also about his random critical hits.

With these 6 issues (yes there are more but I will be focusing on these for now) laid out, I'm going to present my potntial solutions for each of these.

Language Barrier. Each spell should have a symbol created specifically for it. The spells will still be spelled out, but the symbols will be the same no matter the language, so someone from japan playing with an English player will still know what spells are being used. This will also make it easier to see what spell the hero is using at a glance, without needing to read anything, which will make it easier for children who haven't learned how to read yet. After looking around, I'm not the first to think of this, which is good, because it means Sakurai himself might think of it on his own, and implement it.

Random Critical hits. My solution is to keep knock back the same regardless of critical hits. The Critical hit will add the damage, but the player hit will fly as though they had not been hit by a critical hit. The random chance stays in, but it doesn't randomly end stocks immediately. Again, as I said above, the critical hits have to stay, or the solution will never be accepted.

Kamikaze edge guards. The only major change that I think needs to be made, is that it ignores shield. Stop it from ignoring shield, and it's fine. Sure it will almost definitely break the shield, and Hero can try to quickly run up with his new stock and get a free forward smash, but it lets the opponent have a have a chance. It is a guaranteed loss of hero's stock, so it needs to be powerful. In many ways, it is the same as Ganon side special when off stage, and there are several other characters that have a similar mechanic on one of their specials, or on back throw next to ledge.

Magic Burst edge guards. My solution is to slow the start up time after choosing the spell before it actually comes out, and increase the speed at which the blast hits, expands, and ends. Make it a riskier option, that requires timing. If you use it too soon, you have lost all MP, and can be easily punished without a recovery, if you use it too late, the opponent has more opportunity to hit you out of it. Some general information of how Magic Burst works; Magic Burst will be canceled if hero is hit while doing it, and this will cost him all MP no matter what, so if your character has a projectile, you can prevent this, but if you don't have anything to fire off at hero, then you are out of luck. Magic Burst covers a large area, the size of which is affected by Hero's current MP, and the damage is affected by his current damage percentage. It is a lingering hitbox similar to the Smart Bomb item. The lingering hitbox is what makes this so harsh, if it is well timed, you won't be able to delay long enough, or recover soon enough to avoid getting hit by it, and ledge invulnerability doesn't last long enough to save you unless Hero has very low MP. Magic Burst does not ignore shield, but it hits so many times that unless Hero has low MP, and/or you have a full sheild, it will break it, and you will get hit, though not as much as you otherwise would.

Whack/Thwack. My solution is make it a bit like Zelda's Final Smash. Zelda's Final Smash, for those that don't know, sucks you into a Tri-force black hole, dealing damage similar to Magic Burst, and then if you are above 120% at the end, it instantly kills you. (I think it's 120%, I could be wrong, whatever % it is, the point is that it only kills if you exceed that Percentage.) So, Let Whack/Thwack deal an amount of damage, and if it puts you above 130%, then it will instantly kill, otherwise give it forward tilt knock back. They will still keep their chances to whiff, dealing 2% damage, and ~Falco lazer flinching. This allows it to be balanced further by how much damage it deals, and by how high your percentage needs to be, for it to kill instantly. Lets initially put Whack at 35% damage in 1v1, and Thwack at 50% in a 1v1. Those are still big numbers, but remember that they have a higher chance to whiff, the lower your percentage is, and remember that they need to represent the spell from Dragon quest, where they will instantly kill. The Reason I have chosen to add the forward tilt knock back when it doesn't kill, is because it is still dealing a lot of damage, and it should feel like it has something behind that damage when it isn't instantly killing anyone.

Hocus Pocus. I'm going to be honest here, I don't have a solution here, because I don't think that this one is nearly as big of an issue as it has been made out to be. Hocus Pocus has the lowest chance of any spell to appear, and then the chances of pulling the 3 actually powerful effects (invulnerability star, giant mushroom, or invisibility) are around 6%. Invulnerability star is the same as when anyone respawns, but lasts 10 seconds instead of 2. Giant Mushroom slows Hero down, making it easier to avoid him, and slowing his already slow normals even more. Invisibility still shows particle effects from Oomph, Phyche Up, Bounce, Accelerate, charging neutral special, and any kind of movement, making it possible to have a general idea of where they are at almost all times. Just camp them out in the same way you would someone who was was at 0%, when you are at 200%+, and literally anything will kill you.

General RNG aspect of Hero's design. Honestly I think the main issue that people have with this is that the good things Hero can get from his RNG are REALLY good. Instantly killing with Whack. Getting a Giant mushroom and guaranteeing a kill from forward smash. Undodgeable edge guards with Magic Burst. Getting a Critical hit on a smash attack. All of this will be alleviated to some degree with the above suggestions are implemented. Game & Watch's Judge hammer isn't getting him banned. Luigi Misfire (which is almost identical to random Crits) isn't getting him banned either. Tone back the really powerful stuff, and everyone will be more willing to accept the Hero's more average RNG.

--------

Is there anything you think I'm wrong about, or could be better implemented? Lets talk about it. Feel free to give any feedback you have.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
411
Location
Maine
#2
The only thing I actually agree on with this ban is the language barrier and agree a symbol implementation could help as well as make the menu, theoretically, more easy to actually use both beginner player and experienced alike. As it is, the menu is super difficult to use in higher level play.

My take on this character is this: While everyone is barking up the 'RNG' train, no one is actually breaking the character down to a logical level. Everyone is tunnel visioned on one aspect but not even realizing the obvious. Hero...is not that great. Ignore his spell menu for a few moments and just look at the rest of his relatively lackluster kit. He's only average speed both in walk/run, at best. His air mobility isn't super hot but tolerable. NOTHING this character does is safe outside of Up-B out of shield. Even perfectly spaced moves allow opponents to get a punish. I drifted back aired someone who blocked it, I was at the furthest I could be and still hit...and they could drop shield, run up and hit me with just about anything.

His recovery is quite predictable and is marginally usable as his only real 'get off me' move. It's, from my experience playing him, his ONLY out of shield option that won't get him totally obliterated. Both his neutral and F specials are mana intensive, telegraphed and relatively easy to avoid and useless on block (Really, only his fully charged fireball can be 'followed up' on and even then only if blocked due to how long he remains in his pose). Whiff any of these and you are generally getting a hit to the face, or worse.

None of his smashes are safe. His Up Smash is also one of the absolute 'perfect' hit boxes I've ever seen the Smash team create. If you don't hit with the blade, you get NOTHING. No forgiveness like other swordies who have a bit of leeway. You're lucky if you're landing ANY Smashes to even TRY to reap a 10% crit chance. His smashes are pure read tools and nothing else. I'm serious. It's like they knew his crits were nutty and thus you aren't safe at all when using them.

He has virtually no combo game that I can discern. The best I get is down throw into fair and that's only if they don't actually DI or react otherwise due to how slow his fair is to come out. Most everything he does resets back to neutral...which is where he actually struggles a LOT. He struggles PERIOD to begin with, so yeah...

Getting into his specials...Yeah, some of them are stupid. I'm not even going to get into Thwack and Whack much because I feel it's merely crocodile tears and salt at this point. Both moves are slow. They can be blocked. They're not all THAT common and you can't ever really set up for them other than possibly edge guarding. I'd argue these moves would be beyond insane if Hero could 'store' whatever special he selected to use when he inputs his down special a second time. In fact, this character WOULD be broken if he could do that at all. Storing whatever essential spell, or even any extra spell, would be insane.

But he can't.

The insta kill moves are a literal gimmick. I just don't see them being that impacting in greater competition. Will they happen once in a while? Of course. I struggle to ever fathom a time where a grand finals is won by Thwack or Whack. It could happen but it will no way be a norm. I'd be surprised to even see Hero MAKE it to a Grand Finals outside of silly mirror matches, if people were so inclined to do so.

Hocus Pocus? I won't ever comprehend how this move has so much backing as the 'icing on the ban cake'. It's his RAREST spell from what I've gathered and he has WAY more chances to harm himself than actually net any benefit from it. In any serious competition, this move, at best, is a YOLO move. No serious player would select it over virtually any other spell in his deck. Why spend your precious MP on literal dice rolling,? Why waste your rare opportunity to open your spell menu to begin with on chance as opposed to a guaranteed effect (As in, any other spell). Again as with Thwack/Whack, the times this move happens will likely be more hype than anything else because the odds of anything beneficial happening is just so low. Seriously, the best thing that could happen is he gets Super Star. People think him getting Super Shroom is GOOD!? He's already juggle bait, slow as sin and now his spells won't hit properly due to his size! It's an actual DETRIMENT to him! Lord help him if he gets Poison Shroom.

All the banning attempts (And now a successful one) when the character hasn't even had a CHANCE in the Meta? That's...not good, guys. The best argument is the language barrier. I'd even have AGREED that it'd be credible enough to ban him from majors that had international participants as it makes it difficult for everyone to figure out what he might be using for a spell (Even if getting to use those spells really won't be happening often due to just how poorly he does keeping ANYONE off of himself long enough to do so). It's, however, the cries for everything else mixed in with a legit issue. I feel the rest of this is a true NON issue for competitive Smash. I'm legit struggling to find a single MU that is ACTUALLY in Hero's favor or even EVEN. Yeah, I got one...he actually can be Little Mac but who can't? (Yet even a solid Little Mac is just going to chew through Hero once he gets close because Hero just can't stop people from doing things like everyone else).

I'm hoping if a patch hits soon to fix the language thing, this ban gets reversed everywhere that may have prematurely initiated one. If he begins romping tournaments, I'll gladly eat crow. He's painfully average with a unique gimmick that has people freaking out over 'What ifs' as opposed to allowing him to TRY. Yet Brawl MK and Smash 4 Cloud/Bayo are A-OK despite being borderline game breaking. The latter two killing Smash 4 interest in my area promptly after due to how abundant and simply boring they were.

Magic Burst and Kamakazi are rare specials. They also are incredibly lop sided. These moves don't always inherently benefit Hero. Magic Burst, I'd agree, is likely the worst offender as an edge guard attack but I'd also be so kind to Hero and say it's really his BEST and ALMOST only option...it is, for sure, his only SAFE option. If an opponent baits this and gets back (Which isn't unreasonable), Hero is now powerless until he gets mana or dies. That's pretty bad trade off. The theory crafters also always assume Hero has full MP when he uses this move. It's quite bad when he has little MP. So if he even manages to ROLL the move when menu surfing as his opponent is on their way back to stage, he better have a decent MP pool or it's not going to be all that great AND now he's without mana when he'd probably be better off trying to read their get up with Neutral or F special.

Kamakazi is just a bad move. Yeah, it's the only spell he has that isn't blockable. However it's only useful if he manages to get a stock ahead. If he isn't in the lead, he's breaking even. Hero cannot afford to 'break even'. It's especially stupid to use the move if he happens to have low damage and this was his choice of an edge guard. It's use is super situational and, frankly, I see it going off on accident WAY more than being used on purpose.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
411
Location
Maine
#3
Dang it, the rest of my post got cut. Son of a-

Continuing from Kamakazi: In regards to making it blockable...it would destroy any use the spell has. It'd be absolutely worthless. Here, let me kill myself why you shield. Even if it BROKE shield, by the time he gets back to stage to hit you it'd be the same result as if he'd been ignoring shield anyway. It's a moot change.

In the end, Hero is just a borderline average character with a flavorful gimmick that is nothing that we've seen before. Yet he is on blast for no reason. The only argument I'm seeing that I actually agree with is the language thing. Some form of universal spell recognition would be useful and probably make using the move easier...which, ironically, could make him BETTER and thus more relevant. It's easier to see what spell by a simple symbol as opposed to reading. Spell Menu would be LOADS easier.

Yet I feel that legit complaint is over shadowed by salt and crocodile tears, layered in theorycraft. The character hasn't even had a chance to MAKE his showing, if he'll even get one at all with how generally outclassed he is. His MU spread from my time with him is abysmal. Anyone in the top or high tiers and even many in mid are going to straight up beat Hero. I really can't think of a MU that's in his favor outside of obligatory Little Mac (Yet even a skill Mac is going to wail on Hero with the right patience and proper pressure).

When we had the likes of Brawl MK, we all let him roam free in the end. In Smash 4 we had Cloud and Bayo nearly stagnate the scene (My local scene just DIED after these two became obligatory picks). Hero comes along and people are a little too spooked over nothing. Instead of letting him settle in and see how he ACTUALLY does in the Meta, people just want to lock him up...over...THEORIES! WHAT IFS.

So...yeah, fix the language barrier issue and unban this character. That's the only legitimate reason he 'should' be shelved for now. Yet I feel even that is a bit of a stretch.
 

Koopaul

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
2,147
#4
Will they happen once in a while? Of course. I struggle to ever fathom a time where a grand finals is won by Thwack or Whack. It could happen but it will no way be a norm.
I think it's just that nobody want to be the one who loses to that. It'll be extremely rare, but it will happen once in a blue moon. And when it does, that person who lost to it will probably feel cheated.

Hero needs improvement as a regular fighter. His regular non-RNG moves need major buffs while his RNG elements should get some nerfs. I think that would make a bunch of people feel better about him from both sides of the discussion. Hero will improve as a fighter by not having RNG as a crutch. And the people who are scared of being that unlucky guy who lost to a Thwack, will feel a little better knowing that spell is even more rare.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
411
Location
Maine
#5
I think it's just that nobody want to be the one who loses to that. It'll be extremely rare, but it will happen once in a blue moon. And when it does, that person who lost to it will probably feel cheated.

Hero needs improvement as a regular fighter. His regular non-RNG moves need major buffs while his RNG elements should get some nerfs. I think that would make a bunch of people feel better about him from both sides of the discussion. Hero will improve as a fighter by not having RNG as a crutch. And the people who are scared of being that unlucky guy who lost to a Thwack, will feel a little better knowing that spell is even more rare.
I mean, did anyone like to lose or see people lose to Bayo slide kick to off the top through a large portion of Smash 4? Not particularly. The major difference is Hero doing anything like that is going to be very, very rare. I'm sure people felt cheated dealing with Bayo ladders or Witch Time. People feel cheated being wobbled by icies in melee. People feel cheated when Lucario kills due to aura/rage. People feel cheated when a 9 Judge happens. People feel cheated when a Bomb-omb is plucked. People feel cheated when People feel cheated whenever anything doesn't go their way in Smash (or any fighting game).

As Hero is now, you can't 'change' him without taking the character completely back to the drawing board which then defeats the purpose of his design and even now his design isn't 'bad' in the context of being thematic. He's just bad as a competitive character because he simply isn't good. I like him as he is, tbh. I don't think he needs to be redesigned to be more generic or more like Robin had a baby with Link.

I dunno. I still say actually let the character do his thing before knee jerk banning all because of 'feels bad man' moments that are going to happen in Smash regardless. Hero simply isn't going to cause as many as people might think outside of online or couch play. I just can't fathom people playing competitively to fall over and over and over to Hero while screaming RNG is their excuse for losing.

But if it'd stop the bellyaching, just make Thwack/Whack more uncommon on his menu.
 

Leaf_It

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 17, 2015
Messages
48
#6
Well you said a lot, and I'm not going to try and address all of it.

I don't think that Hero should be banned. I think it's an overreaction, and I don't expect it to last very long at all.

Hero's normals are mostly bad. He really does need a buff to his landing lag on aerials. You are absolutely right about this aspect of Hero... But no one cares. They should care, and it's not fair, but no one cares about that. No one wants to loose a match because of a gimmick they hate. It's a big part of the reason Olimar gets so much hate. I saw talk about Southern Australia's ban being implemented after a prominent player lost a set, because of Whack/Thwack, and complained to the hosts. In a game where someone dies to thwack, it doesn't matter to them what the odds are. They could be 1 in 1,000,000, and it wouldn't change a thing. All that matters is that it killed when nothing else could have, and they will be unhappy.

Regarding combos, his up air can combo in things. Use falling upair. That's his best combo starter.

Critical hits... Smash attacks will hit, no matter how slow they are. Reads, spacing, mistakes... Smash attacks will hit, and in more situations than Whack or Thwack, this will give a kill far sooner than anything else could have. Forward Smash will kill from center stage with a crit at 50% on anyone that isn't a heavy weight. Up smash at 65%. I don't know Down Smash's Crit kill %. My solution prevents the knock back that would have killed. The added damage will still make the opponent easier to kill, but it will give them a chance, and move the blame onto the attack that kills. It sounds like a pretty decent compromise to me.

Kamikaze no longer ignoring shield... Honestly I don't think Kamikaze really needs the nerf, but I also don't think it will hurt the move significantly. The best time to guarantee kamikaze will hit your opponent, is when your opponent is recovering. They can't shield when they are recovering, so it's best use scenario isn't affected. Also, breaking even is great if the opponent has a large % lead.

Magic Burst edge guard... You agree that this is a potentially broken aspect. My suggested changes don't change the damage out put, or the area it covers at all. They only make it easier to whiff. The start up time is a nerf, but what I don't mention is that by making it happen faster, it's also better in some ways, because it lets you move sooner after doing it, and if they aren't expecting it, they'll have less time to get out of the area. My goal was to weaken it in specifically in the situation where it is used as a edge guard. My solution isn't perfect, and I'm open to suggestions.

I agree about Hocus Pocus. It's fine, and it doesn't instantly kill like Thwack, or Magic Burst edge guard.
 

link2702

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
2,697
Location
Oklahoma
#7
Idk if it’d be considered a full overhaul but...

Make hero similar to a mii fighter, in that down special is customizable.

Basically you can choose what version of hero you want on his character select similar to selecting your mii. Vanilla hero as he currently is, or custom one.

When you use a custom hero certain things are (obviously) different, instead of 21 moves, you’re limited to just 8(maybe 12) so since hero only has 4 at one time, you’d need to cycle between pages if you don’t have the setup you want still, BUT, they’d always appear in the same order, and on the same spot on the menu, this ensures that both hero and his opponent always know what options he has, and the community can settle on an appropriate loadout.

When using custom hero, his mana recharges passively slightly faster, and gains more from hitting opponents with his normal moves, and as long as hero has at least one mp, he can always use his lvl 1 up special. Drawback is some specials might use more mana. He’d also no longer have a random negative effect happen to him on certain specials


Now for universal changes...

All his smashes do waaaaay less dmg and knockback even if they crit, but he has less startup and end lag. Same with his fair and bair.(obviously minus the crit part), also they’d have less landing lag.

His side special and neutral special do a lot less damage and knockback but charge a little faster.


These changes would still allow him to have random crits on smashes, but wouldn’t make em so ridiculously strong, and his smashes would be safer overall. He’d still have more moves than any other character in game with his down special, but it’d completely eliminate the random aspect while still letting the rng heavy version to exist Outside tournaments, he’d no longer have to worry about getting a random negative effect, and with the speed changes to aerials he’d be able to pressure others with em a bit better.
 

Sebas22

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
317
#8
Give every RPG character in the game random critical smash attacks. However, they're just for visual effect, like when Falcon Punch connects in a 1v1. There's no extra damage or knockback attached to it. It's simply a fun reference to the corresponding franchise. Would love to see the "Smaaaaaaash!" when playing as Lucas.

Anyway, that's what I would change from Hero. It's the only really unfair thing about him. People keep repeating "If you get hit by a smash attack, you deserved it. The crits don't matter" over and over and over. Sometimes, you just know that you could've survived the attack if it wasn't extra powered by luck. Guess the "Don't get hit, bro" meme must be funny to them.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
411
Location
Maine
#9
Well you said a lot, and I'm not going to try and address all of it.


Hero's normals are mostly bad. He really does need a buff to his landing lag on aerials. You are absolutely right about this aspect of Hero... But no one cares. They should care, and it's not fair, but no one cares about that. No one wants to loose a match because of a gimmick they hate. It's a big part of the reason Olimar gets so much hate. I saw talk about Southern Australia's ban being implemented after a prominent player lost a set, because of Whack/Thwack, and complained to the hosts. In a game where someone dies to thwack, it doesn't matter to them what the odds are. They could be 1 in 1,000,000, and it wouldn't change a thing. All that matters is that it killed when nothing else could have, and they will be unhappy.
That will happen but is going to be an outlier. If people are this upset then just nerf the chances of Thwack/Whack. It's a hail mary move that shouldn't even be used in a serious match due to there being way better options.

Regarding combos, his up air can combo in things. Use falling upair. That's his best combo starter.
A terrible combo starter with a very small hit box and gets beat out by almost everything. You throwing a falling up air is just begging to be hit. He can't even get anything major off of this either and only until mid percents when he's out of options...again. His best combo starter? It's his ONLY combo starter. Says a lot.

Critical hits... Smash attacks will hit, no matter how slow they are. Reads, spacing, mistakes... Smash attacks will hit, and in more situations than Whack or Thwack, this will give a kill far sooner than anything else could have. Forward Smash will kill from center stage with a crit at 50% on anyone that isn't a heavy weight. Up smash at 65%. I don't know Down Smash's Crit kill %. My solution prevents the knock back that would have killed. The added damage will still make the opponent easier to kill, but it will give them a chance, and move the blame onto the attack that kills. It sounds like a pretty decent compromise to me.
Again we are sitting here running mental simulations when in practice this happens very rarely. Since we're all using anecdotes since Hero hasn't been out long enough to actually gather data to definitively point out if he is an issue (namely because people either refuse to fight him or just ban him, so match up experience is a huge problem), in my matches with Hero so far I've landed very, very few Smashes. Even when I get a read, his start up is so slow I either miss a read, they block it or just jump away. Yes, from time to time I get a Smash attack success, but my luck hasn't been so good as to get crits. i often get them when it isn't opportune. I'm almost always getting my kills from off stage play/side or forward special. Ganon can merc the same way WITHOUT crits (And also has MUCH larger hit boxes to boot) and has similar frame data to Hero, yet no one cries about banning Ganon because he suffers almost the same issues as Hero as a whole.

Kamikaze no longer ignoring shield... Honestly I don't think Kamikaze really needs the nerf, but I also don't think it will hurt the move significantly. The best time to guarantee kamikaze will hit your opponent, is when your opponent is recovering. They can't shield when they are recovering, so it's best use scenario isn't affected. Also, breaking even is great if the opponent has a large % lead.
This move is still bad even if you change it to make it more bad. This move, I repeat, is so situational. It's only useful if you're in the lead or REALLY want to exchange stocks and still be even. Hero is often in the stock lead and if he IS, unless he's super high percent that giving up his stock for another, then this move isn't something he wants to see in his menu. It's radius isn't even that massive either to boot.

Magic Burst edge guard... You agree that this is a potentially broken aspect. My suggested changes don't change the damage out put, or the area it covers at all. They only make it easier to whiff. The start up time is a nerf, but what I don't mention is that by making it happen faster, it's also better in some ways, because it lets you move sooner after doing it, and if they aren't expecting it, they'll have less time to get out of the area. My goal was to weaken it in specifically in the situation where it is used as a edge guard. My solution isn't perfect, and I'm open to suggestions.
I agree it is potentially an issue. Potentially. Not definitive. Because we haven't had him in the game long enough to even figure out if it'll truly be an issue or not. Like Kamakazi, he puts himself in a bad situation just to close out a stock. He might as well be giving up a stock since now he has no MP and has to try to get it to charge up so he can use his best tools. I don't find this move nearly as egregious as Ivysaur's edge guard using down air to spike through stages or other poking through stage tools or other general edge guard jank. Also the move is less useful the less MP he has, but everyone is just assuming he is at full MP every time he does this. Which is flawed.
 
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xzx

Smash Lord
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,027
Location
Sweden
#10
I agree so much with the OP and Wigglerman.

Hero is a bad character. He actually needs more buffs than nerfs. If I could change the character, it would be this:

- Make so that crits ONLY deal the added damage, not the added knockback. (The crits deal half the base knockback but double the knockback growth in addition to the added damage which makes the crits super strong.)

- Make Whack and Thwack appear slightly less while lowering their success rates.

- Magic Burst is high risk high reward and is a "right spell at the right time"-only spell. I think we need to see more of that spell before deeming it OP, so I think it's fine as it is right now.

- His down-b should have have symbols next to the spells so that the language barrier is eliminated.

- Kamikazee and Hocus Pocus are just bad moves and are too risky/situational to even be considered OK spells, lol.

As for his much needed buffs, his aerials and tilts should be safer and less laggy and his overall mobility needs to be better. (His smash attacks are fine as they are, since they can crit. It's their crits that are a bit strong right know.) He also needs slightly faster startup on some, if not most of his moves.

That's everything. At least his neutral b and side-special are good moves. His up-b ain't so shabby too.

Banning a character this bad is just wrong and extremely hypocritical, plain and simple.
 
Joined
Aug 29, 2018
Messages
1,448
#11
I would only do a couple of adjustments to The Hero.

First, we would nerf the critical hit ratio to something lower (I keep saying something like 1/16 instead of 1/8 chance) or take xyz's approach and have critical hits only deal extra damage but not extra knockback. This is the only thing about The Hero I can agree is a bit too strong, aside from maybe the success rate of Whack / Thwack which can be made a little lower or not work at all at lower percents.

Then, after reading about the language barrier issue, which I had never considered before, I actually agree that it can be a potential issue so it would be cool if little symbols were added to the beginning of each spell name.

The Hero does not need to be banned in the slightest.
 

Wigglerman

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#12
I do find it a little funny though that the one universal change that can be agreed upon (Symbols for spells) could actually be what makes Hero better overall. Reading is harder to do mid fight but our brains will make connections faster with symbols. Being able to tell instantly what a spell is at a glance is going to make menu use way more smooth.
 
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#13
Dang it, the rest of my post got cut. Son of a-

Continuing from Kamakazi: In regards to making it blockable...it would destroy any use the spell has. It'd be absolutely worthless. Here, let me kill myself why you shield. Even if it BROKE shield, by the time he gets back to stage to hit you it'd be the same result as if he'd been ignoring shield anyway. It's a moot change.

In the end, Hero is just a borderline average character with a flavorful gimmick that is nothing that we've seen before. Yet he is on blast for no reason. The only argument I'm seeing that I actually agree with is the language thing. Some form of universal spell recognition would be useful and probably make using the move easier...which, ironically, could make him BETTER and thus more relevant. It's easier to see what spell by a simple symbol as opposed to reading. Spell Menu would be LOADS easier.

Yet I feel that legit complaint is over shadowed by salt and crocodile tears, layered in theorycraft. The character hasn't even had a chance to MAKE his showing, if he'll even get one at all with how generally outclassed he is. His MU spread from my time with him is abysmal. Anyone in the top or high tiers and even many in mid are going to straight up beat Hero. I really can't think of a MU that's in his favor outside of obligatory Little Mac (Yet even a skill Mac is going to wail on Hero with the right patience and proper pressure).

When we had the likes of Brawl MK, we all let him roam free in the end. In Smash 4 we had Cloud and Bayo nearly stagnate the scene (My local scene just DIED after these two became obligatory picks). Hero comes along and people are a little too spooked over nothing. Instead of letting him settle in and see how he ACTUALLY does in the Meta, people just want to lock him up...over...THEORIES! WHAT IFS.

So...yeah, fix the language barrier issue and unban this character. That's the only legitimate reason he 'should' be shelved for now. Yet I feel even that is a bit of a stretch.
Honestly even some bottom tiers have a significant advantage over him. Hero is the only matchup where i feel exceedingly confident playing k.rool (a character who is in a similar boat as hero in most macthups) against them as his projectiles(outside of frizz) are telegraphed enough for belly counter to be a useful reflector for once, krown and kannon ball cancel out all forms of his neutral B on clash and hero's normals are slow and telegraphed enough for K.rool to actually be able to punish them consistently. Honestly the only characters I can think of being worse than hero at this point are little mac, bowser jr, and kirby. He really is at the bottom of the barrel once someone knows what they can do and stops overly respecting their options.
 
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TriforceBun

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#14
Kamikazee is an awesome spell. It's very common to be slightly in the lead but basically running on fumes--I'm talking over 110% and with barely any magic. This is the time to fish for Kamikazee, because that 50% damage is going to make a huge difference even if it doesn't KO your opponent. I'm pretty shocked to hear people dump on it, to be honest. I've gotten Hero into Elite and I run Kamikazee every other game or so. 1 MP to finish off your husk of a stock and potentially be in a full stock lead, it can edge-guard, it's really difficult for people to dodge, and it has tremendous damage and knock back.

Just don't use it on your last life.

On-topic, I wouldn't change a thing about Hero, for reasons already given here (aside from MAYBE putting some really obscure-looking symbols next to each spell; as mentioned, anything too intuitive would essentially be a buff because of the quicker reaction time). The guy's single-handedly breathed new life into Smash Bros for me, and it's not like he's dominating the top of the charts anyway. Banning him now feels like a myopic, knee-jerk reaction.
 
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#15
Yeah but you still have to sacrifice a stock for it so the idea of it being "too good" for sacrifice it requires is honestly really stupid to me.(not to mention that one should never underestimate how far one can potentially carry a stock in this game.) The entire point of it is to be this kind of last ditch effort attack that one shouldn't be able to just get off scot free if they're caught in it.
 

Koopaul

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#16
Hero doesn't need an overhaul. Like someone said, make critical hits more rare. And make Thwack and Whack more rare too. I think that would alleviate some of the worries over his RNG. Then he needs a lot of buffs on his aerials and other attacks.
 

EGsmash

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#17
Get rid of the Critical hits altogether. They're pointless and don't add anything to the playstyle since you can't count on them - they're just random blessings by the RNG gods for playing the same way you always do. Most important reason to remove crits is that most of the other RPG character cast has critical hits in their respective games, but it does not factor in Ultimate. That Hero gets to have critical hits while others don't feels like cheap pandering to would-be DragonQuest XI customers.

Also, increase the delay between closing the Down-B menu and opening it again. Make it harder to cheese the RNG by fishing for that perfect spell.
 
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#18
down b is already clunky enough so no thank you to making it even MORE cumbersome.(honestly if the oppnent is letting the hero player continually go through menus often like that they have no right to complain about "fishing")

That said, crits are dumb i agree as they add honestly nothing of worth to the game outside of occasional salt(I say occasionaly since i addition to the probability of crits hero's smashes are generally impractical to throw out anyway)
 
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#19
My take:

Critícals:
I personally like them. But the base problem with this character is, he’s TOO perfectly translated from DQ. So dealing this insane amount of damage and KB should be toned down.
I love critical because it’s yet another nod to DQ, and I’m sorry.
Nerf them till they have like a mere x1.1 damage and kB increase is ok.

Down+B:
I like what everyone is proposing. I’m going to propose a new one just for varieties sake.
Keep it the same, but have more startup lag on the spell. And here’s the kicker. Once the spell is chosen, Hero raises his hand, and an icon will appear for like 6 more frames. Something like this:

So it gives players enough time to recognize the spell. Also, will have opponent’s attention on the character, not the character’s HUD.

Thwack/Kathwack:
Probabilities should be 0% up until a sum of 30% between Hero and opponent. Then should go.
5% KO > 30% total
10% KO > 40% total
15% KO > 50% total
20% KO > 60% total
25% KO > 70% total
30% KO > 80% total
and so on...
Alternatively, cut the total value by half, and only affect opponent based on opponents damage % so it doesn’t act like a cheap comeback mechanic.

Magic Burst:
2 solutions:
a) The initial explosion multihits do not flinch (Fox lasers) But the final hit deals the heavy knock back.
b) The explosión is multihit, racks tons of damage, but knock back at the end is poor (like, Arseneless Joker or Incineroar’s Down+B)

Hocus Pocus:
Keep it the same. But for Hero spells, it shows no icons this time.

RNG:
It stays. This is non-negotiable. People need to be tolerant. RNG is the gimmick to Hero, just let it go. It needs tweaks, but it’s ultimately fine.
 

Koopaul

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#20
Even if they wanted to, they can't undo the things they made for Hero in patches. This is who he is. All they can do is buff and nerf things, just like everyone else. We're going to have to live with the RNG. But if you nerf the RNG enough it shouldn't be a problem.
 

TriforceBun

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#21
I really don't understand this desire to make Hero more vanilla by both removing his critical hits, and improving his normals. This seems boring to me; the character is fresh, interesting, fun and controversial. We have 75 other players to pick from--why flatten out one of the most unique characters to make him more like the rest of the cast!?
 

SvartWolf

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#22
ugh... i feel that a great way to fix hero, before buffing or nerfing or whatever (since is more a thing of design, rather than OPness) is to make down b contextual menu dependant on hero percentage. that way, actually hero keeps having tons of spells and a very fluid moveset through the match, while making him a little more predictable (and therefore ironically OP, since randomness usually plays against the hero player) but it would give him immediatly more consistency.

Then we can start nerfing and buffing teh stuff that gets broken on thetransition. other easy and interesting nerfs could be in the MP cost. up the mp cost of thwack and lower the chances dpeneding percentages (so its risk reward isnt as skewed) raise the MP cost of his best recovery, (so he is more scared of depleting all his MP, and give magic burst a penality where he can't get MP back for at least 10seconds after using a magic burst. (and maybe a faster hitbox, so it cant be used as easily for inescapable traps).

I think if thwack risk reward ratio is fixed (now is too high and safe), critical hits numbers get tweaked. Mp becomes a truly precious resource a,d the character options are consistent, the character shouldn't be a problem, even with stuff like hocus pocus (again, that could be fixed by tweaking the risk reward ratio)
 

Phyras

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#23
Give every RPG character in the game random critical smash attacks.
That means all fire emblem & pokemon characters, Cloud and Joker ?
Actually the closest representation of a crit is a sweet spotted move...
OR RATHER a critical hit in RPG is a representation of your character sweetspotting its attack.

I would like you to address another concerns : Nintendo's design choices.
Nintendo can't be oblivious to smash bros competition, they know we don't play items, we don't play stage with hazard, we don't like stitched face, missfire and nines.
But what did just happened ? Nintendo thrown us a full RNG gimmicky character that is clearly "Bad" or "not that good" outside of the RNG elements.
That's not the first time they translated a RPG character into smash, Cloud also use spells and crits in FFVII, every pokemon got 6.5% crits in each games and wasn't Marth tipper and Roy hilt "crits" ? and "Hero" ? Even his name is arguably a troll.
So why did they put this character into this game when they actually try to balance the game patch after patch ?
My bet is that they are testing the waters: if Hero get a pass, they could throw more crappy RNG things into our game.

The whole banning things mean a lot in competitive games because once the fence is crossed "ban X", "ban Y" will be easier to say.
But Hero must be fixed: RNG must be rigged, his move set must be buff, and the language things be universal. If it's ban in the first month Nintendo will more likely patch it asap or loose some sales.

To fix crits, I would to make the sword glow when it'ld crit or make it crit on a fixed number of smashes, it's not random if everyone knows you got a little mac K.O punch.
To fix the down special garbage, I wouldn't reset the spells available on the menu and replace only a used spell like Olimar's pikimin, giving stronger spells based on the percent of the hero to reward the player sustainability like Lucario.
With those changes, Hero gimmick would actually become resource management because you'll need to consume mana on lower spells to unlock new spells and the glowing crits would encourage the agressivity. The overhaul character would be stronger because the player's strategy skills would actually matter and be rewarded. LIKE IN A RPG U KNOW, Mr NINTENDO ?
 
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#24
ugh... i feel that a great way to fix hero, before buffing or nerfing or whatever (since is more a thing of design, rather than OPness) is to make down b contextual menu dependant on hero percentage.
This gives me an idea. Sadly it won’t ever happen because the Hero would have to be overhauled in order to make it possible.

But what if they include a Level system.
Then the spells will be level dependant.
For example:

Level 1:
- Metal Slash
- Psyche Up
- Bang
- Heal

Level 2:
- Psyche Up
- Bang
- Heal
- Sizz

By level 20 it could look something like:

Level 20:
- Kacklang
- Kaboom
- Thwack
- Magic Burst

Hero could level up every time he connects a Smash Attack. Or maybe if a specific amount of KB distance on the opponent is dealt.

Although being percentage dependant is also a good idea.

But I kind of like how it currently is.
 

Wigglerman

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#25
This gives me an idea. Sadly it won’t ever happen because the Hero would have to be overhauled in order to make it possible.

But what if they include a Level system.
Then the spells will be level dependant.
For example:

Level 1:
- Metal Slash
- Psyche Up
- Bang
- Heal

Level 2:
- Psyche Up
- Bang
- Heal
- Sizz

By level 20 it could look something like:

Level 20:
- Kacklang
- Kaboom
- Thwack
- Magic Burst

Hero could level up every time he connects a Smash Attack. Or maybe if a specific amount of KB distance on the opponent is dealt.

Although being percentage dependant is also a good idea.

But I kind of like how it currently is.
Not sure I like this idea because if his level is just going to reset upon death, which will be often, he just don't gain useful spells all that often. I also hate Metal Slash. I know why it was included but it's a generally useless spell all together.

While a level system would make him 'consistent' it'd make him too clunky. I feel even more so than he is now. It'd also require total overhaul of how he works and isn't even going to matter. I'd recommend we just discuss how to make him 'work' as he is now. I see no future where Sakurai would do a total overhaul patch by 'rebuilding' Hero's spell system from the ground up.
 
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#26
Yeah, that level system would basically mean you're not going to see most of his spells against anyone decent.

I think it'd be best to have a brawl olimar pikmin-like system wherein you start with a random selection of spells and one gets replaced by another every time you use one rather than it rerandomizing every time one closes the menu, allowing for a more strategic planning based playstyle
 
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dahuterschuter

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#27
There's no legitimate reason to ban Hero. Both the reasons commonly cited are non-issues and don't need solutions or are simply solved.

1. "The character has too much RNG to be competitive!"

The RNG of the Hero character has not been shown to be a main decider in competitive play to the point where it outweighs skill. We've seen no Hero players reaching the top of majors. If the RNG is not significant enough to outweigh player skill in competitive play, then there's no reason to ban the character from competitive play.

2. "How do we decide on language?!"

Simple. All tournament sets will be played in the language which the TO's have set the console to. This eliminates people attempting to switch the language to benefit themselves or disadvantage others.

Follow-up: "But players who don't speak [insert language the TO's have set the console to for he tournament here]!!!!!"

If I go to a tournament in Russia, I'm not entitled to have the console set to English just to suit me. If I want to compete in a Russian tournament, and I want to main Hero, then I'm just going to have to learn the Russian command terms. It's not on the TO's of the tournament to suit me. If I don't want to have to do that, I just won't go to the tourney or won't bother learning the character's menus and play someone else. It's incredibly simple and just has to do with not having a sense of entitlement.
 
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