TM10: Mewtwo Tactics & Discussion

[InfinityCollision]

Old general thread's been dead for over a year and I need a semi-relevant place to drop random Mewtwo thoughts, so here we go.

Wavelands are amazing. Simple, fundamental tech, but arguably still underappreciated. SH bair and uair both have easy waveland windows, Mewtwo can obviously waveland out of hover anything, things like full hop uair->platform waveland are super underused, etc. Speaking of platforms, that momentum platform drop thing Luigi players are doing? It's good for Mewtwo too. We have a lot of interesting options in the air that give the technique great utility. Hovers with momentum, b-reverse/turnaround/wavebounce SBC shenanigans for positioning, combinations of the two, etc. Be creative!

I was going to say something about not getting quite as much velocity out of it as Luigi, but it turns out that's less true than I expected. Mewtwo does get less distance, but comparing them side-by-side (simultaneous jump inputs while standing on a platform) yields surprising information: despite Mewtwo's lower fall speed, Luigi spends more time in the air due to differences in their platform drop animations. They land simultaneously from Dreamland's side platforms; Luigi lands one frame later on Battlefield. It'd probably be 1-2 frames later on Warioware, I didn't check. Luigi's slight advantage in distance travelled is largely a result of this extra airtime.

Plus Luigi gets to perfect waveland into/out of it if he wants to, so there's that. Scoot scoot. Or he can just land and slide another platform-width because who needs friction anyway?

Mewtwo's wavelands are admittedly kind of gross, as much as I just hyped them up. Can only perfect waveland from his "backwards movement" aerial animation, and the ECB on the forward/neutral animations can (positioning varies slightly) extend so low relative to his airdodge that he may spend an extra frame or two in airdodge when he wavelands from it, diminishing his momentum for the waveland and thus reducing distance traveled as compared to a wavedash. Eww. Mewtwo doesn't have time for that, he's tryna scoot scoot fast-like with buttery perfect wavelands. I've brought this up before but PMDT please, give us new airtime animations with more favorable ECB properties. I'll make a silly video to celebrate if you do. Seriously.

Remember when Mewtwo was part of a three-way tie for second fastest pokemon in Gen I? Apparently even now he's in a six-way tie for fourteenth, and Mega Mewtwo Y ties for tenth. Mew2fast. Sometimes I see Mewtwo players move fast in bursts, but Mewtwo can also be fluid and maintain that sense of speed/continuous motion over greater periods of time. The great thing about Mewtwo's movement is the way it all fits together, even if doing so takes some time and thought. If you're moving around and suddenly lose momentum - not give it up, remaining still is a viable option sometimes - stop and revisit that situation. Chances are you could do something differently. And with the way Mewtwo can turn around on a dime both on the ground and in the air, you always have some control over where you're going.

Everyone knows about bair and uair blast zone carries, but Mewtwo's carries near the ground can be just as potent while retaining a greater degree of control over the situation. Controlled hits, resets, keep all your options open. Smaller hits can potentially lead to what you were going for anyway, or something just as good, while tacking on slightly more damage. Don't overextend, and don't be afraid to "pause" every now and then to observe and react to your opponent's behavior if the next option isn't guaranteed. If you can't cover their option then you lose nothing (and potentially avoid a reversal), if you can then you potentially get far more mileage via "soft resetting" the situation and starting a fresh combo.

New fair spacing means new followups on shield if we want to continue pressure in an optimal manner. Not necessarily bad, but different. Eventual retreat is generally still your opponent's best option, which is where the mindgames start. Still think jab1 should have 6 frames startup. Ftilt buff is pretty cool though.

Much to practice, still more to learn...

Maybe controversial thought: After playing around with DJC telehovers in 3.5, I feel that grounded teleport into hover could have a place in Mewtwo's kit without being abusive, centralizing, or overpowered. Easy and relatively safe horizontal approaches with aerials were what made it such an issue in 3.02; without the ability to jump->telehover that option is almost entirely gone and it mostly falls into place as an option for platform techchases, risky but potentially rewarding combo extensions, etc. Fits nicely into the way he already makes constant decisions regarding positioning, conservation vs use of double jump, etc and is arguably more intuitive than allowing double jump out of teleport but not hover. Not that I actually expect this to happen, 3.02 damn near gave people PTSD over certain things. Fun to dream about though.

Other dreamy-stuff: Mewtwo's dash attack momentum adjusted so that both timings get full momentum for DACUS. Teleport able to travel through a platform you're standing on - maybe complicated by the nature of the Clone Engine and Lucario's upb? Hmmm. Sometimes I contemplate Mewtwo with instant double jump lands and a two frame platform no impact DJL window like Yoshi, then I realize that might mess up his ledgedash (which has invincibility for a few frames beyond the end of landfallspecial when executed correctly). Maybe if his accelerations on the following frames were adjusted to compensate? Dunno, but again it's fun to think about even if it'll probably never happen. Reliable platform DJLs would be awesome.

That was longer than I meant for it to be. Guess that's what I get for leaving it open for a few hours and adding stuff periodically. Much to share.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Methods for moving from the ground to a Battlefield platform, sorted by actionable frame and assuming perfect timing:

Full hop waveland: 32
Full hop hover NIL, hover input at same timing as for a waveland: 31
Full hop dair aerial interrupt, dair input during first airborne frame: 30
Teleport autocancel: 24
Full hop double jump no-impact land: 22

Some of these obviously don't work at all if you're not perfect with the inputs. You can actually push hover NIL a few frames faster if you input the hover one frame earlier and either release it for one frame before holding down again or simply push down slowly to get a little extra height before descending.

Early aerial shenanigans! Key points:

-Empty short hop lasts 37 frames. Late aerials may manipulate these values somewhat due to changes in Mewtwo's ECB. Mewtwo lands slightly later when moving in his "backwards" aerial animation, but that's not relevant to the content below.
-Bair FAF is frame 28, uair frame 30, fair frame 36, nair 42, dair 44.

Ground to ground:

-Short hop autocancel fair
-Short hop bair->bair/uair/nair/fair
-Short hop uair->fair/nair
-Short hop bair/uair->waveland
-Full hop nair->dair

Notably difficult variations:
-Short hop fair waveland has one frame of leniency.
-Full hop bair->bair->fair/nair/bair. Nair has four frames leniency, fair has two, bair has one.
-Short hop autocancel nair is frame perfect.
-Short hop uair->bair is frame perfect, but gets the second active frame of bair for your trouble. Yay ECB shenanigans!
-If you hold jump and down from the time you jump until you land, HC dair requires a frame perfect input on the attack. It will only hit below and slightly behind him when used in this manner.

Ground to platform:

-Full hop fair/uair/bair wavelands and combinations of the three with each other and/or followup nair are easy to execute
-Full hop waveland nair has one frame of leniency (autocancel nair is obviously possible by extension)
-Full hop waveland dair has two frames of leniency, though it's worth noting that the timing partially overlaps with the aforementioned aerial interrupt
-Full hop bair->dair is frame perfect; only the first active frame of dair will come out

Some of these have use in a tournament match, others may not. What they all will do is help train you on early aerial timing and each aerial's IASA frames. Platforms of differing heights will open or remove different options. You can also create variants on some of these that lead into low hovers or DJCs.

 

[Zoa]

Where should I start focusing on Mewtwo specific tech? I'm going to be picking him up as a permanent secondary, and I have basic tech down consistently.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'd start with hover. Full control of your momentum both entering and during hover, getting back to ground as fast as possible during HC'd aerials (you'll need to release both the jump and downwards inputs so that you can input a fast-fall several frames after inputting the aerial), understanding when to use it and when to just go for a short/full hop aerial, transitioning into it at any point in your air time, positioning for edge cancels and wavelands out of it when appropriate, etc. From there I'd develop your use of teleports (autocancels and ledge interactions) and shadow ball cancels (using b-techs to manipulate momentum and orientation, dj/hover/waveland/aerial/NIL out of SBC off a platform, etc).

 

[Zoa]

Much appreciated. What are some of the more difficult MU I can currently expect?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Tink is probably the "least favorite" matchup of most Mewtwo players here. Great projectiles that lead into a strong punish game on floaties and he's got decent mobility to boot. The matchup demands proficiency in two aspects of the game often underdeveloped by Mewtwo mains, namely item play and effective pressure.

Speaking of item play, Mewtwo's item game is really good! His glide tosses cover a ton of distance, allowing him to approach aggressively behind it and potentially follow up off hit confirms or continue pressure if the opponent shields. His hover lets him do aerials while holding an item too.

 

[Zoa]

Oh. That's wonderful news about Mewtwo's item applications. I'm a former Link main since Smash 64. Items are actually one of my best areas.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Building on my previous discussion of early aerials: holding jump while doing an aerial or special will buffer a hover out of that aerial. No need to hold down in this situation, you can just go right into it and focus on controlling your movement. In addition to allowing you to extend followups by temporarily conserving your hover, you can mix up a lot of the early aerial stuff by instead hovering out of it. Take the full hop nair onto a platform for example. You could follow it up with an HC fair, or do something like nair->hover nair->hc into grounded options/HC nair/HC fair.

DJC isn't terribly useful for Mewtwo given the maneuverability and safety of hovering and his lack of an IDJL, but there are niche situations where you might find yourself using it over a hover. The primary benefit it carries over hovering is the ability to instantly reverse your momentum. You can take advantage of this to quickly and safely retreat with an aerial for example, enhancing your ability to weave in and out of an opponent's space. Good timing can potentially take this a step further; if for example you insert a dj into Mewtwo's double bair and delay the second bair by a few frames, you can autocancel or waveland out of it. Other variations can move you on and off platforms, space for edge cancels, bait opponents into chasing a false retreat, etc.

 

[InfinityCollision]

More glide toss talk: Mewtwo's glide toss is unusual in that every variant goes really far. Just over half the length of Battlefield. This would kind of be a bad thing if Mewtwo was an item-based character (harder to space properly) but he's not, so this property ultimately fits his needs when it comes to item play. Your basic goal against item characters is to get in and shut down their item games, because they tend to be significantly worse when they can't take advantage of item/projectile options. As such, your glide toss essentially functions as a gap closer with a hitbox in front of it. The different throw directions can be especially useful for a matchup such as Diddy because they let you place the banana in different ways depending on the situation.

AGT is much more situational, especially since teleport prevents you from airdodging, but at the very least I suggest you train in instant AGTs so that you can fully exercise your counterplay options against item-based edgeguards if you're recovering and haven't yet used your up-b.

Quick refresher on Mewtwo's sweetspot system: ftilt, uair, <100 ledge attack, and getup attack sweetspot at the tip. Fsmash and dair likewise sweetspot on their respective outer hitboxes. Dtilt, utilt, and bair sweetspot at the base of his tail. Uair and utilt also have different angles on certain hitboxes:

-Utilt launches up and slightly away at the tip on the first frame, but knocks the opponent almost straight up with the inner hitboxes. There's also a body hitbox that sends at a high, inverted angle, but it's small enough that it rarely comes into play (let alone by intent). When it does, it's as likely to do so via a reverse hit as anything so it may still hit them forward. Later frames homogenize knockback angles, roughly matching the trajectory of the initial tip hitbox.
-Uair launches up and away on the early hitboxes, but hits at a slightly higher angle on the later (rear) hitboxes. The later hitboxes also deal slightly less damage.

Not to state the obvious, but different hitboxes will affect your ability to follow up in many situations. Reverse uair for example leads into bair, aerial disable, teleport fair, etc in situations where the forward hitboxes would not. Maybe other things too.

I've mostly moved on from trying to transition to platforms via teleACs for the time being, but platform drop teleAC (along with short hop teleAC, which is more widely known/used within its own use parameters) might have some promise and potentially allows you to homogenize the angle required. You just have to be consistent with it. I'll post lab data on that next time I drop in.

 

[Zoa]

Thanks for more useful information once again.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I haven't talked about Mewtwo's grab game very much on these boards.

Mewtwo has two throws that lead to techchases or direct followups, namely uthrow and dthrow. Uthrow primarily leads to combos on fastfallers and semi-fastfallers and later converts into a kill throw if you've built sufficient percent. Dthrow doesn't net any guaranteed followups, but it sets up techchases on fast and mid-fallers. Floaties exit hitstun before they touch the ground and offer no followups if they DI down and away. It may be possible to hit certain floaties via a DACUS if they try and jump out, but Mewtwo's DACUS is currently a functionally frame-perfect tech as previously mentioned and most if not all of those characters should be able to stuff the attempt with an aerial (assuming the jump doesn't put them out of range anyway, which does happen for some). Certain semi-floatiness can technically jump out at 0 via DI up and away, but that option keeps them in range for tilt followups.

All of Mewtwo's throws are weight-dependent and will thus have notably less frame advantage against heavier characters.

Use percents for each throw!
Uthrow was tested with DI away, dthrow was tested with DI down and away. Uthrow combos were tested via dash full hop uair and teleport dj uair; as such the useful ceiling for uthrow as a combo option may thus be lower in many cases. Don't waste confirm opportunities. Uthrow percents are also not guaranteed exact, as small optimizations in teleport angles might extend some of these by an additional 1% or so.

Character | Fall Speed | Maximum uthrow combo % | Maximum dthrow tech chase %
Wolf | 3.2 | 113% | 320%
Falco | 3.1 | 109% | 302%
Captain Falcon | 2.9 | 75% | 230%
Fox | 2.8 | 107% | 274%
Diddy Kong | 2.55 | 59% | 165%
Meta Knight | 2.45 | 52% | 136%
Donkey Kong | 2.4 | N/A | 92%
Roy | 2.4 | 50% | 101%
Lucas | 2.3 | 43% | 121%
King Dedede | 2.25 | N/A | 41%
Marth | 2.2 | 1% | N/A
Link | 2.13 | N/A | 67%
Sheik | 2.13 | 11% | 68%
Toon Link | 2.13 | 10% | 75%
Snake | 2.12 | N/A | N/A
Ike | 2.05 | N/A | 22%
Zero Suit Samus | 2.05 | 16% | 69%
Ganondorf | 2.0 | N/A | 32%
Lucario | 2.0 | 0% | 51%
R.O.B. | 2.0 | N/A | 16%
Yoshi | 1.92 | N/A | N/A
Bowser | 1.9 | N/A | 15%
Olimar | 1.9 | N/A | 10%
Pikachu | 1.9 | N/A | 21%
Pit | 1.9 | N/A | N/A
Sonic | 1.9 | N/A | N/A
Wario | 1.85 | N/A | 43%
Ness | 1.83 | N/A | N/A
Charizard | 1.7 | N/A | N/A
Mr. Game & Watch | 1.7 | N/A | N/A
Ivysaur | 1.7 | N/A | N/A
Mario | 1.7 | N/A | N/A
Squirtle | 1.7 | N/A | 21%
Ice Climbers | 1.6 | N/A | N/A
Kirby | 1.6 | N/A | N/A
Luigi | 1.6 | N/A | N/A
Mewtwo | 1.5 | N/A | N/A
Peach | 1.5 | N/A | N/A
Samus | 1.4 | N/A | N/A
Zelda | 1.4 | N/A | N/A
Jigglypuff | 1.3 | N/A | N/A

Fun fact: Ganondorf actually no-impact lands for a while when jumping out of dthrow hitstun due to the massive shift in his ECB when transitioning from falling to double jump. Yoshi also no-impact lands due to his double jump behavior.

Yes, we effectively have no direct followups out of a grab on almost half the cast. So what do?

Mewtwo still has great positional throws, so those are always an option. Uthrow frame traps in certain scenarios as well, and given its favorable frame data you can potentially threaten a later punish if they burn their double jump to escape. Confusion's command grab also yields followups on good DI over a wide range of percents across the cast. You have to burn teleport to get followups at higher percents and it does struggle to combo floaties later on (Jiggs gets out starting at about 55-60), but it does extend our ability to generate followups off throws. It goes without saying that there's also more risk to using Confusion given the increased startup and endlag, so consider your options carefully. The percents above also disregard context-dependent options like using dthrow to set up a platform techchase. Play to the situation.

I mentioned platform drop teleACs before and I've been experimenting with them a bit more. The input window isn't too strict as long as you're consistent with the angle, and the result is basically a slightly safer/less telegraphed platform drop waveland both in timing and approximate distance. Nothing revolutionary, especially since you can manipulate platform drop momentum with SBCs, but it's another option and in theory you could mix it up with things like teleport aerials or maybe even teleporting to another platform.

EDIT: ROB data updated for official 3.6 release.

 

[X Riptide X]

Hey, Infinity? I'd like to see some matches of you playing as Mewtwo. I haven't really seen much PM Mewtwo except for the occasional Kaos/Emu, and I'd like to see the concepts you have here put to use in a real match. I haven't seen much of this stuff applied in PM as of yet. Are there any matches I can watch to try and get a visual of this stuff?

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm afraid not. The nearest regularly streamed event is almost two hours away and often conflicts with my work schedule. I'd like to get some demonstrative videos up and maybe record some friendlies as well at some point, but have no timeline for getting that done right now. My current projects are a DAT-style guide thread and after that an AT thread that'll feature clips of different applications for a lot of the movement tools I've discussed here, so that's a start.

On a slightly different note, I realized last night that I've been crutching on Mewtwo's double jump to make horizontal TeleACs to platform a little easier. Need to break that habit now given the landing lag changes.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Mewtwo can perfect waveland from the edge. I can't access PM right now, but if I can remember correctly, it has 6 frames of intangibility you can act out of. Just hold away from the edge, jump towards the stage, and then a few frames later, do a completely horizontal waveland towards the stage.

 

[InfinityCollision]

^Indeed, and the timing for a horizontal waveland isn't too strict either.

Assuming one frame back then DJ:

Input waveland during frame 8: 5 frames invincibility
Frame 9: 5 frames invincibility
Frame 10: 4 frames invincibility
Frame 11: 6 frames invincibility

On frame 7 you'll airdodge into the ledge and regrab, frame 12 you'll miss the ground entirely.

Same inputs, but with an angled waveland:
Frame 10: 6 frames invincibility
Frame 11: 5 frames invincibility
Frame 12: 4 frames invincibility
etc

Tournament winner into angled TeleAC with invincible startup is also a thing. You can mix it up with a DJ back->teleport straight down to ledge if needed, though that is not fully invincible.

Speaking of jumps into teleAC, triangle jumps with teleAC are a thing. Not faster than good wavedashing, but it's a decent method of positioning assertively and has the perk of putting you back on the ground instead of limiting you to aerial options the way that short hop into horizontal teleport would. Also an interesting crossup option if you don't like your spacing and/or would prefer to be on the other side of your opponent for better stage control and/or a setup. Perfect angling cancels when input during frames 3-4 of a full hop.

Got the hang of full hop horizontal TeleAC to platforms again... Window's not too bad since you've bled off a decent amount of vertical momentum by the time you're at the right height, just had to reestablish muscle memory. Next step will be mastering the ascending 17 degree angle for short hop TeleAC to platforms.

Mewtwo's initial dash velocity is pretty average at 1.4 units per frame. Nothing amazing, but not bad either - for comparison, Roy's initial dash speed is also 1.4. As such, they have comparable dash movement over short timespans (~15 frames or less) and Roy only pulls ahead in when his superior terminal velocity (1.61 to Mewtwo's 1.4) comes into play. Of course, Mewtwo can just wavedash right past him... Also worth noting that Mewtwo's initial dash frames have good hurtbox positioning, as his tail is offset in the Z-axis during his idle/dash/run animations and the rest of his body leans forward.

Mewtwo has the longest dash to run time of any character in the game. Overall this is arguably detrimental or at least not beneficial - run canceling is all but pointless, he requires a lot of time to RAR (you're likely better off doing a pseudo-RAR via wavedash->soft turnaround into a jump), and pivoting isn't as useful for him vs a character like Marth, Roy, ZSS, or Falcon. The biggest advantage it confers is probably the extra time to bait and whiff punish via dashes in and away, but the extent to which he can actually make use of that ability is limited given the space covered in that timeframe.

So what do you do with this dashdance? You fine-tune positioning with it. You conceal intent and diversify your movement. The less linear you are, the more dangerous you become. Dashdancing lets you micromanage your spacing in neutral, while wavedashes and teleports and things let you get where you actually need to be. Mix in moonwalks for your daily dose of style. Wavedash back also lets you make those small retreats while facing forward, which is certainly good for keeping control of that space even as you invite your opponent into it. Wavedashes while facing away from your opponent are particularly dangerous if they're near your space: your tail hurtboxes will be very close to on-axis during jumpsquat and landfallspecial.

Take all that and refine it. Observe the distance a max length wavedash covers after 10 frames of landing (~75% of a BF platform). Mix in different wavedash angles for different distances. Wavedash in place every now and then just to see what your opponent does. It's okay to jump every now and then as long as you do it safely and with purpose - you have DJCs, you have hover, you have teleport, and you don't lose too much speed in the air. Use cactus dashes. Moonwalk more because STYLE.

Speaking of wavedash angles, here's a thing I posted a while back:

Go to Battlefield and roll so that your back is to the ledge. If you wavedash forwards, you can use the platforms above you to get feedback on your wavedash lengths:

-If you jump up to the side platform and land in standing state, your input angle was about 23.2 degrees or more.
-If you jump up to the side platform and land in teeter, your input angle was somewhere around 21.6 to 22.5 degrees.
-If you jump in the space between the side and top platforms, your input angle was roughly 18.6 to 20.8 degrees.
-If your double jump takes you to the top platform, your input angle was less than ~17.9 degrees

Okay, so we've laid out some basic movement concepts. Now you're wanting to put out a hitbox. What are you gonna use?

Your first thought might be dtilt. It's... okay. Great for popping your opponent up, safe on shield when spaced, but not that good in neutral. Be extra careful if they can challenge your range. 5% tip hitbox means it loses to ASDI down and CC for a long time. It breaks ASDI down on Jiggs at 48% and CC at 129%, to give some perspective. Wavedash->dtilt covers a lot of ground and can catch your opponent by surprise at midrange, but ends up being unsafe on shield since you continue to slide. The upside is that it's fast enough to catch opponents off guard.

So what else? HC uair is pretty good at covering your space, and you can push forward a bit with it with a running jump to take advantage of momentum conservation on hover. 12% damage, decent trajectory, pretty safe thanks to range and HC. A few characters can duck under it - nair and fair are probably preferable in that situation, and are solid options in their own right but require you to space more aggressively. I recommend HCing nair relatively early if you get the confirm - good opponents will SDI out given the opportunity and the strong hit limits your followup options anyway. HC fair's value is heavily dependent on where it will put the opponent, so bear percents and weight/fallspeed in mind. HC bair is safeish when spaced (watch those hurtboxes!), but doesn't lead to much so it's most useful if it can put the opponent offstage.

Spaced jab1 is safe and rewarding if you can get past the relatively high startup, but wavedash->jab has the same problem as wavedash->dtilt so it's not really a good neutral tool. Grabs always have their place - side-b too, if you can afford the extra commitment on it.

In a nutshell, you're good at quickly putting yourself where you want to be (and where your opponent doesn't want you to be, which is just as important) and you can put out safe hitboxes of varying reach in order to control your space. Running jumps and hover momentum into HC aerials let you safely extend that range, and safe spaced normals and mixups into grab/command grab let you extend that pressure once you land if you catch your opponent shielding. It takes some thought to make the most of your various options, but they're very effective as a whole.

Practice your fastfall timings for HC aerials. The less time you're in the air after that hitbox comes out, the better. It's also important to remember that you can't fastfall for 5 frames after releasing hover, so you'll need to release it early on. In fair's case it's necessary to release hover on the same frame as the fair input. Optimal timings and block advantage are as follows:

-Fair: Release hover frame 0 (frame of input), fastfall frame 5, +1 on block
-Nair: Release hover frame 0, fastfall frame 5, -5 on block
-Uair: Release hover frames 0-1, fastfall frame 6, +1 on block
-Bair: Release hover frames 0-1, fastfall frame 6, -0 (hit frame 9)/-1 (hit frame 8) on block
-Dair: No fastfall, +4 on block

You'll notice that all of these values except dair differ from their theoretical block advantages, and that's because dair is the only aerial that lands on the frame after it'd make contact with a shield (and even then, you have to be right on top of them for that). Fair and nair end up spending more time in the air on hit/shield because that gives his ECB the time needed to transition to its aerial state. Nair is notably disadvantaged on block when HC'd early and is still -2 on block even if you land right after the strong hitbox - its strength lies in timing mixups, not raw frame advantage. Claiming that fair for example is +3 on block is thus something of a half-truth - it's technically correct in that +3 is fair's maximum possible frame advantage, but even with proper execution that advantage is often reduced in actual use cases. Peach's FC aerials are somewhat similar in this respect, but she gets +2 out of both nair and bair (max +3 on each) when used in an instant float with proper timing and getting +2~4 on block with fair is also quite possible if she's coming down out of the air with it.

Might make a threat zone map to accompany this post at some point, but here's some reference points for now:

-Dash->HC uair covers slightly more distance than the length of a Battlefield platform.
-Dash->HC fair reaches ~80% of the length of a BF platform.
-Dtilt and dash->HC nair cover ~2/3 the length of a BF platform.
-Dash->wavedash->grab on the earliest possible frame will grab an opponent standing at a distance approximately ~40% the length of Battlefield's main platform. Jab1's reach is very similar.
-Dash->wavedash->dtilt on the earliest possible frame reaches almost halfway across Battlefield.
-Dash->full hop TeleAC with perfect angling puts you almost dead center of Battlefield.
-Dash->short hop teleport turnaround bair hits ~2/3 the length of Battlefield at the tip.
-HC aerials lose around half their reach without the initial dash; dash->wavedash/jump options lose about 20% of the width of a BF platform.

 

[Mage.]

So I'm a squirtle main and I love all of his technical stuff and i've started playing Mewtwo and I'm starting to love the same thing. That said, I'm terrible as him LOL. I've mainly got two questions because I specifically want to get better at these two things because I think they are very strong when used properly and are unique(ish) to M2.

Firstly, what is the easiest way to HC? Normally what I do is short hop, push down on the control stick to start hover and then let go to maintain that height, do an aerial, then push down again to fast fall. I'm not sure if that's effective but its really hard. If that's the easy/good way then i'll just keep practicing. My second question is about teleport. Is teleport a good option to use for tricking/baiting enemies? I know he can only now act out of a grounded teleport, but is it still useful for weaving throughout stages and baiting attacks? I'd just like to know more about teleport and its applications.

 

[X Riptide X]

So I'm a squirtle main and I love all of his technical stuff and i've started playing Mewtwo and I'm starting to love the same thing. That said, I'm terrible as him LOL. I've mainly got two questions because I specifically want to get better at these two things because I think they are very strong when used properly and are unique(ish) to M2.

Firstly, what is the easiest way to HC? Normally what I do is short hop, push down on the control stick to start hover and then let go to maintain that height, do an aerial, then push down again to fast fall. I'm not sure if that's effective but its really hard. If that's the easy/good way then i'll just keep practicing. My second question is about teleport. Is teleport a good option to use for tricking/baiting enemies? I know he can only now act out of a grounded teleport, but is it still useful for weaving throughout stages and baiting attacks? I'd just like to know more about teleport and its applications.

The main method I've seen among M2 players is setting L as jump. You shouldn't use X or Y for hover canceling, since you need your right thumb to actually input an attack. Basically, just hold L to hover, then attack and move your hover into the ground.

Hover canceling doesn't work the way you said- you basically described an extended version of a SHFFL. When you initiate your hover, you'll be closer to the ground than if you did a SHFFL, so you can easily throw an attack out and then hit the ground to cancel the aerial's lag.

Teleport is one of Mewtwo's greatest options, and the tricks you can pull with it (in conjunction with his other movement options) can make you completely unpredictable. You're actually wrong with the acting out of teleport bit, though. You can only jump after a teleport if it's grounded, but as long as you have your second jump, you'll be able to act out of teleport. For example, say I hop and teleport sideways. I'll be in the air, but I won't be helpless because I didn't use my aerial jump. In regards to your other questions, I don't use teleport for baiting. Wavedashing in and/or moonwalking are good options for baiting. Teleport is better for bailing out or suddenly approaching. It's also a good combo extender.

Just experiment with teleport, but don't use it as a crutch. While Squirtle has Sonic-like, bursting mobility, Mewtwo's relies on spacing and remaining unpredictable. You engage on your own terms.

By the way, Battlefield is one of the best stages for Mewtwo shenanigans. The platforms provide optimal mixup and movement options.

 

[InfinityCollision]

So I'm a squirtle main and I love all of his technical stuff and i've started playing Mewtwo and I'm starting to love the same thing. That said, I'm terrible as him LOL. I've mainly got two questions because I specifically want to get better at these two things because I think they are very strong when used properly and are unique(ish) to M2.

Firstly, what is the easiest way to HC? Normally what I do is short hop, push down on the control stick to start hover and then let go to maintain that height, do an aerial, then push down again to fast fall. I'm not sure if that's effective but its really hard. If that's the easy/good way then i'll just keep practicing. My second question is about teleport. Is teleport a good option to use for tricking/baiting enemies? I know he can only now act out of a grounded teleport, but is it still useful for weaving throughout stages and baiting attacks? I'd just like to know more about teleport and its applications.

Easiest way to HC is to just hold down, you don't have to release the control stick or jump input at any time. The fastest way to HC involves releasing the jump and down inputs on approximately the same frame as you input the aerial and then fastfalling several frames later; I outlined some details on optimal methods in the post directly above your own.

Very precise use of teleport can be a good positioning tool. It's important to remember that it requires quite a bit of commitment. Optimal movement avoids the "grounded" landing option, as it incurs substantial endlag. Teleports into the air, whether out of a short hop or from the ground at a low angle, incur less lag but have their own drawbacks (short hop means you have no DJ, low angle means you're positioned above head height, and you can't airdodge in either scenario). So-called "teleport autocancels" that involve positioning so that you land directly out of the reappearance animation are perhaps safer, but require more precision, setup, and incur at least one additional frame of inactionability. In short, its offensive uses primarily revolve around assertive positioning for stage control or punishing commitments at midrange rather than aggressively approaching with it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Pivot-y stuff you can do out of wavedashes:

-If you input a soft turnaround out of wavedash (whether by buffering the turnaround input or inputting a walk) for at least two frames then jump, you can do a RAR-esque jump out of wavedash. This is the pseudo-RAR I mentioned previously. Turning around prior to the wavedash obviously works as well, this is simply the optimized version for maximum range/latest possible turnaround.
-The fastest way to completely halt your momentum out of a wavedash while facing forward seems to be wavedash->input dash back for two frames->pivot.
-Soft turnaround also lets you cross up while continuing to slide. Only need one frame for this. Niche, but occasionally useful for repositioning with a certain facing. I've used it to set up throws near the ledge a few times, and you might occasionally catch your opponent DIing wrong with it.

Quick shot of Mewtwo's perfect ledge sweetspot, now with Marth's dtilt above:

Spoiler

That's the frame before he snaps to ledge. Image was taken using 3.5 because 3.6f's frame advance has been giving me issues in Dolphin for some reason and Dolphin's frame advance is wonky, but nothing relevant has changed since then.

I was going to get some frame data for rising short hop TeleACs to platform, but it's so sensitive to angle that the numbers would have limited value. Yoshi's Story for instance - if you use the absolute minimum possible angle, neither short hop nor teleport from the side platforms will work. The momentum transferred from the short hop puts you too high. A slightly higher angle lets you TeleAC without jumping, or you can full hop->horizontal teleport... or I suppose you could full hop->waveland if you really wanted to. That's a thing, right?

Higher platforms are generally more lenient on timing since you'll burn a bit of momentum on the way up.

Kadano's talked about modded control stick gates a bit over in the Melee forums and on his Youtube channel. Potentially of particular benefit for us given that it'd allow consistent low input angles on teleports, permitting the player to focus more on proper timing. His focus has been on notches and (semi-)circular designs, but what might serve better is to add a vertex (corner) at each 17 degree variant from 0/90/180/270, converting the octagonal gate to an uneven hexadecagon. That way the existing diagonal vertices are still in place for situations where they're helpful.

 

[Kapapanerp]

So, a question about secondaries. I know M2 struggles against some characters (Tink and Roy come to mind specifically). Do you think it's worthwhile to grind out a secondary, and if so who complements him well?

 

[X Riptide X]

Secondaries are almost always worthwhile, because it's rare for you to be able to take on any given player in any given matchup. For example, Mango, PPMD, and M2K are among the best Melee players, but they don't solely rely on their skill with one character. In regards to your second question, Mario, Marth, and DK seem to do pretty well against Roy. (This is coming from the M2K vs Sethlon matches, and the knowledge that Roy is a fast faller, and therefore susceptible to chain grabs). Roy also counters Roy pretty well, since Dittos are completely even. Another terrible matchup for M2 is Squirtle, and Marth does a pretty good job of shutting Squirtle down.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Certain matchups can certainly be rather taxing. Many of his matchups improve drastically as your skill level rises - you still have to work hard, but fewer matchups make you work harder.

I don't think Roy is too bad. Tink can be pretty frustrating and is one of Mewtwo's few matchups where I'd give serious consideration to a secondary.

I'm currently without an established secondary or comain, so I'm unable to provide much experiential input in this particular area. Frozen's Lucario secondary has generally done him well, but I don't know his matchup spread well enough to say much about coverage or overlapping strengths/weaknesses. To a certain extent I'm inclined to say "pick a top tier" so that you minimize your vulnerability in counterpick wars. If I had to throw out some tentative guesses at a few high/top tier characters that compliment him decently well, I'd say Diddy, Wolf, Fox, Falcon, MK, maybe even Pikachu.

Secondaries are almost always worthwhile

For a perfect player in a perfect environment sure, but most people lack the time and/or proper mentality to justify comaining. The players you cited have put an immense amount of time and effort into the game, and even they were initially known for one character before they branched out.

The Squirtle matchup isn't what I'd call "terrible" for Mewtwo. It can be frustrating, especially if you don't know the matchup well, but that's true of Squirtle in general.

 

[~Frozen~]

I feel like just about everyone except Tink can be handled well by Mewtwo. Certain chars like Wolf and Pit seem a little hard but dont really need a secondary. Even falcon, who I've personally struggled with a while, has become much more doable with some lab time.

Regarding squirtle and other short chars who can duck under grabs, remember that HC Fair is a very powerful tool. You'll need to be a little closer, but it breaks CC/Squirtle's armor early and pops him up for Mewtwo's devastating punish game.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Coincidentally, I lost to Tink and Wolf at the last event I went to

I noticed something in my matches there. My mental game has improved dramatically over the past few months, but my execution is starting to lag behind. I sometimes miss or flub opportunities when the pressure's on, and as a result my play suffers in critical situations. This is... actually kind of a good problem to have, I think. I certainly prefer it over having tech but no idea how to apply it. This feels like a more natural path for growth. My practice time in the next few weeks/months will be quite productive

Fast characters will probably always be tricky matchups. Noncommittal options vs more deliberate positioning and space control. Completely doable, just tricky.

 

[Tomaster]

Idk why but I always found wolf to be an easy matchup for Mewtwo.. Maybe I haven't played great wolfs yet, but it just feels like our punish game on wolf is so strong, feels better than the other spacies to me.

What is it that makes this a bad matchup? I can see wolf's speed being a problem... As well as up smash and side B, but is that all or is there more to it?

Idk much about wolf so excuse me if I wrote something dumb.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Oversimplifying a bit, but Wolf's easybake combos work pretty well on Mewtwo's large hurtboxes, he can set up kills in whatever direction he pleases, and dealing with smart neutral play is a bit of a chore. We do punish him hard, but it's likely one of our worst matchups.

Mewtwo can shield drop->hover->NIL if you buffer a jump input prior to the shield drop. Three frames in the air, obviously have to release your shield input during that time. You can also do a pseudo-drop cancel via HC'd aerials; you'll need to release the down input to avoid going too low too soon. Buffering the jump input is not necessary here, your timing just needs to be on point.

Mewtwo enters a 13 frame transition animation when he exits hover. Normally irrelevant, but it's notable for two things you can't do out of it, namely Z-drop and no-impact land. You'll always go through the normal 5 frames of landing lag if you land during this animation, even if you would've NIL'd out of a hover or normal fall.

In other hover news, if you're hovering and use an aerial during the IASA frames of another aerial it'll cancel your hover immediately. The second aerial will not hover cancel.

In better hover news, instant hovers will NIL if you continue to hold in a vaguely downwards direction. This is notable because it effectively gives Mewtwo a very quick and (relatively) safe empty hop. Even if you hold your stick at a ~45 degree angle for more horizontal momentum, you'll spend just 19 frames in the air. You'll be low to the ground the entire time as well, so you can waveland back if you feel threatened. Definitely don't want to get hit out of hover. It's another option for aggressive forward movement; you can potentially use a late HC aerial to cover yourself as you move forward if necessary. If they consistently shield as you advance you can go for the mixup into grab, and if they just reposition then you're free to act with no downtime.

Not an option to use often, but if you feel that you're spending too much time on the back foot and struggling to control space it may help with that.

 

[InfinityCollision]

When trying to re-establish your onstage presence from the ledge, you have various options depending on your current situation and your opponent's position/behavior. Your core options are threefold:

1. Ledgedash, for which I laid out timings and actionable invincibility in a post above. This is the safer, but less rewarding option in terms of initial stage position.
   
2. TeleAC onstage. This is much riskier, but the resultant positioning is more favorable.
3. Ledgestall with teleport.

Onstage ledgedash and TeleAC can be input in overlapping windows and from identical starting points. Ideally one could also execute Mewtwo's ledgestall from the same position, such that one's movements would be ambiguous for as long as possible. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be possible, so your best bet is to stay as close to the ledge as reasonably possible.

Regardless, it's quite easy to cover the TeleAC option now that landing in special fall incurs 15 frames of landing lag. Your opponent can cover the teleAC landing position on reaction to teleport startup with no risk of punishment if they use a move that lasts no more than ~30 frames. As such, Mewtwo's ledgedash should be your go-to option for getting back onstage. Ledge hop aerials/specials have a place if the opponent gets too close, but they're risky and Mewtwo's reach coming up is limited.

Mewtwo does have a few variations on his teleport ledgestall based on angle (anything from in and slightly up to horizontal to straight down), positioning, and timing, but the usual option of DJing slightly away from the ledge and teleporting in again is generally the best option. He also has a fully invincible ledgestall using shadow ball cancels via either drop down->dj->sbc->regrab or release back->dj->wavebounce sbc->regrab. Not exactly useful, but it's a thing.

If you're below 100% then you can also utilize Mewtwo's <100% ledge jump. Wavelanding straight down out of it grants up to 4 frames of actionable invincibility, or you can use it to set up an angled TeleAC after a few frames of air time. The teleport's startup will be fully invincible when executed correctly, and you only incur 5 frames of landing lag since you still have your double jump.

If you're below 100% and you haven't used your double jump or teleport before grabbing ledge, you can hover out of a ledge jump. If you continue holding down to land immediately, you'll have up to 12 frames of actionable invincibility. This is generally moreso relevant to situations where you're cornered and want to use ledge invulnerability to push your way back towards center stage rather than after being knocked offstage, but it's worth keeping in mind.