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TL's roll and spot dodge...

GalaxyWaffles

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
133
Location
Bikini Bottom
I was wondering if his roll and spot doge were good. I was unable to find the information here. Also if you guys now what place he ranks for his roll and spot dodge that would be appreciated. Thank you.

P.S if you didn't already know, I'm new here
 

G-Dub

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
355
Location
Wasting away: Inwood FL
Its not that his spotdodge is bad (its average) but its that spotdodging in general is a bad habit that your opponents can catch onto quickly and begin to punish you for it. Instead of panic rolling or spot dodging, shield and weigh your options. Play A LOT and play people who are better than you who can point out your habit and teach you to loose the bad ones.
And tinks roll is just aweful. I'd say second worst (samus being the worst). If you need to move away from your opponent in a snap, just dash away. Its much faster and you retain options you loose when you roll.
And in general shield is a very safe option, usually better to sit in shield then to commit to a roll or spot dodge.
 

NH Cody

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
2,638
Location
Kakariko Village, NH
the only purpose of a spotdodge is to avoid a grab if you predict it. A safer way to punish a grab is to bait it and then hit with nair or something. you could just walk away when they come in to dashgrab, and nair the end lag.
 

G-Dub

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
355
Location
Wasting away: Inwood FL
You can spot dodge an attack that has a lot of shield push to punish what normally would not be possible....but thats rare and should be used very sparingly. (as in almost never lol)
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
Our spot dodge isn't average, it's actually one of the best in the game.

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/dodge-roll-frame-data-now-with-air-dodge.225510/


Spot dodge isn't something that one should use out of fear, because if that's the case, then it'll come out of habit, and if it comes out of habit, the other players will predict it easier. It's important not only to know this to protect yourself, but to know it to abuse it on others.

Something I like to do is spot dodge more/less vs. certain characters. For example, ICs and King Dedede have a grab-heavy playstyle, so obviously, you would aim to spot dodge more against them. Zero Suit Samus on the other hand has a bad grab, meaning that you don't have to spot dodge a lot against her. It's actually better to just hold out your shield.

As for rolling, I use it to roll inwards from the ledge because even if I get hit out of it, it will knock me onstage, and not back on the ledge.
 

NH Cody

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Messages
2,638
Location
Kakariko Village, NH
yeah I had no idea about its ranking in terms of frame data. I was just saying it's very punishable in my experience

idk frame data I just throw bombs and hookshots and stuff
 

Chsal

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
214
Good in terms of frame data, but bad in terms of fitting in in terms of TL's playstyle.

A spot dodge doesn't distance you from the opponent, which is pretty much what you want to be doing most of the time. The only time TL ever really wants to be close is when he is at an advantage, (so if the opponent is hit by a bomb or zair, for example), so unless you're spotdodging something laggy it isn't worth it.

In addition, the risk-reward just isn't that great. The best you'll get most of the time is a fairly weak punish. What you gonna do? Bair? Nair? Grab...? TL simply doesn't have many good punishes unless he has a bomb on hand, in which case you can do some tricky stuff, but typically they just aren't that good. On the other hand some char's will just beat your face in if they get the same chance. (lol mk). It could work in some cases though I guess. If you're going for utilt/bair strings or something. But thats only really reliable on certain chars at certain %s. I have nowhere near the required MU experience for that.

It's generally a much safer option to get away somehow because TL usually has the upper hand at long range.

However, spot dodge's usefulness DOES scale with opponent's %. It can lead into kill opportunities. Running away does not. In this case your potential reward is a kill, instead of just damage.

All theorycraft though, that's how I always saw his spotdodge, but I haven't exactly been able to find a large enough group of decent players.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
[1:54:39 AM] Dan (Twinkie): i have a problem with my close range game
[1:54:45 AM] ********: just jab
[1:54:47 AM] ********: and pray
[1:54:47 AM] Dan (Twinkie): in which my RPS is just really bad
[1:54:49 AM] Dan (Twinkie): but
[1:54:54 AM] Dan (Twinkie): that's hard
[1:54:56 AM] Dan (Twinkie): to jab
[1:54:58 AM] Dan (Twinkie): pushing A button
[1:55:03 AM] ********: its all we got
[1:55:11 AM] Dan (Twinkie): what if i pray to the wrong god
[1:55:14 AM] ********: too close to nair? jab
[1:55:21 AM] ********: jab got blocked?
[1:55:24 AM] ********: mash spotdodge
[1:55:36 AM] ********: keep mashing spotdodge till dmsash gimp works
[1:55:51 AM] Dan (Twinkie): i'm gonna see how substituting rolls/spot dodges with simply running works
[1:56:18 AM] ********: just running away?
[1:56:23 AM] Dan (Twinkie): yes
[1:56:24 AM] Dan (Twinkie): idk
[1:56:38 AM] ********: it will work if the opponent is waiting for rolls spot dodges
[1:56:42 AM] Dan (Twinkie): i think rolling/spot dodging really slows us down, and doesn't put us in a better situation
[1:56:44 AM] ********: loses to mash atk
[1:57:00 AM] ********: rolling spotdodging does nothing for us lol
[1:57:01 AM] Dan (Twinkie): like if you spot dodge, ok you missed the grab, but they are right in front of you again
[1:57:05 AM] ********: yup
[1:57:07 AM] Dan (Twinkie): if you roll, i mean roll is bad
[1:57:11 AM] Dan (Twinkie): so like, what do
[1:57:18 AM] Dan (Twinkie): gonna try to just run
[1:57:20 AM] Dan (Twinkie): or jump
[1:57:26 AM] ********: this is something ive wondered about for years
[1:57:31 AM] Dan (Twinkie): or SHAD
[1:57:39 AM] ********: ewww
[1:57:47 AM] ********: welll
[1:57:51 AM] Dan (Twinkie): i can zair out of shad
[1:57:53 AM] ********: its not too bad i guess
[1:57:57 AM] ********: idk
[1:58:08 AM] ********: its something im afraid of using
[1:58:37 AM] ********: cuz very few moves ground moves are like punishable enough for us to zair them for
[1:59:23 AM] ********: but at anypoint you block something i almost always jump Oos
[2:01:18 AM] Dan (Twinkie): to nair
[2:01:43 AM] ********: fullhop nair is like our greatest get me outta here move
[2:02:22 AM] ********: unless the char ur doing it against has like a godlike killing air move
[2:02:27 AM] ********: and reacts fast
 

G-Dub

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
355
Location
Wasting away: Inwood FL
Seriously tho. Just dashing away is our best options when getting pressured. If they pursue the dash, we have time to react and act accordingly with a lot of our options. If they do not pursue the dash, then we just made it back to neutral where we are strong. If we dash towards the ledge and they hold center stage we still have time to work with and can let them approach us. If they start camping....well.....we're toon link lol. Let em camp us.

Edit: also full hop Oos is a great option as well. Its all about mixing up how we get away and react to attacks on shield and pressure.
 

GalaxyWaffles

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
133
Location
Bikini Bottom
oh maybe TL isn't the character for me :s I spot dodge and roll a lot but not in the predictable way..

*sigh*

Guess, i'll move to pit then.. jk

but seriously.. am I just suppose to stand there and waste my shield instead of rolling out of the way or something..?
 

Thebest1pj

Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
3,326
Location
Intergalactic camping with mjg.
His spotdoge is amazing if you have good timing.

I spotodged through diddys whole jab jab tail jab animation.

Roll is alright you can use it to get away pretty easily.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
Roll is very bad in theory, is what everybody is trying to say. It really is an awful move.
BUT

It's not awful enough to be useless. You will occasionally find use, and even success with the move. You just can't depend on it that much.
 

Thebest1pj

Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
3,326
Location
Intergalactic camping with mjg.
Galaxy this is brawl.

People can get away with the dumbest stuff despite the frame data.

Roll is alright it can get you out of some sticky situations (Like an up close fight in which the other person char is faster).
 
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