Tips against PAC-MAN?

[Reila]

I have had a series of match against a PAC-MAN player online, I think they went by the name "Samp". Anyways, they were super good. The whole time during the matches I struggled to get close to them, I felt like I was inside a fruit salad. I was playing Inkling but I also play Pokémon Trainer and Isabelle. Looking for general tips, if possible.

 

[popemanz]

contest him look out for down-b same as kirby hit it unless you think he'll shoot it first if you knock him out of side b you eat the end of it .his recovery loses jumps from projectiles . his neutral b is his biggest threat if you don't get it heavyweight look out for it's his setup for kill conforms doge it like simon's axe. galaga aka spaceship it his main combo food doge it at most cost. orange is just pressure

 

[smoulder]

Don't let him get the key, and use the fire hydrant to your advantage if possible.

Also, pac-man players will try and run away to get the key, so try to capitalize on their temporary vulnerability.

 

[MangoPeachey]

Try your absolute best to catch items by maybe throwing out a nair when he throws the bell or the key

 

[popemanz]

Don't let him get the key, and use the fire hydrant to your advantage if possible.

Also, pac-man players will try and run away to get the key, so try to capitalize on their temporary vulnerability.

key is not used by better pac-man players that often for because it's not that good damage or knockback but if he does use it yes and pressure him

 

[MangoPeachey]

Predicting a grab with spotdodge could possibly net you a stock

 

[popemanz]

Predicting a grab with spotdodge could possibly net you a stock

yeah but that's all characters but his grab is trash

 

[dragontamer]

IMO, PacMan's best pressure is Melon. Key is good damage and a off-stage kill-threat (its knockback on stage isn't that good actually...), but I don't expect Pac-Mains to actually use Key often.

Melon greatly reduces the opponent's options: if they decide to catch it, opponents will catch melon at predictable locations... leaving themselves open to counter-attack or grabs. If they shield, PacMan can recatch melon and Z-Drop shield pressure (Nerfed in Ultimate, but still threatening in my experience). IMO, good PacMains will use Strawberry, Orange, Apple, Melon, and Galaxian most often (depending on how much charge the opponent lets him have). Bell and Key are rather specialized (Key's main disadvantage is that you lose all your other projectiles until you use the key. A heavy loss for sure).

When Melon is out, remember that Pac-Man can still do whatever he wants. Don't mindlessly grab it. Its a decent idea to running-attack grab the Melon, but even this option can be predicted by PacMan.

Catching Strawberry or Orange is safer. It proves to the PacMain that you're not a player to be triffled with, it has relatively low risk, and it prevents PacMan from using neutral-B as long as you hold onto the strawberry or orange. If you're really in your opponent's head, you can catch the key, but I doubt that equally-skilled players would be read so easily.

-----------

PacMan's worst problem is the lack of reliable kill options. Just play carefully, and you'll be living to 140% regularly. You'll often be able to KO PacMan before PacMan can KO you (unless you are Pichu or something). PacMan's only center-stage kill moves are his smash attacks, and Side-B (Power Pellet).

Bair, Key and Hydrant kill way over 150%+ center-stage. But if you're off-stage, PacMains will use these options to try and sneak in an early kill. (Example: Fair->Fair->Fair->(non-combo) -> Key can KO at 30%, since the Fair->Fair chain pushes opponents far offstage). PacMan's ledge game is very good, especially with all the hydrant options. There's a lot of setups to learn, but especially watch out for Trampoline + Hydrant combos. The Trampoline forces you to jump, which limits ledge-recovery options and makes your future location more predictable.

PacMan's (unreliable) kill setups are DTilt, DThrow, and Fair (which setup a Jab-lock -> FSmash), and Bell -> FSmash (Paralysis). Grounded opponent Bell -> Running FSmash seems reliable, but Bell often hits jumping opponents. PacMains likely will have to master Bell -> SideB (max power) to turn Bell into a reliable kill option (theoretical, I haven't mastered this setup yet).

Pacman's DTilt, DThrow, and Fair have low-launch angles. Be sure to tech them, because PacMan loves the jab-lock -> FSmash.

 

[MangoPeachey]

Pac just sounds really hard to play, very complicated

 

[popemanz]

Pac just sounds really hard to play, very complicated

yes and mediocre but since no one knows how to play against him in intermediate levels he is top tier

 

[Reila]

Thank you everyone for responding and thank you D dragontamer for the long response. I will take the advice to mind.

Don't let him get the key, and use the fire hydrant to your advantage if possible.

Also, pac-man players will try and run away to get the key, so try to capitalize on their temporary vulnerability.

The PAC-MAN player I faced never seemed to bother with the key. They mostly used melons, apples, the bell and galaxian. I have the matches uploaded on my channel (signature) in case you are curious on how the player played PAC-MAN.

Pac just sounds really hard to play, very complicated

Yeah, I gave up on him quickly in Smash 4. You need a different mindset to approach and play PAC-MAN, just like Villager, Duck Hunt and more recently, Isabelle.

 

[dragontamer]

The PAC-MAN player I faced never seemed to bother with the key. They mostly used melons, apples, the bell and galaxian. I have the matches uploaded on my channel (signature) in case you are curious on how the player played PAC-MAN.

You're definitely lacking matchup exp vs PacMan. The biggest mistake is how you rush-down into the hydrant setups. PacMan's "run-off -> FSmash" hydrant launch breaks your particular approach angle.

Throughout the video, you're pretty much attacking where PacMan is at the moment. You need to aim and attack where PacMan will be: roughly one fox-trot behind the Hydrant. Never attack Pacman's "strong zone" area, you need to avoid that area at all costs. And certainly don't attack the Hydrant when Pacman is close: the Hydrant has hit-stop penalties (your character slightly freezes when it attacks the Hydrant).

That's my opinion anyway, from these matches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Qu8J9dIaQ

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PacMan also freezes when he attacks the Hydrant, but the PacMan player will generally have more experience than you on that subject. In either case, if you see a FSmash or some other big attack on the Hydrant, you will generally have an opportunity to rush in afterwards.

In effect, your timing for your rushdown is poor. You're attacking precisely when PacMan is strongest. If you delay slightly earlier or later, you'll have an easier time. Alternatively, you need to come in from an angle where PacMan's weaker. Jumping in from a higher angle will force PacMan to move around more, because PacMan doesn't have very many options to stop a high-angle approach (Ex: Bayonetta / Greninja angles). Inkling can get there with maybe a double jump, or an aerial Side-B.

With a bit more experience, you'll recognize the launch angles of certain Hydrant setups. Ex: Hydrant -> FSmash. Typically, you can run-under the Hydrant (especially a small, fast character like Inkling). Of course, the opponent can change the launch angle at will by choosing different attack, but the various attacks (FSmash, FTilt, DTilt, and BAir) all launch the hydrant at a similar angle that Inkling can definitely run under afterwards.

-------

There were times when you could have gimped PacMan. If PacMan is very far from the ledge, attack the POWER PELLET, which breaks his recovery. You had lots of opportunities, but you probably didn't know this fact. Aim at the POWER PELLET to destroy PacMan's recovery, not PacMan himself. PacMan still will have Trampoline, if you can steal the 3rd jump, PacMan's recovery greatly diminishes. Be careful though: the 4th jump is a guarenteed death, so be sure to time it to jump on the trampoline exactly on the 3rd time.

Failing to Gimp Pacman will result in lots of damage: the Power-pellet move has high-KO power, while the Trampoline can kill you if you mistime your attack. Nonetheless, with a bit of practice, you can consistently gimp PacMan's recovery.

-------

The PacMan you played against was relatively a rushdown style PacMan. Certainly more aggressive than I would have been. It seemed like he was very good at Galaxian combos, as well as converting a lot of damage off of small hits. But I think he was a bit spammy with his Smash attacks and needed to play more carefully as well.

I'm personally quite passive and defensive though. I prefer not to rushdown unless I have an overwhelming advantage (ex: Melon or Galaxian in play, or Slowly-bouncing Hydrant).

 

[Reila]

You're definitely lacking matchup exp vs PacMan. The biggest mistake is how you rush-down into the hydrant setups. PacMan's "run-off -> FSmash" hydrant launch breaks your particular approach angle.

Throughout the video, you're pretty much attacking where PacMan is at the moment. You need to aim and attack where PacMan will be: roughly one fox-trot behind the Hydrant. Never attack Pacman's "strong zone" area, you need to avoid that area at all costs. And certainly don't attack the Hydrant when Pacman is close: the Hydrant has hit-stop penalties (your character slightly freezes when it attacks the Hydrant).

That's my opinion anyway, from these matches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Qu8J9dIaQ

--------

PacMan also freezes when he attacks the Hydrant, but the PacMan player will generally have more experience than you on that subject. In either case, if you see a FSmash or some other big attack on the Hydrant, you will generally have an opportunity to rush in afterwards.

In effect, your timing for your rushdown is poor. You're attacking precisely when PacMan is strongest. If you delay slightly earlier or later, you'll have an easier time. Alternatively, you need to come in from an angle where PacMan's weaker. Jumping in from a higher angle will force PacMan to move around more, because PacMan doesn't have very many options to stop a high-angle approach (Ex: Bayonetta / Greninja angles). Inkling can get there with maybe a double jump, or an aerial Side-B.

With a bit more experience, you'll recognize the launch angles of certain Hydrant setups. Ex: Hydrant -> FSmash. Typically, you can run-under the Hydrant (especially a small, fast character like Inkling). Of course, the opponent can change the launch angle at will by choosing different attack, but the various attacks (FSmash, FTilt, DTilt, and BAir) all launch the hydrant at a similar angle that Inkling can definitely run under afterwards.

-------

There were times when you could have gimped PacMan. If PacMan is very far from the ledge, attack the POWER PELLET, which breaks his recovery. You had lots of opportunities, but you probably didn't know this fact. Aim at the POWER PELLET to destroy PacMan's recovery, not PacMan himself. PacMan still will have Trampoline, if you can steal the 3rd jump, PacMan's recovery greatly diminishes. Be careful though: the 4th jump is a guarenteed death, so be sure to time it to jump on the trampoline exactly on the 3rd time.

Failing to Gimp Pacman will result in lots of damage: the Power-pellet move has high-KO power, while the Trampoline can kill you if you mistime your attack. Nonetheless, with a bit of practice, you can consistently gimp PacMan's recovery.

-------

The PacMan you played against was relatively a rushdown style PacMan. Certainly more aggressive than I would have been. It seemed like he was very good at Galaxian combos, as well as converting a lot of damage off of small hits. But I think he was a bit spammy with his Smash attacks and needed to play more carefully as well.

I'm personally quite passive and defensive though. I prefer not to rushdown unless I have an overwhelming advantage (ex: Melon or Galaxian in play, or Slowly-bouncing Hydrant).

That is some incredible feedback, thanks. I definitely lack match up knowledge on pretty much most match-ups, in particular with Inkling who is a newcomer.

I didn't know a few things you mentioned. Like is a rushdown PAC-MAN even effective, or it is one of those things that only works against newbies like me? Or is it more effective now because of the changes they made to the fighter from Smash 4 to Ultimate, maybe. I am asking this because I am planning to main three fighters who aren't rushdown (I am not sticking with Inkling) and I know mixing up your playstyle is necessary against a good player who will adapt to what you are doing through the match. This is something I was wondered about trapper/zoning fighters. I suppose it depends on how good the normals of the fighter are, yeah? PAC-MAN seem to have some fairly decent aerials, mainly fair, so there is that.

The power pellet thing is great advice. I didn't even know it had a hitbox.

Cheers! Do you main PAC-MAN, btw?

 

[dragontamer]

That is some incredible feedback, thanks. I definitely lack match up knowledge on pretty much most match-ups, in particular with Inkling who is a newcomer.

I didn't know a few things you mentioned. Like is a rushdown PAC-MAN even effective, or it is one of those things that only works against newbies like me? Or is it more effective now because of the changes they made to the fighter from Smash 4 to Ultimate, maybe. I am asking this because I am planning to main three fighters who aren't rushdown (I am not sticking with Inkling) and I know mixing up your playstyle is necessary against a good player who will adapt to what you are doing through the match. This is something I was wondered about trapper/zoning fighters. I suppose it depends on how good the normals of the fighter are, yeah? PAC-MAN seem to have some fairly decent aerials, mainly fair, so there is that.

The power pellet thing is great advice. I didn't even know it had a hitbox.

Cheers! Do you main PAC-MAN, btw?

PacMan has good aerial speed and relatively disjointed hitboxes on all attacks (included grounded ones, like FSmash, FTilt, UTilt, Fair). They aren't the best in the game, but they're workable. It means that when PacMan can certainly rushdown on certain matchups. We're not talking like Chrom / Roy level, but PacMan's grounded game is certainly better than Villiager's. This was certainly true in Smash4, PacMan's overall strategy hasn't changed in Ultimate IMO (but the setups have changed, now that Fruit Cycling is a thing, and repeated ZDrop setups have been removed)

PacMan's "rushdown" game is less about killing the opponent, and more about his decent combo options. Its pretty easy to get Fair->Fair or Uair->Uair combos to hit 30% or more damage. And with low-trajectories on FTilt, DTilt, DThrow, and FAir, PacMan can often get a jab-lock setup (unreliable, since opponents can tech it). But without a good kill option, PacMan's damage is not really a threat, its just kinda surprising how much % he can rack up, even without any fruit / hydrant as backup.

But without an easy way to convert into a Kill, the %damage is more of a curiosity as opposed to a real threat. IMO, PacMan's kill options lie in the ledge game / recovery game, but I'm still theory-crafting strategies for Smash Ultimate (especially since some setups are completely ineffective in some matchups). The off-stage hydrant game (especially BAir -> Jab1) forces opponents to move and/or recover in certain ways, which can setup an FSmash opportunity.

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I guess that makes optimal PacMan kinda bipolar. Around 20% to 50% (opponent's damage), PacMan will want to rush down and combo you. Above 80%, PacMan's combo game becomes unworkable, so good Pac-Mains ought to switch to a zoning / trapping strategy, to hopefully convert into a kill. Below 20%, PacMan doesn't do enough knockback and needs to zone. Everything seems to be a disadvantage-state, even on hit.

I do plan to "main" PacMan, but I don't plan to play at tournaments or be as serious with this game as before. I've don't got as much time this time around compared to last time.

 

[Reila]

PacMan has good aerial speed and relatively disjointed hitboxes on all attacks (included grounded ones, like FSmash, FTilt, UTilt, Fair). They aren't the best in the game, but they're workable. It means that when PacMan can certainly rushdown on certain matchups. We're not talking like Chrom / Roy level, but PacMan's grounded game is certainly better than Villiager's. This was certainly true in Smash4, PacMan's overall strategy hasn't changed in Ultimate IMO (but the setups have changed, now that Fruit Cycling is a thing, and repeated ZDrop setups have been removed)

PacMan's "rushdown" game is less about killing the opponent, and more about his decent combo options. Its pretty easy to get Fair->Fair or Uair->Uair combos to hit 30% or more damage. And with low-trajectories on FTilt, DTilt, DThrow, and FAir, PacMan can often get a jab-lock setup (unreliable, since opponents can tech it). But without a good kill option, PacMan's damage is not really a threat, its just kinda surprising how much % he can rack up, even without any fruit / hydrant as backup.

But without an easy way to convert into a Kill, the %damage is more of a curiosity as opposed to a real threat. IMO, PacMan's kill options lie in the ledge game / recovery game, but I'm still theory-crafting strategies for Smash Ultimate (especially since some setups are completely ineffective in some matchups). The off-stage hydrant game (especially BAir -> Jab1) forces opponents to move and/or recover in certain ways, which can setup an FSmash opportunity.

-----------

I guess that makes optimal PacMan kinda bipolar. Around 20% to 50% (opponent's damage), PacMan will want to rush down and combo you. Above 80%, PacMan's combo game becomes unworkable, so good Pac-Mains ought to switch to a zoning / trapping strategy, to hopefully convert into a kill. Below 20%, PacMan doesn't do enough knockback and needs to zone. Everything seems to be a disadvantage-state, even on hit.

I do plan to "main" PacMan, but I don't plan to play at tournaments or be as serious with this game as before. I've don't got as much time this time around compared to last time.

I didn't know they removed repeated Z-drop combos. Those were fun to watch. I remember wishing I could grab and Z-drop the can with Duck Hunt. That would probably not be too balanced...

I asked about your main because I wanted to ask if you wanted to play online. I could use the practice, and you seem to be good at the game.

 

[dragontamer]

I didn't know they removed repeated Z-drop combos. Those were fun to watch. I remember wishing I could grab and Z-drop the can with Duck Hunt. That would probably not be too balanced...

I asked about your main because I wanted to ask if you wanted to play online. I could use the practice, and you seem to be good at the game.

I'm certainly open for some games, although I'm kinda sensitive to lag. So if the lag is bad, I'll probably stop playing, lol.

 

[Reila]

I'm certainly open for some games, although I'm kinda sensitive to lag. So if the lag is bad, I'll probably stop playing, lol.

What is your Switch FC?

 

[xzx]

I just wanna sneak in here and say that jab locks doesn't force getups anymore (you can roll from them and even do getup attacks) so they are more like combo extenders and not kill confirms. Pac-Man's smashes are too slow to hit from a jab lock.

 

[dragontamer]

I just wanna sneak in here and say that jab locks doesn't force getups anymore (you can roll from them and even do getup attacks) so they are more like combo extenders and not kill confirms. Pac-Man's smashes are too slow to hit from a jab lock.

I'm pretty sure Jab1 -> FSmash (minimum charge) is a true combo from jab lock.

Beefy Smash Dudes says Jab-lock window is 25-frames (weak hit after tech-miss), and then 38-frames between the Jab -> Final hit for a true combo. PacMan FSmash is 16 frames. If Jab1 doesn't work, maybe weak-hitbox Nair will be the go-to jab-lock starter, because weak-hitbox nair -> landing lag -> FSmash is almost certainly less than 38 frames.

https://smashboards.com/threads/pac-man-is-back-man-frame-data-damage-changes.455461/

Confirmed with our current frame data. Jab1 is active on frame 4, FAF is frame 20. That is -16 frames from Jab1.

FSmash is active on frame 16, which means Jab1 -> FSmash has a combined delay of 33 frames, which is smaller than the 38-frame window needed to continue a combo off of a Jab lock. You only have 5-frames of error, but Smash's buffering system is pretty loose.

Looks like Jab2 FAF is frame 22, so that shrinks to 3-frames of error. Still possible, but a smaller window for Jab1->Jab2->FSmash combo from jab-lock.

 

[dragontamer]

What is your Switch FC?

I seemed to have missed this post.

6920 3513 8126

As I stated before: I'm not playing as often as I used to. But feel free to add me. Maybe we can get a game in or two.

 

[Gamer Cube]

You're definitely lacking matchup exp vs PacMan. The biggest mistake is how you rush-down into the hydrant setups. PacMan's "run-off -> FSmash" hydrant launch breaks your particular approach angle.

Throughout the video, you're pretty much attacking where PacMan is at the moment. You need to aim and attack where PacMan will be: roughly one fox-trot behind the Hydrant. Never attack Pacman's "strong zone" area, you need to avoid that area at all costs. And certainly don't attack the Hydrant when Pacman is close: the Hydrant has hit-stop penalties (your character slightly freezes when it attacks the Hydrant).

That's my opinion anyway, from these matches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Qu8J9dIaQ

--------

PacMan also freezes when he attacks the Hydrant, but the PacMan player will generally have more experience than you on that subject. In either case, if you see a FSmash or some other big attack on the Hydrant, you will generally have an opportunity to rush in afterwards.

In effect, your timing for your rushdown is poor. You're attacking precisely when PacMan is strongest. If you delay slightly earlier or later, you'll have an easier time. Alternatively, you need to come in from an angle where PacMan's weaker. Jumping in from a higher angle will force PacMan to move around more, because PacMan doesn't have very many options to stop a high-angle approach (Ex: Bayonetta / Greninja angles). Inkling can get there with maybe a double jump, or an aerial Side-B.

With a bit more experience, you'll recognize the launch angles of certain Hydrant setups. Ex: Hydrant -> FSmash. Typically, you can run-under the Hydrant (especially a small, fast character like Inkling). Of course, the opponent can change the launch angle at will by choosing different attack, but the various attacks (FSmash, FTilt, DTilt, and BAir) all launch the hydrant at a similar angle that Inkling can definitely run under afterwards.

-------

There were times when you could have gimped PacMan. If PacMan is very far from the ledge, attack the POWER PELLET, which breaks his recovery. You had lots of opportunities, but you probably didn't know this fact. Aim at the POWER PELLET to destroy PacMan's recovery, not PacMan himself. PacMan still will have Trampoline, if you can steal the 3rd jump, PacMan's recovery greatly diminishes. Be careful though: the 4th jump is a guarenteed death, so be sure to time it to jump on the trampoline exactly on the 3rd time.

Failing to Gimp Pacman will result in lots of damage: the Power-pellet move has high-KO power, while the Trampoline can kill you if you mistime your attack. Nonetheless, with a bit of practice, you can consistently gimp PacMan's recovery.

-------

The PacMan you played against was relatively a rushdown style PacMan. Certainly more aggressive than I would have been. It seemed like he was very good at Galaxian combos, as well as converting a lot of damage off of small hits. But I think he was a bit spammy with his Smash attacks and needed to play more carefully as well.

I'm personally quite passive and defensive though. I prefer not to rushdown unless I have an overwhelming advantage (ex: Melon or Galaxian in play, or Slowly-bouncing Hydrant).

Why do you reveal our secrets? Shhhh....

XD

 

[Wigglerman]

Why are people suggesting spot dodging his grab? That's bad. You'll get grabbed anyway due to how long it lingers. You want to punish a grab attempt but spot dodge is not the correct answer. Jumping or rolling behind is your safer option provided he doesn't predict and pivot grab (It also can catch people in the air as the hit detection for it is oddly large).

But as others have said, keeping pressure on him so he can't get to the fruits he wants is important but I highly warn not to underestimate his ability to box in this game. Pac isn't nearly as scared to take the fight to his opponent as he was in Smash 4. His air attacks are no joke, quite fast and fairly safe. Careful for B-Reverse fruit tosses to punish you for being too reckless or predictable. Keep an eye out for hydrant but do NOT get tunnel vision on it. It will often end a player quick if they get too focused on the hydrant but forget about Pac, thus allowing him to set up or just bash the hydrant into you if you failed to knock it flying.

He's also able to be out zoned quite hard by anyone with a more potent projectile game (The Links for example can make Pac's life Hell at times due to sending so many projectiles his way and making him drop fruits).