Tips against Captain Falcon?

[Sutekh]

So, I recently attended my first tournament, and although I was happy with my performance, I did find that Captain Falcon was one character that I really struggled against. I know it mostly had to do with the fact that none of my friends are Falcon mains, so I'm really unfamiliar with the matchup. I know part of the issue was that I rely a lot on grabs to start combos at low percents, but Falcon is so heavy that I can't really follow up after my throws. On top of that, it seemed like he was able to convert any grab he got on me into a kill or at least 40-50%. Basically, these are the questions I have:

How should I go into my next game against a Falcon? Are there certain moves/actions I should avoid? Any I should watch for? Are there any guaranteed combos Marth has on Falcon to rack up percent?

Additionally, if there are any good guides/ analysis on the matchup, send them my way as well! Thanks guys!

 

[FE_Hector]

As somebody once told me, "Falcon's too fat." They were talking about CGing him, but it's really true. He's too heavy to get any good follow-ups at lower %s off of grabs, so instead try to threaten him with fair and dtilt a little bit more. Fthrow probably isn't too bad in the MU, either. One of the realities of the MU, though, is just that when Falcon hits, he hits HARD. A lot of the top tier characters have a lot of pretty damaging moves they get off really fast, but Falcon probably puts on the most damage the fastest unless you get waveshine'd to death or are just fighting Leffen with his crazy good uairs. Really the only other thing I have to say about the MU (IDK it too well) is that his SH nair range covers so much stage at once, it can get pretty annoying (but that's why Sakurai blessed us with CC grabs :D )

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

Yeah, FE_Hector is right, Marth's CG doesn't work the same way as on spacies since his up throw can depend on weight (similar to Bowser's down throw) and Falcon is heavy. The reason that Marth can 0-death combo spacies starting with a CG is because both Fox and Falco are light but fall very fast which makes it possible for so many regrabs. You have to have Falcon be at least in the mid-percents to start your CG; I can't remember the specific ranges right now. Before that, this matchup (at least for the Marth side) is dependent on taking control of the stage and stuffing Falcon (similar to the neutral game against Spacies again, but Falcon is still incredibly fast). If you don't win the neutral and keep control like Marth should do, Falcon can do the same but combo from 0-death. This will feel like a losing matchup for Marth until the upper-levels (even PPMD has lost to S2J as Marth, so it still can feel rough as a Marth main).

 

[FE_Hector]

Something I just remembered, grab -> dthrow -> fsmash when your back is at the ledge wrecks a lot of people who aren't expecting it. You've just gotta confidently throw out the fsmash to catch the DJ that they may or may not use. It sounds a little scrubby, but it can work really well.

 

[Paper Tiger]

You can follow ups on Falcon at low percent. At 0% if you get a grab, you can tech chase him ad nauseam. After 7% I believe, you can fthrow tech chase, and you want to stop around 35-40%. If he has room to fully tech away roll from d-throw, he can buffer roll out or do anything but you are still in advantage. At 40% he is at combo percent, just try to hit him with a fair and juggle him until you feel like hitting him offstage. 62-65% you can up-throw tipper Falcon, make sure to push him offstage.

Do's and Don'ts

Avoid approaching nair.

Dash Dance dtilt and WD dtilt make Falcon start doing yolo nairs at you which you can stuff with side-b, jab, fair (fastest to slowest out of dash dance).

You have to IASA cancel dtilt immediately or you will get kneed in the face if you undershoot.

 

[outofphase]

So, I recently attended my first tournament, and although I was happy with my performance, I did find that Captain Falcon was one character that I really struggled against. I know it mostly had to do with the fact that none of my friends are Falcon mains, so I'm really unfamiliar with the matchup. I know part of the issue was that I rely a lot on grabs to start combos at low percents, but Falcon is so heavy that I can't really follow up after my throws. On top of that, it seemed like he was able to convert any grab he got on me into a kill or at least 40-50%. Basically, these are the questions I have:

How should I go into my next game against a Falcon? Are there certain moves/actions I should avoid? Any I should watch for? Are there any guaranteed combos Marth has on Falcon to rack up percent?

Additionally, if there are any good guides/ analysis on the matchup, send them my way as well! Thanks guys!

Not to be off-putting or offensive or anything, and its something that alot of newer players do, but vague questions are kind of bad to ask in general. It is hard to give broad advice in Melee when the person asking is too inexperienced to really benefit from it. Like I could tell you that you have to DI to make it as hard as possible for him to combo you (Falcon does have alot of guaranteed combos on Marth at those percents so you can't always DI out), but since you haven't played much, you most likely don't have a solid grasp on how to DI and thus it doesn't do you much help until you learn more about DI. Once you know more about DI, that same advice is just too vague to do any good. Really, at your experience level, you should just try to play as often as possible against as many different people/characters as you can and don't bother thinking too hard about it. You really have to get the foundation from raw experience before conversations can be effective. Again, not being condescending, it may not even apply to you, but there is kind of an experience floor you need to reach in order to develop enough general game sense to be able to benefit from asking questions. Alot of newer players tend to spend time thinking that should be spent playing.

To actually answer the post, Falcon is faster than you, so you can't abuse your movement the way you can against other characters. He has huge death combos on Marth, but also goes pretty even in neitral, so you need to be able to maximize your punishes. The general goal against Falcon, summarized into one phrase is to make him press up-b. Every time he presses up-b, he is helpless and should be dead. Conversely, Falcon's general goal is to get Marth into the air. Once Marth is in the air, he can just mash his face on the controller and Marth dies off the side at 90%. As far as moves to avoid, pretty much all your moves can be punished if he calls you on it. If you check Kadano's thread, he has a chart of grab follow-ups on Falcon, but the general idea after grabbing Falcon is to dthrow tech chase him when he is below 30% unless you can throw him offstage. Above about 30%, you can get reliable follow ups from uthrow, so most people start uthrowing and covering his platform techs/juggling him.

 

[Abel SSB]

if falcon is off stage it should be dead for him even with marth

 

[FE_Hector]

if falcon is off stage it should be dead for him even with marth

Marth's Edgeguards are AMAZING. That should say "especially" with Marth.

 

[P D]

if falcon is off stage it should be dead for him even with marth

abel from kaillera?

 

[Rhino1337]

mew2king does a really indepth set analysis of crimson vs scar (marth vs falcon)
check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yCMjBfq61U

 

[krazyzyko]

As somebody once told me, "Falcon's too fat." They were talking about CGing him, but it's really true. He's too heavy to get any good follow-ups at lower %s off of grabs, so instead try to threaten him with fair and dtilt a little bit more. Fthrow probably isn't too bad in the MU, either. One of the realities of the MU, though, is just that when Falcon hits, he hits HARD. A lot of the top tier characters have a lot of pretty damaging moves they get off really fast, but Falcon probably puts on the most damage the fastest unless you get waveshine'd to death or are just fighting Leffen with his crazy good uairs. Really the only other thing I have to say about the MU (IDK it too well) is that his SH nair range covers so much stage at once, it can get pretty annoying (but that's why Sakurai blessed us with CC grabs :D )

CF has the fastest run in the game. In exchange for that, he also has one of the slowest, most predictable tech rolls and he can't really do much after tech in place but shield or jab.
Soooooo, you can setup some brain dead tech chases on reaction with Marth's back throws (his other throws work too) until you get him off stage or in a platform where is smooth sailing from there.

Just stay grounded and avoid getting grabbed because he can juggle you with ease.

 

[Hunybear]

So, I recently attended my first tournament, and although I was happy with my performance, I did find that Captain Falcon was one character that I really struggled against. I know it mostly had to do with the fact that none of my friends are Falcon mains, so I'm really unfamiliar with the matchup. I know part of the issue was that I rely a lot on grabs to start combos at low percents, but Falcon is so heavy that I can't really follow up after my throws. On top of that, it seemed like he was able to convert any grab he got on me into a kill or at least 40-50%. Basically, these are the questions I have:

How should I go into my next game against a Falcon? Are there certain moves/actions I should avoid? Any I should watch for? Are there any guaranteed combos Marth has on Falcon to rack up percent?

Additionally, if there are any good guides/ analysis on the matchup, send them my way as well! Thanks guys!

lol Don't be offended, but what you stated is much more informative in regards to you're problem than the questions you asked.
For example you have trouble converting grabs and you're getting comboed hard so your DI was probably not on point. Learn to diagnose the problems in your play and then ask questions pertaining to them instead of "How should I go into my next game against a Falcon."

Anyways Falcon!
As you should know, Marth gets a lot of mileage out of his aggressive movement (mostly DD). He uses this movement combined with his amazing range to take control of the stage, effetely boxing in opponents and limiting their options. What makes falcon Such a beast against Marth is that his Movement is just as good as Marths if not better. His Nair can cover the whole stage and Everything he does can combo into something else you won't like.

Neutral
Well this is one of the hardest neutral games to win and it takes a lot of match up knowledge and play time to win. First you don't want to give falcon room to run around! you want to control space with proper zoning and spacing. Be close enough to bait attacks and punish mistakes. Make him play math's game and dictate the pace of the match. (a lot harder than it sounds) You can do this by nullifying his ground movement with perfectly placed D-tilts. Falcon needs the room to move and needs to move to start combo's. Minimalizing his options by taking stage is your primary job. If you take the ground he'll be forced into a corner, because if he start's jumping above you the game is free!! (neither falcon nor Marth wants to be above each other) The whole while you working and stage positioning and baiting unsafe areals you should be fishing for grabs! Once you can grab you can kill!

Notes on falcon

• he approaches primarily with areals
• he will always try to do areals as low to the ground as possible (his high areals are punishable and don't combo well)
• You can crouch cancel (CC) falcons nair until like 80% ( I think)

Now that you know these things, take them into account. This is something about the falcon match up that's very tricky. See most new players will dash away to avoid being hit by an areal approach but falon lives for Nairing you whe your back is turned! he's faster than you. When he's trying his areal approaches (mostly Nairs) you can dash forward and crouch or shield making him land his areals High. These high areals are very unsafe and can be grabbed on reaction. Knowing when to do this takes time.
Final note... don't let him catch your dash away or you will be comboed.

DI
Falcon can punish the hell out of you. With areal strings to knee or just a u-throw/D-throw knee at mid percent's.
When you play falcon your DI needs to be on point! Bad DI makes this MU greatly I falons favorer! So learn this well. When he is going to do an areal combo use COMBO DI!!! (hold down and away) This makes his follow ups a lot more difficult and will force him to end his punishes much sooner. Be ready to DI in at any point tho. You don't want to be caught holding away when the knee connects.
DIing falcon grabs... Honestly his Up-throw knee and D-throw knee are pretty garneted so just try to mix it up.



Converting off of grabs!
This is super important, because grabs are Marths bread and butter opening to a big punish! The only problem is that falcons such a fat ass that he is to heavy to chain grab and also can't get reliable u-Throw follow up's until the late 30%s. (falcon has a weight of 104 making him the 6-7 heaviest character in the game)
Luckily His tech rolls are absolutely terrible!!! You can easily D-throw tech chase him until 40%! (Practice this)
Now at 40% he can be U-throw combed reliably! Something I noticed about the top level marths is that they'll u-throw > immediate up air at these mid percent's. Not a lot of u-tilts at this point. The reason being that u-tilt is not as reliable of a follow up, because you'll most likely get the sour spot. (falcons fat!) Your goal with your combo's is not necessarily to build percent, but to carry him of sage. Remember this when making follow up decisions. If you ever get the opptunity to move his fat *** off stage take it. (Note: Fair > DJ > Nair--- This is an amazing way to get falcon of stage and into edge guarding position.)

Edge Guarding
Edge guarding falcon isn't as free as you might feel. When he has a double jump he can be pretty ambiguous with his recovery. So your first order of business is to bait out the double jump! Which he'll probably be forced to do first as his Up-B is terrible. (just watch closely, there's not a lot he an do.) Remember to not commit to only covering one option because all his recovery options are reachable at this point. Cover his best option first to forces him to pick a less ideal one. Then punish him for whatever choice he makes.
At this point he is knocked off again without a double jump! DON'T GET GEEDY! Tho His life is hanging on a thread his stock is still there. Don't jump out there and do something flashy, just walk up to the edge and assess the situation. If he is above the stage he can still recover high, or fade back and trick you. So when he Up-B's high stay frosty. If he's forced to up-B below the stage.... IDK how you could mess that edge guard up honestly.

We'll i'm sick of writing falcon sick of writing falcon stuff. Practice tech chases and U-throw follow ups. I hope this helped ad isn't too hard to read.