Tink Matchup Guide Thread

[DethM]

I was told I should do this in the Tink Skype group, so here you go.

I'm pretty good at being analytical in general, so here's a mu guide (that the community should help with).

I'd like to eventually cover every character, and more.


Matchup info so far:


Against spacies in general(You generally lose.):

Spoiler

• All of your upward attacks are great, but don't really work until around mid percents.
• Tink is good at avoiding lasers due to good mobility, a great spot dodge, and a decent shield.
• But keep in mind that lazers push your bombs.
• Avoid dodge rolling, and try to tech in place. Your rolls are slow and have a lot of endlag that spacies in particular can take advantage of. A Falco, for instance, will almost always be able to follow up with a lazer into something.
• Don't challenge Falco in the air unless you're at a definite advantage.
• Be cafeful of Wolf and Falco's downairs. They will kill you with them if you're at all off the edge unless you're careful. What generally works is just trying to be in air for as little time as possible - tether if you can, or at least mixup your upspecial by moving to the left or right accordingly. Read where they're going to try and spike you and accomidate. If you don't have room to do this, try AGTing to get some breathing room. AGTs are essential, actually.
• Spacies fall fast. Like; really fast. So they don't want to go too far offstage to try and spike/meteor you. Try staying a bit away from the ledge until you're sure you can make it.
• Recovering high is not a good idea.
• If you have the space, throw some boomerangs and pull out some bombs. They are essential against everyone-especially spacies.
• Grab throw grab throw grab. Pummel a few times. Your grabs are always alright but they're especially golden against spacies.
• Don't be stale, diversify your tactics. Spacies will take advantage with your patterns hugely.
• Your downsmash will obliterate Falco, but against Fox and Wolf you can use it to give you the time to pull out projectiles, or maybe set up an edgeguard.
• Toon Link is also hard to flowchart against because he has just about as many options as you want him to have. Don't underestimate the power of getup attacks, your arrows, and some of your other moves that aren't your favorite to use.
• Try gimping a spacie who is trying to recover with an arrow. It's actually great for intercepting a bad Firefox and the like.
• If you hit a projectile, follow it up with an aerial-but make sure you time it well. Yours don't come out as fast as theirs, so they generally aren't as safe, but if you can catch them with a boomerang or a bomb, take advantage of it.
• As a Toon Link, you'll feel the need to use your pogo stick. Only dair to punish other missed aireals, or if you otherwise know you'll hit it. Spacies will punish this especially well, so make sure you're precise.
• In dealing with Wolf, you'll need to brush up on your combo DI. His follow ups are incredibly fast, so it's hard to deal with. Never get in his side special range.
• Down tilting spacies is fun, but down smashing spacies is especially deadly. Give Fox a taste of his own knockback angle medicine.

Against Peach(70-30 You.):
Against Bowser(60-40 You.):

Edit 1: Added general "Spacies" help section and the "matchup info so far" line to denote where go if you're looking to get directly to the info.

Edit 2: Modified the "Spacies" section some more changed the "Intro" text, general fixes. Added unfinished Peach and Bowser sections. Also added to the "Credits" section.

Credits (people who helped):
@ 2rad
@ Boiko
@Lunchables

 

[2rad]

Alright! This is going to be fun. I'll definitely help.

Here: How about you start by making an article-format post out of our Bowser MU insight on the TL Skype? That had some really good stuff.

If this thread ends up kicking off, you can update the main post to contain spoilers with notable replies in them.

 

[D e l t a]

I definitely feel as with most characters there should be a proper guide on fighting spacies. Against most of the cast you can carelessly put bombs and boomerangs everywhere, but spacies can reflect, clank, or go thru most of TL's stuff. Nair, Bair, lasers, and shine all do exceptionally well and dealing with pressure is a difficulty as TL.

 

[2rad]

Toon Link against spacies:

• Upthrow, Uptilt, Upsmash, Upspecial, Death.
  Rinse and repeat.
• He's also good at avoiding lasers due to good mobility, a great spot dodge, and a decent shield.
• Avoid dodge rolling, and try to tech in place. Your rolls are slow and have a lot of endlag that spacies in particular can take advantage of.
  
• Don't challenge Falco in the air unless you're at a definite advantage.
• Be cafeful of Wolf and Falco's downairs. They will kill you with them if you're at all off the edge unless you're careful. What generally works is just trying to be in air for as little time as possible - tether if you can, or at least mixup your upspecial by moving to the left or right accordingly. Read where they're going to try and spike you and accomidate. If you don't have room to do this, try AGTing to get some breathing room.
• If you have the space, throw some boomerangs and pull out some bombs. They are essential against spacies, if they ever let you pull them out.
• Zair. It's a tragically underrated move.
• Grab throw grab throw grab. Pummel a few times. Your grabs are always alright but they're gold against Fox, Falco, and Wolf, in that order.
• Foxes will try to fox you. Fox is annoying. Punish him by diversifying how you use your moveset. Toon Link is one of the most versatile characters.
• Your downsmash will obliterate Falco, but against Fox and Wolf you can use it to give you the time to pull out projectiles, or maybe set up an edgeguard.
• Toon Link is also hard to flowchart against because he has just about as many options as you want him to have. Don't underestimate the power of getup attacks, your arrows, and some of your other moves that aren't your favorite to use.
• If you hit a projectile, follow it up with an aerial. Your aerials are amazing against spacies, unless you get out-timinged. Yours don't come out as fast as theirs, so they generally aren't as safe, but if you can catch them with a boomerang or a bomb, take advantage of it. If you hit them with an arrow, use it for a relatively free grab or maybe a forward tilt. Your ftilt is pretty good too.
• As a Toon Link, you'll feel the need to use your pogo stick. Only dair to punish other missed aireals, or if you otherwise know you'll hit it. Spacies will punish this especially well.
• In dealing with Wolf, you'll need to brush up on your combo DI. His follow ups are incredibly fast due to the low knockback on some of his more damaging attacks, so it's hard to deal with. Never get in his side special range. Also, his up special does do a lot of damage to you, but if he carries you with it as Wolf is prone to do (and he doesn't kill you), it's a good punish opportunity. Use a nair on your way back down.
  
• Down tilting spacies is fun, but down smashing spacies is especially deadly. Give Fox a taste of his own knockback angle medicine.

That's everything from the top of my head. DethM will probably be able to correct me or add on to what I'm saying.
Any specific questions?

 

[D e l t a]

How would you feel the MU is on spacies? I have not watched much high level action of TL vs Space Animals other than a few games of DVD vs Hax and Lunchables vs other spacies. I feel it's 55/45 with the combo setups TL gets at low %, a chain grab iirc, and high mobility to escape typical space animal stuff. Not to mention the great ledge guards TL has against spacies / vice-versa and raw kill power they both possess.

Also, what did you mean by this?

Toon Link against spacies:

• If you hit a projectile, follow it up with an aireal. Your aireals are amazing against spacies, unless you get out-timinged. Yours don't come out as fast as theirs, so they generally aren't as safe, but if you can catch them with a boomerang or a bomb, take advantage of it. If you hit them with an arrow, use it for a relatively free grab or maybe a forward tilt.

Specifically what is "out-timinged"?



Side note: it's spelled aerial, not aireal. Just an FYI in the future.

 

[Deleted member]

http://pastebin.com/k9B2tTj3

My thoughts on toon link. Subject to change, can argue some things

Toon Link vs all of the space animals is 7-3. His neutral isn't nearly as good as the spacies, his punish game doesn't exist until mid % due to the lack of high BKB on his moves (including his u throw), and your projectiles lose to down b/sex kicks/lasers for the most part.

 

[2rad]

How would you feel the MU is on spacies? I have not watched much high level action of TL vs Space Animals other than a few games of DVD vs Hax and Lunchables vs other spacies. I feel it's 55/45 with the combo setups TL gets at low %, a chain grab iirc, and high mobility to escape typical space animal stuff. Not to mention the great ledge guards TL has against spacies / vice-versa and raw kill power they both possess.
Specifically what is "out-timinged"?
Side note: it's spelled aerial, not aireal. Just an FYI in the future.

I suppose 55-45 sounds about right, but I'm not totally sure. I'd say that, give or take 5 on either side. A skilled laser furry wrecks pretty hard, but so does a good TL.
TL might be combo food, and combo food might be a space animal's primary dietary intake, but he has all those great ways of defending himself - a few of which (the up throw, up tilt, up smash, up special in particular) seem to be almost specifically designed to protect against the fast-falling menace known as Fox (and Falco, too. Also Wolf. But mostly Fox).
In fact, come to think of it, I might even say 60-40 or better. But that's mostly based on 3.02 experience to be honest, and I'm not used to dealing with the new, purportedly BS Fox at all.

Spelling fixed.

By out-timinged, I mean if they have better timing in the air. Because spacies have incredibly fast aerials, it's hard to time your own right against them; they're just not as safe to use as they are against some other characters. Your aerials work incredibly well against spacies, but the tradeoff is that they're risky.

Again, I'm not sure. I don't have a lot of experience with Fox, and my only experience with the other two was with players who play rather low-tech spacies as it is (DethM in particular plays Falco mostly with fundamentals other than pillaring and laser spam).
I guess I'll have to Tink about it.

http://pastebin.com/k9B2tTj3

My thoughts on toon link. Subject to change, can argue some things

Toon Link vs all of the space animals is 7-3. His neutral isn't nearly as good as the spacies, his punish game doesn't exist until mid % due to the lack of high BKB on his moves (including his u throw), and your projectiles lose to down b/sex kicks/lasers for the most part.

I really don't think it's even in the space animal's favor, let alone so bad you should switch characters. Shine can be circumvented with bombs, or with arrow carpeting, and boomerang is relatively safe on it, too. TL's neutral might be lacking, but it's still really good, and as we were already discussing, he can evade and punish spacies pretty well. Also, his punish game is exceptional at low percents - up tilt, smash, throw, special, etc. - especially against spacies. You're definitely right about the punish game other than that, though. It's one of his weak points.
When it comes to spacies, though, he's definitely not the weakest link.

 

[D e l t a]

*sigh* the puns....

 

[2rad]

*sigh* the puns....

Why thank you.

Just got a skype message from DethM:

Tell Lunchables I'll respond on Wensday. No computer access before then. And that I feel honored!

Unfortunately, I cannot Tink of a pertinent pun to end this post with. (That one doesn't count though cause I just used it a minute ago. Stale moves and all.)

 

[D e l t a]

That one doesn't count though cause I just used it a minute ago. Stale moves and all.

I think we could be good friends.

 

[dvd]

The fox matchup definitely sucks. I played three sets against envy (fox main) this past weekend if you're looking for matchup footage (skip game 4 of winners finals): twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/637436617?t=155m43s
Apparently im not allowed to post links until I have at least 10 posts on smashboards.
None of the venues I go to upload anything to youtube, so I have to resort to twitch vods.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, the Fox MU is definitely awful. I have a roy for a reason.

Theres actually no way Toon Link would beat fox 55-45, maybe at a really low level of play? But matchups should always be considered from a high/top level of play.

 

[Boiko]

The fox matchup definitely sucks. I played three sets against envy (fox main) this past weekend if you're looking for matchup footage (skip game 4 of winners finals): twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/637436617?t=155m43s
Apparently im not allowed to post links until I have at least 10 posts on smashboards.
None of the venues I go to upload anything to youtube, so I have to resort to twitch vods.

Was your set with Hax ever uploaded?
Also, hi.

 

[dvd]

yeah its on youtube: /watch?v=zGCmys5eRLU
this is really painful to rewatch, it was my first day playing 3.5 and its just sloppy in general.

HI BOIKO

 

[DethM]

Yo. I'm going to start actually being active in this thread.

First of all: Lunch is most definitely correct. Tink gets completely crushed by Fox. Falco is a lot more close, but Fox and Wolf are some of his worst matchups. 65-35, probably. Give or take.

I'll write up Bowser later. Tink wins, by the way (obviously).

Does anyone have some questions about specific matchups?

@ 2rad
Gonna add some of your notes on spacies to the OP. Edited, of course.

 

[DethM]

Updated the OP, guys.

 

[Shrug]

What's the general consensus on the Sheik matchup? I don't have a whole lot of experience against her, but it seems like both sides have some things going for them. Since Sheik doesn't have any good moves that hit below her, up air juggles are really good against her. Edgeguarding her is simple enough. Just make her land on stage and then dair/fsmash/whatever else.

On the other hand, Sheik's needles and invincible bair make her edgeguarding game against Toon Link extremely strong. She can do some horrible things to you if she lands a grab.

The neutral game seems decent for Toon Link. Needles can stop his projectiles, but the trajectories of Toon Link's bombs and boomerangs can avoid them if done correctly.

What do you guys think?

 

[D e l t a]

I would say don't be caught in the air too much. Sheik can trap TLink's landings very well and if not careful, tilts and Uair/Bair can destroy TLink in the air. Bombs seem to do best and a few boomerang conversions that lead into a kill move. Combo game on Sheik is really easy in PM so the biggest thing in the MU seems to fall on the neutral. Avoid grabs and excess % from needles and the MU becomes less terrible.

 

[DethM]

It's about even, but Sheik wins by a bit, I'd say.

Tink just wins the neutral. They both punish each other like crazy, but Sheik's needles are a huge pain and stuff Tink's recovery.


But then there's what happens when Shiek gets above Tink.

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link vs Falco is just as bad as vs the other spacies. Although falco doesn't have insane mobility, his lasers literally push bombs back at toon link and limit toon links ability to obtain projectiles or move.

Sheik vs. TL is like 55-45 Sheik, at worst 60-40 sheik. Needles are really obnoxious, Fair is really great at stuffing things/vs our poor OOS options, and due to how polarizing toon links recovery is sheik can destroy it.

 

[AndrogynousOkami]

What about the ditto matchup?

 

[2rad]

Tink dittos are really weird, man. As I'm sure OP can attest to, the better Tink doesn't necessarily win.

One thing that might work is to use ground spin, boomerang, and grab more than you usually do.

That sentence was a grammar nightmare. It's two in the morning, please forgive me.

 

[AndrogynousOkami]

How does Toon Link fight Marth?

Also, can we get this stickied?

 

[ChiePet]

I want to know some solid information on Tink vs Peach; I'm a Peach main and we were discussing any MU she had that could possibly be above 50:50, and someone stated that Tink is worse for Peach than Zelda is, but couldn't elaborate for me :T

 

[D e l t a]

I want to know some solid information on Tink vs Peach; I'm a Peach main and we were discussing any MU she had that could possibly be above 50:50, and someone stated that Tink is worse for Peach than Zelda is, but couldn't elaborate for me :T

Personally the projectile game and being outcamped seems terrible. Nair & boomerang / bombs can rack on tons of damage. Conversions into UpB kills are better easy. Deaths will happen fast against Peach, especially if you're not too careful. The sword disjoint and fast speeds rarely trade with Peach's moves, which is how Peach wins MU's.

 

[ChiePet]

Personally the projectile game and being outcamped seems terrible. Nair & boomerang / bombs can rack on tons of damage. Conversions into UpB kills are better easy. Deaths will happen fast against Peach, especially if you're not too careful. The sword disjoint and fast speeds rarely trade with Peach's moves, which is how Peach wins MU's.

Solid info, any way you could expand on that?
I can understand what you mean, I just feel like even before the match, and now after, I still have just that broad knowledge and it feels so winnable but idk.

 

[D e l t a]

Solid info, any way you could expand on that?
I can understand what you mean, I just feel like even before the match, and now after, I still have just that broad knowledge and it feels so winnable but idk.

I'll get back to you with more details this week unless someone replies with more insight before I do.

 

[Shrug]

I don't have much experience against Peach, but from what I have played, it seems pretty good for Toon Link. Toon Link's projectiles are just flat out better than turnips, and hitting with a bomb leads into more than what Peach can usually get out of landing a turnip hit. Peach seems to have trouble getting down, and Toon Link's up air only makes things more difficult.

On top of all of that, I remember several situations in which I was able to land an aerial up b on Peach in situations where other characters could have double jumped out (due to the way she dips down in her double jump).

 

[ChiePet]

I don't have much experience against Peach, but from what I have played, it seems pretty good for Toon Link. Toon Link's projectiles are just flat out better than turnips, and hitting with a bomb leads into more than what Peach can usually get out of landing a turnip hit. Peach seems to have trouble getting down, and Toon Link's up air only makes things more difficult.

On top of all of that, I remember several situations in which I was able to land an aerial up b on Peach in situations where other characters could have double jumped out (due to the way she dips down in her double jump).

Well put; PM has a huge lack of Peach, I've been spreading 'the gospel' while pointing at VaNz, Silly Kyle, and Bladewise to re-emphasize my points, but I have to say she's under represented due to her High Tech Skill Ceiling, my words have gotten through I believe because after Armada dropped Peach for Fox in Melee, He's now playing her in PM (saw last night, AZ Tourny SANDSTORM) and I expected a Boom of Peach players soon. I'll just be happy to know I've spent so long doing all the MU grinding/research to be ahead far enough to help them all out (in progress of taking over and re-writing the entire Peach MU Discussion thread.)

Anyways, I do understand Tink as a potential threat as he has very good neutral tools that cause characters that have strong "approach me" Neutral games to get abused. I'm just thankful I'm solid enough at SDI/DI so I don't die to 4x BAir into Up B at 76%-On.

 

[DethM]

Tink dittos are really weird, man. As I'm sure OP can attest to, the better Tink doesn't necessarily win.

Well they usually do, actually

you just used to always lose because you were bad lol

also my Tink is weird.

 

[DethM]

Btw, guys:

I'll be updating this whenever I can, but my computer broke recently

so I don't always have access to a computer.

I probably will for like the rest of today and tomorrow, though. So if anyone would like some MU advice or whatever, just say the word.

I'd like to write some more comprehensive "guides" to some at some point and put them in the OP.


I actually have an old Bowser guide-thing that I wrote in the Tink chat that I'll add here later.

 

[DethM]

I want to know some solid information on Tink vs Peach; I'm a Peach main and we were discussing any MU she had that could possibly be above 50:50, and someone stated that Tink is worse for Peach than Zelda is, but couldn't elaborate for me :T

Tink is realllly bad for Peach.

 

[ChiePet]

Tink is realllly bad for Peach.

Elaborate.

 

[D e l t a]

Form now, the MU is like Melee Young Link vs Peach.... only now he has a better recovery, grab, sideB, and UpB kills

 

[ChiePet]

A better everything, compared to Young Link, is not exactly elaborating.
BAirs into Up B is always a godly kill option of Tinks, it works from lower percents to kill Floaties.

Sigh.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Yo guys, Wolf main here. We've got a matchup discussion going down here: http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-week-2-toon-link.402336/

We'd really appreciate if some of you could drop by and give us your perspective and knowledge on the matchup. Thanks.

 

[Boiko]

Elaborate.

Tink can literally run circles around Peach and camp with his amazing projectiles. He combos her well horizontally and vertically. She has a hard time getting down from juggles and her slow double jump makes her very susceptible to up+b combos. AGT mitigates the threat of Peach being able to edge guard Tink. His mobility allows him to quickly punish any whiffed attempts at well...anything. If he plays super campy, it's really, really hard for Peach.

 

[DethM]

Tink can literally run circles around Peach and camp with his amazing projectiles. He combos her well horizontally and vertically. She has a hard time getting down from juggles and her slow double jump makes her very susceptible to up+b combos. AGT mitigates the threat of Peach being able to edge guard Tink. His mobility allows him to quickly punish any whiffed attempts at well...anything. If he plays super campy, it's really, really hard for Peach.

It's also bad for her if he plays aggressively, all of his aerials are strong against her.


Updated the OP a bit, guys.

As soon as I get a new computer I'll be working on this thread a lot more, i.e. adding the Bowser stuff.

 

[Ogopogo]

How does tink do vs the spacies now, with the uthrow change making his punish game a lot stronger?

 

[Ola]

AGT mitigates the threat of Peach being able to edge guard Tink

I disagree. Peach can float and has turnips, so she's very well equipped to edge guard Tink. Once he's knocked off there's little variation in what Tink can do to get back. Turnips can gimp his tether recovery and Peach can edgehog his up-B, forcing him to land on stage. Once on stage, a peach that can float cancel effectively, can tear Tink apart with combos.

I'll get a set recorded against a really good Peach soon, because maybe I'm just playing the MU wrong.