Although as I already claimed it's only speculations, I think the way you're supposed to play against puff is what amsah did in the first stock of this match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q76jzEBqUiw
My idea is that you're not supposed to necessarily hit Puff all the time with your projectile. What you need to do is defend your territory, space well (Amsah did it by spamming Bairs) and force her to approach. That's where the projectile comes into use. If Puff doesn't have any then puff doesn't have any tool to prevent her opponent from simply running away all the match. However doing so requires good knowledge of Puff's timings and moves otherwise you get caught. Same knowledge is involved when breaking free from Puff's pressure.
When the opponent (Hungrybox) isn't responding to the situation properly, a whole lot of things can look like the correct way to play a matchup
I really wish I could hit soft moves on a GROUNDED Jigglypuff and not ever get punished for it. Hungrybox handled that first stock hideously. When Amsah whiffs his shield, and is above him for a good period of time with no hitbox to defend himself, and has left himself open for an easy Uair --> Rest, Hungrybox sits. In shield. This would bother me less if things like this didn't happen for several seconds. Hell, he could have at least Baired OoS.
Leaving speculations aside, the first time decent Jigglypuff players showed up in Italy nobody had any idea of what to do and results were affected as a consequence. Eventually, jigglypuff players declined a bit because of people realizing the right things to do.
We've had two years to figure this out. I'll admit that smashers are idiots but if our top level people are dominating with Puff for two years, with the amount of information we have readily available right now, then I am suspicious as to whether or not it's actually just the matchup people are struggling with or if Puff is actually good.
Again, two years is a long time.
Granted, Mango has allegedly said that (other than himself) only two or three people actually fight Puff properly in USA. Jman and Dr. Peepee (and Lucky on a good day). And while I DESPISE banking off tournament results and anything Mango says as the measure of anything, the esteemed Peepee still has a negative record with Hungrybox, even after his spectacular win at Herb 3.
I'm starting to think we know what to do but Puff has answers for them. You might claim she can never be hit if you camp her, but then you also conveniently decide to omit how dangerous it can be to run out of space and get trapped without room to move effectively. You also disregard that her Uair beats and goes through Sheik/Falco/Fox's moveset from below if given proper spacing and timing, and combos into Rest, which makes platform camp much less safe than you're suggesting. You're simply saying, "camp her forever". If that actually worked, then why hasn't it surfaced as the dominant strategy to beat her? Surely one person is gay enough to try it, even in this time of anti-homosexual, play-with-honor propaganda spawned by Brawl's campy environment. You can easily find outlier players.
What's happening in the US is kinda the same thing (although Italian players are skill-wise nowhere near the Americans, speaking both of Jigglypuff and other mains). Jigglypuff players showed up and started winning. There's two possibilities now: either people figure out how to beat Puff and Puff starts declining again or they don't (assuming there actually is something they're not doing atm) in which case a lot of people will switch to Jigglypuff. Neither of those things happened so far, and it has been a while already. That's why I'm not sure about how to judge this issue.
I suppose this is fair, though I'm not sure how applicable it is to the various placements circulating. For one, not everyone has suggested that Puff is the absolute best character. Many have placed her at the third spot. If Puffs continue to perform better than other characters, but other characters have a collectively better result (say, they take the top 3-16 spots) then, while I agree it's not fair to place her at number one, what about third? Second?
Her results/frequency in tournaments are pretty much like Puff's. Apart from this I don't feel a considerable gap between the two. To me, they're kind of even and any of the two can be on top.
If your argument doesn't pertain to Peach, don't mention her.
You said in an earlier post you were only unsure about Marth vs Puff, but now you secretly admit you group them together and you could put one above the other? Consistency, please.
I've heard very little about Darc, did he recently do something outstanding I happened to miss? (I'm not being ironic, I seriously lost sight of the smash scene for a while).
He wins locals on EC when people like Hax and whatever enter. He's very good.
King has been an outstander but has been off for too long. As you already claimed we should give more credit to the present scene rather than the past.
Indeed. And if we give credit where credit is due, we have 2 great Jigglypuffs, 1 great Peach, 1 good Jigglypuff, and a handful of good Peaches. I think the second great Jigglypuff is worth more than the extra "good" Peaches.
Apart from this no, we don't need to hit a certain benchmark. As long as even one player is able to use his character properly, that's enough to convince me of the character's potential. However the more people exploit that potential, the higher are the chances that potential resides in the character and not in the player's skills. Jigglypuff has surely been underestimated but I'm still unsure of whether the potential resides in her or in the players exploiting her.
Again, are you suggesting we need to wait another year before we can say, "okay guys, I guess Puff is good".
If Jigglypuff only requires 3 moves, not much skills (HBox is appearently supposed to be bad in your argument) and ***** all the cast, why is the amount of Jigglypuff players so inferior to the one of Fox, Falco and Sheik players? If a character ***** all the cast and requires no skills there really is no reason not to pick him up. That's what happened with Metaknight in Brawl. More over, if she really were so easy to play, more people would have found ways of exploting her properly. This is the reason for which I claim that although Mango and HBox brought their character to a new level, credit still belongs to them. The way I see it, Jigglypuff's not beating Sheik, Fox and Falco. Mango and HBox are. That said, this is just my opinion.
Hungrybox, I feel, is not an outlier player in the respect that Mango is. It isn't fair to say that Jigglypuff is beating these top level players, since it's clearly a group effort, but Hungrybox has (IMO) demonstrated that you can abuse aspects of Jigglypuff's game to degrees that hadn't been previously used. Especially regarding being safe and hitting Rest on recoveries.
