Tier List v10 - Phase II - Viable (Results in 1st Post!)

[Marc]

Over did better than you'd expect from someone at his level though. Amsah is better, but I think he'd have more trouble with M2K's Marth.

Speaking of Marth, isn't he the biggest underachiever by far in the top tier? Then again, he's not exactly stellar matchupwise and I only see M2K do anything worthwhile with him... and he uses Sheik and Fox a lot too. Maybe Marth should drop to high tier.

 

[ZoSo]

Wish I could say I disagreed with you, Marc. =/

 

[unknown522]

the world needs more good marth players.

Also, I JV5 stocked someone's falcon with falco yesterday. LOL

 

[Pink Reaper]

This tier list is terrible it doesnt even BEGIN to take trueskill into account

 

[ZoSo]

the world needs more good marth players.

Yeah...

 

[Mew2King]

cuz i was playing/doing better the day before and im stupid

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Over did better than you'd expect from someone at his level though. Amsah is better, but I think he'd have more trouble with M2K's Marth.

Speaking of Marth, isn't he the biggest underachiever by far in the top tier? Then again, he's not exactly stellar matchupwise and I only see M2K do anything worthwhile with him... and he uses Sheik and Fox a lot too. Maybe Marth should drop to high tier.

My traditional-oriented view on smash made me unaware of this for a long time. Marth is indeed declining and strongly match up dependant. If he can gimp (spacies) he can do well, but if he can't (Puff, others) he'll have terrible killing problems (even worse than Falco, who was once considered the Top Tier who suffered this weakness the most). Not to mention, he doesn't have a projectile which affects most of his match ups. He definitely lost his spot as a top character, expecially because people (mostly top tier users) have found ways of breaking through his priority barrier, forcing Marth players to work harder to keep control and distance. This reflects a lot in the gameplay differences between old school marth players (Ken in US, Ek in Europe) who spent most of their time airborne and new school marth players (M2K in US, Dahean and Ice in Europe) who are forced to retain their attacks unless 100% sure of landing a hit. Marth is very easy to punish hands down and some characters can riddicolously combo him. However, I'm still not prone to drop him to another tier because he can still beat half of the cast simply keeping them away with his sword. Also, as long as mew2king keeps doing fine with him I'll still be convinced he can be as good as the other characters. Apart from this, Fox, Puff, Sheik, Peach and Falco are definitely better choices nowadays.

P.S. On a side note, I think the modern Marth metagame doesn't involve enough use of down B. I'm curious to hear the opinion of Marth players on this point.

 

[Marc]

Marth's best playing style is a defensive one, but he has no tools (projectiles) to make an opponent approach aside from getting a lead. He's relatively open after moves and I think his matchups against space animals are only around even. He loses to Sheik, has a slight advantage against Peach and I'm not sure about Puff. It kind of comes down to looking at all matchups in the game or just looking at the important matchups, but he's not even particularly great against the high tiers. I also think M2K really is an outlier for his character, whereas there are two Puff users at that level. I only started realising all this after fiddling around with Marth myself more. Apart from a few matchups, it's just frustrating.

Down+B doesn't come out as fast as a shine or whatever and leaves him wide open. It's still a decent tool against Falco who approaches with lasers, but I don't see many uses otherwise. If your opponent gets predictable, there usually are more rewarding options than counter.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Marth's best playing style is a defensive one, but he has no tools (projectiles) to make an opponent approach aside from getting a lead. He's relatively open after moves and I think his matchups against space animals are only around even. He loses to Sheik, has a slight advantage against Peach and I'm not sure about Puff. It kind of comes down to looking at all matchups in the game or just looking at the important matchups, but he's not even particularly great against the high tiers. I also think M2K really is an outlier for his character, whereas there are two Puff users at that level. I only started realising all this after fiddling around with Marth myself more. Apart from a few matchups, it's just frustrating.

Down+B doesn't come out as fast as a shine or whatever and leaves him wide open. It's still a decent tool against Falco who approaches with lasers, but I don't see many uses otherwise. If your opponent gets predictable, there usually are more rewarding options than counter.

The general feeling I've seen around is that puff wins against Marth because of Marth's problem in killing her. Marth has more range but Puff appearently has ways of breaking in. Since I have no specific experience in the match up, my feeling was that it should be even or in Marth's advantage, but the recent trend of Puff prevailing seems to have proven me wrong.

Apart from that yes, match ups involving top tiers should receive more attention. And Marth has got no strong lead there. However M2k's dominance is still enough for me, Marth might just have a quite hard learning curve nowadays (I started fiddling around with Marth too). But he definitely isn't a Top Tier like the others, not anymore.

 

[Marc]

Jigglypuff has deceptive range on her back air that goes a long way in matching Marth's fair. She can edgeguard him pretty well too, while it's just a spacing game for Marth with very few guaranteed setups. I'd say it's a slight advantage for Puff, but I'm also not experienced enough with those characters.

I suppose Strawhat is the second Marth in the world now, but I can only name like five good players who sometimes use Marth and are still active. =/

 

[Tero.]

I suppose Strawhat is the second Marth in the world now, but I can only name like five good players who sometimes use Marth and are still active. =/

 

[Marc]

Ice also uses Sheik. He'd be one of those good players who uses Marth (but not exclusively, was my point) and I don't think he's more known for his Marth per se.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Ice also uses Sheik. He'd be one of those good players who uses Marth (but not exclusively, was my point) and I don't think he's more known for his Marth per se.

He actually is, and the funny thing is that this proves your point lol. His Marth and Sheik are equally good but his Sheik is overshadowed by the amount of good Sheik players in Europe. While his Marth is outstanding. Apart from this, I really don't know who's supposed to be better between him and Dahean. Only sure thing is he's better VS Spacies while Dahean is better VS Sheik.

 

[Marc]

Haha. I admittedly haven't seen much of his Marth because we just play the Sheik ditto in tournaments, but if his Marth is on an equal level, then it's good. But this still doesn't take away from the fact that Marth is unplayable without a secondary. Does Strawhat have one? I'm not sure, but both M2K and Ice rely a lot on their other characters.

 

[Tero.]

Ice mostly picks Marth against Spacies and Floaties and Sheik against Marth and Sheik.
When I think of Ice I mostly think of him as a Marth player tho.

Strawhat also plays Sheik, Falco and Jigglypuff.

 

[Marc]

Then there really is no strict Marth main left, whereas every other top tier has a player who mains the character exclusively.

 

[Tero.]

Then there really is no strict Marth main left, whereas every other top tier has a player who mains the character exclusively.

Well to be fair I think Strawhat used his secondaries less than Amsah used his (and I guess you consider Amsah as Sheik exclusive?).
I think he can be considered as a strict Marth main, but I haven't watch all his recent tournament matches.

 

[Marc]

Yeah, I consider Amsah a Sheik exclusive and considered Strawhat a Marth exclusive until your previous post. ;p Okay, there's one Marth exclusive then.

But well, this is getting somewhat sidetracked. Time to move on.

 

[Deleted member]

we should probably work on this more, the MD people are getting angry.

tero, whats the next move. I haven't been keeping track of this project (obviously).

 

[Skler]

I read the MD thread on this and it made me smile. I still think my list is the best!

Actually let's go with this.

Fox
Falco
Puff
Sheik
----------------
Falcon <--- piss off the Falcons who say they have a bad character
Peach
Marth
Ice Climbers
----------------
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Samus

I'd consider moving Ganondorf up above the doctor and maybe moving Falcon below Peach. Actually, let's put Falcon in top tier.

 

[Pink Reaper]

lets put zelda in mid tier just to make cosmo **** in his pants.

 

[Tero.]

we should probably work on this more, the MD people are getting angry.

tero, whats the next move. I haven't been keeping track of this project (obviously).

So let me give you a brief summary of what has happened during your absence:

I was trying to get this thing done, so we did a few polls to determine the voting system for the new tier list.
We "agreed" (well it was more of a decision by majority than an actual agreement) on voting characters in groups ("viable" and "non-viable") first, then decide on the order and finally add Tiers.

We started the voting and finished it for the "viable" part (Results can be seen here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10460279#post10460279 ), contribution on the "non viable" (Lowtier) part was rather slim and votes were differing too much so we figured we might do something different from the normal character ranking (like not ordering them or w/e).

Well anyway after having the votes tallied and results posted for the viable group Slhoka and Hyuga had concerns about the validity of the results because apparently according to them there wasn't enough discussion and not enough votes.

And here we are now, nothing has been done since.

I offered to redo the vote (maybe with a more "normal" system, even tho I think the one I used worked out perfectly well) and PM every BR member, but I won't do it unless I got the full support of the leaders, because I'm going nuts if I do all the work again for nothing.

 

[pockyD]

I think the results of the voting is plenty good as a baseline for discussion; I certainly wouldn't consider it a wasted effort

Ideally, the people whose votes deviate the most from the list (i.e. the people who have puff as 7th or fox as 3rd) or people who feel adamantly about some position in the list (for example, puff being higher than sheik) should provide some justification

At the very least, we can lock in the ICs as #8!

I personally am content with the way the list has turned out so far, as it matches up pretty closely with my ballot so I have no real strong feelings against it

 

[Deleted member]

iirc falcon has been performing better than sheik for the past year which would put him at 4th. why are the falcon mains so emo anyway?

@ tero: well I'm not a leader anymore so I can't offer the "go ahead" but frankly I think you should do it anyway....in a little bit, I have an idea.

I think we should add a handful of people to the MBR, both for new blood and to make the lower half of this list more accurate. So far I've been very impressed with some names that we don't have yet like axe or rhan that happen to specialize in the lower tiers. How would you feel about pausing the tier list for a couple weeks to grab 5-6 new people to help? If it's cool with everyone else I can take the admissions as my own little mini-project.

cactuar, unknown, hyuga send me some feedback. if you feel that the tier list should be isolated to our current membership I'd be fine with that too but it seems that we have hit some kind of stalemate.

edit: and yes I like this tiering system a lot, it seems very concise and clean.

I'd like to start sifting through names, so I went and found some

rhan
axe
swiftbass
solid jake
sveet
shiri
st. viers
shroomed
dj nintendo
linguini
sethlon
macd

 

[Pink Reaper]

dark sonic over sveet, possibly mexican if he's still active and why macd?

 

[Tero.]

I totally support Axe, Swiftbass and Sveet.
Also what about people like Kira-, joeplicate, SleepyK, etc.?

And why isn't Lovage in here?

As for Eruopeans I could think of people like Armada/Aniolas and Fuzzyness

Edit: I'm cool with waiting a few weeks to start again with the Tier List.

 

[Deleted member]

I totally support Axe, Swiftbass and Sveet.
Also what about people like Kira-, joeplicate, SleepyK, etc.?

And why isn't Lovage in here?

As for Eruopeans I could think of people like Armada/Aniolas and Fuzzyness

Edit: I'm cool with waiting a few weeks to start again with the Tier List.

I dislike Lovage in that he's essentially a shadow/repetition on Mango, a poster we haven't exactly advocated for in the first place. Lovage meat-rides harder than most porn stars.

 

[pockyD]

i'm on board with axe sleepyk and swiftbass

i don't have anyone (that's been mentioned) that i want to outright say 'no' to

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Nothing that I've seen DJ Nintendo do/say/post has been especially endearing, in my observation. Strong no to Mexican.

I'll have to look into some of the other posters but I think Axe, SleepyK and Shroomed would get my vote as it stands. Joeplicate probably also, to complete the Deep Norcal Trifecta (DNT).

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm curious about why you want Shroomed. This might just be because I've never read any of his posts outside of the regional boards, but he doesn't really stand out to me.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

He does (or used to, haven't checked recently) post in the Doc forums with helpful stuff, and he is a motivated guy who might bring more discussion to this room. And I think that latter trait is something we might prioritize now.

 

[Pink Reaper]

mexican not in pac west boards is a pretty good poster sheridan >.>

 

[ZoSo]

At the very least, I strongly endorse Swiftbass and SleepyK.

 

[unknown522]

here's my votes:

rhan - no
axe - yes
swiftbass - yes
solid jake - no
sveet - no
shiri - yes
st. viers - no
shroomed - no
dj nintendo - definite no
linguini - no
sethlon - yes?
macd - sure

Also what about people like Kira-, joeplicate, SleepyK, etc.?

And why isn't Lovage in here?

As for Eruopeans I could think of people like Armada/Aniolas and Fuzzyness

Edit: I'm cool with waiting a few weeks to start again with the Tier List.

I agree to armada, sleepyK, and kira.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I disagree with armada because of his rabid "Ban jiggs" mentality. We already have m2k back here.

 

[Divinokage]

I definitely agree with Axe.. but other than that I'm not so sure with everyone else.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Tero, I never said that we need to redo the list, I just meant that at that time, I hadn't seen enough input on the matter to consider it a complete project. However, since you're essentially leading the project, if you think it's best to do a restart on the voting or format, that's fine too. Maybe we should get a few more new members, give them a week to discuss, and then vote?

Marth mains. Norcal has a few that are pretty good. Haven't you seen Falcomist vs DSW? Bob$ also mains Marth now, and there's a kid named PewPewU who is really good as well.

I still really haven't seen much discussion about Puff's position given how widely the votes for her position varied. I put Puff as 5th, under Sheik and Marth. I think Sheik has better matchups against Fox Falco and Marth than Puff does, and I think Sheik-Puff is slightly in Sheik's favor, so I'm really interested in why Puff > Sheik to some. Puff vs Marth I'm not as certain about.

 

[DoH]

lol @ djnintendo and macd

 

[Tero.]

Jigglypuff and Peach are ridiculous characters and both should be Top Tier.
Fox is totally overrated and should be below Jigglypuff, Peach, Falco and possibly Sheik.

God, I wish we would play NTSC over here, PAL is a joke.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I still really haven't seen much discussion about Puff's position given how widely the votes for her position varied. I put Puff as 5th, under Sheik and Marth. I think Sheik has better matchups against Fox Falco and Marth than Puff does, and I think Sheik-Puff is slightly in Sheik's favor, so I'm really interested in why Puff > Sheik to some. Puff vs Marth I'm not as certain about.

Off matchups alone, Puff is worse than Sheik.

I think Puff beats Sheik though and does better against Falco. She's also better vs Ice Climbers, I think. Sheik's better against everyone else.