Tier List v10 - Phase II - Viable (Results in 1st Post!)

[pockyD]

m2k had been a clear #2 in the states with his sheik for a looong time. that's pretty good. before that, kdj's sheik was a huge deal as well

i didn't mean to slight the PAL-playing regions, but i thought it was widely accepted and known that this tier list (if it is made) would pertain to NTSC characters. It simply doesn't make sense to me for both formats to share the same tier list if the characters are inherently different

so the point is, we play NTSC and we are going to continue to play NTSC (despite the fact that PAL is more balanced; it's simply impractical to mass import PAL disks though). There's no reason for an American sheik player to arbitrarily handicap himself and not abuse the dthrow if he's well aware that the dthrow will always be there

 

[KirbyKaze]

well dthrow is still the best throw in PAL, you can still tech chase falcon/fox/falco/sheik and well the difference with the other chars is, no matter what they do in NTSC, they are ****ed, in PAL they are ****ed if they DI wrong

@ KK
because other stuff like air recovery etc comes into play, its not only a matter of the right DI

I think you can see my confusion here.

 

[Luma]

well m2k only used sheik in a couple matchups and kdj was good for some tournaments, but yeah ok still a good sheik

well i never said you should switch to PAL, def not

and i also never said you should stop absing stuff, only that PAL sheiks are WAY better because we know what to do even when i cant get a grab
if you take the PAL playinstyle and import it to NTSC = win


@ KK

i am friggn tired (8 in the morning here, didnt slept) so i might make some stupid point which doenst make any sense at all xDD
what i am trying so say is that even if you DI correct you still have to do other stuff to not get punished, also for the correct di you have to know your % and sometimes checking your % and then DI can be to late for the "perfect" DI
there is always room for mistakes

 

[Pink Reaper]

LOL

m2k went majority sheik for a good year and still does(well not any more cus he's apparently retired again for the 12th time)

Also i understand your pride as a PAL player here but insinuating that PAL Sheiks somehow are better than NTSC sheiks because sheik doesnt have her normal Dthrow is ludicrous. NTSC sheiks ALSO know how to play without Dthrow because grabs arent some amazing guaranteed thing in NTSC, they have to work for them too. The only difference is they have better punishment options, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Marc]

Falco is slightly better in NTSC, it's easier to combo and spike with that dair.

Sheik is MUCH better in NTSC because that downthrow basically turns the Peach matchup around (which is crippling in PAL) and also leads to guaranteed kills against characters like Marth (where a stronger up-air also helps). Her downthrow is still good in PAL for tech chases, but that's significantly easier in NTSC as well because you have more time to make a choice. Then again, Fox is also much better in NTSC, so I'm not sure how different the space animal matchups are. I'm not even sure if I'd vote all that differently for a NTSC tier list orderwise.

Luma was saying in a confusing way that Sheik is underachieving in the US, which might be because people rely on her broken assets too much and become predictable. I think it has more to do with space animals being so dominant and two Jigglypuffs being the best players, but whatever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think the fact that nobody plays the numerous characters that she auto-wins against or has a significant advantage over is aggravating. Finding a Marth in bracket is so rare now -.-

Also, Pink Reaper, you're just going to have to accept that a lot of Europe thinks that Sheik's NTSC D-throw is a JCable Metaknight Tornado that comes out frame 1 and fires projectile Falco Shines.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Nah bro, only Jigg's down B does that.

 

[Marc]

It kind of depends on your tier list approach. If you average out Sheik's matchups she's that much better in NTSC because many are almost auto-win because of the downthrow. If you only look at the tournament relevant matchups it's like I said... easier times vs Peach, Marth and basically the entire high tier, but not so much space animals.

No need to exaggerate our point of view on the downthrow, but it is really gay and definitely makes many matchups really onesided. Other than that it's downright weird to play with if you're used to PAL, I really hated going Sheik at Pound and Adam went pretty much all Marth because of it.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

If we're just going to get into a contest of "this good player beat this other good player", I'll simply cite that Mango's Falco ***** Mew2King's Sheik (get that friendlies with Amsah garbage out of here -- friendlies aren't legit at all) and Overtriforce lost to Dr. Peepee, in a matchup that he's supposed to elegantly ****.

That's why earlier while answering to Hyuga I mentioned that debate will always helplessly be strongly opinion dependent. Mango beats M2K's Sheik. Is it because it's Mango or because of the match up? That depends on how you wanna interpret it. The way I interpret it is that it's because it's Mango, as I've seen Sheik players beat Falco players more often than the other way around (speaking of top level play, at least). Apart from this Amsah said the best Falco he played in US was Mango, and afaik they went pretty even. Had Amsah played a tournament set against PP, I'd mention that but unfortunately they didn't, so I can only refer to friendlies between the two. As for overtriforce, I never played him once in my whole life so I have no idea of his real skill level or knowledge of the match up. And 55:45 doesn't mean Sheik elegantly ***** Falco.

As for the late Falco Dair, it forces Falco players to change their timings here in PAL. But doesn't really change edgeguard nor comboes. When pulling out Dair just wait till last moment and you'll be fine.

Different story is Sheik's Dthrow which is still broken here in PAL but not even close to what is in NTSC.

 

[KirbyKaze]

iirc, Overtriforce was advertised to be the epic Falco destroyer with his awesome powershielding and aerial spacing nonsense and he couldn't beat PP. PP isn't even the best Falco.

I see it as Mango doesn't attack Sheik at the edge (in tournament) to be B-thrown off twice per game and does better than the other Falcos because of it. And he knows how to deal with her tilts, needle camping, aerials, and other gayness, whereas many other Falcos don't adjust to it at all. She's a different kind of matchup because she works well out of shield and has the aerial priority to smack him around if he tries to approach foolishly.

You have to play boring against her, and gay her back. Otherwise she'll just gimp you. I don't think many Falcos really adjust to that style effectively.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

iirc, Overtriforce was advertised to be the epic Falco destroyer with his awesome powershielding and aerial spacing nonsense and he couldn't beat PP. PP isn't even the best Falco.

I see it as Mango doesn't attack Sheik at the edge (in tournament) to be B-thrown off twice per game and does better than the other Falcos because of it. And he knows how to deal with her tilts, needle camping, aerials, and other gayness, whereas many other Falcos don't adjust to it at all. She's a different kind of matchup because she works well out of shield and has the aerial priority to smack him around if he tries to approach foolishly.

You have to play boring against her, and gay her back. Otherwise she'll just gimp you. I don't think many Falcos really adjust to that style effectively.

Giving credit to advertisement and hype is for people outside the BRoom. I wish I could comment properly, but having never played Overtriforce in my life I can't provide any useful information about his level at all nor find reasons for him losing to PP. To me, he just lost lol. That's all I know.

Apart from this, the way I see it Mango is better than Amsah. So I can't think of any reason for him going even with Amsah when playing Falco other than the match up being to his disadvantage. As you mentioned Mango knows how to handle Sheik, and Amsah surely knows how to handle Falco. So I don't feel like character knowledge is playing a big role here. Hopefully Apex will clarify the situation.

And yes, match up requires a specific playing style. I have no idea of the reason, but according to Amsah I seem to be pretty decent against Sheik.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think if we're going to weigh friendlies as the epic winner of all that is just, and use them as serious indicators of the matchup, then this one time Mew2King 4-stocked Jman's Fox with Jigglypuff...

 

[Pink Reaper]

Bro, this one time, Zhu JV 5 stocked a kids Falco with Puff.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That *****.

 

[KevinM]

I did that to a falco in pools one time with bowser :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

.......................................

 

[Pink Reaper]

i literally refuse to accept that. there exists no falco that cant remember what the b button does.

 

[Mew2King]

i think falco beats sheik slightly, but its not a bad matchup at all. I feel sheik does better against fox than people think also. Sheik vs Falco is a lot of shield stuff and gimping on sheik's part

 

[ZoSo]

I thought we were over the whole "PAL Sheiks are better b/c dthrow" thing.

 

[KevinM]

i literally refuse to accept that. there exists no falco that cant remember what the b button does.

*dies laughing*

 

[KirbyKaze]

I thought we were over the whole "PAL Sheiks are better b/c dthrow" thing.

Omg it's other dave.

sup other dave.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

i think falco beats sheik slightly, but its not a bad matchup at all. I feel sheik does better against fox than people think also. Sheik vs Falco is a lot of shield stuff and gimping on sheik's part

Good point, I've been recently changing my mind about Sheik VS Fox as well, but I'm really not sure of the outcome. I don't feel as experienced in using Fox and I have even less opportunities to play good Sheik players. So I can't really judge properly. I feel it's kind of evenish too, probably 55:45 for Fox.

 

[Marc]

Friendlies sometimes are the best data available, so I don't get the groanworthy ridiculing of arguments involving them seeing how they're never the main point. Over is great against Marth because the only other really good player from Spain uses him, which clearly shows in his tournament set against M2K. Other matchups he's not known to be particularly stellar at, he's just a good player. Amsah is the best Sheik to judge the Sheik-Falco matchup by really and I think he backed that up at Pound for as much as he was able to.

Fox vs Sheik definitely is an advantage for Fox, either 60-40 or 55-45.

 

[ZoSo]

Omg it's other dave.

sup other dave.

Not much. Mostly passing the time with Diablo 2 because I have nobody to play Smash with.

I miss you guys! When are you all coming to the states again?

 

[Divinokage]

Do you play Hardcore? Or USeast?

 

[Mew2King]

over is okay vs marth but i was playing horrid vs him is the main reason. i won both games the day before of marth sheik, i hate that MU. i think i know more about sheik marth than over does slightly not 100% sure tho. the MU is impossible

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Bro, this one time, Zhu JV 5 stocked a kids Falco with Puff.

LOL I once JV 5ed someone's Ganon with Puff, but I don't remember doing this to a Falco LOL.

When was this?!

 

[ZoSo]

Do you play Hardcore? Or USeast?

East Ladder. NO interest in Hardcore whatsoever.

 

[Luma]

do you atleast play pvp or just pvm? well since its on east it doenst quite matter cause its full of cheating *****es over there ^^

 

[unknown522]

play on both son.

I haven't played in a year or so, but paladin's are probably still broken as **** in D2.

 

[ZoSo]

do you atleast play pvp or just pvm? well since its on east it doenst quite matter cause its full of cheating *****es over there ^^

I just started playing again. Don't have the gears for PVP.

Ryan: Yep.

 

[Divinokage]

I just started playing again. Don't have the gears for PVP.

Ryan: Yep.

No hardcore? You are not a true warrior! I have a level 92 barb there now. I have Breath of the Dying.

 

[Luma]

zoso are you on d2jsp? i might give you some FG so you can get back to pvp =D

 

[ZoSo]

You are not a true warrior!

*slinks off to cry in a corner*

zoso are you on d2jsp? i might give you some FG so you can get back to pvp =D

Yes I am and OMFG I WOULD LOVE YOU FOREVER.

 

[unknown522]

aww ****it, my account is probably disabled now or something.

I used to have good gear.

Also, FoH paladin in PvP is so stupid.

And smiters I guess.

Also, barbs suck kage....no offense.

 

[ZoSo]

Smite is SO good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

My ability to travel is diminished significantly because of my new job, which involves me being at work on Saturdays.

 

[ZoSo]

Lame.

 

[Pink Reaper]

LOL I once JV 5ed someone's Ganon with Puff, but I don't remember doing this to a Falco LOL.

When was this?!

it was sheen lol. you jv 5'd his falco according to him(and you)

 

[Deleted member]

over is okay vs marth but i was playing horrid vs him is the main reason. i won both games the day before of marth sheik, i hate that MU. i think i know more about sheik marth than over does slightly not 100% sure tho. the MU is impossible

why would you willingly engage in a match that you consider impossible after having the benefit of playing him the day before?