D
Deleted member
Guest
agreed, I really have no idea how doc is ever supposed to beat fox/falco/sheik.
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Tier List v10 - Phase II - Viable (Results in 1st Post!)
- Thread starter Tero.
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Just complain about how it feels like Brawl, make subtle references to how it's as fun as a Jiggs ditto, etc.
It won't work against people that want to win though.
It won't work against people that want to win though.
HyugaRicdeau
Baller/Shot-caller
I personally enjoy Puff dittos, as long as they are on stages not named DL64 or KJ64.
unknown522
Some guy
you sir, are outrageous!
Lol, Raynex and I had our first puff ditto ever last week.
Terrible....
Lol, Raynex and I had our first puff ditto ever last week.
Terrible....
Aldwyn McCloud
Smash Ace
Whoever mains Falco and complains about Doc clearly doesn't understand how lame the match up is for Doc. This is probably the match up I know best, considering the smash player I used to train with was a Doc main. He was no Kirby Squad, but was still pretty decent. When watching today Shroomed's videos I don't feel like he added anything new to Doc's metagame compared to what Kirby Squad used to do, just seems to be better at doing Doc's regular stuff. So I don't think there really is any reason to assume the Falco VS Doc match up has changed that much since the old times, in which Falco was a terrible opponent for Doc. Falco has priority control, moves able to neutralize Doc's CC game and Utilt that used properly can **** up Doc's air moveset completely. Falco only needs good spacing and good timing to win the match up. Falco players who lose the match up probably just aren't patient enough.
As for the IC match up I have very little experience in it and personally I hate it quite a lot. Putting pressure on them is quite hard and they can outprioritize Falco's moves quite easily. People say that Falco's Fsmash solves all problems but I'm not sure about this.
Falco VS Puff should stand somewhere between even and in slight advantage for Puff. I used to consider Puff as the worst match up of Falco but as a matter of fact I never had that many problems from Puff players as compared to Marth, Sheik and others. The lack of good Puff players in Europe surely matters however Dr. PP has convinced me the match up isn't really impossible at all.
Also, Falco is at disadvantage at least with Sheik and Marth, although the degree of disadvantage he is at is debatable.
He is indeed easier to play than Fox, but I really don't understand how he's supposed to be better considering Fox can combo better, kill faster, move faster.
And no, he definitely can't win solely off random spam.
As for the IC match up I have very little experience in it and personally I hate it quite a lot. Putting pressure on them is quite hard and they can outprioritize Falco's moves quite easily. People say that Falco's Fsmash solves all problems but I'm not sure about this.
Falco VS Puff should stand somewhere between even and in slight advantage for Puff. I used to consider Puff as the worst match up of Falco but as a matter of fact I never had that many problems from Puff players as compared to Marth, Sheik and others. The lack of good Puff players in Europe surely matters however Dr. PP has convinced me the match up isn't really impossible at all.
The Falco VS Fox match up used to be considered even for a long time, is there a reason to consider it not even anymore now apart from Mango going Falco and whooping the **** out of everyone?
Also, Falco is at disadvantage at least with Sheik and Marth, although the degree of disadvantage he is at is debatable.
He is indeed easier to play than Fox, but I really don't understand how he's supposed to be better considering Fox can combo better, kill faster, move faster.
And no, he definitely can't win solely off random spam.
unknown522
Some guy
lamchops, zhu, and a few others just got burned.
debatable. Though fox barely ever beats falco in tourney.
he does not have a disadvantage vs either one.
falco has the better combos definitely. Also speed doesn't matter when he slows down all the other characters and controls them.
have you not seen the top level players?
D
Deleted member
Guest
I question the integrity of any MBR member that states sheik having some advantage on falco.
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I consider it pretty much even, but Amsah destroys Falco. Sheik can gimp him really well.
I consider it pretty much even, but Amsah destroys Falco. Sheik can gimp him really well.
Blame it on stage advantage lol.
unknown522
Some guy
or maybe zhu is bad at the matchup
Aldwyn McCloud
Smash Ace
Or maybe Sheik just beats Falco. Amsah's gameplay speaks clear and as long as no other Falco able to beat him shows up there won't be any proof of Falco having any advantage over Sheik. Best thing I've seen so far is Mango going even with Amsah's Sheik but that's just because Mango is way better than any other player. Apart from this, Amsah claimed 55:45 for Sheik and I agree. Not an impossible match up, but not in Falco's favor for sure.
Mango didn't. I understand it's mango, but the feeling I get is that apart from better overall skills he had better spacing, timing and patience on his side. Stay patient and Doc just won't win lol.
I still hear no logical argument. And Lucky still beats Zhu if I recall right.
Speed does matter when it means better tech chasing skills and better reaction times. Control isn't something Falco's opponent can't break free from.
As for the comboes I have the feeling it mostly depends on the specific match up.
Did you know I used to be one myself? (Yeah I'm no Mango but seriously.. Falco doesn't win solely off random spam. Hiko's good times are long gone.)
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,688
Last time someone said "go ahead" we finished the first half of the Tier List and had to redo it because there wasn't enough discussion.
pockyD
Smash Legend
which basically means very few people actually care about making a tier list and that we probably shouldn't release one that will clearly be half-@ssed
HyugaRicdeau
Baller/Shot-caller
I'm all for a new tier list as long as it is three-quarter- to full-assed.
Something I want people to think about is theory vs data, specifically, how far should we take our theoretical notions about a character's ability as a valid argument as opposed to what actually manifests in tournament results? We don't need to have uniform agreement on this, but it is important for each person to be able to justify how much weight they give to each aspect - if not to everyone else then at least to themselves. For example, my current opinion that Falcon > Peach is based mostly on observation of tournament records. Many people have made good points that Peach is in theory a better character. If that's the case, then how far does that argument compensate for (what I perceive to be) CF's general outplacing of Peach in tournament? How strong of tourney results would you need to convince you that your currently held notions about the metagame are inaccurate? Personally I'm pretty far to the side of data trumping theory, but that's just me.
Something I want people to think about is theory vs data, specifically, how far should we take our theoretical notions about a character's ability as a valid argument as opposed to what actually manifests in tournament results? We don't need to have uniform agreement on this, but it is important for each person to be able to justify how much weight they give to each aspect - if not to everyone else then at least to themselves. For example, my current opinion that Falcon > Peach is based mostly on observation of tournament records. Many people have made good points that Peach is in theory a better character. If that's the case, then how far does that argument compensate for (what I perceive to be) CF's general outplacing of Peach in tournament? How strong of tourney results would you need to convince you that your currently held notions about the metagame are inaccurate? Personally I'm pretty far to the side of data trumping theory, but that's just me.
unknown522
Some guy
I am not about to base the matchup off of 1 set, especially where one of the players isn't even the best/top 3 with that character and sucks at the matchup. You do what you want though.
I know that. They're the ones that say that doc *****/is close with falco not me.
once is not a lot.
but we never see characters break free from this control.
sure dawg. Whatever you say.
I guess people don't care enough or something. I personally don't care because of how the format was voted to run on. This list just screams "controversy" for many reasons (though no one seems to care anyway). I'm not in charge of it either, so I wish you the best of luck on it.
What you are in charge of is the MBR. What happened to PM'ing people who haven't contributed? :3
Aldwyn McCloud
Smash Ace
My judgment is that theoretical considerations are slightly more important than tournament results (provided that these consideration still have some sort of direct proof to support them). I think giving too much credit to tournament results would have the Tier List be influenced too much by human habits/errors as a result. For example, if I were to consider only tournament results in making a PAL tier list then Jigglypuff would be mid tier or something like that because nobody really knows how to play her here in EU.
Also, when considering tournament results, priority should go to the Top players'. For example, Armada is the only smash player able to exploit Peach so well. Does this mean Peach is a bad character? I think the answer here should be no, as even only one player doing the right things is enough for me to prove a point. However I can't help but think the whole debate will remain strongly dependent on personal opinions. It could be argued, for example, that Armada's good results depend on him being a very good player and not on Peach being a good character.
Interesting.. I'd like to hear some debate from Shroomed/Mango themselves on this point.
Who's supposed to be top 3? First one is mango for sure but who comes next? If you're counting shiz he lost many times to M2K's Sheik and if you wanna count PP Amsah didn't play him in tournament but handled him quite the same way he did with Zhu in friendlies.
Apart from this, I don't think Amsah's gameplay should be ignored (doesn't include only that set but also the fact he destroys pretty much every single Falco he meets since 07). As I mentioned earlier in my answer to Hyuga I think priority should be given to what the Top players do. It shouldn't be claimed that Falco beats Sheik only because half of the Sheik players don't know how to do it yet. Same can be said about Falco, but once again I haven't seen Top Falco players beat Top Sheik players (I'm speaking mostly of Amsah and M2K) consistently enough to convince me.
Once again, I still hear no logical argument. Also, I typed Lucky VS Zhu on youtube and took a look at the most recent sets. I found UCI Fusion Singles Grand finals on stabbedbyahippie's channel, Tournayplay 5 Second Round Singles Bracket always on stabbedbyahippie's channel and ActiveGamers: Coast2Coast(Day 2) Losers Semis on Waffle's channel. All were sets won by lucky. And then there's that set at Pound4 in which Lucky beat PP. That's already 4 sets. I'm not saying Fox is necessarily better, but I can't help but think it's kind of even if Mango's not involved.
I actually do all the time.
I think Fox vs Falco is even, just a matchup the Fox player will have to learn moreso than the Falco player. It's probably kind of shocking for Fox to see a character that can actually match him. 
Aldwyn McCloud
Smash Ace
^ThisI think Fox vs Falco is even, just a matchup the Fox player will have to learn moreso than the Falco player. It's probably kind of shocking for Fox to see a character that can actually match him.
After 5 years spent playing both of them I 100% agree. Fox is better but the match up is harder to play on his part so it kinda goes back to even.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Jigglypuff ***** Fox because Hungrybox beats Mew2King's Fox.
It's like 70-30 Jigglypuff's favour.
It's like 70-30 Jigglypuff's favour.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I've talked to my fellow comrades and they all say 55-45 Sheik vs Falco, for Sheik. I guess it's just the way Sheik is able to gimp Falco all that well makes the matchup slightly in favor for Sheik? I don't really know myself but.. it's something!
Aldwyn McCloud
Smash Ace
Sheik wins by KOing Falco more easily, but that doesn't necessarily involve gimps. Falco is faster and can combo well but his comboes won't usually result in a stock loss unlike Sheik's (assuming Sheik knows what she's doing). Apart from this, my feeling is that Sheik has got more options and better overall control most of the time. She is more agile and her hitboxes are weird. Her weird hitboxes will sometimes result in Falco breaking through, other times in Sheik outranging and neutralizing everything Falco has. The better the Sheik player is, the more likely to happen the latter is. Many player agree on 55:45 on Sheik's favor. A notable exception is M2k, who claimed 55:45 in Falco's favor on forward's thread.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Amsah said at some point he was trolling when he said Sheik > Falco and felt the matchup might favour Falco if the Falco really knew what he was doing.
I don't know if he changed his mind since though.
I don't know if he changed his mind since though.
Amsah thinks highly of Falco, but he'll have to answer that himself.
Does it even matter if it's 55-45 or 45-55 though? It's pretty much even and fairly stage dependent.
Does it even matter if it's 55-45 or 45-55 though? It's pretty much even and fairly stage dependent.
Aldwyn McCloud
Smash Ace
Speaking of match ups involving Top Tiers they will necessarily end up with a 55-45 outcome most of the time. A different result would mean an almost impossible match up, which is obviously not likely to happen to a Top Tier character. Given the fact that it's not impossible for Sheik to beat Falco and it's not impossible for Falco to beat Sheik it can't be different from 55-45 or 60-40 if you really wanna exaggerate.
I feared this, as I saw Amsah change his mind many times.. However I'm afraid he won't debate, otherwise me and other Falcos would learn his secrets =P
Apart from this, Falco will win if he knows what he's doing, however my feeling is that he needs to work his stuff way harder than Sheik does. Hence I still give the advantage to Sheik, advantage supported by the fact I've seen M2k's sheik only lose once to Zhu and Amsah's Sheik dominating Falcos as consistently.
That's pretty much the way I see it at least. Considering what Falco is theorically capable of, I can understand people claiming Falco should have the advantage, but until some Falco main shows up and manages to beat Top Sheik players consistently, I'm afraid that will keep being super theory bros.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If we're just going to get into a contest of "this good player beat this other good player", I'll simply cite that Mango's Falco ***** Mew2King's Sheik (get that friendlies with Amsah garbage out of here -- friendlies aren't legit at all) and Overtriforce lost to Dr. Peepee, in a matchup that he's supposed to elegantly ****.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Does the weird Falco Downair in Pal version affect Falco's game all that much?
Luma
Smash Lord
not really imo, sure sometimes it can matter, but sometimes the PAL dair can even be more usefull (not that often though)
The big problem i see with PAL Falco's Dair comes from the fact that alot of US players rely on the late hitbox to cover options for Edge Guarding. Not being able to throw out what is essentially a giant spike hitbox wall seems like a big handicap(or maybe an equalizer? **** Falco's spike lol)
Luma
Smash Lord
alot of US players also rely on sheiks dthrow... =P
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well that throw definitely helps with Jab resets and easier tech chases I would think. Also obviously easy follow ups in the air which can lead into devastating combos. How about it in Pal? Is it relatively the same against fastfallers? Or does the downthrow has absolutely no use?
Luma
Smash Lord
well dthrow is still the best throw in PAL, you can still tech chase falcon/fox/falco/sheik and well the difference with the other chars is, no matter what they do in NTSC, they are ****ed, in PAL they are ****ed if they DI wrong
the problem with the NTSC dthrow is that because of this broken **** the sheiks just got used to easy free kills and because of that they never had to think about other options
the problem with the NTSC dthrow is that because of this broken **** the sheiks just got used to easy free kills and because of that they never had to think about other options
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik's d-throw takes a year to finish, if someone bad DIs it in PAL they're probably horrible.
Luma
Smash Lord
well i should add that you are able to do dashattack against certain chars, so sometimes you got the 2 options, eher trying to get to the ground before the sheiks gets you or DI a litle up so you can jump before she gets you
the thing is, if you actually never played PAL nor watched a ****load of PAL sheik videos you shouldnt open your mouth, no offense meant
the thing is, if you actually never played PAL nor watched a ****load of PAL sheik videos you shouldnt open your mouth, no offense meant
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
How does that in any way refute what I'm saying? In either version the throw takes a good, long while to start. This means there is more time to figure out what DI is correct, and more time to input it.
pockyD
Smash Legend
that would only be a "problem" if ntsc wasn't standard
Luma
Smash Lord
@ KK
because other stuff like air recovery etc comes into play, its not only a matter of the right DI
@ pockyD
well i could just say typical american trashtalk, but ever thought about why sheik is so bad over there while actually beeing a better char in your version?
because other stuff like air recovery etc comes into play, its not only a matter of the right DI
@ pockyD
well i could just say typical american trashtalk, but ever thought about why sheik is so bad over there while actually beeing a better char in your version?
pockyD
Smash Legend
what makes you think sheik is bad here?
and how was what i said interpreted as trash talk?
and how was what i said interpreted as trash talk?
Luma
Smash Lord
its doenst make the char bad but the players
ntsc may be standard for you guys, but not for europe and neither for australia
it sounded like you sound those regions didnt matter (or which version they play)
ntsc may be standard for you guys, but not for europe and neither for australia
it sounded like you sound those regions didnt matter (or which version they play)