Tier List Speculation

[Ali Baba 177]

Discuss characters' potentials and how they stack up against the rest of the cast here. There are enough characters in this game that discussion and speculation will never end and a definitive tier list will be impossible.

The attached tier list is a combined ranking of tier lists developed from pros (see current list included below) as well as through popular ranking sites event hubs & ranked boost.

Please keep in mind the tier list averages do not reflect an official tier list. Note; echo fighters and specific pokemon from the trainer were not included.

Last Updated 1/14/19:

• MkLeo (Pro - Tier list from 1/11)
• Jtails (Pro - Tier list from 1/10)
• Leffen (Pro - Tier list averaged from tiers from 12/17 & interpolated chart from 1/9)
• ANTi (Pro - Tier list from 1/4)
• ESAM (Pro - Top 10 from 1/2)
• Zero (Pro - Tier list from 12/23)
• Nairo (Pro - Tier list from 11/21)
• Dabuz (Pro - Tier list from 11/6)
• Marbri (Pro - Tier list from 11/5)
• Abandango (Pro - Tier list from 11/4)
• Reddit (12/28 survey)
• Event Hubs (Current as of 1/14)
• Ranked Boost (Current as of 1/14)

Weighted values for more recently created tier lists. Tier lists from prior to game release are miniscule in value. Reddit tier list is miniscule value. Event Hubs & Ranked Boost are on the lower end of weighted value.

If you have reasoned opinions on how different inputs should be weighted or any suggestions on other tier lists to include, please let me know!

 

[Marmotbro]

Its too early to say anything for sure, that much is obvious. That being said I too have made a tier list, but it is more prediction based and less "here and now". Once people get better at the game and understand this game's flavor of jank we can solidly put characters in tier. This is more of a "I think people are gonna get really good with this character". tiers with similar colors are the same relative strength, but i made distinctions between characters within the tier when i felt it was necessary.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

What major faults do you see in sonic? With his punish ability due to his speed and his capability to do mix up edge guards I can't see him that low.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Its too early to say anything for sure, that much is obvious. That being said I too have made a tier list, but it is more prediction based and less "here and now". Once people get better at the game and understand this game's flavor of jank we can solidly put characters in tier. This is more of a "I think people are gonna get really good with this character". tiers with similar colors are the same relative strength, but i made distinctions between characters within the tier when i felt it was necessary.

I agree that it's way too early, but I have a few questions on your list (I'll make my own this evening).
What makes you think Kirby is undertuned?
What do you see in Simon/Richter and Yoshi?
What lack of power do you see in Palutena/Rosalina?

 

[Marmotbro]

What major faults do you see in sonic? With his punish ability due to his speed and his capability to do mix up edge guards I can't see him that low.

His overall game plan he had in sm4sh has been neutered just because of how ultimate plays.
His specials have the least amount of variation out of anyone in the cast, he has less options to work with.
He has probably the easiest recovery to gimp in the entire game, if you have a meteor sonic is always one good throw from death.
The airdodge changes means he has a rougher time edge guarding then he did.
The way his Homing Attack works in this game puts a little lock-on icon right before he homes in on you, meaning it is much easier to react to with a shield or a better hitbox, as all you need to do is wait until you see it then press shield.
He has no reliable Large Richard kill moves.

What makes you think Kirby is undertuned?
What do you see in Simon/Richter and Yoshi?
What lack of power do you see in Palutena/Rosalina?

Kirby has always been kinda undertuned (at least since melee), and he hasn't been significantly buffed for ultimate. His normals are stubby, he is slow in the air, his recovery is predictable. I think its because massive hero soccer guy thinks copy is a way better ability then it actually is, but that is a discussion for another day. Right now kirbs is just a worse jiggly.

Simon and Richter are absolute walls when played right (fun fact, you can angle your Axe), they can just litter the screen with large moving hitboxes and then whip you when you step out of line. It's hard to contest. Not only that, their recovery isn't as bad as people are saying, the can keep a stock for a long time. They also aren't as bad at super close range as people would say, uptilt, dtilt, nair, dair and dash attack are all very good for getting space back.

Yoshi is gonzo. His recover is really good, Egg Throw is a good projectile, he has and amazing air game (im pretty sure his fair is safe on shield). He just got the Pikachu treatment, but has flown under the radar for some reason. Don't sleep on him.

Palutena is much better then how she was in sm4sh, she was actually one of the ones I had the most trouble deciding where to put her. He has a lot of solid things about her but nothing really stands out to me as being exceptional. She is more of a case of other characters are just better.

Rosa is pretty slow, her juggle game isn't nearly as good, and Luma dies much quicker. Plus her recovery is easy to gimp. other then that she is fine.



IMPORTANT NOTE: I could be completely wrong about all of this. This is just the impressions i get from playing, labbing and reading.

 

[rat.jpg]

Richter and Simon Bellpepper are the most annoying to fight against so I'd rank them in a tier by themselves

 

[Kugelhagelfisch]

Richter and Simon Bellpepper are the most annoying to fight against so I'd rank them in a tier by themselves

I'd petition to put the two Earthbound boys into the same tier. Especially Ness. There's nothing as unfun as dealing with PK Fire.

 

[rat.jpg]

I'd petition to put the two Earthbound boys into the same tier. Especially Ness. There's nothing as unfun as dealing with PK Fire.

True but only in Spirit Battles for me. I can usually shield PK fire and punish them but it is annoying getting trapped in there

 

[Augi]

I think people aren't giving Palutena enough credit. With the strong focus on edge guarding in Ultimate, Palutena's Warp recovery is nothing to shrug off. Though it's not quite as far as Zeldas and deals no damage, it has incredibly low ending/landing lag.

Her own Edge guarding game is pretty good with Auto-reticle, Explosive Flame and the far reaching and extremely long hitbox duration of her Up Smash. There's some other stuff and her throws aren't bad either (backthrow is a beast).

Don't get me wrong, she's no Goddess of Demolition. She has weaknesses and she definitely requires some precision to use, but I think she's certainly viable. She'll especially benefit from time, I think.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I really like Palutena, easy enough to pick up for me, but also offers plenty of depth

I haven't dabbled much with Shulk, but it seems like he has pretty big potential. However, most seem to think he is lower half, anyone have good reasoning to explain his low utility?

 

[Modesty]

Super early but something like this is what I'm feeling. Game overall seems really balanced so it's hard to place a lot of people. Unordered in tiers btw.

 

[R O F L]

This is from my personal experience with the game, but I think people underrate Little Mac, Ridley, Dr. Mario, Climbers, and K. Rool, while I feel like Simon, Meta Knight, and Falco are overrated.

IMO the strongest characters are Pikachu, Chrom, and Olimar.

Weakest are Kirby (Sadly), Bowser Jr., and Lucas.

Note that there are a bunch of characters I haven't fought or have played yet.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I have updated the post to include the updates from Leffen & Zero as well as new Event Hub stats.

Seems as though you are thinking along the same lines ROFL

 

[Armagon]

I haven't dabbled much with Shulk, but it seems like he has pretty big potential. However, most seem to think he is lower half, anyone have good reasoning to explain his low utility?

I'm no expert but i think it's because as of right now, we don't know how much Shulk has improved since Smash 4. Yes, Art Wheel and improved areials are blessing but he's such a technical character. He won't get far unless you really know how to use him. He's defeinitely high tier though.
----------

I gotta agree with you in putting Zelda in "likely viable". I think the worst place she'll end up is somewhere in mid-tier because she defineitly doesn't feel like low or bottom tier material anymore. Phantom is mad scary if used properly, especially as an edgeguard tool. Characters with poor recoveries will get baited into airdodging the Phatom which would basically end up killing. Phantom also has no cooldown if it gets destroyed. Combined with Din's Fire and the Phantom makes for some good pressure. Her lightning kicks also seem easier to land and up throw kills.

From experience, Zelda's worst matchups are against fast rushdown characters like Fox. Characters with reflectors can also be tricky as they can reflect the Phantom (though due to the new changes to it, Zelda has enough time to reflect the Phantom back). But against characters who rely on projectiles (such as the Belmonts) or characters that are slower (K. Rool), she seems to have a much better time.

 

[REZERO]

Im pretty sure Inkling is not extreme potential and is just a dominant character. Inkling is a favorite for higher level players and has good team fight. Peach is another one people are starting to think is really strong.

 

[Crystanium]

Simon Belmont in B tier? That's sufficient enough to laugh at the tier list in the attachment. Give it about a month.

 

[REZERO]

I feel like if any characters are overrated it is the Belmonts, people aren't used to characters that are strong in projectile spam. Note how everyone gets frustrated with K.Rool/Belmonts in this iteration. I imagine they will be dominant in pubs because people don't pick the right stages but in the pro scene they won't be popular picks because of the range their whips cover and how shield destroys their combos.

 

[Marmotbro]

After some more game time and thought I revised my tierlist:

Notes: Characters are somewhat ordered in the tier, but its not a big difference.
Anyone in B tier and above I consider very good. IF you told me one of these characters won a tourney I wouldn't bat an eye.
Inklings are absolutely ridiculous, they build damage like crazy, have a nearly unreadable dash, and at decently high percents have kill confirms off of their ROAD ROLLER which is safe if used properly. They have really good recovery, and are also really fast. Despite all this I find them fun to play against.
Pichu is better then Pikachu in almost every way, but this is only when Pichu is played perfectly. We are more likely to see Pikachus everywhere then Pichu.

 

[Augi]

After some more game time and thought I revised my tierlist:

Notes: Characters are somewhat ordered in the tier, but its not a big difference.
Anyone in B tier and above I consider very good. IF you told me one of these characters won a tourney I wouldn't bat an eye.
Inklings are absolutely ridiculous, they build damage like crazy, have a nearly unreadable dash, and at decently high percents have kill confirms off of their ROAD ROLLER which is safe if used properly. They have really good recovery, and are also really fast. Despite all this I find them fun to play against.
Pichu is better then Pikachu in almost every way, but this is only when Pichu is played perfectly. We are more likely to see Pikachus everywhere then Pichu.

Chrom being top tier is laughable, imo.

Luigi's grab+combo game is insane and he deserves to be higher. Especially with all the other buffs he received.

And while ZSS has lost grab combo's like many others, she benefits from Ultimates engine a great deal, what with the enhanced speed (boy is she quick) and reduced lag and has at least 4 solid kill moves between 80% and 120% (Up+B, Down+B, Side+B, and F-Smash)

Also, DK in that tier? Don't get me wrong, DK is better than he's ever been in a smash game, but I don't think he's that good.

 

[Marmotbro]

Chrom being top tier is laughable, imo.

Laugh all you want. Then go watch him clean up in some higher level play. He is amazing.

Luigi's grab+combo game is insane and he deserves to be higher. Especially with all the other buffs he received.

Yeah but he also now has to tether grab, and he lost his cyclone gimp. Not to mention directional air dodges can get out of some of his combos. I'm just not seeing him as good as he was in sm4sh.

And while ZSS has lost grab combo's like many others, she benefits from Ultimates engine a great deal, what with the enhanced speed (boy is she quick) and reduced lag and has at least 4 solid kill moves between 80% and 120% (Up+B, Down+B, Side+B, and F-Smash)

Yeah, ZSS is good. Everyone in C tier is good. They just aren't as good as the characters above. She has a lot of competition now that everyone moves faster.

Also, DK in that tier? Don't get me wrong, DK is better than he's ever been in a smash game, but I don't think he's that good.

DK has already won a tourney. He is fast, racks up damage, has range on his giant arms, 2 kill throws, one that can be used as early as 70% and some of the best anti-air move in the game. He is sick nasty.

 

[Slimatic]

After some more game time and thought I revised my tierlist:

Notes: Characters are somewhat ordered in the tier, but its not a big difference.
Anyone in B tier and above I consider very good. IF you told me one of these characters won a tourney I wouldn't bat an eye.
Inklings are absolutely ridiculous, they build damage like crazy, have a nearly unreadable dash, and at decently high percents have kill confirms off of their ROAD ROLLER which is safe if used properly. They have really good recovery, and are also really fast. Despite all this I find them fun to play against.
Pichu is better then Pikachu in almost every way, but this is only when Pichu is played perfectly. We are more likely to see Pikachus everywhere then Pichu.

Pretty good list. Link and Luigi being slept on, both A tier. Shiek should be lower, she can't kill.

Duck Hunt is probably better than people think as well.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Just updated the tier list in the post. Now includes Nairos update, updated Event hubs stats, and a new weighted average towards Zero, Leffen, & Nairos updated tier lists.

 

[Tri Knight]

I think a lot of characters are being slept on right now. Too early to tell but there are a few characters I consider too high and a few too low.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Both King Dedede and Kirby are being heavily slept on right now. I've played a lot of Smash, and although it's too early to make final tiers, i can easily say Puff is still pretty bad and she's only better than Little Mac right now (who is the absolute worst).

So here's mine:

 

[Tri Knight]

Both King Dedede and Kirby are being heavily slept on right now. I've played a lot of Smash, and although it's too early to make final tiers, i can easily say Puff is still pretty bad and she's only better than Little Mac right now (who is the absolute worst).

So here's mine:
View attachment 183627

Honestly this is a pretty solid list, but I'm curious about a couple such as Pichu vs Pikachu, Villager vs Isabelle, Incineroar, and Chrom/Roy especially. What are your thoughts on them?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Honestly this is a pretty solid list, but I'm curious about a couple such as Pichu vs Pikachu, Villager vs Isabelle, Incineroar, and Chrom/Roy especially. What are your thoughts on them?

Pichu looks as good as Pikacu but I haven't seen enough footage of it to place it in S or A tier so I'm playing it safe and throwing Pichu in A.

Isabelle's down B and side B are a but more useful than Villager's since she sacrifices stage control for raw killing power and the command grab works on midair opponents too. Her nair is a bit more useful but just like pichu I haven't seen enough villager to make a final decision.

Incineroar has nice killing power but that's just about it. It's too easy to take advantage of his slow movement, bad frame data, poor approach options and bad recovery.

I haven't lost a single game to Roy yet. He suffers the same way he did in Smash 4 and Melee. He has to get super close which makes him easily predictable and he can't approach at all.

Chrom is just awful in my opinion. I get it that he has nice speed and frame data but his approach is even worse than Roy's. You can always tell what he's about to do. But the main thing that kills him for me is his recovery. The only thing worse than it is Little mac and maybe Dr. Mario. Any fighter that can throw a projectile at him, gimp him with an aerial move, etc. just snipes hi recovery with no hope of being saved. I have not lost to Chrom once either.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Updated the tier list in the post to include Seagull Joe's recent tier list as well as updated the data from Event Hubs.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Maybe it is a little early for tier opinions but after considering what every character is capable of and thinking about how well they fit in the developing meta, this is what I came up with:

Some characters are placed higher than I've seem most people place them but several of those characters, I feel, will reach their full potential given time. There are a few placements I feel like I should justify:

• Roy is slightly better than Chrom because if Chrom gets knocked off the stage at 80%, his double jump and high air speed might not be enough to save him but Roy's superior horizontal recovery would most likely allow him to survive this. Roy also does better against close quarters characters due to his sweetspots being close to his sword.
• Squirtle is Sheik but his attacks actually deal damage and he can kill better than her as well.
• Donkey Kong and Snake have different strengths and are equally strong in their own unique ways, however, they both have trouble landing sometimes and they both struggle a bit in the recovery department. They are Top Tiers, but at the back end.
• Getting grabbed by Luigi is a death sentence. At low to mid percents, down throw or up throw will lead to devastating combos. At high percents, back throw kills and either down throw (or up throw depending on percent and character) into down-b will work as well. And while a logical argument would be that he has trouble getting a grab, fireball is a decent projectile that alleviates this issue. The reason he's at the very bottom of top tier is his extremely limited recovery.
• Ken is faster than Ryu who's biggest issue is his slow speed. So even if shoryuken is slightly worse, I'm not sure that matters.
• Dr. Mario is actually a beast onstage and can deal 50-60% damage off of 1 or 2 short combos. He kills early as well and all of his special attacks are very useful in different ways. Sadly, his recovery (while better in comparison to the rest of the cast) is still mediocre at best and he still struggles against rushdown characters. However, I feel like he is better than Mario's because his strengths are more prominent than Mario's, even though Mario has less weaknesses overall.
• Belmonts actually seem to have pretty poor frame data and struggle at close combat because of this and the fact that their whips and projectiles are designed to keep opponents out, not to force them out once they are in. Also their recoveries when not directly next to or directly below the stage are pretty bad.
• Charizard, I feel, is a watered down version of Bowser with a better recovery (or a beefed up version of Ganondorf with a better ground game). He's still high tier though, because of his impressive initial dash and ground speed, along with his recovery, and a decent moveset overall.
• Most of the low mid tiers were either nerfed heavily from Smash 4, don't do well in the engine, or struggle against too many Top and High Tier characters to be any higher.
• Link's frame data sucks and remote bomb (in my opinion) is a nerf because it won't explode when an opponent has it. It also no longer serves as a combo starter and instead functions as more of an edgeguarding option. Another nerf Link received was to his recovery as the removal of his tether makes his recovery predictable.
• Zelda is still Zelda and even though she was buffed, she is still a glass cannon with poor frame data. She could be a mid tier in the future.
• K. Rool is too slow and he struggles in close quarters because of his abysmal frame data. Characters like Duck Hunt, Link, or Villager and other projectile users do not struggle in close quarters as much as K. Rool does, even if they have slow movement speed like Link or Villager. His projectiles are among the best in the game but once an opponent gets a hit on K. Rool, he's dead.

Just remember this is mostly speculation and I'm not a pro so don't take anything too seriously.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I have updated the tier list with more current pro opinions. Very interesting to see how characters have shifted since release, King K. Rool moving down slowly nearly every update, & Palutena moving up slowly every update.

 

[EGsmash]

Here's my take on tiers:

S: Characters that have, always and forever, something that's simply tough to deal with, on top of them being good characters and having a great many good MUs - Inkling's dash is hard to see and read. Snake's explosives are tiny and he can put them everywhere. Pikachu/Pichu are tiny, fast, and constant hitbox jackets. Peach and Daisy have some of the most numerous options in the game for both offensive and defensive play. Link is really just a total package - not only is he fast, but he's a real threat at any range and, like Peach and Daisy he has options for days.

A: These characters are just plain really good. Most of them have very good ranged attacks (which is at a premium in this game), and good edge guards (also at a premium). While each character will be good for their own reasons, and some may have a few situational disadvantages, most of these characters don't seem to have a ton of bad matchups

B: These characters are good. Not great, but good, and are certainly tournament viable. The reason they're in B tier is that they've just got something about them which tends to be exploited more than most - either their hurtbox is a little too big, or they're a little too slow, or their frame data is just a little bit laggy, or their attacks have just a little less range, etc. These characters generally have only a couple of really toxic matchups. Overall these guys are pretty balanced.

C: These characters can be viable, but they've got some serious weaknesses that everyone knows about which can be exploited.

D: These characters may be able to hit hard or pull off some cool stuff, but they're also going to get bodied just as readily. Combo food and Read City.

E: I look forward to fighting these characters, no matter who I'm playing.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I made a new tier list. It's pretty updated and it reflects a lot of my opinions. It doesn't go below D tier since I personally don't think any fighter is unviable. I also think that a lot of fighters are being over/underrated so someone might seem out of place. I've only played against Olimar once so I have little opinios on him, and the Miis for obvious reasons. Feel free to ask any questions.

 

[MG_3989]

Ness belongs higher in almost every one of these tier lists. At this point in the meta he is solidly a high tier character. He’s being slept on hard still even with his stellar tournament results and indirect buffs due to Ultimate’s physics

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Ness belongs higher in almost every one of these tier lists. At this point in the meta he is solidly a high tier character. He’s being slept on hard still even with his stellar tournament results and indirect buffs due to Ultimate’s physics

Unfortunately that's a thing for a lot of fighters. People will make up to half of the scene look bad so their mains look top tier.

 

[MG_3989]

Unfortunately that's a thing for a lot of fighters. People will make up to half of the scene look bad so their mains look top tier.

It’s true. The thing is there are very few Ness mains doing it at the highest level and people tend to view them as outliers rather than people who’ve truly tapped into the characters potential. The good Ness mains are straight up dominant with the character. If he had more representation which I’m strongly hoping and his meta develops more due to more pros playing him he’ll be sitting firmly high tier where he belongs in this game. He’s a good character to pick up right now as well because he really doesn’t have too many bad matchups with the top and high tiers at this point. He actually matches up really well with a lot of the cast. He does have an entry barrier though which might scare some people off. He’s not hard to play at a low mid level but at a high level he’s got a high skill ceiling. Plus he’s very unique and skills with other characters don’t translate to Ness that well

Yeah he can have trouble with swords but he can also body sword characters once he gets advantage. He snowballs fast and he’s a super scary character. Every move he has, has a purpose, even PK Pulse situationally. PKT is one of the best moves in the game and his recovery weakness is overblown. It’s no worse than Cloud’s or Wolf’s or Chrom’s. His kit is just super good and Ultimate’s physics help him a lot. Now we just need more people playing him

 

[Crystanium]

I'm still not sure where Samus would be placed. I'd be comfortable with mid-tier, since she was at least low mid-tier in SSB4. I don't understand why anyone even places Samus and Dark Samus on different tiers or separate from one another. They're virtually the same character.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I'm still not sure where Samus would be placed. I'd be comfortable with mid-tier, since she was at least low mid-tier in SSB4. I don't understand why anyone even places Samus and Dark Samus on different tiers or separate from one another. They're virtually the same character.

I'd say Samus is a solid B or even a B+. She has a lot of good options but the nerfs to her dash attacks and down throw are the only things keeping her from A tier for me.

 

[Crystanium]

I'd say Samus is a solid B or even a B+. She has a lot of good options but the nerfs to her dash attacks and down throw are the only things keeping her from A tier for me.

D-throw still works, and d-throw to dash attack seems to work early on certain characters. D-throw to f-air still works, while ESAM used d-throw to RAR b-air against MVD's Snake several times. Samus can also just skip d-throw altogether and use u-air 2x to screw attack. I suppose I was just being modest about my main. But it's nice to see you think she's B or B+.

 

[Deleted member]

I made a new tier list. It's pretty updated and it reflects a lot of my opinions. It doesn't go below D tier since I personally don't think any fighter is unviable. I also think that a lot of fighters are being over/underrated so someone might seem out of place. I've only played against Olimar once so I have little opinios on him, and the Miis for obvious reasons. Feel free to ask any questions.
View attachment 187555

Chotto matte kudasai... is not even out yet but you have it so high. You must be under the impression that DLC fighters will once again dominate the meta. I get how my girl reigned supreme in the previous game (as well as ), shikashi, are you not over-rating it a little bit? Give it a little more time.

Sayonara

 

[Deleted member]

Chotto matte kudasai... is not even out yet but you have it so high. You must be under the impression that DLC fighters will once again dominate the meta. I get how my girl reigned supreme in the previous game (as well as ), shikashi, are you not over-rating it a little bit? Give it a little more time.

Sayonara

Looks like someone doesn't know what a joke is.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

You know at this point we should probably have an official tier list posting/speculation thread so we can collect data and stuff from across the forum.